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Offline Matthew

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Re: Young Catholics are being pressured...
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2024, 09:20:47 AM »
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  • Ever wonder why God designed humans the way he did? Both males and females? Between young male libido, and female not wanting to be alone, men and women are *driven* to want to spend time together. And then there's the infatuation or excitement a couple experiences when they first meet. What is that for?

    It's so marriages happen.

    Marriage is not a rational thing. Marriage is such a grave obligation with serious risks to your life and long term happiness -- the more a person thinks about it, the more he worries, calculates, the less he's going to be inclined to get married. Yes you want to TRY to be rational and choose a good spouse -- but when you finally decide to get married, it will be that 1% or 10% of your personality that's "crazy" or "YOLO" speaking -- NOT your rational side.

    EVEN IF IT TURNS OUT TO BE A GOOD CHOICE. You were still crazy, at least a little, to get married. So everyone who gets married is crazy, but that's OK.

    Along these same lines, you don't really *know* your spouse when you marry them, even if you courted for a year. It's more like getting your ham radio license. It shows you know the bare basics, but now you have your "license to learn". You want to make sure they're not an hopeless bum, narcissist, prima donna, libertine, etc. but beyond that -- have fun getting to know your spouse for real after marriage! That's why marriage is a lifelong contract. It only works in the long haul. It's not a short term relationship, *by nature*.

    Speak with those who have been married for a couple decades; they'll give you some perspective.

    (P.S. Everything I said above only applies to those practicing Catholic morality: i.e., no fornication, or other habitual sins against the Sixth and Ninth while unmarried.)
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    Online Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Young Catholics are being pressured...
    « Reply #16 on: April 30, 2024, 09:32:50 AM »
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  • It’s not just traditional Catholicism, there is poor marriage preparation everywhere. 

    Much marriage preparation information should have started years ago instead of waiting to get engaged.

    Budgeting, meal planning, money management, housecleaning,  cooking, manners, marriage preparation starts in the home and home economics in school. 

      The novus Ordo had sex Ed long before the public schools.  Catholics went along with perversion and communism.  

    I think it’s great that a priest encourages boys to court girls instead of other boys.  Also, it’s good to advise a boy to get a job before going out with a girl. 

    Everything starts at Home with God, father, mother, and children.  Grand parents, aunt, uncles, God parents are to direct family members toward Jesus Christ too.  Too many children are spoiled and seek pleasure only because older family members seek pleasures.  They choose pleasure over God.  When a child grows up the grand parent is afraid to correct a child because they are afraid of offending parents or grandchild instead of choosing God.






    May God bless you and keep you


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Young Catholics are being pressured...
    « Reply #17 on: April 30, 2024, 09:33:37 AM »
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  • But speaking of needing to be "a little crazy" to get married, the same goes for natural masculine ambition. A man has to be a little crazy, willing to stand out, willing to excel, be the first, the best -- that takes a certain willingness to turn off his reason but only A) temporarily and B) limited scope or area.

    For example when I wrote my games for Android. I wanted to see what I could accomplish. I invested a lot of time, and I did learn a lot. I didn't write the next Angry Birds, but I still have fond memories of that stage of my life. I learned a lot that I use in my career to this day.

    An even better example was when I first got married, I wrote an entire Warcraft II clone (that's a CD-ROM DOS game - Real Time Strategy) in the browser! Using primitive Javascript. Basically a master-class at what you could do with Javascript and the browser at the time. It was literally a webpage, that acted like a professional CD-ROM game. Changed mouse cursor, keybindings, everything. And Internet Explorer 6.0 (remember that?) even let you reassign the F5 key! Can you imagine that? It saved your progress to a server. There was a mini-map, and everything. I wish it still worked.

    I looked and looked, and couldn't find any other game on the Internet like it. I mean we're talking a browser game, in 2006. What kind of browser games (no install) would let you experience Warcraft II? Mine was with penguins instead of humans/orcs.

    But again -- I was motivated, and wanted to learn. I would never have time for that kind of project now, with the size of my family and land. Too many responsibilities. But as a single or newlywed -- yeah! Men need to be willing to take risks and tackle huge challenges and projects.

    And let's not forget the wild project of a city boy moving to the country! I had never owned land before *or even lived in a rural setting before* when I bought this place. I had to learn EVERYTHING about living and working in the country. Of course I have zero regrets on this heading and I wouldn't have it any other way -- but I'll readily admit that if I hadn't been a bit crazy, I would never have done it. Especially since we bought this place before we sold our first house.

    The same goes for having a large family. My wife had 2 brothers. I had 2 sisters (and when I was 14, my parents gave me a brother). So both of us were from average/small families. But we embarked on the "adventure" of Big Family life. And homeschooling life for that matter. My mom started homeschooling when I was a Junior in HS. Wife and her siblings all went to public school too. So we got almost comfortable with launching out into the deep, into uncharted territory, with only pre-Vatican II books and some older parishioners as our guide. Parents really weren't any help; they were typical Boomers. (3 formula-fed, vaxxed kids, sent to public school, live in the city, in a house with a 30 year mortgage, etc.)

    Or starting any business. It takes a certain risk appetite, a certain "healthy large self esteem", to pour yourself into a business that you think will succeed that others failed at, or no one else (but you) thought of!

    As I so often jokingly say, "You only live once, and I'm gonna prove it!"
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Young Catholics are being pressured...
    « Reply #18 on: April 30, 2024, 09:51:44 AM »
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  • But again -- I was motivated, and wanted to learn. I would never have time for that kind of project now, with the size of my family and land. Too many responsibilities. But as a single or newlywed -- yeah! Men need to be willing to take risks and tackle huge challenges and projects.

    Yeah, I've tried a half dozen different business endeavors over the years, and they've all failed ... and I'm currently working on one now that I'm somewhat hopeful about.  Mostly they go nowhere due to the lack of funding to get the word out (advertising / marketing), and they were solid apps / business ideas.  I have 2 that there's still nothing like out there yet and have promise that I might resurrect at some point.  I got close on one, was talking to the Cleveland Clinic about it, but had a guy I partnered with who was supposed to handle the sales, and he just did nothing to get the thing moving.  I had another one that a restaurant agreed to start using, but they were busy with other stuff (remodeling), and so they never go around to properly piloting it.  I have a new software package I'm working on that could bring huge value to business, and I have a different strategy this time to get the word out.  So I'm hopeful about this one, but then I was hopeful about some of the others as well.

    Your online Warcraft sounds awesome and was way ahead of its time.  Too bad I can't try it out.  Again, you ran into the same issue ... lack of the means and resources to get the word out.  I'm reluctant to seek venture capital, because those Jєωvestors will take most of the profit for all of your hard work, cashing in while you get a pittance for it all.

    Offline FarmerWife

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    Re: Young Catholics are being pressured...
    « Reply #19 on: April 30, 2024, 10:36:29 AM »
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  • If you want a guy with financial security, marry older, otherwise you have to start slow (e.g. renting an apartment). If you want many kids, as a woman, you should marry young. Usually younger people can have more patience dealing with babies and children and the sleep deprivation and pregnancy is easier.

    And when you say "work out", do you mean go to the gym or just lifting weights? Yeah, guys should do that to boost their testosterone.


    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: Young Catholics are being pressured...
    « Reply #20 on: April 30, 2024, 10:51:23 AM »
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  • Yeah, I've tried a half dozen different business endeavors over the years, and they've all failed ... and I'm currently working on one now that I'm somewhat hopeful about.  Mostly they go nowhere due to the lack of funding to get the word out (advertising / marketing), and they were solid apps / business ideas.  I have 2 that there's still nothing like out there yet and have promise that I might resurrect at some point.  I got close on one, was talking to the Cleveland Clinic about it, but had a guy I partnered with who was supposed to handle the sales, and he just did nothing to get the thing moving.  I had another one that a restaurant agreed to start using, but they were busy with other stuff (remodeling), and so they never go around to properly piloting it.  I have a new software package I'm working on that could bring huge value to business, and I have a different strategy this time to get the word out.  So I'm hopeful about this one, but then I was hopeful about some of the others as well.

    Your online Warcraft sounds awesome and was way ahead of its time.  Too bad I can't try it out.  Again, you ran into the same issue ... lack of the means and resources to get the word out.  I'm reluctant to seek venture capital, because those Jєωvestors will take most of the profit for all of your hard work, cashing in while you get a pittance for it all.

    Are you currently seeking investors?  I might be interested in your app.  You can DM if you want.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Young Catholics are being pressured...
    « Reply #21 on: April 30, 2024, 11:04:10 AM »
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  • Are you currently seeking investors?  I might be interested in your app.  You can DM if you want.

    Not just yet.  I still have some work to do on it and am targetting end of May to have  fiinished product.  I'm 90% of the way there, but need to put together an installer, and a website to market it and "sell" it.  At that point, it'll be a matter of getting the word out.  If I would end up partnering with anyone, it would be with Traditional Catholics and can send you a DM if it gets to that point.  I think it's pretty slick.  It's an an automated system to create various software that would normally require hundreds if not thousands of hours of development effort to produce.  I could even spin it as "AI" in a way (a loose use of the term, but it all is) and jump on the AI hype bandwagon.

    Offline pnw1994

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    Re: Young Catholics are being pressured...
    « Reply #22 on: April 30, 2024, 12:30:32 PM »
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  • Longtime attendee at large SSPX chapel here. I’ve touched on my personal experiences in other threads but man, I could fill a book with all the disastrous and broken marriage situations I’ve seen.

    We have one priest whose essentially entire job here at the chapel is to fix and deal with marriage issues. I know:

    multiple men whose wives left them within the first year of marriage.

    Numerous cases of infidelity.

    Countless cases of premarital pregnancies (so much so that we now have a rule requiring any bride marrying while pregnant to wear a red shawl on top of her white dress)

    Spousal abuse

    I could go on and on and on. And these are all 40+ year traditional Catholics. 

    I also know of many young men who were told to (or allowed to) simply drop out of high school with a barely grade 10 education. Now, some of them are basically illegible for marriage as the only jobs they can get are manual labour. I know some who clean up after cows on a farm now and can’t even read properly. Many of the kids have been expelled from boarding schools for drugs, sex, etc. all around a terrible situation. 
    God cannot leave a soul to swim
    That has not first abandoned Him.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Young Catholics are being pressured...
    « Reply #23 on: April 30, 2024, 12:36:38 PM »
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  • multiple men whose wives left them within the first year of marriage.

    Interesting that you call it out as the wives leaving their husbands.  EVERY single case of "separation" / abandonment I've seen was the wife leaving the huband and not the other way around, with the husband being upset that she left ... and none of the situations I know of entailed any kind of scenario that might justify separation (i.e. abuse, infidelity on the part of the husband, etc.).  Every time it's just the woman was unsatisfied / unhappy / unfulfilled, for whateverr reason, and just decided to split, leaving the husband broken-hearted, and often raising the children by himself, and the woman often didn't even look back or seek even partial custody.

    Offline pnw1994

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    Re: Young Catholics are being pressured...
    « Reply #24 on: April 30, 2024, 12:47:00 PM »
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  • Interesting that you call it out as the wives leaving their husbands.  EVERY single case of "separation" / abandonment I've seen was the wife leaving the huband and not the other way around, with the husband being upset that she left ... and none of the situations I know of entailed any kind of scenario that might justify separation (i.e. abuse, infidelity on the part of the husband, etc.).  Every time it's just the woman was unsatisfied / unhappy / unfulfilled, for whateverr reason, and just decided to split, leaving the husband broken-hearted, and often raising the children by himself, and the woman often didn't even look back or seek even partial custody.
    To be fair, I generally try not to pry into the particulars of who left for what reason. I just know that I’ve seen banns of marriage published, even attendee multiple weddings, and then some months or a heat later, I find out in hushed tones that so-and-so has moved back in to his family’s home with his with presumably having run off somewhere else.

    And yeah, in some cases the husband is left holding the bag and rearing the children.

    clearly there’s some deep issue here within the culture of the community. The priests, to their credit, do try their Best But they can’t be everywhere all at once, they’re travelling and doing mass circuits and most importantly can only fix or address what gets brought to their attention. That being said I think for a long time there was a feeling by the priests that, if two longtime traditional Catholic young people were coming to them engaged, minimal marriage preparation was required because the young people would be responsible and well formed and know what they’re getting into.

    heck, my own marriage prep years ago was simply a traditional priest making us read Castii Conubii and then ask my if I was physically capable of the marital act. 

    clearly the marriage prep needs to be SERIOUSLY beefed up. 
    God cannot leave a soul to swim
    That has not first abandoned Him.

    Offline Everlast22

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    Re: Young Catholics are being pressured...
    « Reply #25 on: April 30, 2024, 01:06:57 PM »
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  • To be fair, I generally try not to pry into the particulars of who left for what reason. I just know that I’ve seen banns of marriage published, even attendee multiple weddings, and then some months or a heat later, I find out in hushed tones that so-and-so has moved back in to his family’s home with his with presumably having run off somewhere else.

    And yeah, in some cases the husband is left holding the bag and rearing the children.

    clearly there’s some deep issue here within the culture of the community. The priests, to their credit, do try their Best But they can’t be everywhere all at once, they’re travelling and doing mass circuits and most importantly can only fix or address what gets brought to their attention. That being said I think for a long time there was a feeling by the priests that, if two longtime traditional Catholic young people were coming to them engaged, minimal marriage preparation was required because the young people would be responsible and well formed and know what they’re getting into.

    heck, my own marriage prep years ago was simply a traditional priest making us read Castii Conubii and then ask my if I was physically capable of the marital act.

    clearly the marriage prep needs to be SERIOUSLY beefed up.
    The priests in most cases are still putting the woman on the pedestal. Trad or not. You think they are having the counseling meetings with the woman holding most the "blame" for marriage problems? Maybe 1/10. This is how it's for the past 40 or so years. I say this over and over, we keep worshiping women today as if they can do no wrong. We are all poisoned by the world today, no matter how much of a bunker busting homesteading, traditional family, rod and staff larper you project to be.

    I have seen plenty of estranged marriages in trad circles and it's not even hard to tell. The wife hates being around her husband in public. Probably because he's a wimp, narcissist or both, but the man a lot of times just stops (if he ever was) being the man he is supposed to be. He got married, he made it, she's locked in, I win, she can't divorce me. I pay the bills, no need to do anything else.

    Then, there are some men who are the closest thing to saint Joseph, but the wife is not who he thought she was. THIS IS A BIG ONE. These guys I really feel for.

    I'm recently married, and our dynamic is very masculine/feminine, inside and out. We have our issues, but issues are worked out in time, and cultivation of charity towards one another. The CHARITY towards your closest love one is the most important virtue for a married couple.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Young Catholics are being pressured...
    « Reply #26 on: April 30, 2024, 01:12:20 PM »
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  • The priests in most cases are still putting the woman on the pedestal. Trad or not. You think they are having the counseling meetings with the woman holding most the "blame" for marriage problems? Maybe 1/10. This is how it's for the past 40 or so years. I say this over and over, we keep worshiping women today as if they can do no wrong. We are all poisoned by the world today, no matter how much of a bunker busting homesteading, traditional family, rod and staff larper you project to be.

    I believe this is partly due to a warped "chivalric" instinct that men have towards women, where they're inclined to hold them in esteem, assumed right unless proven wrong, pure, blameless, and, if anything goes wrong in the relationship, always the victim and never the perp.  It's why female mass murderers get off the hook with just probation and psychological treatment, with the belief that something must have made them do it, whereas men would get death row for the same crimes.  In the situations I saw, the men were not blameless or faultless, in the sense that they lived as perfect husbands and fathers, but they didn't actively do anything that would warrant the separation.  They worked, made plenty of money to support the wife and kids, with the wives often spending accordingly on themselves, did not abuse the wife or children either physically or verbally, but they were deemed "inadequate" by their wives somehow, not sufficient for the Prince Charming that every girl who is inherentiy a "Disney Princess" deserves and is entitled to.  Even the homeliest woman these days feels entitled to a guy that looks like Brad Pitt, has the physique of an Arnold Schwarzenegger, and the wallet of a Bill Gates ... who would then put her up on a pedestal and worship her.  They feel that unless they get that, i.e. what they consider themselves entitled to ... it's "beneath" them and insulting to them.  There are hugely overweight, homely, low-IQ, jobless women out on social media ludicrously laying down their demands for a husband tht they feel entitled to.  I think of it as "Disney Princess" cultural conditioning, where the women consider that they're all really Princesses and deserve the best ... having to pay no attention to their own shortcomings and unworthiness.  In one case very close to me, a blood relative, the poor man worked for the Secret Service (some of you might be able to figure out who this is), the kindest, most gentle man you'd ever meet, had a good job, made good money, etc., was attentive to his wife and children.  You know what turned the wife against him?  Well, at some point, they were shutting down the Secret Service office near us and his only option was to move to DC area or else find another job.  So he went to work for another government agency so he didn't have to move ... since he (and she) had their immediate family and many relatives in this area..  This got the woman enraged at him because ... she loved the fact that she could brag about being married to a Secret Service agent, believing this made her into an extremely important person, and she was fantasizing about going to DC and hob-knobbing with Senators, Congressmen, and perhaps even the White House staff.  She began a campaign of persecution and terror against him that I won't go into the details of, since it was incredibly cruel.  This wrecked the poor guy, to the point that his immune system crashed, and he ended up dying of cancer at a relatively young age.  Of course, because she had divorced him and the government life insurance policies were such that they strictly ruled out any claim by ex-spouses on the payout, she didn't get a penny, and now that he had died, she also didn't get any alimony or child support.  Both were Traditional Catholics.  He remained such til he died with the Sacraments, whereas she abandoned Catholicism entirely, having used the fact that he attended and made the family attend a "cult" at the Traditional chapel we've all gone to for decades, as ammunition against him during the divorce.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Young Catholics are being pressured...
    « Reply #27 on: April 30, 2024, 01:30:48 PM »
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  • multiple men whose wives left them within the first year of marriage.
    .

    How appalling. And are people that do this still given the sacraments? Or are they told they are public sinners until they return to their spouse? If people who abandon their spouse are given the sacraments, that tells everyone that spousal abandonment is not a mortal sin.


    Quote
    Countless cases of premarital pregnancies (so much so that we now have a rule requiring any bride marrying while pregnant to wear a red shawl on top of her white dress)

    Traditionally, a woman who was not a virgin at marriage was not permitted to wear a white dress at the wedding. This would include anyone who had lived in sin, was publicly known to have been unchaste, or is visibly pregnant at the wedding. It would even include a widow marrying again.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Young Catholics are being pressured...
    « Reply #28 on: April 30, 2024, 01:47:28 PM »
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  • To be fair, I generally try not to pry into the particulars of who left for what reason. I just know that I’ve seen banns of marriage published, even attendee multiple weddings, and then some months or a heat later, I find out in hushed tones that so-and-so has moved back in to his family’s home with his with presumably having run off somewhere else.

    And yeah, in some cases the husband is left holding the bag and rearing the children.

    clearly there’s some deep issue here within the culture of the community. The priests, to their credit, do try their Best But they can’t be everywhere all at once, they’re travelling and doing mass circuits and most importantly can only fix or address what gets brought to their attention. That being said I think for a long time there was a feeling by the priests that, if two longtime traditional Catholic young people were coming to them engaged, minimal marriage preparation was required because the young people would be responsible and well formed and know what they’re getting into.

    heck, my own marriage prep years ago was simply a traditional priest making us read Castii Conubii and then ask my if I was physically capable of the marital act.

    clearly the marriage prep needs to be SERIOUSLY beefed up.
    Could it be what the OP is saying:  people are being pressured and getting married too soon/to the wrong person?
    Revenge not yourselves, my dearly beloved; but give place unto wrath, for it is written: Revenge is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord. (Romans 12:19)

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Young Catholics are being pressured...
    « Reply #29 on: April 30, 2024, 02:22:18 PM »
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  • ...In one case very close to me, a blood relative, the poor man worked for the Secret Service (some of you might be able to figure out who this is), the kindest, most gentle man you'd ever meet, had a good job, made good money, etc., was attentive to his wife and children.  You know what turned the wife against him?  Well, at some point, they were shutting down the Secret Service office near us and his only option was to move to DC area or else find another job.  So he went to work for another government agency so he didn't have to move ... since he (and she) had their immediate family and many relatives in this area..  This got the woman enraged at him because ... she loved the fact that she could brag about being married to a Secret Service agent, believing this made her into an extremely important person, and she was fantasizing about going to DC and hob-knobbing with Senators, Congressmen, and perhaps even the White House staff.  She began a campaign of persecution and terror against him that I won't go into the details of, since it was incredibly cruel.  This wrecked the poor guy, to the point that his immune system crashed, and he ended up dying of cancer at a relatively young age.  Of course, because she had divorced him and the government life insurance policies were such that they strictly ruled out any claim by ex-spouses on the payout, she didn't get a penny, and now that he had died, she also didn't get any alimony or child support.  Both were Traditional Catholics.  He remained such til he died with the Sacraments, whereas she abandoned Catholicism entirely, having used the fact that he attended and made the family attend a "cult" at the Traditional chapel we've all gone to for decades, as ammunition against him during the divorce.

    Tell us how the children survived this mess, if you feel comfortable doing so.

    Did they stay with the father? How old were they when the family was torn apart? Are they good Catholics presently?