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Offline Disputaciones

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How fast can you learn to code on your own?
« on: July 18, 2019, 04:44:06 PM »
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  • Assuming you could devote, say, 4 hours everyday, or at least 6 days per week, how long would it take you to learn HTML, PHP and CSS?

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: How fast can you learn to code on your own?
    « Reply #1 on: July 18, 2019, 07:13:15 PM »
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  • How do you plan to do it?  Taking a class?  Studying a book?  If you are average intelligence and you are going to try self-study you probably will not succeed.  If you take a class, even an online class that offers one-on-one help, you and you are highly motivated, you should be able to succeed.  And I think if you look at the class syllabus you will have a better idea of how many hours you will have to put in.

    There are lots of online courses available.   Udacity, Udemy, etc.  Try Udemy.  Their courses are good and you can contact the instructor to get answers to your questions.  You can get some courses at discounted prices.


    Offline AlligatorDicax

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    "Coder"?/Re: How fast can you learn to code on your own?
    « Reply #2 on: July 18, 2019, 10:01:17 PM »
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  • Assuming you could devote, say, 4 hours everyday, or at least 6 days per week, how long would it take you to learn HTML, PHP and CSS?

    My recollection is that you don't reside in the U.S.A., which could easily knock even the most sympathetic or favorable advice out of whack (into uselessness).

    Should I assume that you're expecting that what you "learn" will lead to more profitable employment?  I concede that it's an imperfect analogy, but are you seeking the level of skill akin to a lumberjack who might be able to build a rough-log cabin, or to a common carpenter who might be able to reproduce Early American furniture, or to an artisanal carpenter who could design & build elegant structures like a traditional Catholic altar?

    What technical background do you already have that can provide a basis for your new effort?

    You do know, don't you, that idiosyncracies of the software industry have already led to plenty of bad software "out there",  and yes, I absolutely positively do include Microsoft.

    Offline Disputaciones

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    Re: How fast can you learn to code on your own?
    « Reply #3 on: July 19, 2019, 10:31:34 AM »
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  • How do you plan to do it?  Taking a class?  Studying a book?  If you are average intelligence and you are going to try self-study you probably will not succeed.  If you take a class, even an online class that offers one-on-one help, you and you are highly motivated, you should be able to succeed.  And I think if you look at the class syllabus you will have a better idea of how many hours you will have to put in.

    There are lots of online courses available.   Udacity, Udemy, etc.  Try Udemy.  Their courses are good and you can contact the instructor to get answers to your questions.  You can get some courses at discounted prices.
    Are you a developer?

    I was thinking of going through Free Code Camp. I've seen a couple of developers say that you should try it out for free before you invest any money in it, because you don't know if you will like it.

    Offline Disputaciones

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    Re: "Coder"?/Re: How fast can you learn to code on your own?
    « Reply #4 on: July 19, 2019, 10:49:23 AM »
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  • My recollection is that you don't reside in the U.S.A., which could easily knock even the most sympathetic or favorable advice out of whack (into uselessness).

    Should I assume that you're expecting that what you "learn" will lead to more profitable employment?  I concede that it's an imperfect analogy, but are you seeking the level of skill akin to a lumberjack who might be able to build a rough-log cabin, or to a common carpenter who might be able to reproduce Early American furniture, or to an artisanal carpenter who could design & build elegant structures like a traditional Catholic altar?

    What technical background do you already have that can provide a basis for your new effort?

    You do know, don't you, that idiosyncracies of the software industry have already led to plenty of bad software "out there",  and yes, I absolutely positively do include Microsoft.
    That's right, I lived outside the US before, but not anymore.

    Sure, making more money is one reason I'm drawn to it. As far as what level of expertise I would want to achieve, well that depends on how things go.

    I don't have much of a technical background. Perhaps the closest thing to code I can do at the moment is Wordpress. I know there's no coding involved of course. But I would think it's something "technical."

    How about you? Are you a developer?


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: How fast can you learn to code on your own?
    « Reply #5 on: July 19, 2019, 09:13:39 PM »
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  • There are several developers among the CathInfo membership, including myself.

    All I can say is: the industry is ruthlessly competitive. Unless you have a strong interest AND a natural talent for some kind of engineering (building stuff, particularly in the abstract) you won't succeed.

    There are so many in the industry already, that employers assume you know nothing and spend a LOT of time testing and grilling each applicant, even if you have a long resume!

    I can't think of another industry that is SO BAD about not only your KNOWLEDGE becoming obsolete every 5 years, but even your experience! It's almost ridiculous. I have literally done nothing else career-wise since I was about 21 (except 3.5 years at a Trad seminary) and I couldn't find a job for about 6 months last year. I had plenty of applications and interviews. I felt like a useless failure. And I DO have natural talent along with an enjoyment of programming, plus I've developed that talent. But anything I did more than 4 years ago was completely worthless.

    When you have 2 guys with "3 years relevant experience", one guy is 20 and wants 50K a year and the other is 42 and has a family, and wants 80K, guess which one most people hire? The first. That's because they're cheaper, younger, more willing and able to put in long hours, more likely to be liberal -- plus the younger ones have less attachments, have no family except their co-workers (which tries to be a pseudo-family).
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    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: How fast can you learn to code on your own?
    « Reply #6 on: July 19, 2019, 11:25:10 PM »
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  • There are several developers among the CathInfo membership, including myself.

    All I can say is: the industry is ruthlessly competitive. Unless you have a strong interest AND a natural talent for some kind of engineering (building stuff, particularly in the abstract) you won't succeed.

    There are so many in the industry already, that employers assume you know nothing and spend a LOT of time testing and grilling each applicant, even if you have a long resume!

    I can't think of another industry that is SO BAD about not only your KNOWLEDGE becoming obsolete every 5 years, but even your experience! It's almost ridiculous. I have literally done nothing else career-wise since I was about 21 (except 3.5 years at a Trad seminary) and I couldn't find a job for about 6 months last year. I had plenty of applications and interviews. I felt like a useless failure. And I DO have natural talent along with an enjoyment of programming, plus I've developed that talent. But anything I did more than 4 years ago was completely worthless.

    It's also bloated because of everyone and their mother suddenly starting a "coding boot camp". It's the new law school — high-paying, lucrative, bloated and with too many people.
    Tío Samuel, ven pa 'aca

    Offline Alan

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    Re: How fast can you learn to code on your own?
    « Reply #7 on: July 20, 2019, 02:38:02 AM »
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  • I can't think of another industry that is SO BAD about not only your KNOWLEDGE becoming obsolete every 5 years, but even your experience! It's almost ridiculous. I have literally done nothing else career-wise since I was about 21 (except 3.5 years at a Trad seminary) and I couldn't find a job for about 6 months last year. I had plenty of applications and interviews. I felt like a useless failure. And I DO have natural talent along with an enjoyment of programming, plus I've developed that talent. But anything I did more than 4 years ago was completely worthless.

    Agreed!

    Apart from the Computing Science graduates, graduates from other disciplines who couldn't find a job have been taking the programming industry as a "life boat" -- a sort of refuge from unemployment. Economists, psychologists, engineers, mathematicians etc. 

    The competition is tough. So what tip do you have to increase your chance of getting a job??

    I got one, do you want to hear?





    Offline Disputaciones

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    Re: How fast can you learn to code on your own?
    « Reply #8 on: July 20, 2019, 09:03:26 AM »
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  • There are several developers among the CathInfo membership, including myself.

    All I can say is: the industry is ruthlessly competitive. Unless you have a strong interest AND a natural talent for some kind of engineering (building stuff, particularly in the abstract) you won't succeed.

    There are so many in the industry already, that employers assume you know nothing and spend a LOT of time testing and grilling each applicant, even if you have a long resume!

    I can't think of another industry that is SO BAD about not only your KNOWLEDGE becoming obsolete every 5 years, but even your experience! It's almost ridiculous. I have literally done nothing else career-wise since I was about 21 (except 3.5 years at a Trad seminary) and I couldn't find a job for about 6 months last year. I had plenty of applications and interviews. I felt like a useless failure. And I DO have natural talent along with an enjoyment of programming, plus I've developed that talent. But anything I did more than 4 years ago was completely worthless.

    When you have 2 guys with "3 years relevant experience", one guy is 20 and wants 50K a year and the other is 42 and has a family, and wants 80K, guess which one most people hire? The first. That's because they're cheaper, younger, more willing and able to put in long hours, more likely to be liberal -- plus the younger ones have less attachments, have no family except their co-workers (which tries to be a pseudo-family).
    Yeah, I've read those things before. But what about the whole "there aren't enough programmers" thing? I've seen a bunch of ads, and also many of the "big guys" from Silicon Valley, all saying that the demand is greater than the supply, and that this will only widen in the future. "100,000 programmer jobs will go unfilled by 2020" I've heard.

    A couple of days ago I saw a video of a young developer. The exact same thing you said happened to him. He got a job for 50k but had little to no experience. The company found someone with 3 years experience willing to work for the same 50k, so they let him go. I wonder if you saw the same video?

    It seems the best thing right now is to do your own thing, get your own clients. Finding and keeping a job has never seemed more uncertain and precarious.

    You have never tried going on your own and developing websites for clients, for example?

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: How fast can you learn to code on your own?
    « Reply #9 on: July 20, 2019, 10:22:05 AM »
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  • Yeah, I've read those things before. But what about the whole "there aren't enough programmers" thing? I've seen a bunch of ads, and also many of the "big guys" from Silicon Valley, all saying that the demand is greater than the supply, and that this will only widen in the future. "100,000 programmer jobs will go unfilled by 2020" I've heard.

    A couple of days ago I saw a video of a young developer. The exact same thing you said happened to him. He got a job for 50k but had little to no experience. The company found someone with 3 years experience willing to work for the same 50k, so they let him go. I wonder if you saw the same video?

    It seems the best thing right now is to do your own thing, get your own clients. Finding and keeping a job has never seemed more uncertain and precarious.

    You have never tried going on your own and developing websites for clients, for example?
    .
    FYI I'm not a coder, so my insights are more general:
    .
    Keep in mind that corporate big wigs have a vested interest in hitting the "we don't have enough programmers" button.  Why?  Because people like you believe it, go out and learn how to code, and so do tons of other people, and then you all hit the job market and they can pay you pittance because now (after they've used their influence) there's tons of programmers.
    .
    Programming is also a little tricky, I think, because only other programmers can tell if a programmer is any good.  It isn't like (say) interviewing to work in sales, where even the HR manager who might not have much exposure to what the sales staff actually does, can make perfect sense of an internal job description.  All an HR manager can do in the case of a programmer is take your word for it that you know Java, SQL, Python, or whatever.  He can't actually tell.  He doesn't even know what these things are except that they have something to do with software.  Point being, the selection process from one company to the next is probably going to be a bit wonky because it's more difficult for the decision makers to all get on the same page.
    .
    The "gig economy" is growing for all industries, and definitely for programmers.  But keep in mind that "knowing how to code" is only one prerequisite for the gig economy for coders (or anyone else for that matter).  You are essentially a sole-proprietor, and as someone who has been part of the gig economy (or someone like Matthew, who has coded in it) can tell you, that means you have to market yourself.  You have to get along with other people.  You have to have good business sense-- you have to know how to communicate with others, how to sell your skills, how to anticipate needs, how to resolve conflict, how to invoice people and make sure you get paid, and so on.  You'll be doing way more than "just coding" in the gig economy, you'll be running a business.
    .
    I say all of this not to discourage you or invite cynicism, but to hopefully paint something of a clearer picture of what to expect.  Obviously people are successful as programmers, and people do make a living in the gig economy.  But it isn't going to necessarily just be a matter of going to code boot camp and then getting hired for the first six figure salaried job you apply for.  There's gonna be risk and you're going to likely have to climb proverbial ladders.
    More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com

    Offline Disputaciones

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    Re: How fast can you learn to code on your own?
    « Reply #10 on: July 20, 2019, 11:57:31 AM »
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  • .
    FYI I'm not a coder, so my insights are more general:
    .
    Keep in mind that corporate big wigs have a vested interest in hitting the "we don't have enough programmers" button.  Why?  Because people like you believe it, go out and learn how to code, and so do tons of other people, and then you all hit the job market and they can pay you pittance because now (after they've used their influence) there's tons of programmers.
    No mater what it is, there's people who are good, better, and best at something, so even if the supply is large, I would think there's still the chance for anyone to stand out. That just makes things much harder of course. Or easier, if you're freaky good and smart or have exceptional work ethic, however you want to look at it.

    Quote
    Programming is also a little tricky, I think, because only other programmers can tell if a programmer is any good.  It isn't like (say) interviewing to work in sales, where even the HR manager who might not have much exposure to what the sales staff actually does, can make perfect sense of an internal job description.  All an HR manager can do in the case of a programmer is take your word for it that you know Java, SQL, Python, or whatever.  He can't actually tell.  He doesn't even know what these things are except that they have something to do with software.  Point being, the selection process from one company to the next is probably going to be a bit wonky because it's more difficult for the decision makers to all get on the same page.
    Yeah, that's why I have seen that they tell you to explain the things you have done and the ways you have used this or that language. Have projects you can talk about. Prove that you know what you're talking about and did it yourself etc.

    Quote
    The "gig economy" is growing for all industries, and definitely for programmers.  But keep in mind that "knowing how to code" is only one prerequisite for the gig economy for coders (or anyone else for that matter).  You are essentially a sole-proprietor, and as someone who has been part of the gig economy (or someone like Matthew, who has coded in it) can tell you, that means you have to market yourself.  You have to get along with other people.  You have to have good business sense-- you have to know how to communicate with others, how to sell your skills, how to anticipate needs, how to resolve conflict, how to invoice people and make sure you get paid, and so on.  You'll be doing way more than "just coding" in the gig economy, you'll be running a business.
    .
    I say all of this not to discourage you or invite cynicism, but to hopefully paint something of a clearer picture of what to expect.  Obviously people are successful as programmers, and people do make a living in the gig economy.  But it isn't going to necessarily just be a matter of going to code boot camp and then getting hired for the first six figure salaried job you apply for.  There's gonna be risk and you're going to likely have to climb proverbial ladders.
    Yes, I am well aware of all this, since I have been looking into doing my own thing, but with something else, not coding.

    Perhaps I should say now that I didn't ask these questions without having done any research myself into it, or being totally clueless. I've already looked into these things. But I wanted to see what trads had to say about it.


     

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