Author Topic: Admonishment of CM (Read 35038 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #10 on:** February 09, 2010, 02:02:07 PM »

I like the way some people cite Padre Pio in defense of being harsh with people. I respond that I'll lay off as soon as they bilocate over to me and show me their stigmata.

Padre Pio said that Our Lord directed hiim at times to be harsh and that it was incredibly painful for him. And, you know what, in every docuмented case of Padre Pio's "harshness", it worked wonders on the souls towards whom it had been directed. Some people need it to shake them out of a certain tepidity. If I went to confession to someone like Padre Pio, who reminded me of forgotten sins that only God could know, and he was harsh with me, I'd take that as a wake-up call from God Himself. With anyone else who lacks Padre Pio's gifts, you'd just think he was being a jerk.

Matthew · « **Reply #11 on:** February 09, 2010, 02:06:09 PM »

Quote from: spouse of Jesus

Quote
Perhaps in some twisted way you feel that you're dedicated to the truth, and that the truth requires behavior like that. Let me tell you something: The Pharisees did EVERYTHING RIGHT materially speaking. They tithed all products, did all the fasts, the sabbath rest, etc. BUT OUR LORD WAS NOT PLEASED WITH THEM -- AT ALL. They couldn't see the forest for the trees. They forgot love, mercy, etc. (Not my charges, those are from Our Lord whom you claim to follow)

Some people believe that charity doesn't necessarily mean sayingt kind works, showing affection and smiling at others. Sometimes harshness, punishment and making someone suffer is charity. The best examples are parents, teachers, doctors, surgeons and policemen who make people suffer because of love.

It's true that sometimes you have to perform spiritual works of mercy, such as: admonish the sinner, instruct the ignorant, counsel the doubtful, etc.

However, the saints would never act in the way that CM has acted. For one thing, he has reached the insane conclusions that
A) the Catholic Church is completely invisible, that one can't know (by reference to a census, etc.) how many Catholics there are, and
B) One cannot point to buildings that are part of the Catholic Church
C) It is ok to act in place of the Church authorities, declaring dogmas and anathematizing those who don't adhere to them.

He is confusing membership in the Catholic Church with perfection or sanctity. In his zeal for the "spotless Bride of Christ", he has stripped away all the human, fallible element, until he is only left with himself, FKPagnanelli, and "perhaps some others scattered throughout the world that I'm not aware of".

I'd say he means well, but I honestly don't know.

Matthew

Belloc · « **Reply #12 on:** February 09, 2010, 02:10:05 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

I like the way some people cite Padre Pio in defense of being harsh with people. I respond that I'll lay off as soon as they bilocate over to me and show me their stigmata.

Padre Pio said that Our Lord directed hiim at times to be harsh and that it was incredibly painful for him. And, you know what, in every docuмented case of Padre Pio's "harshness", it worked wonders on the souls towards whom it had been directed. Some people need it to shake them out of a certain tepidity. If I went to confession to someone like Padre Pio, who reminded me of forgotten sins that only God could know, and he was harsh with me, I'd take that as a wake-up call from God Himself. With anyone else who lacks Padre Pio's gifts, you'd just think he was being a jerk.

at times harsh, mostly not.....note it is exception, not the rule....

Caminus · « **Reply #13 on:** February 09, 2010, 02:43:27 PM »

Quote

Padre Pio said that Our Lord directed hiim at times to be harsh and that it was incredibly painful for him. And, you know what, in every docuмented case of Padre Pio's "harshness", it worked wonders on the souls towards whom it had been directed. Some people need it to shake them out of a certain tepidity. If I went to confession to someone like Padre Pio, who reminded me of forgotten sins that only God could know, and he was harsh with me, I'd take that as a wake-up call from God Himself. With anyone else who lacks Padre Pio's gifts, you'd just think he was being a jerk

This is true. Guys like CM, FK, the "brothers," etc. are trying to imitate something that is simply off limits. They are trying show they have "zeal" in lieu of the need of having charity. They try to imitate the zeal of the saints, but because they do not have charity, it devolves into bitter zealousness. Would they give their lives for the faith? Maybe, but not like the saints did, for their bitter zeal might motivate any madman to die for any cause, but to die for charity is a gift that cannot be acquired. It's really a common mistake, to attempt to imitate some virtue which is detached from others, it's like trying to force a plant to grow in an artificial way. The spiritual organism becomes dwarfed and malformed and they end in infidelity because the cause of their "zealousness" is motivated for purely emotional and selfish reasons. It's like when someone gets themselves "hyped up" in order to engage in a sport, pure emotion that is not grounded on anything real. In very bad cases like the some here, the Catholic faith becomes a weapon used against their neighbor all in the name of false charity.

The various circuмstances that the saints found themselves and consequently the various manners of acting and behaving flowed from a great influx and plenitude of the gifts of the Holy Ghost. Even with regard to acquired prudence, St. Gregory the Great explained the various way in which we ought to approach certain kinds of people with varying dispositions. Even this kind of prudence takes time and practice. You just can't do an end-run around the work it takes to build solid virtue and most certainly it's a disaster to try to vainly imitate the actions of saints who were inspired by the Holy Ghost. It is really just another form of Quietism, related oddly enough to the new "charismatics" who think they can call down extraordinary gifts at will. It is truly perverse.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 09, 2010, 03:25:57 PM »

You know that Arians in their time were not called "Arians," they were CATHOLICS who followed the opinions of the man Arius. This is the same for most heretical movements -- they take place under the banner of Catholicism. They could have appealed to the same "mercy" you are asking for, Matthew, said "Do we not believe in Christ like you? Go to Mass like you?"

Charity, throughout the history of the Church, has never meant passively swallowing the errors of others or assuming they are all good Catholics. St. Paul said "For the mystery of iniquity already worketh." He said "I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock." I can tell you, wolves may very well be at work on this website, iniquity may very well be at work on this website.

Debates and controversies keep the Church healthy. This kind of sentimental attitude has nearly killed it. Do you want to be Catholic, or part of a giant heretical sewing circle or form of social club, with Catholic trappings?

*****

You're saying, Matthew, that CM cannot have his view of the Crisis, that he must have yours. So you really do mean to impose on another Catholic's valid opinion. If he were really just a crank, why would it bother you so much that he thinks the faithful have been reduced to a handful? You aren't offended by roscoe's crank opinions -- you encourage them.

It is probable that you are disturbed by the suggestion that you are not Catholic. But if you are disturbed by something, chances are, it's your conscience bothering you, and CM is merely the external agent. When he calls me a heretic, it's almost comforting aggravation, like having a loveable little dog that nips your ankles. It's not offensive at all. A Catholic website without belligerent Feeneyites is like Times Square without freaks.

He is blind on the baptism of desire issue and misreading decrees; the most you can hold against him is that he's no St. Thomas theologically -- not yet anyway. This has led him to what I believe are rash and injurious conclusions. But does that mean he should be banned?

People say CM lacks charity ( while claiming not to be able to read anyone's heart ). Well, there are lots of ways to lack charity. Probably the best way is to lack the love of truth, and then end up screaming for the blood of Christ, because what He says makes you uncomfortable. Unfortunately, I see just that frightening attitude in the process of formation here. At AngelQueen it is already in full effect. How people can literally ban the very discussion of sedevacantism, and not see that they are sticking their heads in the sand, is beyond me.

*****

Not even Jesus tried to force belief on others, because it can't be done. I cannot believe that everyone here is good-willed and Catholic, and that has been made a condition of membership. Basically this site is being whittled down to SSPX, NO, and liberal sedes who are okay with the una cuм.

That is your comfort zone, Matthew, and since this is your site, that's your right. In the beginning, this site had no agenda, and I'd always kind of imagined you listening to each side and weighing their merits. That is, Matthew, I imagined you as intrigued by sedvacantism and keeping an open mind. Eventually, though, the mind has to settle, and yours appears to have settled.

One question -- what was the point of the ignore button?