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Traditional Catholic Faith => Computers, Technology, Websites => Topic started by: Matthew on May 24, 2018, 12:51:08 PM

Title: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Matthew on May 24, 2018, 12:51:08 PM
The ironically named "Truth is Eternal" got all angry and upset, and wouldn't take correction for his material heresy.

He believes that 100% of the Mosaic Law is still binding on Catholics today. This is a clear cut heresy, so it is not tolerated on a Traditional Catholic forum.

He also de-facto believes in private interpretation of Scripture, even when those interpretations go against Catholic Church teaching. That is Protestantism!

He needs prayers.

As a reminder, CathInfo only allows debate on DISPUTED topics. Anything defined by the Church is off-limits. You either assent to it, or get banned as a pertinacious material heretic. (We can't condemn anyone as a formal heretic, none of us has the authority). But you can stubbornly cling to a material heresy -- and such persons are not welcome on CathInfo.

For the good of his soul, I have not IP-banned him from the forum, so he can still read the posts on CathInfo.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: JezusDeKoning on May 24, 2018, 12:53:53 PM
Thank you!
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Banezian on May 24, 2018, 01:42:25 PM
The ironically named "Truth is Eternal" got all angry and upset, and wouldn't take correction for his material heresy.

He believes that 100% of the Mosaic Law is still binding on Catholics today. This is a clear cut heresy, so it is not tolerated on a Traditional Catholic forum.

He also de-facto believes in private interpretation of Scripture, even when those interpretations go against Catholic Church teaching. That is Protestantism!

He needs prayers.

As a reminder, CathInfo only allows debate on DISPUTED topics. Anything defined by the Church is off-limits. You either assent to it, or get banned as a pertinacious material heretic. (We can't condemn anyone as a formal heretic, none of us has the authority). But you can stubbornly cling to a material heresy -- and such persons are not welcome on CathInfo.

For the good of his soul, I have not IP-banned him from the forum, so he can still read the posts on CathInfo.
You're 100% right in saying this is Protestant. It's called Theonomy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theonomy
I have some Calvinist friends who believe this. Fortunately, St. Paul condemns this idea in Galatians 2:21
"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousnesswere through the law, then Christ died for no purpose"

Sadly, the kind of thinking that got this guy banned is becoming rampant in Catholic circles today. I used to attend an FSSP parish, and the priest there said that the Old Covenant might still be valid( I guess he's never read Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, or Hebrews) That's when I left the parish an joined the SSPX.  
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Meg on May 24, 2018, 02:06:04 PM
I don't think that TiE really sees it as "Judaizing."

He never really quoted anything from Judaism, or looked at it from that POV. He just seemed to see the word of God in Sacred Scripture, and took it to mean that God said something important, and we should pay attention. It's others here who have accused him of "Judaizing." I can't see that TiE is in any way Jєωιѕн or has any affinity for Judaism. He does, however, have an affinity for Sacred Scripture, whether it's the OT or NT. 
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Matthew on May 24, 2018, 02:16:04 PM
It's others here who have accused him of "Judaizing." I can't see that TiE is in any way Jєωιѕн or has any affinity for Judaism. He does, however, have an affinity for Sacred Scripture, whether it's the OT or NT.

I don't care if you like it or not, or if Truth Is Eternal was a major Flat Earth proponent. Facts are facts. Insisting that Catholics follow Jєωιѕн laws, or placing the Jєωs on a higher pedestal than the rest of the (unclean, Gentile?) Catholics is the textbook definition of Judaizing.

And you can't dismiss his heresy as, "he has an affinity for Sacred Scripture". So do I. I love Scripture and revere it as the Word of God. However, I am a Catholic so I look to Tradition -- the Catholic Church -- for the TRUE interpretation of what I read there. For me, a Catholic, Scripture is only one of the two pillars of the Faith. And even then, it only contributes to the body of doctrine (the Catholic Faith) what the Catholic Church says it does.

Are we going to praise ALL Protestant HERETICS for their "love of Holy Scripture"?  Of course not! They are heretics who don't possess the truth, and often persecute the True Church. Their so-called love of the Bible won't save them.

If a man takes a bomb and blows up a bunch of atheists or protestants, can you dismiss it as, "Well, he is zealous for the Catholic Faith"? No, he's a maniac who certainly needs the Death Penalty for committing mass murder.

Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Banezian on May 24, 2018, 02:31:53 PM
I don't care if you like it or not, or if Truth Is Eternal was a major Flat Earth proponent. Facts are facts. Insisting that Catholics follow Jєωιѕн laws, or placing the Jєωs on a higher pedestal than the rest of the (unclean, Gentile?) Catholics is the textbook definition of Judaizing.

And you can't dismiss his heresy as, "he has an affinity for Sacred Scripture". So do I. I love Scripture and revere it as the Word of God. However, I am a Catholic so I look to Tradition -- the Catholic Church -- for the TRUE interpretation of what I read there. For me, a Catholic, Scripture is only one of the two pillars of the Faith. And even then, it only contributes to the body of doctrine (the Catholic Faith) what the Catholic Church says it does.

Are we going to praise ALL Protestant HERETICS for their "love of Holy Scripture"?  Of course not! They are heretics who don't possess the truth, and often persecute the True Church. Their so-called love of the Bible won't save them.

If a man takes a bomb and blows up a bunch of atheists or protestants, can you dismiss it as, "Well, he is zealous for the Catholic Faith"? No, he's a maniac who certainly needs the Death Penalty for committing mass murder.
While the right to interpret Scripture belongs to the Church, Scripture is the highest authority/source on doctrine 
St. Thomas on Scripture

“Sacred doctrine makes use of these authorities as extrinsic and probable arguments; but properly uses the authority of the canonical Scriptures as an incontrovertible proof, and the authority of the doctors of the Church as one that may properly be used, yet merely as probable. For our faith rests upon the revelation made to the apostlesand prophets who wrote the canonical books, and not on the revelations (if any such there are) made to other doctors. Hence Augustine says (Epis. ad Hieron. xix, 1): "Only those books of Scripturewhich are called canonical have I learned to hold in such honor as to believe their authors have not erred in any way in writing them. But other authors I so read as not to deem everything in their works to be true, merely on account of their having so thought and written, whatever may have been their holinessand learning"
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: aryzia on May 24, 2018, 02:33:37 PM
If TIE believes Catholics are bound by the Mosaic law (not just the 10 commandments) he is definitely in the wrong because that is a serious heresy.  Council of Florence is clear.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Meg on May 24, 2018, 02:35:54 PM
If TIE believes Catholics are bound by the Mosaic law (not just the 10 commandments) he is definitely in the wrong because that is a serious heresy.  Council of Florence is clear.

I don't recall that he ever said anything about Mosaic law. Or that Catholics are bound to it. 
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Matthew on May 24, 2018, 02:51:44 PM
I deleted his heresy. I don't want to confuse future readers. CathInfo is a popular, high traffic forum.

TiE clearly said that God forbid us to eat unclean animals. That's the Mosaic Law. You can argue semantics all you want for your Flat Earth buddy -- but I'm not going to allow a clear-cut material heretic to run loose on CathInfo.

Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: happenby on May 24, 2018, 02:52:33 PM
Never mind, I found it.  Its true the Council of Florence condemned the Mosaic Law:

It firmly believes, professes, and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally. Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation. All, therefore, who after that time observe circuмcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors. Therefore, it commands all who glory in the name of Christian, at whatever time, before or after baptism, to cease entirely from circuмcision, since, whether or not one places hope in it, it cannot be observed at all without the loss of eternal salvation.


This is a matter of salvation. The Jєωιѕн Mosaic law is forbidden for Catholics. From the seders, to the food restrictions to circuмcision. 
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Meg on May 24, 2018, 03:06:25 PM
Never mind, I found it.  Its true the Council of Florence condemned the Mosaic Law:

It firmly believes, professes, and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally. Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation. All, therefore, who after that time observe circuмcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors. Therefore, it commands all who glory in the name of Christian, at whatever time, before or after baptism, to cease entirely from circuмcision, since, whether or not one places hope in it, it cannot be observed at all without the loss of eternal salvation.


This is a matter of salvation. The Jєωιѕн Mosaic law is forbidden for Catholics. From the seders, to the food restrictions to circuмcision.

Okay, but where does the above quote from the Council of Florence refer to food restrictions? The above quote describes circuмcision, of course. And it also mentions the matter pertaining to Mosaic law being divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments. But I don't see anything about food.

I suppose it could fall under the category of "other requirements" mentioned also above, but it doesn't say what those other requirements are. 
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: TKGS on May 24, 2018, 03:10:34 PM
Now, if you would only ban Meg... ;D
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Banezian on May 24, 2018, 03:11:01 PM
Okay, but where does the above quote from the Council of Florence refer to food restrictions? The above quote describes circuмcision, of course. And it also mentions the matter pertaining to Mosaic law being divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments. But I don't see anything about food.
St. Paul says the food restrictions are now meaningless 
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Meg on May 24, 2018, 03:13:29 PM
Now, if you would only ban Meg... ;D

I'm sure there are quite a few here that would agree with you on that. 
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: happenby on May 24, 2018, 03:13:43 PM
Okay, but where does the above quote from the Council of Florence refer to food restrictions? The above quote describes circuмcision, of course. And it also mentions the matter pertaining to Mosaic law being divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments. But I don't see anything about food.

I suppose it could fall under the category of "other requirements" mentioned also above, but it doesn't say what those other requirements are.
The teaching of Florence is based on many things as the Fathers have expounded on it to say the whole Jєωιѕн law is defunct.  But Scripture cuts to the chase for us.  
Acts 10:9-16 
Peter’s Vision
About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”
15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”
16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Meg on May 24, 2018, 03:14:28 PM
St. Paul says the food restrictions are now meaningless

Where does he say it? That's definitely helpful.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Meg on May 24, 2018, 03:19:28 PM
The teaching of Florence is based on many things as the Fathers have expounded on it to say the whole Jєωιѕн law is defunct.  But Scripture cuts to the chase for us.  
Acts 10:9-16
Peter’s Vision
9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”
15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”
16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

Yes, I know about the above quote, but a bit farther in Scripture it is said that Peter realized that the vision meant that he wasn't to dismiss other people, such as Gentiles, for being unclean. Even though the vision had animals in it, it was referring to humans. I can't really understand why a vision about animals would really mean humans (it doesn't make a lot of sense), but that appears to be the case.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: happenby on May 24, 2018, 03:23:18 PM
Yes, I know about the above quote, but a bit farther in Scripture it is said that Peter realized that the vision meant that he wasn't to dismiss other people, such as Gentiles, for being unclean. Even though the vision had animals in it, it was referring to humans. I can't really understand why a vision about animals would really mean humans (it doesn't really make a lot of sense), but that appears to be the case.
Its the same principle and applies to animals and men insofar as the Mosaic Law is concerned.  The passage spoke of animals included in the Mosaic Law. The problem with Peter is that he respected only those who were circuмcised out of respect and fear of the Jєωs--more Jєωιѕн law.  Paul resisted him to his face because, as Scripture said, "he was to be blamed".  
Circuмcision belonged to the old law and was no longer applicable since it was replaced by Baptism.  What Paul objected to was identical to what Peter was shown in the scroll.  The Mosaic Law ceased.  
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Meg on May 24, 2018, 03:28:44 PM
Its the same principle and applies to animals and men insofar as the Mosaic Law is concerned.  The passage spoke of animals included in the Mosaic Law. The problem with Peter is that he respected only those who were circuмcised out of respect and fear of the Jєωs--more Jєωιѕн law.  Paul resisted him to his face because, as Scripture said, "he was to be blamed".  
Circuмcision belonged to the old law and was no longer applicable since it was replaced by Baptism.  What Paul objected to was identical to what Peter was shown in the scroll.  The Mosaic Law ceased.  

I suppose you are right. Everything about the old law has ceased. I appreciate that you have been charitable in explaining it. Unlike you-know-who (she who must be obeyed). 
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Banezian on May 24, 2018, 03:30:42 PM
Where does he say it? That's definitely helpful.
1 Corinthians 8:7-9
"However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, eat food as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do."

And
1 Cor 9:19-21
 "For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them.  To the Jєωs I became as a Jєω, in order to win Jєωs. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law"

He is saying that he is not under the law. 
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: happenby on May 24, 2018, 03:39:48 PM
Paul understood that the Old Law had ceased.  The Old Covenant is out.  The new law of love is the New Covenant and is binding.  Practicing the Old Law is damnable according to the Council of Florence since it was tolerated at first, if no one placed faith in it, but then it was abolished and makes one practicing it in any of its forms, anathema.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Matthew on May 24, 2018, 03:41:38 PM
Promoting or practicing the Mosaic Law today makes vain the Cross of Christ, which alone has any saving or propitiatory power (power to forgive sins).

It's not a small heresy!
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Meg on May 24, 2018, 03:42:55 PM
Paul understood that the Old Law had ceased.  The Old Covenant is out.  The new law of love is the New Covenant and is binding.  Practicing the Old Law is damnable according to the Council of Florence since it was tolerated at first, if no one placed faith in it, but then it was abolished and makes one practicing it in any of its forms, anathema.

Okay, I understand it now. Thanks.

Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Matthew on May 24, 2018, 04:19:48 PM
Ladies, please take your cat-fight outside. Thanks.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: TKGS on May 24, 2018, 05:29:28 PM
At the Apostolic Council of Jerusalem, the Apostles declared that the only dietary rule that the Christian converts from paganism had to follow was to "that they refrain themselves from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood." (Acts 15:20)  I've read that the many pagans of the time strangled their sacrificial victims so strangled animals were almost always pagan sacrifices.
Title: Chow down!/Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: AlligatorDicax on May 24, 2018, 06:18:06 PM
[....]
Acts 10:9-16
[....]
13  Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
14  “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”
15  The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”

Oh!  Butter-sauteed abalone!  Crispy bacon!   Fried catfish!  Steamed Dungeness crabCrawfish boils!  Seafood gumbo!  "Boiled"[×] lobsters!  Raw oysters![†]  Pulled porkShrimp & grits!  Uni!  Yaaay!

-------
Note ×: The classic book Joy of Cooking (1973 paperback) fussily insists that in this instance, the cooking method is technically not "boiling" but poaching.
 
Note †: Harvested with appropriate caution, heeding any quarantines by  health officials that might be in effect at the time; customary rules invoking the presence or absence of 'R' in the name of a month are dangerously inadequate.
Title: Re: Chow down!/Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: happenby on May 24, 2018, 07:26:19 PM
Oh!  Butter-sauteed abalone!  Crispy bacon!   Fried catfish!  Steamed Dungeness crab!  Crawfish boils!  Seafood gumbo!  "Boiled"[×] lobsters!  Raw oysters![†]  Pulled pork!  Shrimp & grits!  Uni!  Yaaay!

-------
Note ×: The classic book Joy of Cooking (1973 paperback) fussily insists that in this instance, the cooking method is technically not "boiling" but poaching.
 
Note †: Harvested with appropriate caution, heeding any quarantines by  health officials that might be in effect at the time; customary rules invoking the presence or absence of 'R' in the name of a month are dangerously inadequate.
Yum! Not to mention the entire week is a feast for Pentecost.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Centroamerica on May 24, 2018, 09:11:56 PM
The dogmatic canons of the Council of Trent regarding baptism or the desire thereof have long been declared "disputed topics" here at Cath Info and the fruits of such was the support given to the Kentuckian feenyite chapel.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Neil Obstat on May 25, 2018, 01:31:44 AM
.
Just for the record,  here (https://www.cathinfo.com/health-and-nutrition/grass-fed-ruminants-that-chew-the-cud-but-divide-not-the-hoof-are-clean/msg610944/#msg610944) is the thread where the offending post(s) was/were removed. 
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Neil Obstat on May 25, 2018, 01:38:44 AM
“Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
.
"Kill and eat." It's a commandment of Scripture. Motto of hunters. Anathema of environmentalists and Liberals...



.... And perhaps to some degree of flat-earthers?
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: RoughAshlar on May 25, 2018, 05:54:51 AM
Leviticus 11:46-47
[46] You shall be holy, because I am holy. This is the law of beasts and fowls, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and creepeth on the earth: [47] That you may know the differences of the clean, and unclean, and know what you ought to eat, and what to refuse.
Did you not read the replies to this topic in the thread.  You are making it go backwards for no reason.  TL:DR read Acts 10:9-16  and 1 Corinthians 8:7-9.  The Church has already ruled on old Law.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Mega-fin on May 25, 2018, 06:10:41 AM
Now we can finally eat our pork chops and bacon in peace! May all those pretty piggies end up on my plate!
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: TKGS on May 25, 2018, 06:11:31 AM
I see that TiE has rejoined the forum as Martyr.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: JezusDeKoning on May 25, 2018, 06:37:57 AM
I see that TiE has rejoined the forum as Martyr.
Yep. Matthew, banning the IP address might not be a bad idea.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Ladislaus on May 25, 2018, 08:05:01 AM
Promoting or practicing the Mosaic Law today makes vain the Cross of Christ, which alone has any saving or propitiatory power (power to forgive sins).

It's not a small heresy!

It also happens to be the very first major heresy in the Church.  You kept characterizing his view as material heresy.  I would say more that it's objectively heretical.  I know what you're trying to say, but using the term material actually precludes the possibility that it's formal (they're opposite terms).

And formal heresy does not equate to "sincerity", something in the internal forum that cannot be judged publicly.  If it has become manifest that someone is pertinacious in the belief, and persists in it after it has been shown to him that the Church has condemned it, then it can be judged in the external forum to be formal heresy.  Heresy goes from material into formal as soon as one even implicitly rejects the authority of the Church behind the teaching, since the authority of the Church teaching is the formal motive of faith (that's the argument I was having with Drew on the other thread).  That's the reason for the saying that if you reject one dogma, you reject them all.  That's because in rejecting one of them you are rejecting the teaching authority that's behind them all, and whatever ones you do still believe, you are not longer believing with the formal motive of faith, the authority of the Church, but just because you have found them agreeable based on your own private judgment.

This transmogrification of the term "formal heresy" into insincerity is yet another product of the phenomenological subjectivism that Bishop Williamson has always rightly railed against.  I can be as sincere as anyone can be, but if I do not believe the dogmas of the Church based on the teaching authority of the Church, I am a formal heretic.  Material heresy can only be due to ignorance regarding what the Church teaches (cf. Saint Augustine).  And the outward sign, again according to St. Augustine, of heresy being only material is the immediate willingness to change one's mind after being corrected and the ignorance of what the Church teaches has been removed.  Now, it's more complex with truths that have not been directly defined, because one might BELIEVE that his propositions (logical conclusions drawn from defined truths) are consistent with Church dogma, and hold to them based on this assessment.  Someone else might then come along and dispute it, arguing that it does in fact contradict Church teaching.  So the dispute there is about whether the argument is sound.  If the person drawing the false conclusions were corrected by proper authority, who could definitively rule against his opinion, he would show that the heresy or error was only material by willingly retracting his prior opinion.  Problem is that when it's a dispute among peers, the person holding the opinion might conclude that the rebuttals are wrong without necessarily compromising their willingness to yield to the Church.

That's why the V2 errors are more slippery.  Papal claimants prior to Francis claimed that these teachings WERE in conformity to Tradition and felt that they could be reconciled to the past with a "hermeneutic of continuity".  That suggests that they care about whether these propositions are reconcilable with Tradition.  Bergoglio on the other hand has made statements about how what he's saying is probably heresy, but then went on as if he didn't care.

So, in short, the difference between formal and material heresy is that material heresy pertains to WHAT you believe, while formal heresy speaks to WHY you believe it.  Now, some truths are necessary to believe even materially, so that there cannot be supernatural faith without believing in those things ... usually that God exists and is a Rewarder along with basic belief in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation.  Without those basic things, as St. Thomas teaches, there can be no supernatural faith, not faith with the supernatural motive.  You can't have form without some matter in this case.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Ladislaus on May 25, 2018, 12:26:03 PM
So the next joke --

Truth is Eternal has become a globe earth believer.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Last Tradhican on May 25, 2018, 12:56:23 PM
Truth is Eternal
Lover of Truth

Looks like persons calling themselves truth is a warning flag.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Matthew on May 26, 2018, 10:07:18 AM
Since his ban from CathInfo, the hapless heretic with the ironic name "Truth is Eternal" has found a new outlet for his apostolic zeal: trolling the CathInfo forum.

He keeps signing up for new accounts, which I quickly ban. He did this until around midnight last night, and started up again as soon as he woke up this morning around 8 AM.

Pathetic! Talk about a classic case of "Get a life!"

TiE, your trolling efforts aren't going to get anywhere. You're only wasting your time. It is so easy to ban and IP ban someone with the current CathInfo software. You're fighting a losing battle and making yourself look like a 3 year old child at the same time.

TiE is acting like a misbehaved brat throwing a temper tantrum. I should point out that he is also one of the most fervent Flat Earth supporters.

Flat Earth supporters: I suggest you write to TiE if you have his contact info, and talk some sense into him. Because in the eyes of most people, his behavior DOES reflect on your whole position. It's a shame that's how it is, but I believe that such is the truth. It's simply how human nature works.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Meg on May 26, 2018, 11:06:33 AM
If I had TiE's contact info, then I would write to him and ask him to stop signing up for new accounts. But I don't have his contact info.

If the flat earth is forever tainted by TiE's error, then I suppose there's no use in debating the subject any longer (for me). One flat earther goes ballistic, and that means that the earth isn't flat. Hum....

On the other hand, I've noticed sedevacantists who have exhibited similar behavior, and they have been banned, but it doesn't seem to forever taint sedevacantism. What's up with that?
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Matthew on May 26, 2018, 11:15:04 AM
If I had TiE's contact info, then I would write to him and ask him to stop signing up for new accounts. But I don't have his contact info.

If the flat earth is forever tainted by TiE's error, then I suppose there's no use in debating the subject any longer (for me). One flat earther goes ballistic, and that means that the earth isn't flat. Hum....

On the other hand, I've noticed sedevacantists who have exhibited similar behavior, and they have been banned, but it doesn't seem to forever taint sedevacantism. What's up with that?

First of all, you're wrong about sedevacantism. It goes for them as well. Lots of people won't touch the sedevac position with a 100-foot pole because of their experiences with not one or two, but dozens of SedevacantISTS -- the individuals holding that position.

I'm not threatening you or speaking for myself personally. I'm reminding you (and all the other Flat Earth proponents) how human nature works. If human nature says that you have an uphill battle when some of "your own" do something stupid, then that's unfortunate but it has nothing to do with me.

I could be as nice as possible, giving all of you the benefit of the doubt and even embracing Flat Earth myself -- but that wouldn't change the fact that most people will LIVE, BELIEVE, and ACT based on the "bad taste in their mouth" from individuals in your camp (being obsessive, rude, misbehaved on forums, etc.)

When you have any position, especially an unpopular one like Flat Earth (just stating a fact here), and a few idiots attach themselves to the position and then do something stupid (whether it's minor like spamming up a forum, or major like setting off bombs and killing people) it tends to taint the public's general impression of that position.

It is not REASON that causes a person to look at an individual and draw conclusions about his whole group. It is emotion. But what if a huge % of the public primarily operates on emotion? As a matter of fact, at least half of them do. Just look at the last US presidential election.

So it is a fact that more people operate on EMOTION than REASON, here in 2018. Even among men, sadly. (Normally it's women who are more emotional.)

Again, I'm just reminding you of this fact, as a courtesy.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Meg on May 26, 2018, 11:34:53 AM
I'm not threatening you or speaking for myself personally. I'm reminding you (and all the other Flat Earth proponents) how human nature works. If human nature says that you have an uphill battle when some of "your own" do something stupid, then that's unfortunate but it has nothing to do with me.

I could be as nice as possible, giving all of you the benefit of the doubt and even embracing Flat Earth myself -- but that wouldn't change the fact that most people will LIVE, BELIEVE, and ACT based on the "bad taste in their mouth" from individuals in your camp (being obsessive, rude, misbehaved on forums, etc.)

When you have any position, especially an unpopular one like Flat Earth (just stating a fact here), and a few idiots attach themselves to the position and then do something stupid (whether it's minor like spamming up a forum, or major like setting off bombs and killing people) it tends to taint the public's general impression of that position.

Okay, I see what you mean. I know that you're not threatening me personally, and I appreciate that you've been patient with me even though I can be a trouble-maker (I'll try to change that).

It does have to do with emotion, I agree. Maybe if TiE hadn't become so angry after his thread was locked, he wouldn't have been banned. Flat earthers do have the tendency to be emotional.

And yes, you're right about the same thing going for sedevacantism, but they do seem have more "rights" here, if it can be called that. It seems to be far more acceptable, but that's okay. But still, I can see now that it was a good idea to not have flat earth threads show up on the main forum page. It is a contentious subject, which cause too strong a reaction from both sides.

I don't see how we can now have any debates on the flat earth subforum now. It seems that those who are against it will not let us debate it.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Ladislaus on May 26, 2018, 11:51:03 AM
TiE, your trolling efforts aren't going to get anywhere. You're only wasting your time. It is so easy to ban and IP ban someone with the current CathInfo software. You're fighting a losing battle and making yourself look like a 3 year old child at the same time.

TiE is acting like a misbehaved brat throwing a temper tantrum. I should point out that he is also one of the most fervent Flat Earth supporters.

Flat Earth supporters: I suggest you write to TiE if you have his contact info, and talk some sense into him. Because in the eyes of most people, his behavior DOES reflect on your whole position. It's a shame that's how it is, but I believe that such is the truth. It's simply how human nature works.

Well, if someone is clever, it's not hard to get around IP bans.

I literally (ha ha), at one point, even though I'm sympathetic to the Flat Earth argument (they have many good points), suggested that the Flat Earthers should repudiate TiE in order not to lose all credibility.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Ladislaus on May 26, 2018, 11:57:19 AM
And yes, you're right about the same thing going for sedevacantism, but they do seem have more "rights" here, if it can be called that.

Not so.  Matthew locked the Father Ringrose thread, deleted many of my posts, and asked me to refrain from being hostile to R&R.  So Matthew is not singling out Flat Earth by any means.  Even though I don't always agree with him on particular issues, Matthew tends to be consistent in his approach.  He could have banned Flat Earth entirely, as many forum mods would have, but I appreciate the fact that he hasn't.  I respect him for that.  And if he hasn't banned sedevacantism, it's for the same (consistent) reasons.  Matthew has shut down and banned dogmatic sedevacantists, but he also called out SeanJohnson as a dogmatic [mod edit: sedeplenist].  Flat Earth got sidelined because 95% of the "Recent Thread" list ended up being Flat Earth threads.  I did feel that, if it was technically possible, there should have been a limit imposed of one thread relating to Flat Earth in the Recent list ... because I do find the issue to be of great interest.  I enjoy and am open to all manner of subjects.  I didn't become a geocentrist until I started getting involved with various threads here.  And many forums would have banned the subject.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: 2Vermont on May 26, 2018, 12:26:02 PM
Ladislaus:  Matthew has shut down and banned dogmatic sedevacantists, but he also called out SeanJohnson as a dogmatic [mod edit: sedeplenist]


But dogmatic sedeplenists never get banned.  So, no, not totally consistent.  I'll agree with you when I see that happen.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Ladislaus on May 26, 2018, 12:28:43 PM
Not so.  Matthew locked the Father Ringrose thread, deleted many of my posts, and asked me to refrain from being hostile to R&R.  So Matthew is not singling out Flat Earth by any means.  Even though I don't always agree with him on particular issues, Matthew tends to be consistent in his approach.  He could have banned Flat Earth entirely, as many forum mods would have, but I appreciate the fact that he hasn't.  I respect him for that.  And if he hasn't banned sedevacantism, it's for the same (consistent) reasons.  Matthew has shut down and banned dogmatic sedevacantists, but he also called out SeanJohnson as a dogmatic [mod edit: sedeplenist].  Flat Earth got sidelined because 95% of the "Recent Thread" list ended up being Flat Earth threads.  I did feel that, if it was technically possible, there should have been a limit imposed of one thread relating to Flat Earth in the Recent list ... because I do find the issue to be of great interest.  I enjoy and am open to all manner of subjects.  I didn't become a geocentrist until I started getting involved with various threads here.  And many forums would have banned the subject.

Did I make a typo?
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Matthew on May 26, 2018, 12:34:53 PM
Did I make a typo?

You made a word-o.
You said "dogmatic R&R" but I never said that. I referred to Sean as "dogmatic sedeplenist" which is actually more accurate.
I'm a stickler for accuracy.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Ladislaus on May 26, 2018, 12:43:12 PM
You made a word-o.
You said "dogmatic R&R" but I never said that. I referred to Sean as "dogmatic sedeplenist" which is actually more accurate.
I'm a stickler for accuracy.

That's right, you did use the word sedeplenist.  I used the word R&R because that's what he is, since there are dogmatic Novus Ordo sedeplenists too.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Jaynek on May 26, 2018, 12:51:58 PM
I don't see how we can now have any debates on the flat earth subforum now. It seems that those who are against it will not let us debate it.
How are we stopping you?  You (and others) label as trolls those people who are prepared to debate with you.  The flat-earthers encourage each other to ignore the people who are against it.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: 2Vermont on May 26, 2018, 12:53:12 PM
That's right, you did use the word sedeplenist.  I used the word R&R because that's what he is, since there are dogmatic Novus Ordo sedeplenists too.
Who would be an example of dogmatic NO sedeplenist? I always equated sedeplenism with R&R, but maybe I am wrong.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Matthew on May 26, 2018, 01:27:31 PM
Who would be an example of dogmatic NO sedeplenist? I always equated sedeplenism with R&R, but maybe I am wrong.

There is a difference and a nuance, but I don't care to get into a long explanation right now.

Suffice to say: there are dogmatic sedevacantists, who consider non-sedevacantists to be in need of conversion, the Catholic Faith, etc. On CathInfo at least, the phrase has been well-defined, explained many times, and has entered common speech.

So it's simple to contrast that with "dogmatic sedeplenists" who are exactly the same, only about the statement "the Seat is full" instead of "the Seat is empty".

And that's precisely what Sean said ("I would ban every one who does not hold Francis is the Pope plain and simple."), so it's simplest and safest to conclude he is a Dogmatic Sedeplenist.

Saying he's dogmatic R&R would be guessing or going out on a limb. Perhaps a solid limb, but a limb nevertheless.

I like to stick to facts as much as possible. And again, I'm a stickler for accuracy and also simplicity, whenever the two are compatible.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: klasG4e on May 26, 2018, 03:56:58 PM
It would be good to have a reference list of all the sede definitions set forth for us rather than to just keep throwing around the ever growing number of
sede this and sede that terms.  We ain't all up to speed.  :)
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Nadir on May 26, 2018, 05:01:41 PM
I was thinking that myself for a while now, Klas.
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Ladislaus on May 26, 2018, 07:55:22 PM
Who would be an example of dogmatic NO sedeplenist? I always equated sedeplenism with R&R, but maybe I am wrong.

Most conservative Novus Ordites are dogmatic sedeplenists.  You know what the term means, right?, that Holy See is legitimately occupied (currently by Francis).
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: 2Vermont on May 27, 2018, 06:58:54 AM
Most conservative Novus Ordites are dogmatic sedeplenists.  You know what the term means, right?, that Holy See is legitimately occupied (currently by Francis).
Yes, I do.  I just think that in order to be called "sedeplenist" wrt the Crisis, that the person would have to recognize that Vatican II was not Catholic.  Most, if not all, conservative NO's believe, at best, that Vatican II is "ambiguous".
Title: Re: Ironically named Truth is Eternal banned for Judaizing heresy
Post by: Ladislaus on May 27, 2018, 03:50:31 PM
Yes, I do.  I just think that in order to be called "sedeplenist" wrt the Crisis, that the person would have to recognize that Vatican II was not Catholic.  Most, if not all, conservative NO's believe, at best, that Vatican II is "ambiguous".

Most dogmatic sedeplenists in the NO believe that V2 was just great.