Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Computers, Technology, Websites => Topic started by: MrsZ on September 03, 2010, 02:25:16 PM
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I rarely visit the Fisheaters Forum website anymore, but went there today and discovered that the site has crashed. Last week I read a couple posts and several people were wondering what had happened to the moderator who hadn't been on the site for a few weeks or a month or so. Since I've heard about the possibly questionable choices of the moderators in the last few years and of course the ongoing scandalous posts etc., I was just wondering if this was a technical glitch or something more.
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A well deserved crash.
I very seldom look at that site.
Some of the avatars make me sick.
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FE used to be decent, not so much anymore. It does sound like some mysterious things are going on over there. I wouldn't know though, I rarely visit the site.
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A well deserved crash.
I very seldom look at that site.
Some of the avatars make me sick.
For it not only makes one sick but also mad seeing that they're supposed to be good Catholics as well!
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FE used to be decent, not so much anymore. It does sound like some mysterious things are going on over there. I wouldn't know though, I rarely visit the site.
And when it resumes, I hope it'll be for the better of them there - meaning a pious Catholic forum.
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A well deserved crash.
I very seldom look at that site.
Some of the avatars make me sick.
Well deserved, yes...and some of those avatars are sick...
First def in the slang dictionary!!...some are boring, but what can you do?
I like the Archie Bunker one.
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A well deserved crash.
I very seldom look at that site.
Some of the avatars make me sick.
Well deserved, yes...and some of those avatars are sick...
First def in the slang dictionary!!...some are boring, but what can you do?
I like the Archie Bunker one.
Your new avatar isn't much better than the ones over at FE.
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A well deserved crash.
I very seldom look at that site.
Some of the avatars make me sick.
Well deserved, yes...and some of those avatars are sick...
First def in the slang dictionary!!...some are boring, but what can you do?
I like the Archie Bunker one.
Scipio,
What about YOUR Avatar? Im my opion its one of the sickest Ive seen!
:surprised:
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I don't think you "got" scipio's joke, but I don't blame you.
Scipio is trying to be funny, but one only gets the joke if he understands the modern definition of "sick" --
You'll scratch your head over this one...
Apparently "sick" means cool, awesome, great.
Go figure. I guess it's appropriate for moderns, since everything is backwards these days.
Matthew
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A well deserved crash.
I very seldom look at that site.
Some of the avatars make me sick.
Well deserved, yes...and some of those avatars are sick...
First def in the slang dictionary!!...some are boring, but what can you do?
I like the Archie Bunker one.
Hi, Scipio. Which one was the Archie Bunker one?
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I don't think you "got" scipio's joke, but I don't blame you.
Scipio is trying to be funny, but one only gets the joke if he understands the modern definition of "sick" --
You'll scratch your head over this one...
Apparently "sick" means cool, awesome, great.
Go figure. I guess it's appropriate for moderns, since everything is backwards these days.
Matthew
Thanks Matthew. That dates me, if nothing else I say doesnt! :roll-laugh1:
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Hi, Scipio. Which one was the Archie Bunker one?
It's SoCalLocal, he has a great acerbic sense of humor, and while he FSSPs and I SSPX and we have butted heads on that score, he is fair. Additionally, he has more of a typical "traddy" sense of modesty that do I. I'm not sure how far that goes. but his posts are almost always fun to read.
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I don't think you "got" scipio's joke, but I don't blame you.
Scipio is trying to be funny, but one only gets the joke if he understands the modern definition of "sick" --
You'll scratch your head over this one...
Apparently "sick" means cool, awesome, great.
Go figure. I guess it's appropriate for moderns, since everything is backwards these days.
Matthew
Thanks Matthew. That dates me, if nothing else I say doesnt! :roll-laugh1:
However, I have to add......scipio your avatar is twisted and criminal. Catholics are supposed to reject the world and all its false maxims.
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However, I have to add......scipio your avatar is twisted and criminal. Catholics are supposed to reject the world and all its false maxims.
This is one of the funniest comments I've read about my avatar, thanks for the laugh. It is a cartoon super hero....the darker sort...sort of like Batman, but cooler.
Do you like the things Bishop Williamson says?
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An avatar would be nice. I wouldn't have the foggiest how to do one, though.
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I guess they'll all be coming over here.
Why the switch Scipio? You seemeed to have jumped ship just at the right time.
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I just chose an avatar, Elizabeth. It was easy. First, I found a picture I liked from a movie. Then I clicked on "control panel", then I clicked on on "edit avatar". The rest is self-explanatory. It only took a minute or two.
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This is one of the funniest comments I've read about my avatar, thanks for the laugh. It is a cartoon super hero....the darker sort...sort of like Batman, but cooler.
I always liked your Kill Bill one the best.
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This is one of the funniest comments I've read about my avatar, thanks for the laugh. It is a cartoon super hero....the darker sort...sort of like Batman, but cooler.
I always liked your Kill Bill one the best.
Why?
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A well deserved crash.
I very seldom look at that site.
Some of the avatars make me sick.
Well deserved, yes...and some of those avatars are sick...
First def in the slang dictionary!!...some are boring, but what can you do?
I like the Archie Bunker one.
Your new avatar isn't much better than the ones over at FE.
Ditto
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This is one of the funniest comments I've read about my avatar, thanks for the laugh. It is a cartoon super hero....the darker sort...sort of like Batman, but cooler.
I always liked your Kill Bill one the best.
Why?
Just personal preference.
My all-time fav. was one used by a poster for a while. It showed St. Michael against a black background.
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However, I have to add......scipio your avatar is twisted and criminal. Catholics are supposed to reject the world and all its false maxims.
This is one of the funniest comments I've read about my avatar, thanks for the laugh.
Do you like the things Bishop Williamson says?
Scipio, my post was not meant to be funny! Since when is a wierd looking girl carring a gun Catholic? Pick a CATHOLIC avatar!!!!!!!
What has Bishop Williamson got to do with this? I bet he would make the same comment as I did. :fryingpan:
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Just personal preference.
Why would you have a personal preference for a character from an obscene movie?
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My opinion was just based on the appearance of the picture. A woman holding a samurai sword. I did not invest it with any further meaning than that.
It seems you do though. Would you consider that avatar to be an offensive picture because it came from a movie you also found offensive?
What are your thoughts about avatar pictures from other movies or pop-art? Do you think avatars used at this site should be Traditionalist Catholic only, or just non-pop art/entertainment in general?
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The Saint Benedict Medal is a good choice, I love it!!!
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My opinion was just based on the appearance of the picture. A woman holding a samurai sword. I did not invest it with any further meaning than that.
You knew which movie it came from.
And why do you like a woman carrying a samurai sword?
What's appealing about that?
Why celebrate an obscene movie?
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The Saint Benedict Medal is a good choice, I love it!!!
Thanks.
Telephorus, I did not see your reply to my questions yet.
Perhaps you do not wish to engage. If so, that's fine.
Peace.
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The Saint Benedict Medal is a good choice, I love it!!!
Thanks.
Telephorus, I did not see your reply to my questions yet.
Perhaps you do not wish to engage. If so, that's fine.
Peace.
I think you should explain how you think it's appropriate to use an avatar from an obscene movie? And why would any Catholic think that's their favorite?
Some oriental woman with a samurai sword. There's nothing even remotely interesting or artistic about that.
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Not to change the flavor of this thread, but if Fisheaters forum has crashed is this the reason why we are getting so many new members?
Welcome folks!
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Telesphorus, with all due respect, I do not believe I owe you any explanations.
As this thread is about the crash of the FE site, I believe your issues with my preference of an avatar is not relevant.
As it appears you prefer to attack my stated preference instead of engaging in honest discussion, I shall withdraw from this exchange with you.
May God bless you, Telesphorus.
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Scipio, my post was not meant to be funny! Since when is a wierd looking girl carring a gun Catholic? Pick a CATHOLIC avatar!!!!!!!
What has Bishop Williamson got to do with this? I bet he would make the same comment as I did. :fryingpan:
Well, then consider your humor a bonus...I do.
And Bishop W has everything to do with it...answer the question, do you like the things +W says, for instance, do you agree with his assessment of "The Sound of Music"?
Is there anything you know of that you disagree with him on?
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Your new avatar isn't much better than the ones over at FE.
Ditto
I agree with you both..it is not much better. In fact the the one over at FE is better...really cool gif and all, but still pics have their place.
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Hopefully Scipio won't be tolerated here as she is on Fisheaters. Her presence will attract twerps and Cathinfo will quickly go down the drain.
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I doubt the Fisheaters forum is down for good. It's seems the moderator over there is a bit of a baby and has an emotional breakdown every 6 months or so, but then rebounds the same as ever.
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Hopefully Scipio won't be tolerated here as she is on Fisheaters. Her presence will attract twerps and Cathinfo will quickly go down the drain.
Unfortunately for you, I do not espouse heresy of any sort, attend only SSPX Chapels, and can throw the reasoning ABL and co use vs the NO and FSSP back at any one, and buy it 100%.
Furthur I have been a member here a year longer than you...maybe you should look at profiles a bit.
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I purposefully called you a female knowing you wouldn't correct me. Why does a man not mind people thinking him a woman?
Length of membership is irrelevant. If you intend to become a frequent contributor this forum will disintegrate. You're a disease. I'm not a Catholic yet, but if what you represent is true Catholicism then I can easily reject the Church as being a false religion.
Matthew, keep a close eye on this one.
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I purposefully called you a female knowing you wouldn't correct me. Why does a man not mind people thinking him a woman?
Length of membership is irrelevant. If you intend to become a frequent contributor this forum will disintegrate. You're a disease. I'm not a Catholic yet, but if what you represent is true Catholicism then I can easily reject the Church as being a false religion.
Matthew, keep a close eye on this one.
Well seeing as I take the SSPX stand on everything as regards the Faith, perhaps you'd care to explain how the Church is a false religion...???
I bolded the part that stikes me the most...about you personally. I mean, if you're gonna make the one statement, it's pretty foolish to make the one that follows...right after....you could not be more obvious.
As far as the he/she thing, two things come to mind, first the number of dudes that have Our Lady as their avatar, or some other female saint or historical figure...so the must be chicks right???LOL
The second was a political ploy by LBJ to smear one of his competitors. He put out a rumor about his rival and pigs, knowing it to be false just so he could hear they guy deny it....
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Hopefully Scipio won't be tolerated here as she is on Fisheaters. Her presence will attract twerps and Cathinfo will quickly go down the drain.
I second that. And I'll ask you again scipio, why the change?
You seemed to be right at home over there at FE
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Why not? -- we have the blasphemous Classiclown already. :smoke-pot: :wine-drinking:
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Fisheaters forum is back up.
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well that's good news.
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well that's good news.
I'm not so sure scipio won't stick around here anyway.
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Hopefully Scipio won't be tolerated here as she is on Fisheaters. Her presence will attract twerps and Cathinfo will quickly go down the drain.
I second that. And I'll ask you again scipio, why the change?
You seemed to be right at home over there at FE
What??? I'm not at home here?! Well, never fear, I bounce in and out from time to time in spurts. Although one has to wonder at the general attitude, not that I care...I don't. I'm accoustomed to it. There are plenty of holierthanthous to go aropund and FE has its share too.
You see Telemaque invited me over again and I could not resist. And Bellroc was so receptive that to my first post in a long time he responded 5 or 6 times....now that's hero worship for you....you can't put a price on that.
I sure would be interested in any real qualms any of you have other thasn my avatar...
Is it the modesty stuff?
is it Candyland???
Is it anti moham lovin?
Is it pro libery stuff?
Love of the US?
Recognition that distrbutism is just another wraper for socialism....?
What is it that Thursday and co. is upset about, seeing as I have hardly ever posted about major topics here???
YOu see, if you do have something against me all it means is that you MUST frequent FE and read A LOT of my stuff....LOL what a blast.
I must say I am particularly pleased with the modesty posts.
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But ultimately I will return, I have to keep an eye on Stevus and make sure he's OK
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However, I have to add......scipio your avatar is twisted and criminal. Catholics are supposed to reject the world and all its false maxims.
This is one of the funniest comments I've read about my avatar, thanks for the laugh. It is a cartoon super hero....the darker sort...sort of like Batman, but cooler.
Do you like the things Bishop Williamson says?
I'm guessing you don't like the things he says. I wouldn't be surprised.
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Hopefully Scipio won't be tolerated here as she is on Fisheaters. Her presence will attract twerps and Cathinfo will quickly go down the drain.
Unfortunately for you, I do not espouse heresy of any sort, attend only SSPX Chapels, and can throw the reasoning ABL and co use vs the NO and FSSP back at any one, and buy it 100%.
Furthur I have been a member here a year longer than you...maybe you should look at profiles a bit.
It doesn't mean a darn thing if you have been here longer than Henry has, especially since he's only been here two months and already has more posts than you!
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Your new avatar isn't much better than the ones over at FE.
Ditto
I agree with you both..it is not much better. In fact the the one over at FE is better...really cool gif and all, but still pics have their place.
When I said it wasn't much better than the ones at FE, I wasn't saying the ones at FE are good and I wasn't saying yours is good either. Both your avatar and the similar looking ones at FE are trashy.
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SS, you're still 2nd place to Bellroc as far as hero worship goes....he did a few more replies straight on the candyland part 2 thread.
Additionally, you know where I stand on +W since you read all my stuff on FE.
:reading:
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SS, you're still 2nd place to Bellroc as far as hero worship goes....he did a few more replies straight on the candyland part 2 thread.
Additionally, you know where I stand on +W since you read all my stuff on FE.
:reading:
Hero worship? What do you mean by that? And actually I have not yet read one post you made over at FE.
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Seems to me that FE keeps going under.
I couldn't get on the website for a good period of time today and I can't get on it again now.
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I think if this keeps up enough people are going to leave to make it where FE is no longer one of the "Big Three" Catholic forums, the other two being AQ and (obviously) CatholicInfo (I could have said CAF but that place isn't really Catholic).
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I think it was just a problem with the internet I was on.
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I think it was just a problem with the internet I was on.
I had issues then too. It would take more than that for it to go under though.
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I think it was just a problem with the internet I was on.
I had issues then too. It would take more than that for it to go under though.
I don't think it's going to go under. It does seem to be done again though. Lame.
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So, is FE running again?
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When it was first reported that FE was down, it was down for
me. So there must have been a problem that will most
likely will not be known.
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Are you saying that FE is still not functioning?
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It's been working for the most part for the past two weeks, but it fritzes out here and there.
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It went down for me twice throughout today.
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It went down for me twice throughout today.
Yeah, it's down again now, but this same thing happened earlier tonight and it was back up within a half hour.
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I purposefully called you a female knowing you wouldn't correct me. Why does a man not mind people thinking him a woman?
Length of membership is irrelevant. If you intend to become a frequent contributor this forum will disintegrate. You're a disease. I'm not a Catholic yet, but if what you represent is true Catholicism then I can easily reject the Church as being a false religion.
Matthew, keep a close eye on this one.
I never thought I'd here someone be called a disease on a Catholic forum. I don't care what the person said or did in the past - you need help.
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What's so bad about calling him a disease?
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What's so bad about calling him a disease?
I think the word you are looking for is pest.
:wink:
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Okay, from now on I'll call him a pest. :cheers:
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What's so bad about calling him a disease?
Not a problem. I'm sure it's in the DSMIV.
:reading:
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The FE forum has crashed again.
What could be causing this?
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The FE forum has crashed again.
What could be causing this?
Divine Providence.
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well put!!
:roll-laugh2: :dancing-banana: :rahrah: :jumping2:
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What's so bad about calling him a disease?
I think the word you are looking for is pest.
:wink:
much better word..
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What's so bad about calling him a disease?
I think the word you are looking for is pest.
:wink:
much better word..
Yes, I think he meant his mind-set is a disease... and he who holds it is a pest.
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Again it seems
Table './fisheate_fe59db/smf_sessions' is marked as crashed and should be repaired
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Again it seems
Table './fisheate_fe59db/smf_sessions' is marked as crashed and should be repaired
really, maybe not fix the forum, then again, that would mean they would invade CI likely.....that would be a headache and mess....they would really only have CA to go to or maybe, revive a dead AQ forum......
leave site up, some decent articles,etc....that is a dilema, fix forum to keep the NeoCaths there or....not, and risk them coming here.... :scared2: :read-paper:
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Again it seems
Table './fisheate_fe59db/smf_sessions' is marked as crashed and should be repaired
really, maybe not fix the forum, then again, that would mean they would invade CI likely.....that would be a headache and mess....they would really only have CA to go to or maybe, revive a dead AQ forum......
leave site up, some decent articles,etc....that is a dilema, fix forum to keep the NeoCaths there or....not, and risk them coming here.... :scared2: :read-paper:
Please God, don't let them come here :facepalm:. Most of them are as crude as crude can be. Sometimes I go there and take a peek. It's like looking into a pre-school class. Better that they go to CAF where they fit in nicely (without the crudity, of course :wink:).
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The info on the homepage is a great resource. I never cared for the forum. A bit too much clique clack.
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:facepalm:. Most of them are as crude as crude can be.
Maybe not most of them, but the stench is overpowering by those who are.
There are also some very admirable Catholics who would be very welcome here.
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Sometimes I go there and take a peek. It's like looking into a pre-school class.
:laugh1:
Now that was funny...
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My account has been suspended over there? Is this a site-wide glitch or am I really suspended?
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My account has been suspended over there? Is this a site-wide glitch or am I really suspended?
No, I get the same error. Lately the whole thing seems to have been neglected; constant downtime, little to no mod presence.
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I reckon that it is the Fisheaters account with SMF which has been suspended, because I am getting the same message, and I can't possibly have been banned!
Perhaps Quis has suspended it himself so he can tidy things up without more posts and topics being added and making it harder?
Just a guess.
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Jeeze, it really looks like it's crashed this time. If it goes up again I'll have to copy some of their files for future reference. There was great stuff in their being Catholic sections etc.
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Ok, glad to hear it isn't just me. I really haven't done much except argue with INP about the nature and function of the soul. Not ban worthy as far as I could tell!
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The FE forum has crashed again.
What could be causing this?
Divine Providence.
:roll-laugh1:
Too much fun here !
I don't know a lot about running a site, but perhaps it being down has something to do with the huge images posted there a week or so ago of the cathedral. That could cost money couldn't it ?
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It's back online now.
Here's an explanation. (http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3433089)
Why do we all care about this Fisheater forum? Let us make this forum the best TRAD Catholic one out there! Tired about discussions about the Novus Ordo Church which I left in 1969!
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I agree that FE has been very problematic over the years. I've been concerned about the content and the attitudes of many of the posters and the moderator(s). However they drew many people and the subject matter has been very diverse and at times helpful. I typically would "stop by" there a couple times a week, quickly scan the titles and maybe read here or there ... being mindful of threads that weren't headed in the right direction.
Now it says "Account has been suspended."
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I agree that FE has been very problematic over the years. I've been concerned about the content and the attitudes of many of the posters and the moderator(s). However they drew many people and the subject matter has been very diverse and at times helpful. I typically would "stop by" there a couple times a week, quickly scan the titles and maybe read here or there ... being mindful of threads that weren't headed in the right direction.
Now it says "Account has been suspended."
There are a couple of posters who make trouble on almost every contentious topic. One is a closet Musselman, the other is a proto-universalist NOrian. But the most hilarious thing about that forum is the harem of feminists they have over there. A few months ago I stirred up a nasty flamewar for defending something I should not have to on a trad forum - that women should never, ever be in the military.
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Yes, I agree --
Going to a Mass on Sunday where the priest uses the 1962 Missale Romanum does not a Trad make.
The (traditional) Catholic Faith involves an entire belief system and Catholic morality/culture.
Culture could be defined as "way of life".
All the Catholic cultures in the past were great because of their Catholic foundation. And although each culture was unique, Catholic cultures also had a common underpinning: Catholic morality.
Matthew
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It's back online now.
Here's an explanation. (http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3433089)
Was it really a good idea to link to an up-again, down-again site? :smirk:
What was the explanation?
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Yes, I agree --
Going to a Mass on Sunday where the priest uses the 1962 Missale Romanum does not a Trad make.
The (traditional) Catholic Faith involves an entire belief system and Catholic morality/culture.
Culture could be defined as "way of life".
All the Catholic cultures in the past were great because of their Catholic foundation. And although each culture was unique, Catholic cultures also had a common underpinning: Catholic morality.
Matthew
Sadly, a good chunk of the younger trads are really nothing more than hobbyists. It doesnt take much digging to find that many of them are just as liberal as any other young person.
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It's back online now.
Here's an explanation. (http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3433089)
Was it really a good idea to link to an up-again, down-again site? :smirk:
What was the explanation?
DOS attack.
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Yes, I agree --
Going to a Mass on Sunday where the priest uses the 1962 Missale Romanum does not a Trad make.
The (traditional) Catholic Faith involves an entire belief system and Catholic morality/culture.
Culture could be defined as "way of life".
All the Catholic cultures in the past were great because of their Catholic foundation. And although each culture was unique, Catholic cultures also had a common underpinning: Catholic morality.
Matthew
Sadly, a good chunk of the younger trads are really nothing more than hobbyists. It doesnt take much digging to find that many of them are just as liberal as any other young person.
[/b]
Too, too true. But don't tell them that - they'll take your head off. They don't take criticism or correction well at all.
Although, to be fair, I know a few older alleged traditionals who are liberals at heart as well.
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Yes, I agree --
Going to a Mass on Sunday where the priest uses the 1962 Missale Romanum does not a Trad make.
The (traditional) Catholic Faith involves an entire belief system and Catholic morality/culture.
Culture could be defined as "way of life".
All the Catholic cultures in the past were great because of their Catholic foundation. And although each culture was unique, Catholic cultures also had a common underpinning: Catholic morality.
Matthew
Sadly, a good chunk of the younger trads are really nothing more than hobbyists. It doesnt take much digging to find that many of them are just as liberal as any other young person.
[/b]
Too, too true. But don't tell them that - they'll take your head off. They don't take criticism or correction well at all.
Yes, I have come across a few like this. Just looking at some so called "Trad" blogs from certain young people on the internet will reveal ideas and practices that are infected with the Frankfurt School of thought as well as postmodernism. We Trads dislike Modernism and rightfully so, but here is the catch, so do Postmodernists, except in true Modernist fashion what Postmodernists mean when they say Modernism is not exactly what we Traditionalists mean.
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Yes, I agree --
Going to a Mass on Sunday where the priest uses the 1962 Missale Romanum does not a Trad make.
The (traditional) Catholic Faith involves an entire belief system and Catholic morality/culture.
Culture could be defined as "way of life".
All the Catholic cultures in the past were great because of their Catholic foundation. And although each culture was unique, Catholic cultures also had a common underpinning: Catholic morality.
Matthew
Sadly, a good chunk of the younger trads are really nothing more than hobbyists. It doesnt take much digging to find that many of them are just as liberal as any other young person.
[/b]
Too, too true. But don't tell them that - they'll take your head off. They don't take criticism or correction well at all.
Yes, I have come across a few like this. Just looking at some so called "Trad" blogs from certain young people on the internet will reveal ideas and practices that are infected with the Frankfurt School of thought as well as postmodernism. We Trads dislike Modernism and rightfully so, but here is the catch, so do Postmodernists, except in true Modernist fashion what Postmodernists mean when they say Modernism is not exactly what we Traditionalists mean.
A very wise SSPX priest told me a very long time ago to always make sure you define your terms when you speak to these people. I didn't believe him until I went back to the novus ordo and spoke to one of their priests. I discovered that, although we used the same terminology, we both had different meanings for the same words.
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I did not like the way a lot of the women on that forum spoke about sex and many were always talking about "finding a balance". And my observation about "finding a balance" being such a used expression there by no means is always related to sex. It is code for compromising with the dark side. So that was my first clue that there were a lot of modernists there.
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Yes, I agree --
Going to a Mass on Sunday where the priest uses the 1962 Missale Romanum does not a Trad make.
The (traditional) Catholic Faith involves an entire belief system and Catholic morality/culture.
Culture could be defined as "way of life".
All the Catholic cultures in the past were great because of their Catholic foundation. And although each culture was unique, Catholic cultures also had a common underpinning: Catholic morality.
Matthew
Very true Matthew.
I'm sure some here have seen this, but I was very moved when I found it.
"I began serving the “old Mass” as an altar boy in 1927. I am now 88 years old, 62 years as a priest. As a lad, knowing the perfect recitations of all the Latin Mass responses, I dealt with priests of every age and devotion and I do not recall any who deliberately mumbled their prayers. The churches were not air-conditioned in those days and in the hot summer days it was not uncommon to omit the sermon; Low Mass might last for only 20 minutes, and Communions were much fewer in those days. Now with the Novus Ordo, I have attended Mass in 10 minutes. A possible scandal.
The only scandal I can recall in the old days was people sleeping during the sermon. Nobody complained about the Eucharistic fast from midnight; nobody complained about Communion on the tongue or about the Latin. In fact, we were proud of the Latin we knew. Non-Catholics marveled at the piety and the reverence of the congregation and the head-coverings of the women. Those were the glory days of the Church when our Catholic faith was a family thing, a treasure we prized. Our faith was so much a part of our life that it colored our moods, shaped our social activities, influenced our style of dress, and flavored our conversation. How many families can make the same claim today?
Last Sunday I experienced what perhaps was the greatest joy of my priesthood. I could scarcely contain myself. Indeed, my cup runneth over. I celebrated the Tridentine Latin Mass with a congregation of two hundred people. It was like a repetition of my First Holy Mass 56 years ago. It was a Missa Cantata — those sacred Gregorian melodies so fitting for worship: the solemn Trinity Preface, the solemn Pater Noster, the Holy Gospel, and the Orations.
My daily vernacular Mass has been a joy in my life, but there was always something about this Tridentine Latin Mass that went beyond all telling. I’ve found something that I had lost some 35 years ago. All those years my heart ached for the Latin Mass that I had lost, always hoping that some day, please God, I would find it. Last Sunday I found it. And like the widow of the Gospel who found her lost coin and who called in her neighbors to rejoice with her, now I was the one who wanted to call in the whole world to share in my joy. It was like being away from home all these years and always hoping that some day the permission for me would arrive to return home and share again with my dear ones the joys of long ago. It was home sweet home again. My joy knows no bounds.
My humble and ineffable thanks to our good Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, the Good Shepherd who went out looking for all those abandoned sheep to lead us back home again — to Rome, sweet home.
Would I go back to the new Mass? No way!
Rev. Charles Schoenbaechler, C.R.
Louisville, Kentucky"
http://www.newoxfordreview.org/letters.jsp?did=1004-letters
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Fr Charles was in Bermuda for years before being sent away by the bishop there for being "too traditional". Fr returned to the States and was told by his superior to do as he wished.
He stayed in the Church and weathered the NO, before finding a group who needed and welcomed him, but his sermons are, time after time, lamenting the sad state and bad fruit of the post VII church. He is 94 now I think.
The NO priest at the parish Fr Charles prays the TLM at is a narcissist and is one of the reasons I quit going to the Sunday TLM there. This NO priest likes to stroll into the Sanctuary and take the pulpit during the TLM to praise his ideas for new projects and ask for money, and never forgets to tell everyone how much of a sacrifice it is for him to be a priest.
I'll never forget the day I walked into the church, which has the full skeletal remains of Sts Magnus and Bonosa, and seeing a sketch of a new project propped up on the side altar, beneath which St Bonosa rests. I was so angry that day to see this NO priest again take the pulpit and point to the sketch, telling everyone how wonderful the new project will be when completed.
I so wanted to stand up and ask him if he realized what a privilege was granted to him to be named pastor of such an old church, and also ask him if he realized that altars are not to be used as tables/stands to display mundane depictions of non liturgical structures.
It is only out of respect for Fr Charles I didn't.
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Yes, I agree --
Going to a Mass on Sunday where the priest uses the 1962 Missale Romanum does not a Trad make.
The (traditional) Catholic Faith involves an entire belief system and Catholic morality/culture.
Culture could be defined as "way of life".
All the Catholic cultures in the past were great because of their Catholic foundation. And although each culture was unique, Catholic cultures also had a common underpinning: Catholic morality.
Matthew
Very true Matthew.
I'm sure some here have seen this, but I was very moved when I found it.
"I began serving the “old Mass” as an altar boy in 1927. I am now 88 years old, 62 years as a priest. As a lad, knowing the perfect recitations of all the Latin Mass responses, I dealt with priests of every age and devotion and I do not recall any who deliberately mumbled their prayers. The churches were not air-conditioned in those days and in the hot summer days it was not uncommon to omit the sermon; Low Mass might last for only 20 minutes, and Communions were much fewer in those days. Now with the Novus Ordo, I have attended Mass in 10 minutes. A possible scandal.
The only scandal I can recall in the old days was people sleeping during the sermon. Nobody complained about the Eucharistic fast from midnight; nobody complained about Communion on the tongue or about the Latin. In fact, we were proud of the Latin we knew. Non-Catholics marveled at the piety and the reverence of the congregation and the head-coverings of the women. Those were the glory days of the Church when our Catholic faith was a family thing, a treasure we prized. Our faith was so much a part of our life that it colored our moods, shaped our social activities, influenced our style of dress, and flavored our conversation. How many families can make the same claim today?
Last Sunday I experienced what perhaps was the greatest joy of my priesthood. I could scarcely contain myself. Indeed, my cup runneth over. I celebrated the Tridentine Latin Mass with a congregation of two hundred people. It was like a repetition of my First Holy Mass 56 years ago. It was a Missa Cantata — those sacred Gregorian melodies so fitting for worship: the solemn Trinity Preface, the solemn Pater Noster, the Holy Gospel, and the Orations.
My daily vernacular Mass has been a joy in my life, but there was always something about this Tridentine Latin Mass that went beyond all telling. I’ve found something that I had lost some 35 years ago. All those years my heart ached for the Latin Mass that I had lost, always hoping that some day, please God, I would find it. Last Sunday I found it. And like the widow of the Gospel who found her lost coin and who called in her neighbors to rejoice with her, now I was the one who wanted to call in the whole world to share in my joy. It was like being away from home all these years and always hoping that some day the permission for me would arrive to return home and share again with my dear ones the joys of long ago. It was home sweet home again. My joy knows no bounds.
My humble and ineffable thanks to our good Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, the Good Shepherd who went out looking for all those abandoned sheep to lead us back home again — to Rome, sweet home.
Would I go back to the new Mass? No way!
Rev. Charles Schoenbaechler, C.R.
Louisville, Kentucky"
http://www.newoxfordreview.org/letters.jsp?did=1004-letters
.
Fr Charles was in Bermuda for years before being sent away by the bishop there for being "too traditional". Fr returned to the States and was told by his superior to do as he wished.
He stayed in the Church and weathered the NO, before finding a group who needed and welcomed him, but his sermons are, time after time, lamenting the sad state and bad fruit of the post VII church. He is 94 now I think.
The NO priest at the parish Fr Charles prays the TLM at is a narcissist and is one of the reasons I quit going to the Sunday TLM there. This NO priest likes to stroll into the Sanctuary and take the pulpit during the TLM to praise his ideas for new projects and ask for money, and never forgets to tell everyone how much of a sacrifice it is for him to be a priest.
I'll never forget the day I walked into the church, which has the full skeletal remains of Sts Magnus and Bonosa, and seeing a sketch of a new project propped up on the side altar, beneath which St Bonosa rests. I was so angry that day to see this NO priest again take the pulpit and point to the sketch, telling everyone how wonderful the new project will be when completed.
I so wanted to stand up and ask him if he realized what a privilege was granted to him to be named pastor of such an old church, and also ask him if he realized that altars are not to be used as tables/stands to display mundane depictions of non liturgical structures.
It is only out of respect for Fr Charles I didn't.
Damn you Fr Klotter
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I stirred up a nasty flamewar for defending something I should not have to on a trad forum
You've just summed up the problem in a nutshell.
Posting there is often pointless because you are trying to convince disingenuous/ immature posters that the sky is blue.
Even if you get a serious intelligent poster to engage in a discussion, the thread is constantly derailed by trolls and cheerleaders.
Then you've got AQ where any thread that is controversial (interesting), even if a great informative discussion is being had, is locked. It really is a shame because there are a decent amount of knowledgeable and bright posters there. Maybe we can get those individuals over here.
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I stirred up a nasty flamewar for defending something I should not have to on a trad forum
You've just summed up the problem in a nutshell.
Posting there is often pointless because you are trying to convince disingenuous/ immature posters that the sky is blue.
Even if you get a serious intelligent poster to engage in a discussion, the thread is constantly derailed by trolls and cheerleaders.
Then you've got AQ where any thread that is controversial (interesting), even if a great informative discussion is being had, is locked. It really is a shame because there are a decent amount of knowledgeable and bright posters there. Maybe we can get those individuals over here.
AQ isnt too bad, but I dislike their format - painful on the eyes. FE has the prettiest format, and I do actually like the wider variety of forums, but this larger size attracts alot of flakes and phonies. Still alot of good posters over there as I said but alot of bad ones too.
Alot of moral relativism and downright nonsense such as the oxymoron of 'Catholic feminism' - including one poster who claims not to be a fembot but does nothing but rag on men - or the huge number of trads who have decided, on their own, that capital punishment is wrong. This is traditional? Try posting about the anti-Christian 'theology' of Martin Luther King and you'll get jumped on by half the forum. I remember awhile ago one well-meaning poster made an off-hand negative comment about the commie Nelson Mandela and was taken to task. Sorry neo-Trads, or Catholic hobbyists, you cant justify 'civil disobedience', a monstrous anti-Christian belief system founded by post-Christian Yankee transcendentalists.
One other gem I just remembered: there was several threads about the 'pros' and cons of some laughable forum that claimed to combine traditionalism and RAP MUSIC! I posted - you guys cannot be for real - and the relativists tell me that well, alot of us like satanic, black supremacist music, but we're trad too. Hey everyone, with that in mind, I think I am going to become an Anti-Catholic Catholic, because it makes about as much sense.
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Yes, these types are "Neo-Trads". Liberals who prefer the TLM.
They are the reverse of Neo-Caths who are typically conservatives who attend the NO.
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Then you've got AQ where any thread that is controversial (interesting), even if a great informative discussion is being had, is locked. It really is a shame because there are a decent amount of knowledgeable and bright posters there. Maybe we can get those individuals over here.
If the thread is not locked, it turns into ridicule. There are a few resident posters there that turn every serious discussion into ridicule by posting silly pictures. Pity. There was a time about five years ago when that was the best forum around. But Serv took care of that, and now he has what he apparently wanted - a dead forum.
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I stirred up a nasty flamewar for defending something I should not have to on a trad forum
You've just summed up the problem in a nutshell.
Posting there is often pointless because you are trying to convince disingenuous/ immature posters that the sky is blue.
Even if you get a serious intelligent poster to engage in a discussion, the thread is constantly derailed by trolls and cheerleaders.
Then you've got AQ where any thread that is controversial (interesting), even if a great informative discussion is being had, is locked. It really is a shame because there are a decent amount of knowledgeable and bright posters there. Maybe we can get those individuals over here.
AQ isnt too bad, but I dislike their format - painful on the eyes. FE has the prettiest format, and I do actually like the wider variety of forums, but this larger size attracts alot of flakes and phonies. Still alot of good posters over there as I said but alot of bad ones too.
Alot of moral relativism and downright nonsense such as the oxymoron of 'Catholic feminism' - including one poster who claims not to be a fembot but does nothing but rag on men - or the huge number of trads who have decided, on their own, that capital punishment is wrong. This is traditional? Try posting about the anti-Christian 'theology' of Martin Luther King and you'll get jumped on by half the forum. I remember awhile ago one well-meaning poster made an off-hand negative comment about the commie Nelson Mandela and was taken to task. Sorry neo-Trads, or Catholic hobbyists, you cant justify 'civil disobedience', a monstrous anti-Christian belief system founded by post-Christian Yankee transcendentalists.
One other gem I just remembered: there was several threads about the 'pros' and cons of some laughable forum that claimed to combine traditionalism and RAP MUSIC! I posted - you guys cannot be for real - and the relativists tell me that well, alot of us like satanic, black supremacist music, but we're trad too. Hey everyone, with that in mind, I think I am going to become an Anti-Catholic Catholic, because it makes about as much sense.
This is why I dread those people coming here.
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Me too, we had a few minor invasions, but luckily, not long lasting.....most left..to them, bye now!!
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what happened?
The FE feminists took it personally that I defended the traditional position on women in the military, ie there is no good reason for them to serve, short of Joan of Arc, an example they used to justify women going butch GI Jane.
Yes, instead of using the exception to prove the rule they hold out exceptions as the rule.
Libs use the same tactic to argue against any abortion restrictions based on rare exceptional cases like rape/incest.
Here, one historical anomaly justifies turning it into a rule.
Another used an exception, a Catholic Queen of Spain, as a justification that women working full time and having their kids raised by nannies was, if not the Catholic ideal, just as good an option as staying home.
It hurts my brain to think like these people.
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what happened?
The FE feminists took it personally that I defended the traditional position on women in the military, ie there is no good reason for them to serve, short of Joan of Arc, an example they used to justify women going butch GI Jane.
Yes, instead of using the exception to prove the rule they hold out exceptions as the rule.
Libs use the same tactic to argue against any abortion restrictions based on rare exceptional cases like rape/incest.
Here, one historical anomaly justifies turning it into a rule.
Another used an exception, a Catholic Queen of Spain, as a justification that women working full time and having their kids raised by nannies was, if not the Catholic ideal, just as good an option as staying home.
It hurts my brain to think like these people.
Yeah, its a pretty sad sight when 'trads' are arguing for breastfeeding in the middle of Mass. I guess a let-it-all-hang-out attitude prevails among young traddom.
But what a joke. Having your children raised by strangers so you can enjoy material goods more is Catholic? Heaven forbid these women sacrifice to do whats best for their children. I dont have much hope that even trads will be able to hold back the revolution if our younger generation ends up like that.
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Here, one historical anomaly justifies turning it into a rule.
Another used an exception, a Catholic Queen of Spain, as a justification that women working full time and having their kids raised by nannies was, if not the Catholic ideal, just as good an option as staying home.
It hurts my brain to think like these people.
I'm quite sure that Queen Isabella would have had most of FE tried before the Inquisition for the misuse of her person.
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Here, one historical anomaly justifies turning it into a rule.
Another used an exception, a Catholic Queen of Spain, as a justification that women working full time and having their kids raised by nannies was, if not the Catholic ideal, just as good an option as staying home.
It hurts my brain to think like these people.
I'm quite sure that Queen Isabella would have had most of FE tried before the Inquisition for the misuse of her person.
Agreed.
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what happened?
The FE feminists took it personally that I defended the traditional position on women in the military, ie there is no good reason for them to serve, short of Joan of Arc, an example they used to justify women going butch GI Jane.
Yes, instead of using the exception to prove the rule they hold out exceptions as the rule.
Libs use the same tactic to argue against any abortion restrictions based on rare exceptional cases like rape/incest.
Here, one historical anomaly justifies turning it into a rule.
Another used an exception, a Catholic Queen of Spain, as a justification that women working full time and having their kids raised by nannies was, if not the Catholic ideal, just as good an option as staying home.
It hurts my brain to think like these people.
Yeah, its a pretty sad sight when 'trads' are arguing for breastfeeding in the middle of Mass. I guess a let-it-all-hang-out attitude prevails among young traddom.
But what a joke. Having your children raised by strangers so you can enjoy material goods more is Catholic? Heaven forbid these women sacrifice to do whats best for their children. I dont have much hope that even trads will be able to hold back the revolution if our younger generation ends up like that.
There was recently an article on Cathinfo about teenagers and young adults becoming fake Christians, well I have say that we see the same thing with fake Trads. There are a fair amount of people on the internet (including the Remnant sadly, who called the push for the Latin Mass, part of an "international youth movement", OK :laugh1:), who like to boast about the number of young people at TLMs, but I'm somewhat skeptical. I think many have a mere preference for the TLM or attend it for mere sentimental reasons. They don't really want their hearts and minds changed (metanoeo), they want their relativist, liberal, and worldly assumptions and presuppositions baptized.
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They are about one step away from clamoring for "Rock Tridentine" Masses...
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what happened?
The FE feminists took it personally that I defended the traditional position on women in the military, ie there is no good reason for them to serve, short of Joan of Arc, an example they used to justify women going butch GI Jane.
Yes, instead of using the exception to prove the rule they hold out exceptions as the rule.
Libs use the same tactic to argue against any abortion restrictions based on rare exceptional cases like rape/incest.
Here, one historical anomaly justifies turning it into a rule.
Another used an exception, a Catholic Queen of Spain, as a justification that women working full time and having their kids raised by nannies was, if not the Catholic ideal, just as good an option as staying home.
It hurts my brain to think like these people.
Yeah, its a pretty sad sight when 'trads' are arguing for breastfeeding in the middle of Mass. I guess a let-it-all-hang-out attitude prevails among young traddom.
But what a joke. Having your children raised by strangers so you can enjoy material goods more is Catholic? Heaven forbid these women sacrifice to do whats best for their children. I dont have much hope that even trads will be able to hold back the revolution if our younger generation ends up like that.
There was recently an article on Cathinfo about teenagers and young adults becoming fake Christians, well I have say that we see the same thing with fake Trads. There are a fair amount of people on the internet (including the Remnant sadly, who called the push for the Latin Mass, part of an "international youth movement", OK :laugh1:), who like to boast about the number of young people at TLMs, but I'm somewhat skeptical. I think many have a mere preference for the TLM or attend it for mere sentimental reasons. They don't really want their hearts and minds changed (metanoeo), they want their relativist, liberal, and worldly assumptions and presuppositions baptized.
[/b]
I completely agree with you, and I am glad that others are starting to see it.
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what happened?
The FE feminists took it personally that I defended the traditional position on women in the military, ie there is no good reason for them to serve, short of Joan of Arc, an example they used to justify women going butch GI Jane.
Yes, instead of using the exception to prove the rule they hold out exceptions as the rule.
Libs use the same tactic to argue against any abortion restrictions based on rare exceptional cases like rape/incest.
Here, one historical anomaly justifies turning it into a rule.
Another used an exception, a Catholic Queen of Spain, as a justification that women working full time and having their kids raised by nannies was, if not the Catholic ideal, just as good an option as staying home.
It hurts my brain to think like these people.
Yeah, its a pretty sad sight when 'trads' are arguing for breastfeeding in the middle of Mass. I guess a let-it-all-hang-out attitude prevails among young traddom.
But what a joke. Having your children raised by strangers so you can enjoy material goods more is Catholic? Heaven forbid these women sacrifice to do whats best for their children. I dont have much hope that even trads will be able to hold back the revolution if our younger generation ends up like that.
There was recently an article on Cathinfo about teenagers and young adults becoming fake Christians, well I have say that we see the same thing with fake Trads. There are a fair amount of people on the internet (including the Remnant sadly, who called the push for the Latin Mass, part of an "international youth movement", OK :laugh1:), who like to boast about the number of young people at TLMs, but I'm somewhat skeptical. I think many have a mere preference for the TLM or attend it for mere sentimental reasons. They don't really want their hearts and minds changed (metanoeo), they want their relativist, liberal, and worldly assumptions and presuppositions baptized.
Do you have a link to that article? (btw, are you Baskerville on FE? You share the same avatar as he)
I think you see what I've seen, many of these folks are hobbyists; they are sort of like people who get dressed up for a historical reenactment or a ren fair. The TLM is 'retro', man.
When I came back to Catholicism after being fallen away for 15 years, it was a rough journey. I had to reevaluate myself and my priorities. Now, I wasnt a real bad guy before but I had some bad habits. These kids seem to make frequent conversions like its easy for them. Makes me suspicious of their whole 'conversion' to begin with.
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Yeah, its a pretty sad sight when 'trads' are arguing for breastfeeding in the middle of Mass. I guess a let-it-all-hang-out attitude prevails among young traddom.
I think the image of your statement is burned into my brain, and it's not a pretty thought. There's a lot of truth to the saying, ignorance is bliss. The idea of women condoning breast feeding during Mass, is anything but blissful.
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Yeah, its a pretty sad sight when 'trads' are arguing for breastfeeding in the middle of Mass. I guess a let-it-all-hang-out attitude prevails among young traddom.
I think the image of your statement is burned into my brain, and it's not a pretty thought. There's a lot of truth to the saying, ignorance is bliss. The idea of women condoning breast feeding during Mass, is anything but blissful.
Oh, we've all heard it, and the funny part is they are twisting it to be a 'pro-family' position. Breastfeed wherever, whenever.
And they best they can do is show me some Renaissance paintings of Mary breastfeeding Our Lord as though it is some kind of dogma that you can whip it out wherever you please. Modesty ladies?
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what happened?
The FE feminists took it personally that I defended the traditional position on women in the military, ie there is no good reason for them to serve, short of Joan of Arc, an example they used to justify women going butch GI Jane.
Yes, instead of using the exception to prove the rule they hold out exceptions as the rule.
Libs use the same tactic to argue against any abortion restrictions based on rare exceptional cases like rape/incest.
Here, one historical anomaly justifies turning it into a rule.
Another used an exception, a Catholic Queen of Spain, as a justification that women working full time and having their kids raised by nannies was, if not the Catholic ideal, just as good an option as staying home.
It hurts my brain to think like these people.
Yeah, its a pretty sad sight when 'trads' are arguing for breastfeeding in the middle of Mass. I guess a let-it-all-hang-out attitude prevails among young traddom.
But what a joke. Having your children raised by strangers so you can enjoy material goods more is Catholic? Heaven forbid these women sacrifice to do whats best for their children. I dont have much hope that even trads will be able to hold back the revolution if our younger generation ends up like that.
There was recently an article on Cathinfo about teenagers and young adults becoming fake Christians, well I have say that we see the same thing with fake Trads. There are a fair amount of people on the internet (including the Remnant sadly, who called the push for the Latin Mass, part of an "international youth movement", OK :laugh1:), who like to boast about the number of young people at TLMs, but I'm somewhat skeptical. I think many have a mere preference for the TLM or attend it for mere sentimental reasons. They don't really want their hearts and minds changed (metanoeo), they want their relativist, liberal, and worldly assumptions and presuppositions baptized.
I think this is a pretty pessimistic point of view. Many of the families at my diocesan TLM travel an hour or more to get there and are very committed to tradition and raising their kids in it.
I am watching the teens and young adults from these families and they are dedicated to tradition. I am seeing vocations to traditional orders (No NO vocations). They are going to traditional colleges like St. Thomas Aquinas (do I have the name right?) in California or Christendom College. They are going to the Catholic schools to teach and take their orthodoxy with them.
They will be the ones who help rebuild the Catholic culture.
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what happened?
The FE feminists took it personally that I defended the traditional position on women in the military, ie there is no good reason for them to serve, short of Joan of Arc, an example they used to justify women going butch GI Jane.
Yes, instead of using the exception to prove the rule they hold out exceptions as the rule.
Libs use the same tactic to argue against any abortion restrictions based on rare exceptional cases like rape/incest.
Here, one historical anomaly justifies turning it into a rule.
Another used an exception, a Catholic Queen of Spain, as a justification that women working full time and having their kids raised by nannies was, if not the Catholic ideal, just as good an option as staying home.
It hurts my brain to think like these people.
Yeah, its a pretty sad sight when 'trads' are arguing for breastfeeding in the middle of Mass. I guess a let-it-all-hang-out attitude prevails among young traddom.
But what a joke. Having your children raised by strangers so you can enjoy material goods more is Catholic? Heaven forbid these women sacrifice to do whats best for their children. I dont have much hope that even trads will be able to hold back the revolution if our younger generation ends up like that.
There was recently an article on Cathinfo about teenagers and young adults becoming fake Christians, well I have say that we see the same thing with fake Trads. There are a fair amount of people on the internet (including the Remnant sadly, who called the push for the Latin Mass, part of an "international youth movement", OK :laugh1:), who like to boast about the number of young people at TLMs, but I'm somewhat skeptical. I think many have a mere preference for the TLM or attend it for mere sentimental reasons. They don't really want their hearts and minds changed (metanoeo), they want their relativist, liberal, and worldly assumptions and presuppositions baptized.
I think this is a pretty pessimistic point of view. Many of the families at my diocesan TLM travel an hour or more to get there and are very committed to tradition and raising their kids in it.
I am watching the teens and young adults from these families and they are dedicated to tradition. I am seeing vocations to traditional orders (No NO vocations). They are going to traditional colleges like St. Thomas Aquinas (do I have the name right?) in California or Christendom College. They are going to the Catholic schools to teach and take their orthodoxy with them.
They will be the ones who help rebuild the Catholic culture.
Of course there are a good number of truly Traditional families in indultarian parishes, but when you actually start looking at the majority of "Trads" outside of their parish life, you will find there is little difference between them and NO modernists in terms of philosophy, social-political ideas, and lifestyle. The internet is a great place to see people reveal themselves for what they really are.
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what happened?
The FE feminists took it personally that I defended the traditional position on women in the military, ie there is no good reason for them to serve, short of Joan of Arc, an example they used to justify women going butch GI Jane.
Yes, instead of using the exception to prove the rule they hold out exceptions as the rule.
Libs use the same tactic to argue against any abortion restrictions based on rare exceptional cases like rape/incest.
Here, one historical anomaly justifies turning it into a rule.
Another used an exception, a Catholic Queen of Spain, as a justification that women working full time and having their kids raised by nannies was, if not the Catholic ideal, just as good an option as staying home.
It hurts my brain to think like these people.
I was reading on another forum where there was a discussion on how many "Trads" dont stand by the dogma of No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church (EENS). Most of these "Trads" they were referring to were FE members (without naming names of course).
You cannot be a Traditionalist and believe there is salvation outside the Catholic religion. It's the main dogma that determines weather you're a Traditionalist or a modernist/heretic.
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Perhaps you should give examples of the types of things you are talking about.
Also, just because some people don't appear to be what you think they should, doesn't give you the right to judge them.
Probably by your standards, I still wouldn't be traditional enough. But I have had a long, hard road to get here and I am doing the best I can.
I have only been going to a TLM exclusively for a little less than a year now. There is still so much for me to learn.
For example - as I explained in the thread on modesty - 1st I knew to dress up for Mass, but it entailed pants as I had no skirts. Then I found 1 skirt. Now I have a couple and am working on getting rid of shorts an lower cut blouses. It took me a couple of months to get a mantilla so I could veil. My daughters still wear pants because that is what I can find for their uniforms - especially since they are so slim! I can find pants in 10 slim, but the waist measurements on the skirts are way too big!
It also took me a good 6 months of going to a TLM for me to realize just how bad my kids catechesis was at the local Catholic school. My only excuse is that I am a convert to the Faith myself and had to learn as I went.
We are now teaching catechism on Sunday afternoons because homeschooling is currently not an option.
And in terms of social & political philosophy - cripes! I can barely keep up with some of the arguments. I am learning here as I go!
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what happened?
The FE feminists took it personally that I defended the traditional position on women in the military, ie there is no good reason for them to serve, short of Joan of Arc, an example they used to justify women going butch GI Jane.
Yes, instead of using the exception to prove the rule they hold out exceptions as the rule.
Libs use the same tactic to argue against any abortion restrictions based on rare exceptional cases like rape/incest.
Here, one historical anomaly justifies turning it into a rule.
Another used an exception, a Catholic Queen of Spain, as a justification that women working full time and having their kids raised by nannies was, if not the Catholic ideal, just as good an option as staying home.
It hurts my brain to think like these people.
I was reading on another forum where there was a discussion on how many "Trads" dont stand by the dogma of No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church (EENS). Most of these "Trads" they were referring to were FE members (without naming names of course).
You cannot be a Traditionalist and believe there is salvation outside the Catholic religion. It's the main dogma that determines weather you're a Traditionalist or a modernist/heretic.
Just for clarification, are you saying one has to be a full on Feenyite? I side with the SSPX on that question, so to some of the sedes here I'd be the heretic.
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Perhaps you should give examples of the types of things you are talking about.
Also, just because some people don't appear to be what you think they should, doesn't give you the right to judge them.
Probably by your standards, I still wouldn't be traditional enough. But I have had a long, hard road to get here and I am doing the best I can.
I have only been going to a TLM exclusively for a little less than a year now. There is still so much for me to learn.
For example - as I explained in the thread on modesty - 1st I knew to dress up for Mass, but it entailed pants as I had no skirts. Then I found 1 skirt. Now I have a couple and am working on getting rid of shorts an lower cut blouses. It took me a couple of months to get a mantilla so I could veil. My daughters still wear pants because that is what I can find for their uniforms - especially since they are so slim! I can find pants in 10 slim, but the waist measurements on the skirts are way too big!
It also took me a good 6 months of going to a TLM for me to realize just how bad my kids catechesis was at the local Catholic school. My only excuse is that I am a convert to the Faith myself and had to learn as I went.
We are now teaching catechism on Sunday afternoons because homeschooling is currently not an option.
And in terms of social & political philosophy - cripes! I can barely keep up with some of the arguments. I am learning here as I go!
Sounds like you're doing great, ma'am. As the old saying goes, Rome wasnt built in a day. I just have a hard time with the trads who convert on their own in their late teens. Sure, coming into the traditional faith is wonderful, but it seems way too easy for some of them.
Maybe you dont have as much time to browse around as I do (when youre in the computer world you tend to have alot of time sitting in front of the screen), but alot of these kids will switch their traditionalist position like a pair of pants. I've seen at least a dozen go from Novus Ordo to FSSP to SSPX to Orthodox to ?? like its nothing. Even seen one confused young man go from NO to trad to LDS to Muslim! And with all the different trad camps, its confusing for young minds to decide whos right. Like it sounds for you, I struggled with returning to the faith. The process took years before I was completely willing to submit myself.
The other posters sober look at tradition might seem harsh, but I think its true. I've attended both SSPX and FSSP, and there are some who think being modest means becoming a 'puritan' - nevermind that the modern day descendants of Puritans are atheists who care not a fig for morality.
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what happened?
The FE feminists took it personally that I defended the traditional position on women in the military, ie there is no good reason for them to serve, short of Joan of Arc, an example they used to justify women going butch GI Jane.
Yes, instead of using the exception to prove the rule they hold out exceptions as the rule.
Libs use the same tactic to argue against any abortion restrictions based on rare exceptional cases like rape/incest.
Here, one historical anomaly justifies turning it into a rule.
Another used an exception, a Catholic Queen of Spain, as a justification that women working full time and having their kids raised by nannies was, if not the Catholic ideal, just as good an option as staying home.
It hurts my brain to think like these people.
I was reading on another forum where there was a discussion on how many "Trads" dont stand by the dogma of No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church (EENS). Most of these "Trads" they were referring to were FE members (without naming names of course).
You cannot be a Traditionalist and believe there is salvation outside the Catholic religion. It's the main dogma that determines weather you're a Traditionalist or a modernist/heretic.
Just for clarification, are you saying one has to be a full on Feenyite? I side with the SSPX on that question, so to some of the sedes here I'd be the heretic.
Im not even getting that deep into the issue. What Im talking about concerns practicing protestants etc. continuing in their false religion.
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Perhaps you should give examples of the types of things you are talking about.
Also, just because some people don't appear to be what you think they should, doesn't give you the right to judge them.
Probably by your standards, I still wouldn't be traditional enough. But I have had a long, hard road to get here and I am doing the best I can.
I have only been going to a TLM exclusively for a little less than a year now. There is still so much for me to learn.
For example - as I explained in the thread on modesty - 1st I knew to dress up for Mass, but it entailed pants as I had no skirts. Then I found 1 skirt. Now I have a couple and am working on getting rid of shorts an lower cut blouses. It took me a couple of months to get a mantilla so I could veil. My daughters still wear pants because that is what I can find for their uniforms - especially since they are so slim! I can find pants in 10 slim, but the waist measurements on the skirts are way too big!
It also took me a good 6 months of going to a TLM for me to realize just how bad my kids catechesis was at the local Catholic school. My only excuse is that I am a convert to the Faith myself and had to learn as I went.
We are now teaching catechism on Sunday afternoons because homeschooling is currently not an option.
And in terms of social & political philosophy - cripes! I can barely keep up with some of the arguments. I am learning here as I go!
I was not born and raised a Traditionalist. I was in your shoes once too. It naturally took me time to re-learn my faith and adjust my beliefs (which took me a year or two) and after 6 years Im still working on my behavior and lifestyle. Im not talking about "converts". The people in question here are people who we know have had a LONG time to learn their faith and dont accept it, or who just dont take it seriously and encourage others to do the same.
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what happened?
The FE feminists took it personally that I defended the traditional position on women in the military, ie there is no good reason for them to serve, short of Joan of Arc, an example they used to justify women going butch GI Jane.
Yes, instead of using the exception to prove the rule they hold out exceptions as the rule.
Libs use the same tactic to argue against any abortion restrictions based on rare exceptional cases like rape/incest.
Here, one historical anomaly justifies turning it into a rule.
Another used an exception, a Catholic Queen of Spain, as a justification that women working full time and having their kids raised by nannies was, if not the Catholic ideal, just as good an option as staying home.
It hurts my brain to think like these people.
Yeah, its a pretty sad sight when 'trads' are arguing for breastfeeding in the middle of Mass. I guess a let-it-all-hang-out attitude prevails among young traddom.
But what a joke. Having your children raised by strangers so you can enjoy material goods more is Catholic? Heaven forbid these women sacrifice to do whats best for their children. I dont have much hope that even trads will be able to hold back the revolution if our younger generation ends up like that.
There was recently an article on Cathinfo about teenagers and young adults becoming fake Christians, well I have say that we see the same thing with fake Trads. There are a fair amount of people on the internet (including the Remnant sadly, who called the push for the Latin Mass, part of an "international youth movement", OK :laugh1:), who like to boast about the number of young people at TLMs, but I'm somewhat skeptical. I think many have a mere preference for the TLM or attend it for mere sentimental reasons. They don't really want their hearts and minds changed (metanoeo), they want their relativist, liberal, and worldly assumptions and presuppositions baptized.
I think this is a pretty pessimistic point of view. Many of the families at my diocesan TLM travel an hour or more to get there and are very committed to tradition and raising their kids in it.
Well I'm glad to here that; I now that there are many decent, holy, and pious Trad families, though there are some lukewarm ones as well. However, I'm not necessarily talking about families, but those who are either new to the TLM and Traditional Catholicism, or those who had some contact with Traditional Catholicism before they were young adults, fell away and became liberalized for a time, and then "came back." I don't think I'm pessimistic, just realistic. BTW, Welcome to the Forum.
I am watching the teens and young adults from these families and they are dedicated to tradition. I am seeing vocations to traditional orders (No NO vocations). They are going to traditional colleges like St. Thomas Aquinas (do I have the name right?) in California or Christendom College. They are going to the Catholic schools to teach and take their orthodoxy with them.
Yes, I know that there are some Traditional Catholics at these schools, and that their seminaries are doing fairly well. I'm not saying that true growth is a bad thing. However, we must not put our faith in such numbers or be like "Church growth" Evangelicals and believe that Tradition is organically growing on the basis of such things. A close friend of the editors of Integrity, as well as Dorothy Day, Fr. John Hugo put it this way when people of spoke of the growing "success" of the Church in the post WWII era:
"It is customary for some to take a rosy view of that condition, basing their optimism on tables of statistics concerning the growth of the Catholic population, the income and resources of the Church, the number of communions, etc. But such a method of computation is very unreliable where spiritual realities are concerned. Were it of any value, we could compute the degree of religious fervor from the quantities of grease burnt in votive stands, and our optimism would soar to the very skies. It is quite by other standards that we must judge the spiritual condition of our people -- by their pursuit of holiness..."
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Yeah, its a pretty sad sight when 'trads' are arguing for breastfeeding in the middle of Mass. I guess a let-it-all-hang-out attitude prevails among young traddom.
But what a joke. Having your children raised by strangers so you can enjoy material goods more is Catholic? Heaven forbid these women sacrifice to do whats best for their children. I dont have much hope that even trads will be able to hold back the revolution if our younger generation ends up like that.
There was recently an article on Cathinfo about teenagers and young adults becoming fake Christians, well I have say that we see the same thing with fake Trads. There are a fair amount of people on the internet (including the Remnant sadly, who called the push for the Latin Mass, part of an "international youth movement", OK :laugh1:), who like to boast about the number of young people at TLMs, but I'm somewhat skeptical. I think many have a mere preference for the TLM or attend it for mere sentimental reasons. They don't really want their hearts and minds changed (metanoeo), they want their relativist, liberal, and worldly assumptions and presuppositions baptized.
Do you have a link to that article? (btw, are you Baskerville on FE? You share the same avatar as he)
No, I'm not Bakerville. I used to read FE a few years ago, though was never a member, and in these past few years I've seen it change drastically (not for the better). Here is The Remnant article: The Extraordinary Form? (http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2010-0430-mjm-ef.htm)
I think you see what I've seen, many of these folks are hobbyists; they are sort of like people who get dressed up for a historical reenactment or a ren fair. The TLM is 'retro', man.
When I came back to Catholicism after being fallen away for 15 years, it was a rough journey. I had to reevaluate myself and my priorities. Now, I wasnt a real bad guy before but I had some bad habits. These kids seem to make frequent conversions like its easy for them. Makes me suspicious of their whole 'conversion' to begin with.
I completely agree with you on their 'easy' conversions. I also agree on the hobby aspect as well; the TLM and the Faith then becomes an antique that they can show-off to their friends. For me conversion took a little while as well. I may not have been a terrible person, but I was by no means a good person. Some of my friends were stunned when I became a Traditional Catholic. In essence though, when a person becomes a Traditional Catholic by the grace of God, his/her world-view will drastically change and as a result so will their behavior.
I think the way some people have been brought into Traditional (or kept in Traditional circles) in the last few years is eerily similar to the the way that Neo-Evangelicals evangelize. True conversion/repentance is not required, just a decision for Jesus by attending the TLM, but since it is past 1:00 am, more on that tomorrow.
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Perhaps you should give examples of the types of things you are talking about.
Also, just because some people don't appear to be what you think they should, doesn't give you the right to judge them.
Probably by your standards, I still wouldn't be traditional enough. But I have had a long, hard road to get here and I am doing the best I can.
I have only been going to a TLM exclusively for a little less than a year now. There is still so much for me to learn.
For example - as I explained in the thread on modesty - 1st I knew to dress up for Mass, but it entailed pants as I had no skirts. Then I found 1 skirt. Now I have a couple and am working on getting rid of shorts an lower cut blouses. It took me a couple of months to get a mantilla so I could veil. My daughters still wear pants because that is what I can find for their uniforms - especially since they are so slim! I can find pants in 10 slim, but the waist measurements on the skirts are way too big!
It also took me a good 6 months of going to a TLM for me to realize just how bad my kids catechesis was at the local Catholic school. My only excuse is that I am a convert to the Faith myself and had to learn as I went.
We are now teaching catechism on Sunday afternoons because homeschooling is currently not an option.
And in terms of social & political philosophy - cripes! I can barely keep up with some of the arguments. I am learning here as I go!
we all grow and journey differently-that said, I posted at FE for many yrs and know these people well. Excluding the few good ones still there and many that are here now or MIA, they are feel good NeoCaths.
true, I am not personally friends and do not physically see them daily, fine, but they do not see the people and know them personally they want to deride and attack either, so qid pro...
It is a feel good, juvenile and indifferent attitude there....and make excuses for some, but call on others to be attacked, bombed,etc....
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what happened?
The FE feminists took it personally that I defended the traditional position on women in the military, ie there is no good reason for them to serve, short of Joan of Arc, an example they used to justify women going butch GI Jane.
Yes, instead of using the exception to prove the rule they hold out exceptions as the rule.
Libs use the same tactic to argue against any abortion restrictions based on rare exceptional cases like rape/incest.
Here, one historical anomaly justifies turning it into a rule.
Another used an exception, a Catholic Queen of Spain, as a justification that women working full time and having their kids raised by nannies was, if not the Catholic ideal, just as good an option as staying home.
It hurts my brain to think like these people.
Yeah, its a pretty sad sight when 'trads' are arguing for breastfeeding in the middle of Mass. I guess a let-it-all-hang-out attitude prevails among young traddom.
But what a joke. Having your children raised by strangers so you can enjoy material goods more is Catholic? Heaven forbid these women sacrifice to do whats best for their children. I dont have much hope that even trads will be able to hold back the revolution if our younger generation ends up like that.
There was recently an article on Cathinfo about teenagers and young adults becoming fake Christians, well I have say that we see the same thing with fake Trads. There are a fair amount of people on the internet (including the Remnant sadly, who called the push for the Latin Mass, part of an "international youth movement", OK :laugh1:), who like to boast about the number of young people at TLMs, but I'm somewhat skeptical. I think many have a mere preference for the TLM or attend it for mere sentimental reasons. They don't really want their hearts and minds changed (metanoeo), they want their relativist, liberal, and worldly assumptions and presuppositions baptized.
I think this is a pretty pessimistic point of view. Many of the families at my diocesan TLM travel an hour or more to get there and are very committed to tradition and raising their kids in it.
I am watching the teens and young adults from these families and they are dedicated to tradition. I am seeing vocations to traditional orders (No NO vocations). They are going to traditional colleges like St. Thomas Aquinas (do I have the name right?) in California or Christendom College. They are going to the Catholic schools to teach and take their orthodoxy with them.
They will be the ones who help rebuild the Catholic culture.
Listening recently to a talk by Williamson, who notes how some boys in Paris, part of SSPX and going to a Society school, are purposely leading a double life....so, your examples of vocations and going to school, etc...does not necessarily mean they are leading the charge for change...Americanism, Republican Partyism,etc is alive and well in Trad cirlces, so, no real change in thinking and much the same old same old...good reasons for pessimism, though as always, hope....real hope.
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The idea of women condoning breast feeding during Mass, is anything but blissful.
It can be done perfectly modestly.
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it is still likely to cause disruption, esp in packed Church, woman should get up and leave.....
Increasingly, I think the jews had the right idea in OT, separate court for women/children, with the priests and men(domestic priests) in inner courts resp....
This rings tru in Trad circles, but most esp in NO.....
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Perhaps you should give examples of the types of things you are talking about.
Also, just because some people don't appear to be what you think they should, doesn't give you the right to judge them.
Probably by your standards, I still wouldn't be traditional enough. But I have had a long, hard road to get here and I am doing the best I can.
I have only been going to a TLM exclusively for a little less than a year now. There is still so much for me to learn.
For example - as I explained in the thread on modesty - 1st I knew to dress up for Mass, but it entailed pants as I had no skirts. Then I found 1 skirt. Now I have a couple and am working on getting rid of shorts an lower cut blouses. It took me a couple of months to get a mantilla so I could veil. My daughters still wear pants because that is what I can find for their uniforms - especially since they are so slim! I can find pants in 10 slim, but the waist measurements on the skirts are way too big!
It also took me a good 6 months of going to a TLM for me to realize just how bad my kids catechesis was at the local Catholic school. My only excuse is that I am a convert to the Faith myself and had to learn as I went.
We are now teaching catechism on Sunday afternoons because homeschooling is currently not an option.
And in terms of social & political philosophy - cripes! I can barely keep up with some of the arguments. I am learning here as I go!
The bolded is the root difference between you and the FE members of whom these posters speak. Some of them are very determined that they need to change nothing in order to be "trad". They reject modernism verbally but use "culture" as an excuse to hang on to it in practice. You don't seem to have that mentality and that sets you apart, even as a new trad. If we all thought the bolded above towards our Faith as sincerely as you do, we would be much better off. :)
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The idea of women condoning breast feeding during Mass, is anything but blissful.
It can be done perfectly modestly.
That is a distraction people DO NOT need.
Plus if the baby needs a diaper changed, why not just lay him out on the pew and change it right there? There are women's restrooms for a reason!
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The idea of women condoning breast feeding during Mass, is anything but blissful.
It can be done perfectly modestly.
During Mass, breastfeeding an infant modestly is not the issue, the issue is doing it discreetly and this is better done in the crying room, or weather permitting, the vehicle you came in. Or if there is no other option, the ladies room. It doesn't take a PhD. to realize breastfeeding an infant during Mass is going to cause a a few male parishioners an occasion of sin. And no, it's not their fault, God made men visually inclined for a reason.
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The idea of women condoning breast feeding during Mass, is anything but blissful.
It can be done perfectly modestly.
During Mass, breastfeeding an infant modestly is not the issue, the issue is doing it discreetly and this is better done in the crying room, or weather permitting, the vehicle you came in. Or if there is no other option, the ladies room. It doesn't take a PhD. to realize breastfeeding an infant during Mass is going to cause a a few male parishioners an occasion of sin. And no, it's not their fault, God made men visually inclined for a reason.
If it's done discreetly, no one else even need know about it. I've seen it, and I only knew it was happening because I have nursed and I know the moves! There was nothing to see.
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I say under NO circuмstances should a mother breastfeed in the Ladie's Room! :barf:
Except at a place like Nordstrum, with a seperate, nice space for taking care of infants-
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The idea of women condoning breast feeding during Mass, is anything but blissful.
It can be done perfectly modestly.
During Mass, breastfeeding an infant modestly is not the issue, the issue is doing it discreetly and this is better done in the crying room, or weather permitting, the vehicle you came in. Or if there is no other option, the ladies room. It doesn't take a PhD. to realize breastfeeding an infant during Mass is going to cause a a few male parishioners an occasion of sin. And no, it's not their fault, God made men visually inclined for a reason.
If it's done discreetly, no one else even need know about it. I've seen it, and I only knew it was happening because I have nursed and I know the moves! There was nothing to see.
To me it just doesn't seem appropriate, modest or not, known or not. I am a huge advocate for breastfeeding and breastfed exclusively for baby's first year and 50% for his second but there are many good and holy actions that just aren't appropriate for the Mass environment and this strikes me as one of them. I wouldn't think to do it and am rather surprised that it's even an argument.
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The idea of women condoning breast feeding during Mass, is anything but blissful.
It can be done perfectly modestly.
During Mass, breastfeeding an infant modestly is not the issue, the issue is doing it discreetly and this is better done in the crying room, or weather permitting, the vehicle you came in. Or if there is no other option, the ladies room. It doesn't take a PhD. to realize breastfeeding an infant during Mass is going to cause a a few male parishioners an occasion of sin. And no, it's not their fault, God made men visually inclined for a reason.
If it's done discreetly, no one else even need know about it. I've seen it, and I only knew it was happening because I have nursed and I know the moves! There was nothing to see.
I made a general statement not a blanket statement. I am sure that there are some women who can breastfeed so discreetly their husbands' haven't a clue. That being said, even though the Blessed Mother nursed our Lord, breastfeeding should be done somewhere else other then the church pew during the Holy Sacrifice of Mass.
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well put!
now, that said, here is another example of the tone, etc at FE, from the now re-Working forum:
http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3433163.0.html
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I agree with you, Cheryl. Breastfeeding should not be done in public - not in this day and age. And it certainly should not be done during Holy Mass in front of everyone. Sorry to say, it can be an occasion of sin to some. I am sorry if this offends anyone here, but a fact is a fact.
I don't think Our Blessed Mother would have made a big display of it. She was modesty personified.
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It seems to me that breastfeeding should be done like so many other things in public: with discretion and due care to ensure privacy and modesty. Sitting in the very back of the church or in the cry room with a blanket covering oneself and the baby is thoughtful and polite towards others in your midst. It's only an issue when the mother insists that she should be able to open her blouse anywhere and nurse her baby. Just because she's nursing doesn't make breast exposure modest.
We're all required by standards of common courtesy to go out of our way not to offend or inconvenience other people when out in public as much as a possible. This is true with sneezing, coughing or blowing one's nose as well.
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I agree with you, Cheryl. Breastfeeding should not be done in public - not in this day and age. And it certainly should not be done during Holy Mass in front of everyone.
It doesn't need to be in front of anyone. If I were going to do it (and I never did, incidentally - I always fed in the vestibule) I would sit in the back pew if it was available.
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It seems to me that breastfeeding should be done like so many other things in public: with discretion and due care to ensure privacy and modesty. Sitting in the very back of the church or in the cry room with a blanket covering oneself and the baby is thoughtful and polite towards others in your midst. It's only an issue when the mother insists that she should be able to open her blouse anywhere and nurse her baby. Just because she's nursing doesn't make breast exposure modest.
I agree.
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This is exactly what I am talking about. It isnt just Mass, but the idea of public breastfeeding period. I've seen women whip em out in a restaurant. You think men dont notice this? Its an occasion of sin for them.
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This is exactly what I am talking about. It isnt just Mass, but the idea of public breastfeeding period. I've seen women whip em out in a restaurant. You think men dont notice this? Its an occasion of sin for them.
"Whipping 'em out" is not what I am defending, and is totally unnecessary.
Perhaps you only ever notice it when they're "whipped out", but there may have been plenty of instances of it taking place completely unbeknownst to you, Robert.
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This is exactly what I am talking about. It isnt just Mass, but the idea of public breastfeeding period. I've seen women whip em out in a restaurant. You think men dont notice this? Its an occasion of sin for them.
Thank you, Robert ! I just ditched a post that said basically what you wrote thinking why should I even bother.
The fact is that it can be and has been an occasion of sin to men. We are living in a highly sɛҳuąƖly charged time. What is the old saying? "Discretion is the better part of valor"?
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This is exactly what I am talking about. It isnt just Mass, but the idea of public breastfeeding period. I've seen women whip em out in a restaurant. You think men dont notice this? Its an occasion of sin for them.
"Whipping 'em out" is not what I am defending, and is totally unnecessary.
Perhaps you only ever notice it when they're "whipped out", but there may have been plenty of instances of it taking place completely unbeknownst to you, Robert.
Well, in that case then I wouldnt be able to say much about it then. But I have seen some trads defend the wherever, whenever breastfeeding up to and including Mass and every public place under the sun.
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Or is it "Valor is the better part of discretion"?
One or the other, but you get my point (I hope :wink:).
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I've seen women whip em out
RdB, sounds like an idea you might want to take to Hollyweird, you know, another remake, but with a slightly different take of, The Gunfight At The OK Corral. :roll-laugh1:
But all kidding aside, the men on the forum and everywhere else have enough difficulties daily trying to avoid occasions of sin because of television, billboards, magazines, the latest women's fashions, etc., why add anymore stress on them by breastfeeding in public, especially in church?
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I think common sense is in order.
Yes, breastfeeding is natural.
Yes, if you can be discreet (you always can), please do so.
I could technically eat with loud noises and make a mess all over myself while I'm at a restaurant -- but it would be advisable for me NOT to do so. I could just as easily eat with my mouth closed and keep my face free of food.
It's called courtesy, charity, and consideration for others. Some people are strangers to the concept, sad to say.
Any woman that claims that self-exhibition is necessary for breastfeeding is FULL OF IT. You can unfasten your nursing bra UNDER YOUR SHIRT and place the baby under your shirt. If your clothes are too tight, you need to find other selections for the time period when your baby is breastfeeding.
A blanket is not expensive. If you don't have one, check out garage sales. You can get one for a buck or two, or even fifty cents for a baby blanket. I'm sure if you are that poor, someone would be happy to lend/give you one. Sheets/blankets are simply not that expensive, especially a small one to cover one's chest while breastfeeding.
Matthew
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The fact is that it can be and has been an occasion of sin to men. We are living in a highly sɛҳuąƖly charged time.
Not just a question for Alexandria...
What do you see exactly as the occassion of sin? ... actually revealing something in an attempt to bf in public ... OR merely the act of breastfeeding (with a nursing cover perhaps) as it encourages some men to think about the woman's chest?
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Quite right, Matthew.
Discreet breastfeeding is possible, and perhaps more common than those who only ever see immodest breastfeeding realise - because they just don't notice it.
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The fact is that it can be and has been an occasion of sin to men. We are living in a highly sɛҳuąƖly charged time.
Not just a question for Alexandria...
What do you see exactly as the occassion of sin? ... actually revealing something in an attempt to bf in public ... OR merely the act of breastfeeding (with a nursing cover perhaps) as it encourages some men to think about the woman's chest?
Both.
I have sat in on discussions about this many times with men. Ask them.
I realize being a traditional often shields us from the mainstream smut and pornography, but this really isn't a good time for women to declare their "breastfeeding in public" rights.
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Thanks!
I don't bf in public unless I have to (which is thankfully very rare) but honestly hadn't considered that even doing so in a covered manner might be problematic for some.
fwiw, our chapel's cry room isn't always void of men ... dad's do use the room from time to time as well. At some times, the back pew in the chapel might be a less visible place to bf.
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The fact is that it can be and has been an occasion of sin to men. We are living in a highly sɛҳuąƖly charged time.
Not just a question for Alexandria...
What do you see exactly as the occassion of sin? ... actually revealing something in an attempt to bf in public ... OR merely the act of breastfeeding (with a nursing cover perhaps) as it encourages some men to think about the woman's chest?
Both.
I have sat in on discussions about this many times with men. Ask them.
I realize being a traditional often shields us from the mainstream smut and pornography, but this really isn't a good time for women to declare their "breastfeeding in public" rights.
Delicately put Alexandria, good job. Mater, I've noticed that the majority of the men who have responded in a negative way to the subject of public breastfeeding in this thread are unmarried.
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I would guess that a man who cannot be aware of a woman discreetly breastfeeding without having impure thoughts, would probably also have issues with the sight of a pregnant woman or a woman with children.
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Good point, Clare.
This day and age puts forward an activity that is normally less than 0.25% of human activity, and makes one's whole lifestyle revolve around it!
As if everything is either sex, something leading up to it, or something that makes it possible in some way. Give me a break!
It's hard to think about the concept of "marriage" these days without immediately thinking about the marital debt, the way the world has totally focused on sex.
In reality, we should think about discipline, teaching children, practicing the virtue of patience, doing hard work, a noisy house, children playing with toys and/or fighting, family hugs, the spouses working side by side, doing dishes and other chores, praying the Rosary together, etc. because those things take up WAY MORE TIME percentage wise than anything that happens in private between husband and wife.
Nevertheless, especially when I was single, those everyday things were NOT what I first thought of when someone said the word "marriage".
Maybe it's because I have watched TV and movies in the past (and listened to pop music) which placed those thoughts in my subconscious? Who knows.
Matthew
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Nevertheless, especially when I was single, those everyday things were NOT what I first thought of when someone said the word "marriage".
Without sex there is no marriage so I don't think it's unnatural.
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I would guess that a man who cannot be aware of a woman discreetly breastfeeding without having impure thoughts, would probably also have issues with the sight of a pregnant woman or a woman with children.
Depends on the woman and how "discreet" she is being.
A beautiful buxom woman shouldn't be baring her breast in public.
And let's not forget the poor adolescent boys out there.
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Depends on the woman and how "discreet" she is being.
A beautiful buxom woman shouldn't be baring her breast in public.
This is the thing. A woman does not need to bare a breast to breastfeed. It can be done without displaying anything.
That some women don't bother being discreet, does not mean that it is always done indiscreetly.
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Depends on the woman and how "discreet" she is being.
A beautiful buxom woman shouldn't be baring her breast in public.
This is the thing. A woman does not need to bare a breast to breastfeed. It can be done without displaying anything.
That some women don't bother being discreet, does not mean that it is always done indiscreetly.
It doesn't matter that it can be done discreetly, it's not appropriate in every public circuмstance, barring emergency-ish situations of course, I know they happen. I had to nurse on a mall bench once. I always dressed in such a way that it could be done discreetly but public nursing still wasn't my preference. I would not do it just to "prove a point", which I know very well is the attitude of a very high percentage of adamant public nursers. I have fought this many times with non-trads, didn't know it was an issue among trads!
I think it is perfectly natural to see breastfeeding/pregnancy/children, and possibly, although not necessarily, end up thinking of sex. And there's nothing wrong with that. I think it's crazy puritan to think it's so terrible for the mind to go there. Trying to fault men for thinking of sex is a very tired excuse for women to continue doing as they please with no regard.
Women didn't start going to the backrooms to nurse because it was seen as a terrible thing and they were being suppressed. If that were the case then I would agree...come to the front rooms! Defy the awful tyranny of those who "despise" breastfeeding! But that is not the case. I think that idea is feminist propaganda to get women out there fighting for their "rights".
I know from my own experience with countless trad women that women who are truly modest at heart, not just in clothing, prefer to go to the backroom when in public or mixed company. They prefer it because there is a sense of the sacred in nursing. They prefer it because they don't have to be uncomfortable or cause even the possibility of someone else being uncomfortable.
Besides who wants to mess with a freaking blanket? My son refused to keep them on. Why stubbornly sit in mixed company fighting a blanket, making a big deal out of nursing, being on edge wondering who is thinking what, hoping you aren't tempting anyone, ready to grab the blanket at any minute and throw it back on before someone catches a glimpse as the baby unlatches. Ugh, what a terrible experience! No wonder no one wants to nurse anymore. Just go to a back room, enjoy the love of your baby, enjoy the little break, it's such a short time we have with them.
Nursing was always a private, intimate moment between my baby and me; it's me at my most vulnerable, as a mother, as a wife, as a woman, why would I treat that like pearls before swine?
Bottom line, seeing breastfeeding can be a very sensual experience for a man, even if it's discreet, they still know what's going on. They don't have to physically see anything. So is a sexily clad pregnant body, which incidentally also doesn't have to bare skin to be sexy. Do adamant public nursers not have husbands to testify!? I have never understood the blind refusal to accept, right from the horse's mouth, that this is a sensitive topic for men. It's real, women need to deal with it and dress or act accordingly.
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The fact is that it can be and has been an occasion of sin to men. We are living in a highly sɛҳuąƖly charged time.
Not just a question for Alexandria...
What do you see exactly as the occassion of sin? ... actually revealing something in an attempt to bf in public ... OR merely the act of breastfeeding (with a nursing cover perhaps) as it encourages some men to think about the woman's chest?
Both.
I have sat in on discussions about this many times with men. Ask them.
I realize being a traditional often shields us from the mainstream smut and pornography, but this really isn't a good time for women to declare their "breastfeeding in public" rights.
And thats what it boils down to, I think. Ladies, when you do this around men they cant help but notice. It is often quite loud so its hard to completely put it out of your mind. Believe me, I am not against breast feeding publicly in certain situations but we shouldnt fall in the feminist propaganda version of it where woman should be allowed, everywhere and always.
Boy did I steer this off topic! Fisheaters what? Sorry about that Matt.
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I would guess that a man who cannot be aware of a woman discreetly breastfeeding without having impure thoughts, would probably also have issues with the sight of a pregnant woman or a woman with children.
Probably not, but in this day and age it wouldn't surprise me if some men have a fetish about pregnant women. The problem with breastfeeding in public does seem to be a problem more so in the U.S. then in any other country. But sodomizing little boys, raping little girls or necrophilla shouldn't be a thought to anyone either, but it happens. We live in a sick society that gets sicker every day. What can we expect to happen when more and more people follow the ways of satan then the ways of God? :cry:
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While I don't disagree that the U.S. is obsessed with female body parts and shouldn't be .... I have a problem with Europe and other countries being held up as an example of how people should behave regarding bare breasts. They have been showing sɛҳuąƖ acts on T.V. for decades in Europe.
In Brazil their public beach nudity is famous the world over. These are places where the sacred left their lives decades ago and they are not better than we are because women feel they can breast feed without calling undue attention to themselves.
I also disagree with the idea put forth very often about how breasts are basically a new invention as a focal point for men's interests. I think they've always been an erogenous zone and considered to be desireable and appealing by men. That they have a dual function to nourish and bond with babies does not negate this fact.
Just read the Song of Songs (or Canticle of Canticles) in the Old Testament. Every virtue of the young bride is described, including her breasts.
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I would guess that a man who cannot be aware of a woman discreetly breastfeeding without having impure thoughts, would probably also have issues with the sight of a pregnant woman or a woman with children.
Wow I actually agree with you for once!
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Depends on the woman and how "discreet" she is being.
A beautiful buxom woman shouldn't be baring her breast in public.
This is the thing. A woman does not need to bare a breast to breastfeed. It can be done without displaying anything.
That some women don't bother being discreet, does not mean that it is always done indiscreetly.
:applause:
:wine-drinking:
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It is definitely a tactic of feminism to accuse men of being perverted for having reactions that can only be considered normal. Feminism is full of heads you win/tails I lose propositions. If a man complains he's branded as uptight, a prude or worse, but at the slightest pretext he will be suspected and accused of wrongdoing.
I recall when being shown around the University of Chicago being disgusted with fact that dorms had coed bathrooms. I imagine if a student complained too much he'd be heavily criticized, but no doubt a great deal of suspicion was directed towards the male students in general because of that arrangement.
Of course, that's a very sick arrangement, but I think the way to approach these issues is to ask if a 12 or 13 year old boy can handle it. If not - then it shouldn't be done. Casting aspersion on men as a class for having perverted thoughts or saying that it wouldn't only "perverted men" would have a problem is just that same sort of no-win feminist proposition.
Poor Clare is in the UK I just can't imagine what the cuмulative psychological effect of being exposed to that liberal left state gone made must be.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/sony-forced-to-disassociate-itself-with-eco-fascist-group.html
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Tele
You make more than a few good points. :wink:
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It is definitely a tactic of feminism to accuse men of being perverted for having reactions that can only be considered normal.
Usually if you argue against feminism, in even a benign fashion, they have a reflective 'sɛҳuąƖ hangup' defense, sort of their version of the 'Authoritarian Personality'.
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It is definitely a tactic of feminism to accuse men of being perverted for having reactions that can only be considered normal.
Usually if you argue against feminism, in even a benign fashion, they have a reflective 'sɛҳuąƖ hangup' defense, sort of their version of the 'Authoritarian Personality'.
Yes it is Marxist in inspiration.
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It has nothing to do with "this day and age". Humans have always been highly sɛҳuąƖ beings and breastfeeding and pregnancy have always highlighted the unique beauty of the woman. I have no doubt that men throughout the ages have found it to be a nearly irresistible mystery.
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It has nothing to do with "this day and age". Humans have always been highly sɛҳuąƖ beings and breastfeeding and pregnancy have always highlighted the unique beauty of the woman. I have no doubt that men throughout the ages have found it to be a nearly irresistible mystery.
That is true, but it is more, how shall I put this, predominant and uncontrolled these days. People are doing things today that would have landed you in a psychiatric hospital in saner days.
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It has nothing to do with "this day and age". Humans have always been highly sɛҳuąƖ beings and breastfeeding and pregnancy have always highlighted the unique beauty of the woman. I have no doubt that men throughout the ages have found it to be a nearly irresistible mystery.
That is true, but it is more, how shall I put this, predominant and uncontrolled these days. People are doing things today that would have landed you in a psychiatric hospital in saner days.
Ok, so what about the "normal" men who are Catholic or who uphold a sense of morality, are very grounded in their Faith(s), happy in their marriages, concupiscence quelled (so to speak) who also state that breastfeeding and/or pregnancy can have a sensual effect on them, even if they don't will it? I'm sorry but this is not something that can be swept under the rug as a crazy person's syndrome. Being moved by a woman's exceptional glow and beauty while bf or pregnant is not by definition, a fetish. It could become one, but in and of itself, it is not.
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This is much more interesting to me than talking about FE. :smile:
Am I right or wrong that the comments here are shaping up to prove that there is a difference between how a married man would react vs. a single man?
There are some public places that I've never felt inclined to leave in order to nurse a baby ... an OB or perhaps Ped office waiting area, for example.
I've also never felt inclined to move to another room when those present (say, a gathering in someone's home) are all married couples -- generally all with small children as well.
Would this still hold as OK behavior?
EDIT TO ADD: I just re-read the post above me and apparantly the "happy in their marriages" part slipped past me the first time :sad:
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How would the sight of a discreetly breastfeeding woman affect a man who comes from a large family, and grew up witnessing his mother breastfeeding his younger siblings?
I would guess he'd be able to take it in his stride.
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I would guess that a man who cannot be aware of a woman discreetly breastfeeding without having impure thoughts, would probably also have issues with the sight of a pregnant woman or a woman with children.
Wow I actually agree with you for once!
:dancing: Thank you.
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Just read the Song of Songs (or Canticle of Canticles) in the Old Testament. Every virtue of the young bride is described, including her breasts.
Have a feeling the breasts there described are actually not literal, but meaning something else....but, that said, I dont read that book...far be it from me to say waht is and is not scripture, I have 0 authority on that, but the book is not literal often and rather scandalous....inappropriate in salvation history....
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Just read the Song of Songs (or Canticle of Canticles) in the Old Testament. Every virtue of the young bride is described, including her breasts.
Have a feeling the breasts there described are actually not literal, but meaning something else....but, that said, I dont read that book...far be it from me to say waht is and is not scripture, I have 0 authority on that, but the book is not literal often and rather scandalous....inappropriate in salvation history....
I just finished to read the Songs (at least it was the second time) a couple of days ago... one question... what is scandalous and inappopriate in salvation history"?
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Frankly, I'm not a fan of the Canticle of Canticles myself. But I remembered the reference and while I agree that it's highly symbolic, I think there is some significance to it's existence in the Holy Bible.
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This is much more interesting to me than talking about FE. :smile:
Am I right or wrong that the comments here are shaping up to prove that there is a difference between how a married man would react vs. a single man?
There are some public places that I've never felt inclined to leave in order to nurse a baby ... an OB or perhaps Ped office waiting area, for example.
I've also never felt inclined to move to another room when those present (say, a gathering in someone's home) are all married couples -- generally all with small children as well.
Would this still hold as OK behavior?
EDIT TO ADD: I just re-read the post above me and apparently the "happy in their marriages" part slipped past me the first time :sad:
I think married men are expected to be less sensitive but that's why I asked if these women have husbands to testify. Mine reacted in such a way that I don't believe married men are "exempt" from noticing the sensual side. It didn't affect him all the time, but at times it did. And I actually felt sexiest when pregnant and bf too so I understood where he was coming from. There is a vibrancy that many women feel at that time that can be very attractive.
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How would the sight of a discreetly breastfeeding woman affect a man who comes from a large family, and grew up witnessing his mother breastfeeding his younger siblings?
I would guess he'd be able to take it in his stride.
It may not affect every man, but it does affect enough of them, or it may affect someone at one time and not another. I personally would rather not do a survey before every nursing to investigate who would be bothered by it, not that they would admit it anyway, that would be rather embarrassing to admit in public.
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It has nothing to do with "this day and age". Humans have always been highly sɛҳuąƖ beings and breastfeeding and pregnancy have always highlighted the unique beauty of the woman. I have no doubt that men throughout the ages have found it to be a nearly irresistible mystery.
That is true, but it is more, how shall I put this, predominant and uncontrolled these days. People are doing things today that would have landed you in a psychiatric hospital in saner days.
Ok, so what about the "normal" men who are Catholic or who uphold a sense of morality, are very grounded in their Faith(s), happy in their marriages, concupiscence quelled (so to speak) who also state that breastfeeding and/or pregnancy can have a sensual effect on them, even if they don't will it? I'm sorry but this is not something that can be swept under the rug as a crazy person's syndrome. Being moved by a woman's exceptional glow and beauty while bf or pregnant is not by definition, a fetish. It could become one, but in and of itself, it is not.
You have the unique ability of putting words in someone's mouth.
I wasn't sweeping anything under the rug as a "crazy person's syndrome". If you go back and read all of my posts on this subject, you would see that.
A man is a man. Period. Do you think being traditional removes the effects of original sin in a man? Turns him into an angel? St. Alphonsus de Liguori was beset with impure thoughts and temptations when he was in his eighties!
Don't breastfeed except in private. Plus, I have seen no evidence that it is healthier either. The children in traditional chapels seem to be more sickly than "regular" children. Whether this is because of the health food obsession that makes the rounds in trad chapels, the absence of vaccinations, or breastfeeding - maybe a combination of all three - but they do seem to be not as healthy.
I will now await the assaults. Good thing I brought my buckler and shield with today. :boxer:
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I think married men are expected to be less sensitive but that's why I asked if these women have husbands to testify.
I do and I did!
He can tell you himself if he so desires, but in summary it was only possibly bothersome to him (as a single man) in a roundabout manner -- baby+mom = married woman = I wish I were married ...
This, of course, seemed mostly a symptom of living in the "I wish I were married" mindset 24/7.
Mine reacted in such a way that I don't believe married men are "exempt" from noticing the sensual side. It didn't affect him all the time, but at times it did. And I actually felt sexiest when pregnant and bf too so I understood where he was coming from. There is a vibrancy that many women feel at that time that can be very attractive.
I can also see that a married man would react differently to seeing his wife bf vs. a stranger... especially if his wife feels most feminine when doing so (I'm quite the opposite).
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Plus, I have seen no evidence that it is healthier either. The children in traditional chapels seem to be more sickly than "regular" children. Whether this is because of the health food obsession that makes the rounds in trad chapels, the absence of vaccinations, or breastfeeding - maybe a combination of all three - but they do seem to be not as healthy.
That's interesting that you see them as actually being more sickly ... I wonder why ... I've not personally noticed any patterns good or bad, but I'm also never around many children (except my own) other than at church.
PS. If I had to rate my reasons for breastfeeding, #1 would probably be the affordability of it. : )
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Lack of vaccinations = children more sickly?
That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while. As if vaccinations contain some kind of vitamins or make you more healthy?
Alexandria, the ONLY way a non-vaccinated child would be more sickly, would be if the child ACTUALLY CONTRACTED one of the diseases they vaccinate against. And even then, unless the disease involved permanent damage to one's health (usually they do not), there would be no difference between the children you see and the vaccinated ones.
And how does health food make children more unhealthy? I don't get that one. Maybe it's debated what constitutes healthy food -- if they were feeding their children a vegetarian (or vegan) diet, that would certainly have an affect on their health. But that's not true health food! If they eat a variety of foods that God made, that's healthy.
Matthew
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I had few and am heading toward the big 4-0 this May.....gee, how deprived I now feel, lacking massive mercury and what not....
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Processed food is not healthy. Period. It might not kill you right away, but it certainly causes problems. Those who can afford alternatives should do so as often as possible.
Eating healthy isn't a "Yes" or "No" proposition -- there are an infinite degrees in eating healthy.
We buy processed chicken sandwiches (or hamburgers) for $1 at a drive-thru on the way home from Mass every Sunday. We live too far away to make it home, and it's hard to bring "real food" with us without a microwave around. Sure, we could bring frozen food and use the church's microwave, but how would that be any different (health/cost) than buying fast food?
Anyhow, we try to eat healthy as much as possible, while forgiving ourselves a few exceptions. It's not like if you can't "100% healthy" you should just "give up" and take up smoking, alcoholism, give up exercise, and eat 100% processed food, and eat lots of foods with MSG and Aspartame. I think that would be borderline suicidal. Can a Catholic "give up" in good conscience and not take care of his health AT ALL? I don't think so, not without sin.
Matthew
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Here is a picture of what chicken "meat" looks like after it's been processed. They have to soak it in ammonia (to kill the bacteria), and add artificial flavor AND artificial color to make it look somewhat normal on your bun.
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Lack of vaccinations = children more sickly?
That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while. As if vaccinations contain some kind of vitamins or make you more healthy?
Alexandria, the ONLY way a non-vaccinated child would be more sickly, would be if the child ACTUALLY CONTRACTED one of the diseases they vaccinate against. And even then, unless the disease involved permanent damage to one's health (usually they do not), there would be no difference between the children you see and the vaccinated ones.
And how does health food make children more unhealthy? I don't get that one. Maybe it's debated what constitutes healthy food -- if they were feeding their children a vegetarian (or vegan) diet, that would certainly have an affect on their health. But that's not true health food! If they eat a variety of foods that God made, that's healthy.
Matthew
Matthew, read my post again.
I wrote: Whether this is because of the health food obsession that makes the rounds in trad chapels, the absence of vaccinations, or breastfeeding - maybe a combination of all three - but they do seem to be not as healthy.
All I know is this. My generation was bottle-fed, raised on normal food, and vaccinated (and discipline too by the way). We were not as sickly. Whether that was because of one, two or all of the above, I know not. I am merely stating facts.
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Were you really bottle-fed, Alexandria? I certainly was, but I'm pretty sure my mother was not.
I was vaccinated too, but the schedule given to me is only a fraction of what kids today are given.
I was probably a bit healthier as a kid than my average peer, but I think it mostly to do with not being in daycare.
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Is this an attempt to see how many topics we can discuss in a single thread? :smirk:
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The meat in that picture looks more like ice cream. :laugh1:
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It has nothing to do with "this day and age". Humans have always been highly sɛҳuąƖ beings and breastfeeding and pregnancy have always highlighted the unique beauty of the woman. I have no doubt that men throughout the ages have found it to be a nearly irresistible mystery.
That is true, but it is more, how shall I put this, predominant and uncontrolled these days. People are doing things today that would have landed you in a psychiatric hospital in saner days.
Ok, so what about the "normal" men who are Catholic or who uphold a sense of morality, are very grounded in their Faith(s), happy in their marriages, concupiscence quelled (so to speak) who also state that breastfeeding and/or pregnancy can have a sensual effect on them, even if they don't will it? I'm sorry but this is not something that can be swept under the rug as a crazy person's syndrome. Being moved by a woman's exceptional glow and beauty while bf or pregnant is not by definition, a fetish. It could become one, but in and of itself, it is not.
You have the unique ability of putting words in someone's mouth.
I wasn't sweeping anything under the rug as a "crazy person's syndrome". If you go back and read all of my posts on this subject, you would see that.
A man is a man. Period. Do you think being traditional removes the effects of original sin in a man? Turns him into an angel? St. Alphonsus de Liguori was beset with impure thoughts and temptations when he was in his eighties!
Don't breastfeed except in private. Plus, I have seen no evidence that it is healthier either. The children in traditional chapels seem to be more sickly than "regular" children. Whether this is because of the health food obsession that makes the rounds in trad chapels, the absence of vaccinations, or breastfeeding - maybe a combination of all three - but they do seem to be not as healthy.
I will now await the assaults. Good thing I brought my buckler and shield with today. :boxer:
Not sure why you are upset with me...You repeated everything I've said in my posts...I absolutely don't believe being traditional makes a man an angel, that was my whole point...my point towards you was that it isn't necessarily a matter of psychiatric issues giving men a hard time with finding nursing/pregnant women attractive. It's normal reaction for them, not something they should be berated for. You brought up psychiatric issues causing it and I defended that it isn't a psychiatric issue...was that not your meaning?
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Lack of vaccinations = children more sickly?
That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while. As if vaccinations contain some kind of vitamins or make you more healthy?
Alexandria, the ONLY way a non-vaccinated child would be more sickly, would be if the child ACTUALLY CONTRACTED one of the diseases they vaccinate against. And even then, unless the disease involved permanent damage to one's health (usually they do not), there would be no difference between the children you see and the vaccinated ones.
And how does health food make children more unhealthy? I don't get that one. Maybe it's debated what constitutes healthy food -- if they were feeding their children a vegetarian (or vegan) diet, that would certainly have an affect on their health. But that's not true health food! If they eat a variety of foods that God made, that's healthy.
Matthew
Matthew, read my post again.
I wrote: Whether this is because of the health food obsession that makes the rounds in trad chapels, the absence of vaccinations, or breastfeeding - maybe a combination of all three - but they do seem to be not as healthy.
All I know is this. My generation was bottle-fed, raised on normal food, and vaccinated (and discipline too by the way). We were not as sickly. Whether that was because of one, two or all of the above, I know not. I am merely stating facts.
actually, your generations had healthier food often times, many were fed on farm produce...but that said, also, some studies have heard suggest you should be healthier actually, but not.....even in your early days, a lot of garbage already seeping into food, drink,etc....interesting, how myalgias, RA and dementia now affecting people younger and younger..
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Is this an attempt to see how many topics we can discuss in a single thread? :smirk:
true :roll-laugh2: :roll-laugh1:, ouch :fryingpan:
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It has nothing to do with "this day and age". Humans have always been highly sɛҳuąƖ beings and breastfeeding and pregnancy have always highlighted the unique beauty of the woman. I have no doubt that men throughout the ages have found it to be a nearly irresistible mystery.
That is true, but it is more, how shall I put this, predominant and uncontrolled these days. People are doing things today that would have landed you in a psychiatric hospital in saner days.
Ok, so what about the "normal" men who are Catholic or who uphold a sense of morality, are very grounded in their Faith(s), happy in their marriages, concupiscence quelled (so to speak) who also state that breastfeeding and/or pregnancy can have a sensual effect on them, even if they don't will it? I'm sorry but this is not something that can be swept under the rug as a crazy person's syndrome. Being moved by a woman's exceptional glow and beauty while bf or pregnant is not by definition, a fetish. It could become one, but in and of itself, it is not.
You have the unique ability of putting words in someone's mouth.
I wasn't sweeping anything under the rug as a "crazy person's syndrome". If you go back and read all of my posts on this subject, you would see that.
A man is a man. Period. Do you think being traditional removes the effects of original sin in a man? Turns him into an angel? St. Alphonsus de Liguori was beset with impure thoughts and temptations when he was in his eighties!
Don't breastfeed except in private. Plus, I have seen no evidence that it is healthier either. The children in traditional chapels seem to be more sickly than "regular" children. Whether this is because of the health food obsession that makes the rounds in trad chapels, the absence of vaccinations, or breastfeeding - maybe a combination of all three - but they do seem to be not as healthy.
I will now await the assaults. Good thing I brought my buckler and shield with today. :boxer:
Not sure why you are upset with me...You repeated everything I've said in my posts...I absolutely don't believe being traditional makes a man an angel, that was my whole point...my point towards you was that it isn't necessarily a matter of psychiatric issues giving men a hard time with finding nursing/pregnant women attractive. It's normal reaction for them, not something they should be berated for. You brought up psychiatric issues causing it and I defended that it isn't a psychiatric issue...was that not your meaning?
Too late to edit but wanted to add that I agreed with what pertains to bf in private, NOT the alleged unhealthiness of trad children. I've never seen a difference. Children are children are children and schools, all schools, trad or not, are the worst of virus stomping grounds. Plus, bf, non-vax and food re-education are present everywhere. It's hardly proper to trads.
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Too late to edit but wanted to add that I agreed with what pertains to bf in private, NOT the alleged unhealthiness of trad children. I've never seen a difference. Children are children are children and schools, all schools, trad or not, are the worst of virus stomping grounds. Plus, bf, non-vax and food re-education are present everywhere. It's hardly proper to trads.
I didn't know you were older. I thought you were only in your twenties or thirties.
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Too late to edit but wanted to add that I agreed with what pertains to bf in private, NOT the alleged unhealthiness of trad children. I've never seen a difference. Children are children are children and schools, all schools, trad or not, are the worst of virus stomping grounds. Plus, bf, non-vax and food re-education are present everywhere. It's hardly proper to trads.
I didn't know you were older. I thought you were only in your twenties or thirties.
How does age make a difference in my observation of trads vs non-trads? In THAT post you mentioned trad vs non-trad and I have an opinion on that. You observed old vs young in another post, about which I did not comment.
I could formulate an opinion on old vs young if you wish. I may not have been alive in the good ol days but I can compare yesteryear's formula and "normal food" ingredients, as well as the number and ingredients of vaccines, to today's formula, "normal food" and vaccines and see what we come up with. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts they aren't comparable and each generation gets a worse end of the stick. Not to mention what's found in mothers' breast milk these days, compared to less noxious times...yikes.
Thanks to these types of catastrophes that keep adding up on large and small scales...
http://www.kansascity.com/2010/10/07/2286392/hungary-toxic-red-sludge-has-reached.html
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I am not interested in the studies and links, nor in you formulating any more opinions.
I will keep my opinion about all of this, and you will, no doubt, keep yours.
As for my remark about your age, you said "I've never seen a difference." That meant to me that you were around at the time. How could you have seen something if you weren't there to observe it?
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I am not interested in the studies and links, nor in you formulating any more opinions.
I will keep my opinion about all of this, and you will, no doubt, keep yours.
As for my remark about your age, you said "I've never seen a difference." That meant to me that you were around at the time. How could you have seen something if you weren't there to observe it?
Um....I believe I just clarified that. I've never seen a difference between trad children and non-trad children, not between young and old. You could just read my post, then you wouldn't have to repeat your question because you would see that it was answered the first time.
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Ummmm, you and I are just talking past one another. You think you clarified something. You did not.
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Ummmm, you and I are just talking past one another. You think you clarified something. You did not.
Yes she did:
How does age make a difference in my observation of trads vs non-trads? In THAT post you mentioned trad vs non-trad and I have an opinion on that. You observed old vs young in another post, about which I did not comment.
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Is this an attempt to see how many topics we can discuss in a single thread? :smirk:
Threads do sometimes go on more tangents then problematic equations. May I suggest Mater, if Matthew should make the mistake of saying, he's at a lost for something to do; you might suggest going through threads like this and putting them into sub-categories. :laugh2:
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She did not. Perhaps you and her are on the same wave length, Clare; I am not.
I was not referring to trads vs. non-trads regarding age. My comment on age was, now pay attention young ladies, that in my youth we were much healthier children than the children nowadays. We were vaccinated, bottle-fed, and ate normally. Whether this had anything to do with our being healthier, I do not know. wallflower said she had not seen a difference. I then made the remark that I thought her (wallflower) to be young and, therefore, was surprised that she was old enough to remember.
As for the trad/non-trad, I made the observation that the children I have seen in traditional chapels the past 20+ years are not as healthy as other children. What the specific cause is for this, I don't know; I speculated that it might be the three things that I mentioned.
I sincerely do hope this helps to straighten things out.
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Here is a picture of what chicken "meat" looks like after it's been processed. They have to soak it in ammonia (to kill the bacteria), and add artificial flavor AND artificial color to make it look somewhat normal on your bun.
Hey I believe you. But I'm in the Eastern time zone and dinner time IS getting close, I'm now thinking it wouldn't hurt me to skip a meal. :barf:
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She did not. Perhaps you and her are on the same wave length, Clare; I am not.
I was not referring to trads vs. non-trads regarding age. My comment on age was, now pay attention young ladies, that in my youth we were much healthier children than the children nowadays. We were vaccinated, bottle-fed, and ate normally. Whether this had anything to do with our being healthier, I do not know. wallflower said she had not seen a difference. I then made the remark that I thought her (wallflower) to be young and, therefore, was surprised that she was old enough to remember.
As for the trad/non-trad, I made the observation that the children I have seen in traditional chapels the past 20+ years are not as healthy as other children. What the specific cause is for this, I don't know; I speculated that it might be the three things that I mentioned.
I sincerely do hope this helps to straighten things out.
Ah, well now that you've added the 20+ to that, it's clearer. That was not in your very first post on the subject, which was the one I commented on. I apologize for taking your post as it was written.
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Is this an attempt to see how many topics we can discuss in a single thread? :smirk:
Threads do sometimes go on more tangents then problematic equations. May I suggest Mater, if Matthew should make the mistake of saying, he's at a lost for something to do; you might suggest going through threads like this and putting them into sub-categories. :laugh2:
That is actually a feature in this software, but it's not a very functional one as it just messes everything up.
Oh well, carry on with whatever it is we're talking about. : )
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She did not. Perhaps you and her are on the same wave length, Clare; I am not.
I was not referring to trads vs. non-trads regarding age. My comment on age was, now pay attention young ladies, that in my youth we were much healthier children than the children nowadays. We were vaccinated, bottle-fed, and ate normally. Whether this had anything to do with our being healthier, I do not know. wallflower said she had not seen a difference. I then made the remark that I thought her (wallflower) to be young and, therefore, was surprised that she was old enough to remember.
As for the trad/non-trad, I made the observation that the children I have seen in traditional chapels the past 20+ years are not as healthy as other children. What the specific cause is for this, I don't know; I speculated that it might be the three things that I mentioned.
Yes, you're guessing a few causes, but as I see it those are pretty weak causes. If you don't have science (professional or amateur) behind your reasoning, you might as well suspect it's the incense at Mass that's causing the apparent lack of health.
I know of one very poor family at our chapel, and the kids probably don't get the most healthy, fresh, vitamin-rich foods, but remember that the Catholic Church isn't a country club. The rich and poor, smart and simple, old and young are all invited to the Wedding Banquet. What if a not-so-bright couple with 10 kids comes to a trad. chapel? Should the priest/coordinator send them away because they aren't good at nutrition or child discipline?
I think some people want chapels to be full of perfect, saintly people. Perfect in the natural realm AND the spiritual realm. When they don't get that, they become disappointed.
Matthew
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This seems lost in the tide long ago, so I looked it up and am sharing for those interested...
I was surprised by Alexandria mentioning being bottle fed as an infant -- I think she's in her 60s, but could be guessing and wrong.
I thought formula feeding by the majority was something that came to be in the late 60s and on into the 70s and 80s with perhaps a slight decline after 2000 or so.
According to Wikipedia, by 1950! over half of infants were bottle fed. Sure, there's the other almost 1/2 who were not, but wow. By 1970, the figure was over 75% and I couldn't see where it might have said what percentage are formula fed today.
My mother formula fed us, but her sisters all still bf their infants primarily -- this would have been late 70s. So, I guess my family came late to that game.
Another interesting random stat ... while breastfeeding in on the rise, fomula sales are as well due to the recommendation that children under 1 not be given cow's milk. And, over 1/2 of infant formula in the US is provided by WIC.
And now you know the rest of the story...
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This seems lost in the tide long ago, so I looked it up and am sharing for those interested...
I was surprised by Alexandria mentioning being bottle fed as an infant -- I think she's in her 60s, but could be guessing and wrong.
I thought formula feeding by the majority was something that came to be in the late 60s and on into the 70s and 80s with perhaps a slight decline after 2000 or so.
According to Wikipedia, by 1950! over half of infants were bottle fed. Sure, there's the other almost 1/2 who were not, but wow. By 1970, the figure was over 75% and I couldn't see where it might have said what percentage are formula fed today.
My mother formula fed us, but her sisters all still bf their infants primarily -- this would have been late 70s. So, I guess my family came late to that game.
Another interesting random stat ... while breastfeeding in on the rise, fomula sales are as well due to the recommendation that children under 1 not be given cow's milk. And, over 1/2 of infant formula in the US is provided by WIC.
And now you know the rest of the story...
Yes I recently learned that formula feeding started farther back than I realized too, when I found out that my grandmother bottle fed all 13 of her children. We're talking 50's-70's, I think the oldest was even late 40's. My mom was actually a "pioneer" in re-establishing the wholesomeness of bf in the 70's-90's. At first she was a minority but the landscape has changed quite a bit since then thank goodness.
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In the beginning, I was very reluctant to post on any of these topics. Firstly, I could care less about FE crashing. I lurk over there, and aside from an occasional discussion, the whole forum and its members just touch me the wrong way.
Then this thread moved into breastfeeding in public and modesty.
Then someone suggested that trad children are sickly, in their opinion, because they believe that there is some link between bottle feeding, vaccines, modern eating and health or maybe breastfeeding, non-vaccines, health food and poor health.
As I said, I don't care about FE crashing
I think the breastfeeding in public issue, especially in Mass, is an important one.
And I the comment about sickly trads is just, well, is just false and based on poor information and personal experience. That sort of thing really irks me--people basing opinions on false information or incomplete information---very modern way of looking at the world.
We can not live in the "shoulds". It is not realistic and denies the existence of sin and human nature. Yes, women "should" be able to breastfeed any where without any one making a comment or taking a look. Yes, men "should" be able to control their eyes and appetites. But thanks to Adam and Eve, that is not possible. Therefore, we are all responsible for keeping our own sinful nature in check and also helping our neighbors keep theirs in check.
I have not always been a "trad." In fact, I was VERY modern. I nursed my first son where ever I felt like it and was radical about it. I didn't care one iota what others thought. I concluded it was "their" problem and they should get over it. They needed to be "educated."
By the time my 3rd son came along, I was in my 30s and a "modern" Catholic. I generally had the same feeling about public breastfeeding but I wasn't so radical. I looked at it from a more personal position. I didn't want to "upset" the people who found it problematic. Depending on who I was with or where I was determined if I "whipped it out" or not. I reasoned that there were LOTS of really sensitive people in Mass, so nursing in the nave was clearly not an option. I learned very quickly though that my babies normally nurse every 2 or 2 1/2 hours--that was plenty of time for me to nurse in the car before Mass and have a sleeping baby the whole time. I might also add, I just held my babies. I have NEVER carried a baby into a church in a carseat.
Now, that I have moved further along this path into traditional Catholicism, I don't breastfeed in public. I have no desire to reveal my body in front of any strange person, most especially men. I recognize that most men are quite visually aroused and it takes a really strong man NOT to be visually aroused by a woman's hugely swollen milk breasts. Personally, I don't want to be responsible for that.
When I have guests at my home, I always inform them that I am about to nurse the baby. Most of my women friends don't seem to be bothered and I try diligently to be discreet, even in my own home. When men are around, I go into another room or hide myself very cleverly. I absolutely won't nurse in the bathroom. It's repulsive to me, sorry. And I am really offended, still, when people suggest that is where women should go to feed their children. In short, it is not about balance. It's about knowledge and understanding of human nature.
I blame all this "modern" Mass breastfeeding on Christopher West anyway---just saying.
Now, as to the comment about healthy babies vs. sick babies, that is utter nonsense. It can be completely reasoned by a normal person that loading one's body up with chemicals and junk is in no way "healthy". They facts, as well, reasonably conclude this to be so.
Personally, I have done hours of research on all of these issues. Most people, unfortunately, just aren't interested in the history of most things. They are mostly interested in what is convenient for them or what their Drs/parents/friends think is best.
Breastfeeding was the only way to feed one's child, ever. Prior to about 1940, orphanages hired wet nurses to feed the infants they kept there. Mother's didn't work outside the home and babies were fed this way until they were about 3 or so. However, in the 1930s there was what is commonly referred to as the "First Wave of Feminism." Many women were influenced by it. Much of the literature at the time was influenced by it, as was the culture. In Hollywood, Katherine Hepburn became one of the early "feminist" idols. Breastfeeding became synonymous with "poor, uneducated, housewife never being able to live up to her dreams." This became especially true during the depression.
As the men went off to war and women were forced to work for the war cause, many young women began embracing the whole idea. Wet nurses became harder to find so Drs. began suggesting women make their own formula for their babies. They use a recipe that had been employed by midwives for decades if a mother died in childbirth. The recipe began showing up in women's cookbooks in the 1940s. My mother-in-law, who had her first child in 1949 used this recipe. It involved evaporated milk, sugar, and water.
During this time period, creating "formula" became really important. Manufacturing companies hired the best advertisers to help them market it. Early ads depicted very upper class mothers and fathers bottle feeding their children. Thus, formula became a symbol of upward mobility. No self respecting mother would "nurse" her child. Formula began to be marketed to hospital nurseries as well. It became quite necessary really by the 50s because during that time women were give "twilight" drugs for labor. They would be sedated as labor began and not wake until several hours after the baby was born. Babies HAD to be formula and women were given a medication to dry up their milk. This was common practice up until the mid to late 60s. This was the situation with my brother and husband.
My point--the invention of formula had ZERO to do with health. It had everything to do with easing women's burdens and making it possible for them to work outside the home. Formula and feminism are very closely linked. To think otherwise is lack of information and education.
Vaccines were basically unheard of on the level that Americans are obsessed with them. I was born in the late 60s. I had only two--polio and small pox. That's it. I was NEVER a sickly child and I'm not sure any one I knew was sickly. If having more vaccines is linked to healthy children, then we should have the healthiest generation ever. But we don't. In fact, it's quite the opposite. And it springs entirely from a lack of understanding of basic biology. Our bodies were created by God to fight off disease and be strong. The SINGLE most important factor for people living healthy long lives is CLEAN WATER. Period. Most diseases and pestilence are related to filthy water. That's why the Jews survived the plague and pestilence--they were clean.
But I digress. When the body is exposed to a bacteria or virus, it goes into overtime. With bacteria, it seeks to fight it off in a myriad of ways. If left alone for 3-5 days, a human body most of the time will rid itself of whatever bacteria it has. After 5 days, if it hasn't antibiotics may be necessary to help fight it off. In the case of viruses, contracting the virus builds up antibodies and creates LIFE-LONG immunity, in the long run creating healthier individuals. Mother's who breast feed pass this same immunity onto their children, who in turn will be immune for 6 months to 1 year. Vaccines DO NOT offer this protection and adults who have never had chicken pox but the vaccine will have to receive another one. Chicken pox in a child is almost never fatal. In an adult, it is debilitating.
There is current evidence to support the idea that the chemicals used to create most childhood vaccines actually do more harm than good. They have become necessary because most children today spend their time in confined spaces, i.e. daycare and public school. Diseases are KNOWN to breed in closed, moist, environments. Another factor involved is the obsession with cleanliness---antibacterial wipes, bleaching everything etc. Children's bodies are no longer exposed to normal bacteria and there fore it has become impossible for them to fight even the simplest thing.
The food issue should be a no brainer. There is more junk food today than ever before and corn syrup in everything. Parents feed their kids every 2 hours to keep them "occupied". I can't tell you how many times in the NO I've seen 3 year olds sitting in the pew eating cookies and milk so they won't be "bored." The chicken is pumped up with hormones, and so is the beef. Americans eat far too much and who needs to mention the fast-food places. To suggest that people are healthier today is just a blatant lie. Period. Yes, people live longer but that's mainly due to pharmaceuticals for high-blood pressure and diabetes.
I know that I am ranting now. I'll stop. Lack of education and basing presumptions on that lack of education REALLY bothers me.
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I recognize that most men are quite visually aroused and it takes a really strong man NOT to be visually aroused by a woman's hugely swollen milk breasts. Personally, I don't want to be responsible for that.
There is no need for them to see that. There is no need to see anything.
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CathMom,
Thanks for writing a post that needed to be written. I was also quite annoyed by the vague subjective observation about trads being less healthy -- to me, there was no reason or science behind it -- just feelings.
Feelings have no place in a rational discussion.
Matthew
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Good post by CathMomof7!
Though I personally disagree about breastfeeding arousing men. As a male and I have to fight daily to overt my eyes from immodesty and it is a constant battle though I have never once been aroused by a breast feeding mother.
In fact I think it is a very beautiful and dignified thing to see and I don't see it as sɛҳuąƖly arousing or an occasion of sin. I think it is beautiful as it is a natural caring thing that can be done without revealing anything and possible arousing those who may be aroused by this.
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People are aroused by different things. I am nit personnally aroused by a woman breastfeading, but it would not surprise me if other men were. I like shapely hands and legs on a woman. Other men are attracted to hair styles. Everyone is different.