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Author Topic: JPaul banned  (Read 4969 times)

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Offline Neil Obstat

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Re: JPaul banned
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2018, 01:14:46 PM »
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  • How many CENTURIES did it take for the Church to settle the debate on the immaculate conception?  Debate started in the 1200s and the dogma was defined in the late 1800s, so that's 600 years.  An orthodox hierarchy/pope does not mean that disputes/agendas will not exist.
    .
    600 years --- during which time most countries had the Feast Day on December 8th, even though it wasn't dogmatically defined yet. A very telling point of history is that Our Lady waited until AFTER the Pope had defined it, before she appeared in Lourdes to tell St. Bernadette, "I am the Immaculate Conception." 
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    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: JPaul banned
    « Reply #16 on: August 20, 2018, 01:21:09 PM »
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  • How many CENTURIES did it take for the Church to settle the debate on the immaculate conception?  Debate started in the 1200s and the dogma was defined in the late 1800s, so that's 600 years.  An orthodox hierarchy/pope does not mean that disputes/agendas will not exist.
    Even St. Peter and St. Paul argued, something about circuмcision, I believe.  There has and will always be "friendly" arguments within the Church even with a Pope.
      
    You mentioned the Immaculate Conception during  the time when  St. Thomas Aquinas one of a few theological opponents;  these debates did not split the Church, and perhaps God wanted those issues they brought up mentioned during that time, however in Gods perfect timing when things might have been getting "hotter" the Good Pope in happier days spoke out.  St. Thomas et al. "Rome has spoken."
    The only thing you hear these days from Rome is heresy instead of your pope coming out to solve any problems he keeps adding fuel to the fire.
    That is not my idea of God's REPRESENTATIVE on earth, in fact, that is an insult to God. 
     
    The fruits of this are what God warned us about, the fruits of your guy are not good.     
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: JPaul banned
    « Reply #17 on: August 20, 2018, 01:24:25 PM »
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    600 years  --- during which time most countries had the Feast Day on December 8th, even though it wasn't dogmatically defined yet.
    Right.  The point is that the debate was over microscopic, theoretical details of the dogma, not the dogma itself. 

    Similar to today, the R&R and sedes argue over the microscopic details of dealing with a bad pope.  Every trad today agrees that we've had bad popes for 50 years.

    In the former example, at the least the debate was among educated and trained theologians.  Nowadays, the debate is among the uneducated and ill-trained, making the effects of such a debate more choatic.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: JPaul banned
    « Reply #18 on: August 20, 2018, 01:31:50 PM »
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  • Quote
    Even St. Peter and St. Paul argued, something about circuмcision, I believe.  There has and will always be "friendly" arguments within the Church even with a Pope.
      
    You mentioned the Immaculate Conception during  the time when  St. Thomas Aquinas one of a few theological opponents;  these debates did not split the Church, and perhaps God wanted those issues they brought up mentioned during that time, however in Gods perfect timing when things might have been getting "hotter" the Good Pope in happier days spoke out.  St. Thomas et al. "Rome has spoken."
    Obviously you are unaware of the violence which notoriously existed between the Dominicans and the Franciscans on the subject of the immaculate conception "friendly debate".  And yes, in some areas, a "split" did happen, after fist-fights and bloody brawls.  And St Paul's correction of St Peter was anything but "friendly", though it was done with charity, these are not the same thing.

    Quote
    The only thing you hear these days from Rome is heresy instead of your pope coming out to solve any problems he keeps adding fuel to the fire.
    That is not my idea of God's REPRESENTATIVE on earth, in fact, that is an insult to God.  The fruits of this are what God warned us about, the fruits of your guy are not good.
    It's ironic that you mention "friendly" debates within the Church and an avoidance of a "split in the Church" when your above comments are divisive, unfriendly and split-causing.  Your dogmatism and obsessiveness over the papal question are a main reason why Trads will never get along.

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: JPaul banned
    « Reply #19 on: August 20, 2018, 02:18:21 PM »
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    It's ironic that you mention "friendly" debates within the Church and an avoidance of a "split in the Church" when your above comments are divisive, unfriendly and split-causing.  Your dogmatism and obsessiveness over the papal question are a main reason why Trads will never get along.
    Okay so now the ad hominem attack ...  fine!
    • (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
      "vicious ad hominem attacks"
    Please pray for my soul.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: JPaul banned
    « Reply #20 on: August 20, 2018, 02:45:35 PM »
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  • Hey Myrna,
    YOU'RE the one who turned this debate into a sede-debate, which your obsessiveness propels you to do.  When YOU use the terms "your pope" or "your guy" and "insult to God" together, YOU are necessarily causing division in tradition because of YOUR dogmatic thinking.

    Secondly, I criticized your position (not you personally), which is the correct method of debating.

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: JPaul banned
    « Reply #21 on: August 20, 2018, 03:03:05 PM »
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  • I merely mentioned the reason that you stated were a consequence of having no True Pontiff.  

    Sorry if I offended you.

    To be truthful, most of the words I said don't even compare to the negative words those loyal to him have called him.  
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/

    Offline rum

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    Re: JPaul banned
    « Reply #22 on: August 20, 2018, 06:01:58 PM »
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  • These two bans have me scratching my head. Telesphorus was invited back, and he was similarly dire about the state of the Church.

    Wessex and JPaul were two members who were good on the Jєωs.
    Some would have people believe that I'm a deceiver because I've used various handles on different Catholic forums. They only know this because I've always offered such information, unprompted. Various troll accounts on FE. Ben on SuscipeDomine. Patches on ABLF 1.0 and TeDeum. GuitarPlucker, Busillis, HatchC, and Rum on Cathinfo.


    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: JPaul banned
    « Reply #23 on: August 20, 2018, 06:39:21 PM »
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    rum: These two bans have me scratching my head. Telesphorus was invited back, and he was similarly
    dire about the state of the Church.

    Me too.  I don't understand the reasoning at all.  Matthew talks about cursing the darkness, and too much negativity and failure to meet certain "Resistance" criteria. It's all gotten pretty much by me.  I can be as negataive as anyone.  What triggered these sudden bannings in short succession? 
    I miss Telesphorus.  There are a few forum turkeys, whom I would be tempted to show the door, but not these guys.

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: JPaul banned
    « Reply #24 on: August 20, 2018, 09:41:53 PM »
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  • 2.  The disarray, in-fighting and chaos CAUSED and PROMOTED BY 95% of trad priests/bishops, who, in the face of no hierarchy, spent their time trying to grow a movement, instead of growing the Faith.
    It's an interesting theory, but can you give some actual examples? Most of the divisions I call to mind are clerics who, on both sides, are trying the keep the Faith as best they know it. (There are exceptions, certainly, but not amounting to 95%.) Can you give an example and how you think the situation should have been played out if the clerics involved were interested only in keeping the Faith?
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: JPaul banned
    « Reply #25 on: August 20, 2018, 10:11:54 PM »
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  • Id say 95% of trad clerics are part of organized groups.  All trad groups

    1) are opposed to each other,
    2) hold different views on the “speculative theology topics of the day” (NFP, BOD, Sedevactism, V2/new mass),
    3) consider all other groups to be in error, and
    4) rarely, if ever, work together, as evidenced by each having their own seminaries, chapels and schools.  

    All of the above facts cause division, promote discord and prohibit the growth of traditionalism.  Most of the blame is on the leadership of the groups, and not on the individual priests, who can’t be blamed for the policies of said group.  The leaders have a responsibility to preach the faith, spread the mass and teach families, not push agendas and grow their membership.  

    Most priests naturally care for the group they belong to and most perform many sacrifices for their flocks, but they will also naturally absorb their group’s mentality and thus, be an agent of division, even if indirectly.  (Americans can’t help but “pick sides” and have a sports-minded “I win, you lose” attitude.  This anti-catholic ideal has permeated American traditionalism unfortunately).  But, again, most of the blame goes to the leadership of these groups (some are more guilty than others).

    If simple priests of these groups were allowed to collaborate, I’ll bet many would.  Why do some cities need 4-5 masses a Sunday (ie Cincinnati, St Mary’s, Post Falls), and each said by a different group, while people in other cities have only 1 mass a month?  There are many examples like this.  If providing the mass/sacraments were the main priority, then groups would work together.  Instead they compete for laity, and for the # of chapels on their websites.  The laity will never get along unless the leaders at the top do so first.  

    We all need to pray for unity.


    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: JPaul banned
    « Reply #26 on: August 20, 2018, 10:33:12 PM »
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  • Id say 95% of trad clerics are part of organized groups.  All trad groups

    1) are opposed to each other,
    2) hold different views on the “speculative theology topics of the day” (NFP, BOD, Sedevactism, V2/new mass),
    3) consider all other groups to be in error, and
    4) rarely, if ever, work together, as evidenced by each having their own seminaries, chapels and schools.  

    All of the above facts cause division, promote discord and prohibit the growth of traditionalism.  Most of the blame is on the leadership of the groups, and not on the individual priests, who can’t be blamed for the policies of said group.  The leaders have a responsibility to preach the faith, spread the mass and teach families, not push agendas and grow their membership.  

    Most priests naturally care for the group they belong to and most perform many sacrifices for their flocks, but they will also naturally absorb their group’s mentality and thus, be an agent of division, even if indirectly.  (Americans can’t help but “pick sides” and have a sports-minded “I win, you lose” attitude.  This anti-catholic ideal has permeated American traditionalism unfortunately).  But, again, most of the blame goes to the leadership of these groups (some are more guilty than others).

    If simple priests of these groups were allowed to collaborate, I’ll bet many would.  Why do some cities need 4-5 masses a Sunday (ie Cincinnati, St Mary’s, Post Falls), and each said by a different group, while people in other cities have only 1 mass a month?  There are many examples like this.  If providing the mass/sacraments were the main priority, then groups would work together.  Instead they compete for laity, and for the # of chapels on their websites.  The laity will never get along unless the leaders at the top do so first.  

    We all need to pray for unity.
    I understand what you're saying, but I don't understand how this is avoidable. What Catholic doesn't believe that Truth is one and error is many? Most of us believe certain errors to be understandable given the Crisis, but still think they're errors and don't wish to "promote" them, only to "tolerate" those who hold to these errors given the unusual state of the Church. Sure, I can befriend someone who holds such "tolerable" error, but should a cleric work with another cleric whom they believe to be teaching error?
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: JPaul banned
    « Reply #27 on: August 20, 2018, 11:30:56 PM »
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  • .
    I recall a time, before, during and after Vat.II, when Catholics had just one question about a seminary:
    .
    Is it a diocesan seminary or a religious order's seminary?
    .
    I recall Catholics, especially men but some women too, very concerned about the answer.
    .
    They believed it was a matter of dire concern for anyone entering a seminary to be totally sure they were choosing correctly.
    .
    This concern over diocese/order had nothing to do with heresy.
    .
    Catholics were not worried that diocese seminaries were teaching heresy or certain Orders were teaching heresy.
    .
    Actually, come to think of it, I believe they would have been scandalized by any mention of a seminary teaching heresy.
    .
    For in the perception of everyday Catholics of that time, seminaries were the bastion of purity regarding dogma.
    .
    But nonetheless, the distinction between dioceses and religious orders regarding seminaries was a big concern for Catholics.
     
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: JPaul banned
    « Reply #28 on: August 20, 2018, 11:32:05 PM »
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  • We all need to pray for unity.
    .
    Here, here!
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: JPaul banned
    « Reply #29 on: August 20, 2018, 11:44:33 PM »
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  • The problem is, as always, pride.  100% of trad clerics (bishops included) are NOT trained theologians, and EVERY major disagreement is over some theological gray area, that, over time, was made into a mountain, when in reality, it is a molehill.  

    Early traditionalism in the 60s/70s was more concerned with staying alive and avoiding spiritual starvation, so disagreements over the menu didn’t happen.  Now that Trads are “fat and happy” with many priests and masses, we have time to argue about what should be served for dessert.  

    These arguments ARE avoidable if clerics would keep the Faith as the priority, if they would put aside their theological ambitions and if they would focus on devotions over explaining the minute details of dogma, then there would be peace because charity and love of God would be the goal instead of  “being right” or being educated on a certain topic.  

    IF I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.  2And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.  3And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.