Here is the thread that spurred this post:

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Was-this-wrong-and-sinful

So we have yet *another* 24 year old who must needs stay at home with parents.

I have several friends in this situation -- it's an epidemic!

Here is what I wrote to the original poster, but this really applies to most young men (over 22) who still find themselves living with parents:

I agree with those who suggested moving out. You need to prioritize getting established enough to pay your own bills and live in your own house. It's not natural for a man of 24 to live under his parents' roof. A man has to be a man, stand up for his own principles, and be a leader more or less. It's hard to do that under another set of adults with their own beliefs, principles, and priorities.

Even if they were Traditional Catholics, your situation would be far from ideal. But the fact that they're objectively in error (Novus Ordo -- which is really another religion) makes living at home much worse.

Any further growth toward manhood will be stifled until you move out. That is the hard truth.

Your two parents brought you into this world, fed you baby food, cleaned up your messes when you were little, taught you how to use the toilet, and later on they helped you with school, taught you the Catholic Faith (ideally), and taught you countless other things as you grew up. Hopefully they made sure you got a drivers' license (some parents forget this step!) and advised you a bit on possible careers, college, etc.

But, frankly, at about 18 their work SHOULD be done. If you're not "grown up" now, you never will be. Or let's put it this way -- any further growing you need to do won't be with your parents' assistance. One way or another, their job is done.

In a normal world, every hard working (or non-lazy) man would be able to find work. I realize that isn't the case today -- but still, with a bit of effort, you should be able to find something. That might involve moving to another state, or require similar flexibility.

But that kind of sense of adventure is also a fundamental part of being a true man.






EDIT: Even if we grant that some men have an extremely hard time finding paid work, and that SOME cultures have constructs in place for multi-generational living, it doesn't change the point I'm trying to make.

It's a fact that in American culture, we don't do multi-generational living. Isn't it a bit hokey to be American in every way, but then because you can't get a job, you say, "Um... in Europe they have several generations in one household!"

It sounds like a joke or something. You get in the car to drive to church, intending to get there on time. But you're terrified to drive, so you drive 10 miles an hour. When the passengers complain, you say, "Hey, the modern world has too quick of a pace. We need to remember to stop and smell the roses once in a while. We're not New York protestant businessmen..."

Would that be a valid point, or just an excuse for cowardice while driving?

Why are so many trad males lacking a sense of direction?

One reason is that no direction you take is perfect.  The moment you open your front door you face challenges and risks, threats and temptations.  Each door immature Trads open or take a peek through via the spyhole, does not offer them the peaceful life of "The Shire".  Trads are very much like Hobbits.  And that can be OK for hundreds of years, but then not viable any more when Sauron arises and faces down the rest of middle-earth in a final all out battle.

It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no telling where you might be swept off to

Even if The Hobbit is only a children's story, it provides insights into the human psyche.  Especially the psyche of Trads, which is why many identify with it.

Bilbo's journey is a metaphor a search for maturity and completeness; his adventures are rites of maturation.  At the beginning of the story, Bilbo's personality is out of balance and not integrated. His masculinity, or Tookish aggressiveness, is repressed so that he is clinging rather immaturely to a childish way of life despite being the equivalent of about 20-30 in human years.  (Frodo is a different character but still faces a similar journey and tests but with a slightly different outcome).

The womb-like peace and security of Bilbo idyllic home is disturbed with the arrival of Gandalf, the wise old man.

At the start of the journey, Bilbo, like a typical young adolescent, is uncertain of his role, or place in the party.  He is called a "burglar", but he knows he isn't one, (fake it, till you make it?).  Even when he belatedly joins the party he keeps thinking he has made a mistake and wants to return home.

When Bilbo finds himself alone and separated from his friends inside the particularly threatening mountain domain of the goblins, he faces yet another test; the outcome of which will be a measure of his maturity.  With unprecedented courage he decides to face life rather than to withdraw from it.  When you stop to think about it this is a huge hurdle for Bilbo and completely outside his experience, but it is a "do or die" moment.  We all face these in life, sometimes at work, sometimes on the stairwell of the choir-loft.

Bilbo uses his wits and a profoundly evil tool, the ring, to effect his escape and help his friends.  Had he been a over-scrupulous Trad he would have thrown the ring away, or, never taken it from Gollum as that would be "stealing".  Bilbo had to balance stealing something from a creature that was trying to kill him and eat him, in order to save his life, and being scrupulously honest.  In the real world, normal practicing Catholics face such choices all the time and they choose the lesser of two evils.  e.g. Should I confront the homo-tolerance policy at work or keep my job and support my family effectively?  Should I go to University and then into corporate America or try to become a small holding farmer? Should I optimise my tax return?  It requires a mature mind to make these decisions, one that can judge your strengths and weaknessses and then live at peace with yourself knowing you chose the lesser of two evils.

Once he emerges from the Misty Mountains, Bilbo has the self-esteem needed to fulfil his responsibilities as a mature and trustworthy leader.  Interestingly, however, he also has an evil ring of power in his possession which he leverages to his advantage.

It is through his ingenuity (and the use of an evil ring) that his friends escape from the dungeon prisons in the subterranean halls of the wood-elves.

Why did Tolkien have Bard the Bowman of Esgaroth, rather than Bilbo, kill Smaug? Why is Bilbo, knocked unconscious and therefore ineffective during the Battle of Five Armies? In most Hollywood movies the normal outcome would be to have him demonstrate some incredible feat of heroism?  He has a ring of Power after all.  In the Narnia Chronicles mere schoolchildren become great warriors.

Tolkien does not have Bilbo kill Smaug, because that is the deed of a saviour. Bilbo ends the tale as a matured individual, confident of his own identity, able to think for himself.

- - -

Back in the real world.  You might go and work in the oil fields of North Dakota (3 weeks on 2 weeks off) and face the problems of hanging around an all male environment with secular people.  You might have to put yourself in city centres with brothels, nightclubs, business conferences, drunken colleagues asking you to accompany them to "titty bars" (has happened to me only once, but there was an implicit pressure to go with them).

Wind the clock back 30 years and this was not SUCH a problem but the constant  disgust with the way the modern world is has left people scared and paralysed and not ready to face, dragons and giant spiders and wood elves and goblins.  The world IS a threat, just as the nαzιs were a threat and the Muslim Caliphates were a threat and Pagan Rome was a threat.

It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no telling where you might be swept off to.

I think what Trads have often failed to do is teach their children that their faith is a sword and a shield (not a plastic bubble) and that life needs to be fought for not hidden away from.

Matthew I've known many men who moved their bride and had large families in their parents home. It's not natural for a 24 yo to be living at home? That is America suburban values not Catholic.

Looks like a woman cleaning up doing her duty, hope I can live up to it.  

Matthew I've known many men who moved their bride and had large families in their parents home. It's not natural for a 24 yo to be living at home? That is America suburban values not Catholic.

In my travels in (what remains of) Catholic Europe - Italy, Ireland, Malta, and (if you want to count them as a vestage of Christendom) Greece, it was the most traditional families who lived all under same the roof. If anything, the ones in those families (including my wife's in Greece) who wanted to get up and be off on their own were the young ones being poisoned by American culture.

There is indeed a crisis of lazy young adults who want to live under their parents' roofs without pulling their own weight, but the cure for that disease (for a Catholic family) should not be resorting to Protestant individualism / isolationism - which breaks up and weakens families.

And that creaking sound you hear is Mr. Tolkien turning in his grave over having his wonderful work being so abusively conscripted into the service of the Modernist Capitalist paradigm he hated so much.

In my travels in (what remains of) Catholic Europe - Italy, Ireland, Malta, and (if you want to count them as a vestage of Christendom) Greece, it was the most traditional families who lived all under same the roof. If anything, the ones in those families (including my wife's in Greece) who wanted to get up and be off on their own were the young ones being poisoned by American culture.

There is indeed a crisis of lazy young adults who want to live under their parents' roofs without pulling their own weight, but the cure for that disease (for a Catholic family) should not be resorting to Protestant individualism / isolationism - which breaks up and weakens families.

The closest I've seen to multi-generational living is extended families on the same land in separate homes. My own family doesn't have a family property, but most stay in the same geographic area and interact with each other often.

Could you tell me, generally, what the transition from young male to adult male would look like in a multi-generational home? What advice would you give to a 20-something Trad in a Trad family who doesn't work or really have any more responsibilities than he did when he was 15? Given that we do live in America, his parents might not welcome the idea of their married children staying at home, but would you recommend he only consider work possibilities close to their family home?

One young man lives in a terrible part of the country as far as present employment conditions. But, he has a minimum wage job for now and lives in a Trad home. Would you advise him to stay put? It took him years to find the job he has now, what would you recommend if he finds himself unemployed once again?

My son pushed me to read Hobbit because he thought I would enjoy it. He was right, I didn't want to put it down. What a contrast  to you Ggreg using it in your attempts to demean Christians with snide remarks and partial truths.

Matthew you are not thinking clearly to take up for him here and not ban him or call him out. Don't fall for this nonsense.

He's not demeaning anyone.

He's participating quite well in a thread I started and invited everyone's input. I have no problems with his contribution. I'm sure it will be a valuable part of the discussion.

Why not argue his points rather than resorting to ad-hominems and name calling?

I think what Trads have often failed to do is teach their children that their faith is a sword and a shield (not a plastic bubble) and that life needs to be fought for not hidden away from.

Well said!