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Author Topic: Would you Genuflect?  (Read 3027 times)

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Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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Re: Would you Genuflect?
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2022, 01:37:13 PM »
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  • Yes, this is along the lines of what I have done.  I would genuflect before the altar, with the intention of genuflecting before the Blessed Sacrament if or in case Our Lord is present, otherwise to relics in the altar and/or the altar crucifix.  Even when Mass is offered before an empty tabernacle, the altar servers still genuflect as directed by the rubrics.  There's the added consideration, if there are people present, that I would not wish to cause scandal to those who might be in there by refusing to genuflect to what they believe to be the Blessed Sacrament.  While I consider them to be in positive doubt, I also do not have certainty regarding the matter, so I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt towards reverence, even if in my mind I harbor mental reservation and conditionally redirect my reverence to the altar or the crucifix.

    Similarly, I address Novus Ordo priests as "Father," for the same reasons, even though personally I hold the opinion that their orders are doubtful and even likely invalid.

    Some argue that, well, if Our Lord is not present, then it's idolatry to genuflect.  Yes, materially and objectively, but not formally, since there is no intent to worship anyone or anything other than Our Lord.  So, too, if a person is mistaken materially regarding the presence of the Blessed Sacrament (e.g. thinks that Our Lord is there but is mistaken, say if a priest has removed the Blessed Sacrament but forgotten to extinguish the sanctuary lamp), that too would be material "idolatry" ... but nothing approaching formal idolatry.  That is not the same as genuflecting to a Pachamama by any stretch.  We're not the Prots who claim, for instance, that kneeling before a statue of Our Lord is idolatry.  Even the image or the thought or the concept of Our Lord is worthy of our reverence on account of Whom they represent, and the worship is directed toward the one Whose image is presented.  That's like claiming if someone kisses the picture of their mother, they're actually showing affection for a piece of paper, rather than for their mother.

    In any case, IF Our Lord is indeed present, I dare not NOT genuflect before Him.  Yet, if He is not there, it could be material idolatry.  So in either case, you could be doing something inappropriate (objectively or materially).  But I'd rather genuflect toward an altar/crucifix than to refuse to show the required reverence to the Lord God.

    EDIT:  that statement about people worshipping an empty tabernacle reminds of the time that Father Pfeiffer attacked Father Chazal for allegedly doing this on purpose::facepalm:
    Exactly my view as well, thanks for expressing it in detail.

    Online Mithrandylan

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    Re: Would you Genuflect?
    « Reply #16 on: August 16, 2022, 02:15:01 PM »
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    I don't genuflect to Novus Ordo tabernacles. However, I do occasionally visit cathedrals and I will kneel before the statues of saints, light candles, and pray. But I don't bless myself with their (non)holy water and I don't genuflect to their empty tabernacles. I suppose I should bow. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Would you Genuflect?
    « Reply #17 on: August 16, 2022, 04:55:25 PM »
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  • .
    I don't genuflect to Novus Ordo tabernacles. However, I do occasionally visit cathedrals and I will kneel before the statues of saints, light candles, and pray. But I don't bless myself with their (non)holy water and I don't genuflect to their empty tabernacles. I suppose I should bow.
    I'd say bowing would be appropriate in the old cathedrals since they were once Catholic.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Minnesota

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    Re: Would you Genuflect?
    « Reply #18 on: August 16, 2022, 04:59:35 PM »
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  • And part of my stance is that I don't feel personally qualified to judge whether the New Mass is valid or not as a layman with no status in the Church.
    Christ is Risen! He is risen indeed

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Would you Genuflect?
    « Reply #19 on: August 16, 2022, 07:41:41 PM »
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  • And part of my stance is that I don't feel personally qualified to judge whether the New Mass is valid or not as a layman with no status in the Church.

    OK, but that's true of us all.  So, if you can't judge whether it's valid OR NOT, you still have to make practical judgments about it ... such as what we're discussing here.


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Would you Genuflect?
    « Reply #20 on: August 16, 2022, 10:29:12 PM »
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  • The responses to this question are fascinating!

    The answers epitomize the traditional Catholic schizophrenia Bp. Williamson mentioned in his RTF interview last Thursday.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Would you Genuflect?
    « Reply #21 on: August 17, 2022, 07:10:22 AM »
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  • For those who say they would genuflect because they can't really know whether the consecration is valid or not, why don't you attend the Novus Ordo mass for the same reason? 

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Would you Genuflect?
    « Reply #22 on: August 17, 2022, 07:24:49 AM »
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  • For those who say they would genuflect because they can't really know whether the consecration is valid or not, why don't you attend the Novus Ordo mass for the same reason?
    "When in doubt, do without."


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Would you Genuflect?
    « Reply #23 on: August 17, 2022, 07:52:09 AM »
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  • The responses to this question are fascinating!

    The answers epitomize the traditional Catholic schizophrenia Bp. Williamson mentioned in his RTF interview last Thursday.
    I agree.  So, would you/would you not genuflect?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Would you Genuflect?
    « Reply #24 on: August 18, 2022, 06:54:15 AM »
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  • "When in doubt, do without."
    So wouldn't that work for both the validity of the consecration at the NO mass as well as the validity of the host in the tabernacle?  

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Would you Genuflect?
    « Reply #25 on: August 18, 2022, 07:05:48 AM »
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  • So wouldn't that work for both the validity of the consecration at the NO mass as well as the validity of the host in the tabernacle? 

    I don't see how the two are equivalent.  There might be some reason I would walk into an Orthodox church also, but I wouldn't assist at their schismatic Liturgy.

    I wouldn't attend (much less participate in) a Black Mass, but if I saw a validly-consecrated Host, I would still show the necessary reverence and attempt to rescue Our Lord from their clutches.

    We cannot receive doubtful Sacraments, but the situation here is that we find ourselves before a doubtful Blessed Sacrament.

    You might say, "Well, don't go into an NO church." to avoid this scenario, but I can see situations where this might happen, say, if I'm visiting St. Peter's or other churches in Rome on a trip to Italy.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Would you Genuflect?
    « Reply #26 on: August 18, 2022, 07:13:05 AM »
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  • I don't see how the two are equivalent.  There might be some reason I would walk into an Orthodox church also, but I wouldn't assist at their schismatic Liturgy.

    I wouldn't attend (much less participate in) a Black Mass, but if I saw a validly-consecrated Host, I would still show the necessary reverence and attempt to rescue Our Lord from their clutches.
    But the Novus Ordo is not a Black Mass nor an Orthodox liturgy.  The issue brought up here was that we can not know whether the Novus Ordo is certainly invalid/not Catholic.  So, why would we genuflect but not assist there? Wouldn't avoiding the NO mass also be disrespectful to Our Lord?  After all, He may be on that altar.   


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Would you Genuflect?
    « Reply #27 on: August 18, 2022, 07:30:32 AM »
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  • But the Novus Ordo is not a Black Mass nor an Orthodox liturgy.  The issue brought up here was that we can not know whether the Novus Ordo is certainly invalid/not Catholic.  So, why would we genuflect but not assist there? Wouldn't avoiding the NO mass also be disrespectful to Our Lord?  After all, He may be on that altar. 
    I would and have genuflected in a NO church, although that was a long, long time ago when we used to go to older NO priests for confession. The problem is that the new "mass" is a sacrilege, which makes the matter of whether the consecration within that "mass" is valid or not irrelevant, since either way we can't go there.

    Besides, wouldn't the devil prefer a valid sacrilege to an invalid one? If so, then it would be safe to assume that Our Lord would be in the tabernacle - if you can find the tabernacle in NO churches of course.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Would you Genuflect?
    « Reply #28 on: August 18, 2022, 01:22:44 PM »
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  • So wouldn't that work for both the validity of the consecration at the NO mass as well as the validity of the host in the tabernacle? 
    I don't recommend going to a NO church, nor attending their "mass", but sometimes we find ourselves in one for a funeral or such, to keep peace in the family.

    In these cases, a trad priest told me to look for a sanctuary lamp (many NO no longer use them) and, if one is present, to genuflect.  It shows respect in case Our Lord IS there.  It also show a good example for devout, but ignorant, NO catholics. 

    Bottom line is this: God knows our heart.

    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    Re: Would you Genuflect?
    « Reply #29 on: August 18, 2022, 02:27:31 PM »
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  • And part of my stance is that I don't feel personally qualified to judge whether the New Mass is valid or not as a layman with no status in the Church.
    Have you ever looked up what private judgment is? Here is what Dr. Orestes Brownson says reflecting the mind of the Church:


    Quote
    "Here is the error of our Protestant friends. They recognize no distinction between reason and private judgement. Reason is common to all men; private judgement is the special act of an individual …. In all matters of this sort there is a criterion of certainty beyond the individual, and evidence is adducible which ought to convince the reason of every man, and which, when adduced, does convince every man of ordinary understanding, unless through his own fault. Private judgement is not so called … because it is a judgement of an individual, but because it is a judgement rendered by virtue of a private rule or principle of judgement …. The distinction here is sufficiently obvious, and from it we may conclude that nothing is to be termed ‘private judgement’ which is demonstrable from reason or provable from testimony."

    (Brownson’s Quarterly Review, October 1852, p. 482-3. Emphasis added.)


    If you're afraid of making actual private judgments, such as sifting through the Pope's teaching to judge what is good and what is bad, you should recognize that you are not allowed to make private judgments such as those and by virtue of reason, applying the principles of the Church, conclude that a manifest apostate heretic cannot be the Vicar of Christ and the measure of faith.

    For more detail see here: https://novusordowatch.org/2015/12/sede-private-judgment/

    Most excellent excerpt from John Daly's book.