Author Topic: FE Might Close - Or Jayne Might Become a Moderator There (Read 74049 times)

icterus · « **Reply #270 on:** October 07, 2013, 08:49:50 AM »

Let us remember that, although everyone here seems in agreement that Vox's actions are indefensible, it is not IMO *primarily* her fault. In any sane universe, a lay person would not be in a position of power like she is without adequate spiritual guidance and a direct commission from and oversight by her bishop.

I can agree that a person enjoying perfect reason, in her situation, would walk away immediately for their own sake. However, perfect reason is in awfully short supply since the Fall.

I can only say "Where is her pastor? Where is her Bishop?" If she won't listen to her Bishop, then they're supposed to deal with her in a disciplinary manner. But no, they're AWOL.

Instead, lay Catholics are given a vague directive to "go out and share the faith" and do "new evangelization" and "make a mess", and so they do. They make powerful messes.

There but for the grace of God go I. I have been so tempted so many times to start a forum. However, God protected my by showing me this scenario many times. I have been liberal, neo conservative, and traddy as I wander along this path, but (by the aforementioned grace) I managed not to put myself into a position of unregulated authority.

In the very fact that someone told Vox "You can do this", she is sinned against. All of the people wanting power to moderate her forum need to think long and hard about taking that apple. I'm sure the owner/moderator here can share stories about grave temptations that come with the territory.

I know I would not be able to handle those temptations. Vox, obviously, is like me, unable to handle it. As Matthew noted, she's in a terrible situation, needing the forum but despising the meager sustenance it gives her. Now it's like Gollum's precious, I suppose. That is a terrible place to be. It would be a severe, awful hardship for her to make a big change now. It would, still IMO, be the right thing to do, for her soul and others, but we know it won't happen.

...without a huge dollop of grace. I don't know how I feel about anyone contacting Mel Gibson for any reason, which seems a lot like trying to wake a sleeping rhinoceros by tickling it behind the ear (NOT a good idea) but I do know one communique that should be sent: From Vox to the superior of a good Catholic convent explaining her situation and asking Mother for advice.

My sincere hope is that at judgement, Vox and the lot of us will be taken into the arms of Christ and He'll say "You poor, dirty little sheep. Where was your shepherd?"

Larry · « **Reply #271 on:** October 07, 2013, 10:05:45 AM »

Quote from: StCeciliasGirl

Quote from: wallflower

I have struggled openly with whether or not to trust Jayne is sincere. This is nothing I haven't said to her but there are several patterns of behavior that I have come not to trust. Cross-posting is one of them. Many times in the past few years that she has been on trad forums, Jayne posts what one says about the other then sits back and tsk-tsks the results. Not once. Not twice. Many times, and with full knowledge that it will lead no where good. A lot of people read both places, it's taken for granted, there's no need for a self-appointed messenger. It's like the third party who drops a bomb between two countries and lets them go at it while she sits innocently reminding everyone that it's against the rules to bash other forums.

This time it was a new line to pray for enemies. Now that she has dropped the facade of trying to get along here she is full on supporting the idea that people here are enemies. Strong word. One that no one here has ever used and very convenient of Jayne, considering Vox is struggling with the idea that people hate her personally when most people simply have a problem with her being in such an influential, leadership position. Way to cement this perception, knowing full well that it would cause even more disordered emotion and that many have stated clearly that it is false.

I've said for a long time that Jayne is either very shrewd or very ... Unintelligent. I don't really believe it's the latter so yes I have a problem trusting Jayne. Every single time there is a problem she is right in the thick of it. The possibility of it being coincidence becomes less probable or reasonable with each passing year.

I cut the Impy part out. No pun intended.

This post needs to be repeated. :applause:

Enemies? Hardly. I simply don't care, any more than I would care for a 12yo boy's Pokemon forum: not enemies, just not interested. Not praying for them either, though, because I'm not sure who I'd be asking intercession for. Most of this manufactured drama is from AN ACCOUNT named "JayneK", who for all I know is some retired V2 paedo prelate in Rome (who I WILL NOT pray for), or a Masonic robot designed to dredge up strife in Catholic communities. I know that particular account doesn't tend to bring glad tidings, peace, humor, or anything positive with it, so I avoid it.

I just can't back down on an avid shunning of liars and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, which was what happened in April and May to cause an exodus. Love the sinner not the sin? Not really. "Dust off your feet and leave". cuм dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum has been tortured into some "coexist" ecuмenical crap and entirely lost its meaning, which the Sodomites take full advantage of, but it seems pretty clear that St. Augustine meant to live your life "with love of mankind and hatred of sins", not to love "each man" who lives in a state of unrepentant sin.

In fact, we're not to be yoked with sinners, so we certainly can't EMBRACE the sinner in his (or her) sin, as happened on FE. That was disgusting!

See, this is the kind of post that I think hurts tradition. I hate to disagree with a lady, and I apologize. But the "Thank you, God, that I am not like other men" stuff is completely against the spirit of Christ, and the Faith. The Church is a hospital for sinners, not a club of people who are better than anyone else. I also think that imputing motives to others, saying that they are "a retired pedo prelate" or whatever is wrong. We can pray for everyone. God is the one who hears our prayers, he'll apply the graces to people appropriately, He knows their heart, and their intentions.

Meg · « **Reply #272 on:** October 07, 2013, 11:25:34 AM »

Quote from: Larry

See, this is the kind of post that I think hurts tradition. I hate to disagree with a lady, and I apologize. But the "Thank you, God, that I am not like other men" stuff is completely against the spirit of Christ, and the Faith. The Church is a hospital for sinners, not a club of people who are better than anyone else. I also think that imputing motives to others, saying that they are "a retired pedo prelate" or whatever is wrong. We can pray for everyone. God is the one who hears our prayers, he'll apply the graces to people appropriately, He knows their heart, and their intentions.

We can indeed pray for everyone. But if the Church really is a hospital for sinners, shouldn't sin be something that we are willing to admit to within ourselves, and shouldn't we also be willing to point out to others who are unrepentant in their sin, for their own sake, and for the sake of others who will be influenced by their bad example?

Sometimes posts here do go a bit over the top. But that's human nature, and it can't be completely avoided. I think that Vox mischaracterizes this forum in her extreme criticism. This forum expresses true tradition. The motto on FE, however, should be..."Love the sinner and don't worry about sin. Jesus loves you that's all that matters."

It reminds me of the Novus Ordo that I attend. It's amazing to me that the priests there can come up with so many ways to say that all you need is love. Love Jesus and your neighbor and everything will be just fine. But if that's all it takes to save one's soul, then there's really no need for a Church and the sacraments. All we would need then is a Bible and a pulpit, like the Prots.

Having said that, I think that Matthew is right in his recent post. Vox is indeed a real person with a soul to be saved, and we should care about her situation, even though she is wrong. I wouldn't want her out on the street because she can't pay bills, even though that forum of hers is a bad one.

Matthew · « **Reply #273 on:** October 07, 2013, 11:25:59 AM »

Quote from: Mithrandylan

Huh? How about wanting FE to shut down because it's an anti-Catholic site full of immoral, sɛҳuąƖ and anti-Catholic scandal that is subverting the traditionalist cause? I think it's the height of melodrama to think that the shutting down of FE means Vox goes penniless out into the street.

Mith, I'm sure you and I agree about Fisheaters.

Here is my point: (Not aimed at you personally, but at EVERYONE including myself)

Let's not let bitter zeal consume us. Let's try hard to stick to desiring ONLY justice and God's will, and not a bit more. Let's deny ourselves that "last little kick in the ribs" before we go on our way.

It's a very human temptation, and has tempted many others before us. Let's not let our apparent "enmity" with Vox (which is unavoidable, given our love for the Church and the Faith in general) get so personal that we forget we are Catholic.

That's all that I ask.

So, for example, if there were some way that would remove FE as a source of scandal and sin, but had the one "downside" that Vox wouldn't suffer, I would be for it in a heartbeat. Is it possible? Who knows. I agree that FE is not an asset to Tradition (to indulge in some understatement).

What I'm trying to say is -- let's not nurse any secret desire for revenge, or to see our enemies crushed. Praying that our enemies get crushed is very human and carnal (think: Old Testament) but Our Lord took the New Testament to a higher level than that.

I just know that Trads have a tendency to NOT get along with each other, and that's as scandalous as anything Vox has done. Let's let our charity show EVEN AS WE FIGHT Liberalism, error, and those who promote it.

Archbishop Lefebvre was a courageous, uncompromising hero of the Faith against Liberalism and Modernism. In a normal world, he would be canonized. But he was always charitable and not filled with bitter zeal. Zeal, yes. Bitter, no.

It's a sad truism that when Trads form a firing squad, it's shaped like a circle.

icterus · « **Reply #274 on:** October 07, 2013, 11:35:53 AM »

Quote

The Church is a hospital for sinners, not a club of people who are better than anyone else.

Yeah. Exactly. And if you carry the hospital analogy a bit farther, dangerous things are not allowed inside a hospital. A raving gunman, a bomb, an unsecured source of virulent infection...none of these things would be allowed inside until it had been neutralized for the safety of the other patients.

This is something often lost in the 'all you need is hugs' modern Church.

StCeciliasGirl · « **Reply #275 on:** October 07, 2013, 02:00:04 PM »

Quote from: Larry

See, this is the kind of post that I think hurts tradition. I hate to disagree with a lady, and I apologize. But the "Thank you, God, that I am not like other men" stuff is completely against the spirit of Christ, and the Faith. The Church is a hospital for sinners, not a club of people who are better than anyone else. I also think that imputing motives to others, saying that they are "a retired pedo prelate" or whatever is wrong. We can pray for everyone. God is the one who hears our prayers, he'll apply the graces to people appropriately, He knows their heart, and their intentions.

I can't believe you're equating "not being yoked with sinners" to "thank God I'm not like other men."

If someone is living in grave sin, which is pretty much what we're supposedly talking about here, you don't embrace them and say "it's all good." Because it's not. In fact, it's all bad. And you tell them so. To be charitable.

"Imputing motives": When a user account name has been associated with lies and deceit, it is also with charity that I don't associate that user account with a person, but rather with a troll, trolls, or a robot.

2Vermont · « **Reply #276 on:** October 07, 2013, 03:37:54 PM »

Quote from: MaterDominici

Quote from: StCeciliasGirl
Mithrandylan's spot on.
And anyway, THIS WHOLE THREAD started because Vox wanted to shut her forum down. HER OWN WORDS. I'm sorry she was ~~panhandling~~ ~~depressed~~ [excuse] when she said them, that's unfortunate, but shutting down that cesspool of Sodom was HER idea, and about the best idea she's had since "supporting" Sparky. Spanky. ...Impy. Whatever.

You do have a point. If she said herself that she wanted to shut her forum down, there's not much room for complaint when people agree with what she suggested.

To be fair to her, I may be wrong, but I don't think her main beef with this thread is its topic of FE shutting down. It appears her main beef is that many comments got personal...whether true or not.

I stayed out of the Impygate because I wasn't there when it happened (and I really have no interest in going back and reading the drama). I've also tried to stay out of the personal jabs.

My biggest issue with her is the way she moderates... the fact that she is now banning good, traditional Catholics left and right despite the fact that they have very important (and VALID) points to make. OTOH, she rarely if ever bans NO's or liberals. They are too busy wagging their fingers at the other folks and playing self-appointed moderator. And when she did ban such a poster the one time I saw her do it, she flip-flopped almost immediately. As far as I'm concerned this type of moderation is reminiscent of CAF and I have no respect for that place nor its moderators.

I also happen to think that she should allow discussions of SV in a separate forum. Clearly there are a number of trads who WANT to discuss it and nowhere has it been condemned by the Church. This is pure censorship. I get that it's her site, but there are good people who NEED to discuss this with others struggling in this crisis. It is a DISSERVICE to them to not allow it and then to add insult to injury she threatens to ban them. And then where do they go? Here, of course. Because despite some of the more (a-hem) colorful posters (which I much prefer over the liberal, FE posters), Matthew allows this discussion. He is hands-off and although sometimes that makes it a bit more difficult (you actually have to IGNORE posters that piss you off or hurt your feelings, yada, yada), it allows for adults to actually have adult conversations without being reprimanded all of the time.

StCeciliasGirl · « **Reply #277 on:** October 08, 2013, 09:41:04 AM »

Jayne, I deleted your PM without reading it as we've gone that route before and it simply does no good, which is why I think you're code. Probably basic. You have great history of saying hideous things, repeating it in a different way when called out, denying you said anything, wondering aloud why people are so mean to you, garnering sympathy, and then repeating your original assertion, over and over again. For no discernible reason. Which is why I prefer to think of you as code. We already knew you were downvoting. If you want to "be a real person", stop acting like code and JOIN the conversation since we know you didn't leave anyway.

:stare:

Larry: this is why Jayne looks like code.

Well okay then! JayneK, feel free. Loqui! Sprechen! Say your peace publically. Why are you starting drama?

wallflower · « **Reply #278 on:** October 08, 2013, 10:42:07 AM »

Quote from: icterus

Quote
The Church is a hospital for sinners, not a club of people who are better than anyone else.

Yeah. Exactly. And if you carry the hospital analogy a bit farther, dangerous things are not allowed inside a hospital. A raving gunman, a bomb, an unsecured source of virulent infection...none of these things would be allowed inside until it had been neutralized for the safety of the other patients.

This is something often lost in the 'all you need is hugs' modern Church.

That's exactly it. The pretense that "sinners" or "ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs" get trashed because other Catholics think they are better than them is just that, a pretense. There are many people who go on both boards and ask for advice for some serious issues, from sɛҳuąƖ sins to doubts about the Faith. They don't automatically get trashed or pushed away or anything of the sort, whether the other members can relate personally or not. Most are treated with respect and dignity.

There are only a few who are consistently given a hard time and it usually doesn't have to do with their sins (albeit such attachments can give much insight on why they take the stances they do) but with the ideas they are pushing that are harmful to the hospital. On the "ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ/transɛҳuąƖ" side, I can think of only three who get confronted for their posts on a regular basis. And the fascinating thing is there are always lurking Catholics with SSA who ALSO speak up against these posts.

If it were simply a matter of immaturity, ignorance and self-righteous "judgment", then every Catholic who has difficulties with SSA would get trashed immediately. But that's not the case. It's only those whose posts try to rationalize or put spins on it to satisfy their attachment to the sin or even to the identity, if they don't commit the sin. It's not all about sex.

There are a couple of people who repeat that those involved in this controversy only care about sex, are obsessed with sex, and try to discredit in this way. But the irony is they are the ones obsessed with sex. IOW, their view is a very simplistic "homo sex -- bad, homo not having sex -- good" as if there are no other elements to this, such as the attachment to or glorification of the identity or other erroneous ideas. A good example of it is that disclaimer about drag queens, that they are delightful and no guesses are made as to their sɛҳuąƖ activity. No one needs to! Drag is wrong and gravely sinful in itself. Not to recognize that and to think it only comes down to whether or not they are having ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ sex is an erroneous and very dangerous line of thought.

The reason why the ideas behind it are so much more dangerous than the actual actions is because those are the ideas that lead to the actual actions. Like murder and abortion, whose category of gravity it is in, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is not usually something that a person just wakes up and decides to do one day as if it's the most natural thing in the world. There is so much that leads up to it. All of those predispositions have to be recognized and combated, especially if they are being actively spread. That's why if I'd have a lot more sympathy for someone who rejects the sin entirely in his mind but has a weakness of flesh now and then, than for someone who never commits the sin but whose mind is still attached and rationalizing. It's not all about whether the sin is committed although that is obviously concerning too, but in the context of a forum it's more about what their posts are saying and whether that furthers the occasion of or the predisposition to the sin.

RomanCatholic1953 · « **Reply #279 on:** October 08, 2013, 10:57:07 AM »

Did anybody else received this email from Fisheaters? I never have
signed up nor registered for this forum.

Oct 7 at 7:57 PM

Hi, everyone who's registered at the FishEaters discussion forum! This is Tracy Tucciarone, owner of the FishEaters website ("Vox Clamantis" at the discussion forum), and I want to send to you an appeal from Jason Fabaz, the Director of Development and Institutional Advancement at Fisher More College. Before I get the details of his request, I want to tell you 12 things you should know about Fisher More College:

12 Things You Should Know About Fisher More College:

1. We are the only accredited 4-year Catholic college that proclaims fidelity to the Traditional Latin Mass as essential to achieving its mission and we have a full-time chaplain from the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (F.S.S.P.) in residence.

2. We strive to model for one another a genuine Catholic life following the Latin phrase that serves as Our Statement of Principles: Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi (“as we pray, so we believe, so we live”).

3. Our work calendar is the liturgical calendar of the Church. Every day we attend Mass, pray the Rosary, sing the Angelus, chant the Divine Office, study, and dine together as a community.

4. We are led and staffed by committed traditional Catholics who have experience in business and higher education, including President Michael King, former Chair of the Business School at Benedictine College.

5. We are located in the heart of Fort Worth, Texas, one of America’s best large metropolitan areas with easy access to jobs, internships, an international airport, and beautiful weather year round.

6. We recently moved to our new campus, a beautiful edifice in the Gothic revival style built over 100 years ago by the Sisters of St. Mary of Namur as a boarding school, college, convent and provincial house.

7. We operate Fisher More Academy (grades 4 thru 12) which offers full-service, live, interactive online programs for students at home, in cooperatives, and in hybrid schools.

8. Enrollment in both Fisher More College and Fisher More Academy has more than doubled from last year as the College welcomes its largest freshman class and enrollment in the Academy exceeds 400 students.

9. We have outstanding professors in the College and instructors in the Academy, many of whom are published authors and international lecturers who could teach anywhere but have chosen Fisher More because they are deeply committed to our unique mission.

10. Each year our president and all faculty take the Oath Against Modernism (Pope Saint Pius X, 1910).

11. We are committed to enrolling and graduating students who have not been reduced to debt dependency, so we choose not to participate in the federal student loan program and not to facilitate private borrowing.

12. We are the home of Fisher More Chronicles, a center for publicizing activities of the College and Academy, and for promoting Catholic culture through new media, radio, publications, lectures, conferences, etc.

And now, here's Mr. Fabaz's request!

JMJ

I'm sure you all read Vox Clamantis' recent post, she has done so much for all of us, we should all donate to Fisheaters.com...I'm making my donation right now, I hope you all will join me.

I also want to let you know of another urgent appeal, America's only fully-accredited 4-year Catholic College that views fidelity to the Traditional Latin Mass as essential towards achieving its mission, The College of Saints John Fisher & Thomas More (Fisher More College). We are hosting our 1st ever Rogatio Moneyblast: throughout the next 7 days we need the support and prayers of 10,000 committed Traditional Catholics! Starting today, on this Glorious Feast of Our Lady of Victory, to whom our campus building was dedicated back in 1909, we are holding an urgent fundraising week, we call it our Rogatio Moneyblast.

Here's the What, When, Where, Why and Who:

What: We invite you to visit our website every day (http://fishermore.edu) from Oct. 7-13 as we post new videos and pictures featuring our students at the Traditional Latin Mass, praying the Holy Rosary, singing the Angelus, chanting Vespers as a community, taking classes, studying and just hanging out with each other; in short, living out the Catholic Faith as a college community!

When: October 7th (Feast of Our Lady of Victory) through October 13th (Anniversary of the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima), including a special day on October 11th (Feast of the Maternity of the Blessed Virgin Mary).

Where: Please make a secure online donation here. Your donations are tax deductible. What if 5000 Traditionalists made a donation, what if 10,000 of us did! That is the kind of support we urgently need to help America's only fully-accredited 4-year Traditional Catholic College alive and growing, educating tomorrow's leaders dedicated to the Traditional Latin Mass and Traditional Catholic Doctrines!

Why: Help us raise a much-needed $250,000 enabling us to provide scholarships for deserving students and helping us restore our campus building (dedicated to Our Lady of Victory in 1909) back to its original purpose: Traditional Catholic Education and Formation.

Who should participate: We are a unique college in many ways, one of which is our commitment to graduating students who have not been forced into debt dependency because of their education. We place our confidence in Divine Providence and in the generosity of good people like you to help us make this possible.

http://fishermore.edu/rogatio/online-donation/

May our Good God, through the intercession of Sts. John Fisher & Thomas More continue to bless you and your family!

Best regards,

Jason

Jason Fabaz
Director of Development & Institutional Advancement
The College of Sts. John Fisher & Thomas More
(Fisher More College)
Ph. 817-653-2020
jason.fabaz@fishermore.edu
801 W. Shaw St.
Fort Worth, TX 76110

AMDG

Jaynek · « **Reply #280 on:** October 08, 2013, 11:03:53 AM »

Quote from: StCeciliasGirl

Well okay then! JayneK, feel free. Loqui! Sprechen! Say your peace publically. Why are you starting drama?

When I said I had no intention of posting here again, I meant it, but I need to say this:

Whatever you all think of me, I think that you are Catholics and I value your prayers. I am distressed to see SCG saying that I am not a real person and therefore it is an offense against God to pray for me. There is no point in me explaining my motives for anything because people don't believe me anyhow. That's fine. Whatever else you want to believe about me, believe that I need your prayers and am grateful for them.

I have sent Matthew the names of priests who can vouch for my existence if he contacts them, although I dislike to bother such a busy man with doing this. If anyone has an account on Suscipe Domine, a couple of posters there have met me in person. You can PM me for their names and contact them, if you wish. If that is what it takes to be recognized as a person who can be prayed for, then I will do it. I need all the prayers I can get.

Devekut · « **Reply #281 on:** October 08, 2013, 01:26:06 PM »

Fishermore College should be made aware of the public scandal FE has committed. Perhaps Fisheaters will EAT Fishermore if they continue to associate themselves with Sodomite forum. I know very well that I would never allow my child to attend a university that is aligned with such trash.

St Magnus · « **Reply #282 on:** October 08, 2013, 02:53:09 PM »

Quote from: StCeciliasGirl

Jayne, I deleted your PM without reading it as we've gone that route before and it simply does no good, which is why I think you're code. Probably basic. You have great history of saying hideous things, repeating it in a different way when called out, denying you said anything, wondering aloud why people are so mean to you, garnering sympathy, and then repeating your original assertion, over and over again. For no discernible reason. Which is why I prefer to think of you as code. We already knew you were downvoting. If you want to "be a real person", stop acting like code and JOIN the conversation since we know you didn't leave anyway.

:stare:

Larry: this is why Jayne looks like code.

Well okay then! JayneK, feel free. Loqui! Sprechen! Say your peace publically. Why are you starting drama?

Pretty much nailed it. All games with her.

Meg · « **Reply #283 on:** October 08, 2013, 03:05:05 PM »

I'd not ever heard of Fisher More college. So, in wondering why on earth a supposed trad college would want to have anything to do with FE, I looked at the founders of the college. Or rather, just one founder, so far. Her name is Dr. Judith Shanks, and she taught philosophy at the college for quite awhile. She is now a senior fellow at the college. Unfortunately, it looks like she has a keen interest in existentialist philosophy.

In her college bio, it says that she managed a journal called Aletheia: International journal of philosophy, which is dedicated to the works of a Phenomenologist called Roman Ingarden. She also authored a paper called
"Freedom in the works of Gabriel Marcel, Martin Buber, and Gerald Manley Hopkins." Aren't all these guys existentialists?

I certainly wouldn't expect a trad college to be promoting works such as these. Here's her bio:

http://fishermore.edu/faculty/dr-judith-stewart-shank/

The journal of Internation Philosophy, with she formerly managed:

http://www.peterlang.com/index.cfm?event=cmp.ccc.seitenstruktur.detailseiten&seitentyp=produkt&pk=7003

I expect that if Vox reads this post she will shout..."They hate Fisher More college!" But no, I'm only raising a concern.

Hopefully none of the other professors or founders of Fisher More have these "unique" qualifications. We'll see.

Meg · « **Reply #284 on:** October 08, 2013, 03:16:58 PM »

Oops, I made an orror in the above post. The International Journal of Philosophy is not dedicated to the work of Roman Ingarden; rather, it looks as if he was featured in one of their Journals. Sorry for the mistake.