Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: spouse of Jesus on January 17, 2011, 09:16:52 PM
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A NO or a very liberal person tells you that s/he is catholic and respect all your choices and plans.
Does it mean you can marry without sharing in his/her actions?
For example if you are a woman and your NO husband wants pay a visit to a mosque, he won't force you to accompany him, but you will have to iron his shirts, tell him what to wear and then say "God speed" as he goes there.
And if you are a man and have such a wife you may have to drive her to that mosque and then fetch her, though "you are free to go home if you don't like to come in".
Then comes the habit of TV watching where everything is OK because s/he is not watching it for lust, but for education and entertainment! Whether by a satelite (as is closed Countries) or by TV (as in free societies) s/he spends 4 hours a day before TV. You will have to take children out lest they see what mom/dad is gazing at. It doesn't end here. s/he might ask you to keep him/her comapny and "lets watch it together".
You may have fought strong temptations for many years with the hope of being appreiciated by a future spouse. But he puts an end to your dream:" what ever sin you might have commited before marriage is all OK to me."
Any ideas?
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Personally I would NEVER marry such a person for sake of my children (and for my own convenience and comfort). I would never want my children to think that attending a pagan temple is "OK", nor would I want them to think that the garbage that is displayed on TV is fine for "entertainment/education". If their father thinks that way, then his children will come to posses the same mindset. Even if she were the last woman on earth available I would NEVER take someone to be my spouse who does not take the 1st Commandment seriously or thinks that public sin is acceptable.
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Because the only person you can live with peacefully your whole life is you - best to find someone as much like you as possible........if you want peace that is.
The more devout you are, it seems like the more it would hurt you to see your spouse living a false religion. And I don't believe that he/she would let you do your own thing in peace for very long.
Once the flames of passion dwindle, your screwed ~ jmho.
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Personally I would NEVER marry such a person for sake of my children (and for my own convenience and comfort). I would never want my children to think that attending a pagan temple is "OK", nor would I want them to think that the garbage that is displayed on TV is fine for "entertainment/education". If their father thinks that way, then his children will come to posses the same mindset. Even if she were the last woman on earth available I would NEVER take someone to be my spouse who does not take the 1st Commandment seriously or thinks that public sin is acceptable.
:applause:
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If I had been a traditional Catholic when I met my husband, I would not have married him. He was a very lapsed Catholic, though. In my current mindset, I really don't see how I could marry a NO Catholic. If I couldn't find a traditional Catholic, or a person who was willing to convert before we got married, I would probably just remain unmarried.
I think of this a lot because our oldest son will soon be 19. He has started "looking". I really worry for him and the future of any grandchildren that we may possibly have.
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I wasn't a traditional Catholic when I met and married my H. He was a cradle Novus Ordo Catholic at the time .... very liberal minded. We've each become more traditional and conservative over the 20 years of our marriage.
If was 23 and a traditional Catholic, I'd only look within this group of people. As it is, I've developed more strictly than my H has and up until recently, it was causing problems.
My son is 18 and my daughter is 16. I, too am concerned about them especially because we know no other traditional Catholics and attend only the Novus Ordo mass.
We are completely unable to make any changes in our circuмstances and will not be able to attend traditional masses with any regularity.
Recently, I've come to the conclusion that God intends that we stay here and see this thing through..for the greater good.
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CathMom & MrsZ,
Do you know about the traditional Catholic websites for young people? I don't know the websites offhand, but maybe one of the young people here do. I understand that some of the young folks get to know each other pretty well on those sites after they've conversed on them awhile.
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I'm sorry, I didn't see your question until just now.
Frankly, I'm a little wary of any internet "Friend" or "Dating" type sites, even for Traditional Catholics. Even with the best of intentions, it can create the opportunity for intimate conversations that wouldn't be the case if the people were meeting face to face with their family in their midst.
I realize some people have had good results ... but our children are still very young and very inexperienced with "the world" and I'm afraid without our direct guidance, they could easily fall prey to the very things we fell prey to in our youth.
One of the worst fears a parent can have! :sad:
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You have to be careful about "too much control" -- the words "direct guidance" sound a bit controlling as well.
If you were talking about your 15 or 16 year old, maybe -- but at some point you have to let your children test the strength of their own virtues, and hope (and pray!) you did a good job.
If your "child" of 18 is determined to experience "love" with or without God's blessing, there's little you can do but pray.
The foundation for doing God's will must be laid much earlier.
But being over-controlling can seriously backfire. I've seen it many, many times.
I think it would be better for them to fall in love "long distance" with another traditional Catholic via a dating site than to have them end up meeting some Novus Ordo (or worse) face-to-face and have that cause problems.
Fornication had no problem flourishing before the Internet. There is also nothing intrinsically evil (or different) about the Internet. If anything, it's a great blessing for our age, a remedy to go with the disease of widely dispersed traditional Catholics.
Besides, no matter what they talk about remotely, they still have to meet eventually, and that's when you get out the rules, chaperones, etc.
Matthew
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Is it really that difficult to convert a NO Catholic into a Trad Catholic?
What about the Miraculous Medal?
I was born a NO, and here I am. Believe it or not, the "Traditionalist Gospel" has not reach every person on Earth yet. The Traditionalist Movement is not really as known as you expect.
I see a prejudice here... That's not good.
I found the SSPX, on my own. There are not a lot of Trads spreading the news about Mons-Lefebvre. It started 40 years ago, and yet little is known.
When a Catholic hears about for the first time, first thought would be that is a new thing. Once you hear it's 40 years old, you could think it's a sect, which is not (I know). That doesn't help much, but discriminating your fellow Catholics makes things even worse.
I would have become a Trad much earlier in my life if I would have known that such an option existed, that would have actually spared me from committing a lot of sins.
You shouldn't speak of NO people as if they would be Muslims, Buddhists, or Jews. It's just not fair, and it's not their fault.
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My entire extended family is novus ordo. Some of them, you just can't talk to. Others you do talk to, end up talking to the novus ordo part of the family, and get re-brainwashed. It's totally counterproductive.
To say that they "can't help it," ain't necessarily so.
Some of these people are so comfortable with their "special" layperson duties that they've been given. It's almost like a police officer with a new shiny badge, that is on a power trip. You can't talk to most of them.
I was novus ordo until I was 14. Fortunately I was caught early enough (and JUST IN TIME) before I was completely brainwashed and would have lost my faith.
Our extended family ostracized us because they claimed we "weren't Catholic." My grandmother was the primary culprit. Her little matriarchy lead to the ruin of the rest of the family, and their complete unwillingness to listen to the truth.
We still don't have a relationship with them, although, I have tried to talk to some of my cousins (of which I have 88, last time I counted, probably more) but they're so brainwashed most of the time, they dismiss you as a loon.
I would say it wouldn't be the "fault" of the younger people, but for the OLDER people that experienced what it was to be a Catholic before the changes, to outright dismiss and reject those that cling to the faith as "schismatics" and whatever lame label they want to place on "traditionalists" leads people to believe they totally reject the faith with their own free will, and choose the erroneous path of the newchurch.
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Like I said before...
You seem to think that the Traditionalist Movement is Universally Known, guess what?, it isn't.
I could understand if you tried really hard, and spent many years praying for their conversion without any positive results.
But you can not put every NO person who knows nothing YET about the Traditionalist Movement into the same Bag, and like I said, there are Millions of them.
When was the last time you travelled abroad?
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You shouldn't speak of NO people as if they would be Muslims, Buddhists, or Jews. It's just not fair, and it's not their fault.
Like I said before...
You seem to think that the Traditionalist Movement is Universally Known, guess what?, it isn't.
I could understand if you tried really hard, and spent many years praying for their conversion without any positive results.
But you can not put every NO person who knows nothing YET about the Traditionalist Movement into the same Bag, and like I said, there are Millions of them.
I think you are mistaken here. Actually, the traditional Catholic should treat the Novus Ordo Catholic (I prefer the term "Conciliar Catholic") just as one would treat the Muslim, Buddhist, Jew, or Protestant. They are all in need of conversion.
It is true that some are open to the faith, but many are not. Those who have the faith know something is wrong in the Conciliar Church and, while they usually won't immediately embrace the True Faith and the Catholic religion, it will stick with them and a well-formed conscience will eventually call them to tradition.
Traditional Catholicism is definitely NOT known in Conciliar circles. I grew up in an area that had numerous traditional Catholic communities yet I never heard of them. It didn't help that my parents subscribed to The Wanderer and that publication solemnly warned its readers against the SSPX.
Clearly, one should not shun Conciliar Catholics, but rather, one should pray for them and introduce, according to their understanding, the traditional Catholic religion. What one should not do, however, is to "go along just to get along." If they are not "open" to traditional Catholicism, don't condemn (unless they demand your acceptance of evil, such as, their divorce and remarriage or their sodomite lover, etc.); but rather, give a good example of true Christian charity. Above all, pray for yourself and for them.
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It is true that some are open to the faith, but many are not. Those who have the faith know something is wrong in the Conciliar Church and, while they usually won't immediately embrace the True Faith and the Catholic religion, it will stick with them and a well-formed conscience will eventually call them to tradition.
That's what I'm saying. I know a lot of Catholics who would not hesitate to become Traditionalists, and I'm doing my part, I'm sharing the info.
The problem I see is not that the people would reject the Traditionalist Movement, the problem I see is that the Traditionalist Movement has not reached a lot of Catholics like them yet.
Putting them on a Box together with Protestants do not help, that's isolation. I can't imagine St. Paul keeping it just among His closest Friends...
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My entire extended family is novus ordo. Some of them, you just can't talk to. Others you do talk to, end up talking to the novus ordo part of the family, and get re-brainwashed. It's totally counterproductive.
To say that they "can't help it," ain't necessarily so.
Some of these people are so comfortable with their "special" layperson duties that they've been given. It's almost like a police officer with a new shiny badge, that is on a power trip. You can't talk to most of them.
I was novus ordo until I was 14. Fortunately I was caught early enough (and JUST IN TIME) before I was completely brainwashed and would have lost my faith.
Our extended family ostracized us because they claimed we "weren't Catholic." My grandmother was the primary culprit. Her little matriarchy lead to the ruin of the rest of the family, and their complete unwillingness to listen to the truth.
We still don't have a relationship with them, although, I have tried to talk to some of my cousins (of which I have 88, last time I counted, probably more) but they're so brainwashed most of the time, they dismiss you as a loon.
I would say it wouldn't be the "fault" of the younger people, but for the OLDER people that experienced what it was to be a Catholic before the changes, to outright dismiss and reject those that cling to the faith as "schismatics" and whatever lame label they want to place on "traditionalists" leads people to believe they totally reject the faith with their own free will, and choose the erroneous path of the newchurch.
You're onto something here, PFT.
When you meet a "Novus Ordo Catholic" who hates/rejects/despises Tradition, you really have someone who rejects the FAITH (there's no "Traditional Catholic", strictly speaking -- just Catholic) and chooses man -- fellowship, approval, respect, honors, pleasures -- rather than God.
When someone talks about how "hard" our Traditional Catholicism sounds -- that's one of the bad signs. It means they suspect it's true, but won't embrace it because they have inordinate attachments.
In this sense, the Novus Ordo IS a competing, false religion.
This illustrates just how severe the Crisis in the Church is; the Novus Ordo religion is probably one of the worst false religions there is! Here is why: No other has the name "Catholic", which serves as a shield for the bad-willed to defend themselves against their own conscience, even when they know something is wrong.
The problem is, you can't write off ALL Novus Ordo Catholics as being in this category. That is a simplistic mistake that many, unfortunately, make.
Speaking about "conversion" of N.O. Catholics is a tricky subject. On the one hand, they DO need conversion in a way, to see if they will choose God or man when faced with the choice. But, nevertheless, some can be deluded by their priest, the Catholic name they bear, etc. and be genuinely convinced that traditionalists are too extreme.
That's why, in the end, only God can judge.
Matthew
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Parentsfortruth said:
Some of these people are so comfortable with their "special" layperson duties that they've been given. It's almost like a police officer with a new shiny badge, that is on a power trip. You can't talk to most of them.
That's an interesting theory. As I was saying in the thread about my mom, I've recently gotten back in touch with my dad, after being estranged for many years, and since we last talked he has gone from an atheist to a full-blown Novus Ordo Catholic. When I mentioned purgatory, his comment was "That's not the religion I converted to," not seeing at all that for me the idea that my mom is in purgatory is my great HOPE.
They have also made him an "altar" server and he is really caught up in the community. Is that how they draw you in, they flatter you and make you feel important?
It seems like everyone I talk to these days goes to the Novus Ordo church. Even the cops who came when my mom died were Novus Ordo, at least two of them. It's starting to feel like I'm in some Invasion of the Body Snatchers movie, I'm telling you. Almost every week at Church some traditional Catholic ( but as Matthew says, we are just Catholics ) is dying or has died, my mom who went to CMRI with me is dead, and on and on. But the Novus Ordos just keep coming. I'm preparing my siege mentality.
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As to whether I would marry a Novus Ordo -- no way. This may be a controversial statement, but in many cases, I'd rather marry an atheist as long as she gave me some signs that she wasn't too adamant and was willing to listen to the truth, to raise the kids Catholic, etc.
I'm not going to marry either, don't worry. I'm just making a point.
I am less uncomfortable around certain atheists than I am around certain Novus Ordo people. That is because the atheists at least aren't dragging God into their fantasy world. What is so offensive about many Novus Ordo Catholics is that they try to mold God to their own wills, they decide to believe something that pleases them and then stick the label "God" on their own fancies. They heap up teachers to themselves with itching ears.
Timothy 3:1-3:5 --
Know also this, that, in the last days, shall come dangerous times. Men shall be lovers of themselves, covetous, haughty, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, wicked, Without natural affection, truce breakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, stubborn, puffed up, and lovers of pleasures more than of God: Having an appearance indeed of godliness, but denying the power thereof. Now these avoid.
I think that quote from St. Paul that I put in bold is the most stunning prediction of certain Novus Ordo "Catholics." They claim to serve God while stripping Him of his power, of His efficacy to really change people, for them He has become some vague, loving force. It's very New Agey.
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Matthew (my son's name as well :wink:) You are right. Using the expression "direct guidance" infers that I think I can make this decision for my nearly grown son (and daughter). As an aside what do you call a nearly grown "child" ? I guess either "son" or "daughter." Anyway, I agree that ultimately it's going to be their choice, for better or for worse. I think, however, that parent's should be respected by the sons/daughters "even" after the ripe old age of 18.
I don't know that one thing is better than another; exposure to N.O. types versus Traditional Catholics via the internet. The trouble is, we do not participate in a Traditional Catholic Parish, nor do we currently have any opportunities to do so.
Who our son and daughter have the most exposure and interaction with on a day to day basis are non Christians..through work, lessons, etc. Our parish "life" is non existent, because our experience with them is that they are just as worldly as their "non believing" counterparts. But I'm wondering if that's really fair. Aren't N.O. that go to Mass every week and Holy Day, better than those without any Christian belief?
As I said, I realize I'm not in control of this. That's why I'm not involved in "telling" my son or daughter to involve themselves in online Trad Catholic "dating" at this point. What I've told them all these years is that they have to marry a practicing Catholic and that if they are called to marriage, who they marry is going to likely be the most important decision they will ever make ... for better or for worse. They have also been taught that there's no point in pursuing getting to know someone better if they aren't prepared to be married...for our son that means a steady income and preparation to have a home and provide for a family.
He's nowhere near that at this point and I hope he holds it together. He'll need lots of spiritual strength to resist the allures of the average 18-20 year old girl. He's met plenty in his line of work and schooling. Thankfully, nothing, so far.
Of course that could change in a heartbeat ... and I'm praying day in and day out that God leads him in the right direction, St. Michael is his Patron. We pray for his intercession every night.
Our daughter has zero interest in her appearance or dating or trying to attract boys. She's interested in dogs and horses and continuing her education. She believes it'll be years yet before she's in a position to consider being married. She also doesn't really know if that's going to be her vocation.
I'm going to have her read "The Catholic Girls Guide" in the next few weeks (I'm reading it now :wink:). It's a really good book that I wish I'd read when I was her age.
So, all in all, I can only hope and pray and be here to help our son and daughter transition to adulthood and offer "guidance" in making these very important decisions.
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MrsZ said:
That's why I'm not involved in "telling" my son or daughter to involve themselves in online Trad Catholic "dating" at this point.
A couple months ago I signed up for an account at CatholicMatch. Though I'm not going to get married, I wanted to look and see what was out there. Maybe that's wrong, or I was too curious. I don't do it anymore.
But I just found that site flabbergasting. Like EWTN, it has an appearance of being Catholic but I was picking up a very subtle demonic mockery. They ask each person seven questions, such as "Do you accept the Immaculate Conception of Mary?" "Do you accept the Church's teaching on birth control?" and "Do you accept the Church's teaching on papal infallibility?"
Think about it. If someone answers "no" to any of these questions, they are not Catholic, not even by Vatican II standards, so why are they on a Catholic dating site? Why don't they go on Match.com? And why would a "Catholic" site allow you to choose whether you believe dogmas in the first place, giving people the impression that these things are optional.
Here again, we see the nominal title of "Catholic" but it has been robbed of all its force. People have some vestigial instinct to call themselves Catholic, but then they simply remove everything about the religion that bothers them. They would be less hypocritical if they were atheists. While waiting for take-out food the other day, I read an interview with Danny DeVito where he says something like "I'm Catholic but I take out the hell and just keep the fun stuff."
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Parentsfortruth said:
Some of these people are so comfortable with their "special" layperson duties that they've been given. It's almost like a police officer with a new shiny badge, that is on a power trip. You can't talk to most of them.
It's starting to feel like I'm in some Invasion of the Body Snatchers movie, I'm telling you. Almost every week at Church some traditional Catholic ( but as Matthew says, we are just Catholics ) is dying or has died, my mom who went to CMRI with me is dead, and on and on. But the Novus Ordos just keep coming. I'm preparing my siege mentality.
So true!!! YES!! I feel the exact same way.. its like I'm in some fake-o world and its surreal. I can't believe things are the way they are now and its just getting worse. Its not my lack of hope or anything, its just what it is. Peoples bodies are being taken over by insanity and hypocrisy. I really hope I can purge of the hypocrisy I have done in my life and hopefully am still not doing.
:geezer:
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I wouldn't be interested in marrying a NO Catholic. I would want to marry a Traditional Catholic woman. These days dating online on Traditional Catholic sites may be the only way some people can find a Traditional Catholic spouse. I know the SSPX has an online dating service. I'd use that before ever marrying an NO person.
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I wouldn't be interested in marrying a NO Catholic. I would want to marry a Traditional Catholic woman. These days dating online on Traditional Catholic sites may be the only way some people can find a Traditional Catholic spouse. I know the SSPX has an online dating service. I'd use that before ever marrying an NO person.
You might consider networking and contact other parishes. I was at a small gathering in Cincy over the summer and met some Trads from OH and MI, and Cincy is around a 3.5hr drive for me. In Evansville there are very few Trads so I have to meet people through other friends.
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A couple months ago I signed up for an account at CatholicMatch. Though I'm not going to get married, I wanted to look and see what was out there. Maybe that's wrong, or I was too curious. I don't do it anymore.
But I just found that site flabbergasting. Like EWTN, it has an appearance of being Catholic but I was picking up a very subtle demonic mockery. They ask each person seven questions, such as "Do you accept the Immaculate Conception of Mary?" "Do you accept the Church's teaching on birth control?" and "Do you accept the Church's teaching on papal infallibility?"
Think about it. If someone answers "no" to any of these questions, they are not Catholic, not even by Vatican II standards, so why are they on a Catholic dating site? Why don't they go on Match.com? And why would a "Catholic" site allow you to choose whether you believe dogmas in the first place, giving people the impression that these things are optional.
I rather like their seven questions ... a bit of a nod to the reality that there are a wide variety of people who consider themselves to be Catholic. Of course, you simply ignore anyone who didn't answer "yes" to 100% of the questions.
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Its real easy to get access to our traditional faith online and through traditional books but it is very hard to know where to go to find traditional catholics to hook up with in your area.
There are singles, widowers, even homeschoolers like ourselves that are in need of a traditional catholic network. Some of us our fortunate to have high populations of traditionals but I think alot of us are isolated.
If anyone knows a facebook for traditional catholics Id like to know but for now this catholic forum is the next best thing.
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Not to be a nit-picker, but you might want to avoid the phrase "hooking up", especially when we're talking about Catholic dating.
The slang is modern, but it's used all over the place.
"hook up" has the same meaning as "one night stand".
I know, it's frustrating when dirty minds take over all sorts of words. But you pretty much have to give up the phrase in honor of reality.
It's a shame we can't talk about "intercourse" with other people -- the word's connotation is too powerful these days.
It's especially evil because you see phrases like that used in old spiritual works -- before the word had a vulgar meaning. So it almost makes the classic works inaccessible, since language has changed so much.
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That's what I'm saying. I know a lot of Catholics who would not hesitate to become Traditionalists, and I'm doing my part, I'm sharing the info.
The problem I see is not that the people would reject the Traditionalist Movement, the problem I see is that the Traditionalist Movement has not reached a lot of Catholics like them yet.
Putting them on a Box together with Protestants do not help, that's isolation. I can't imagine St. Paul keeping it just among His closest Friends...
There you go, that's the spirit! What a joy to read these loving words!
:applause:
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If she were willing to convert to the Catholic Faith and give up the New Order sect.
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There's a thread at AngelQueen about an unfortunate man's marital troubles. She is Novus Ordo, he's not. His wife wants out of the marriage and went to the Novus Ordo tribunal to get an annulment. She got it. They have kids.
There's a cautionary tale for anyone who answers in the affirmative to the question proposed in the title of this thread. Novus Ordo-minded people and traditional-minded people are like oil and water, in many cases.
I have seen this from personal experience. I know of another man who is married to a militant Novus Ordo woman. He is in misery. Since the Novus Ordo has a strong feminist component, many women are attracted to it and these women are, in my opinion, to be avoided like the plague.
But remember how easy it is to get annulments in the Novus Ordo, and just how different that "religion" ( of self, not of God ) is despite being nominally Catholic.
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Considering the stories within Holy Writ about God telling various people to marry those they would have never otherwise considered, I would hesitate to say, "I would NEVER marry so-and-so, or such-and-such." God's adorable WILL is the key -- the ONLY key.
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There's a thread at AngelQueen about an unfortunate man's marital troubles. She is Novus Ordo, he's not. His wife wants out of the marriage and went to the Novus Ordo tribunal to get an annulment. She got it.
That about like taking a wooden nickel for your paycheck. They are still married plain and simple. No is all about what people want.
Feminism has nothing to do with empowerment. It destroys the woman
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gladius_veritatis said
Considering the stories within Holy Writ about God telling various people to marry those they would have never otherwise considered, I would hesitate to say, "I would NEVER marry so-and-so, or such-and-such." God's adorable WILL is the key -- the ONLY key.
I didn't mean to make any sweeping generalizations, though I guess I did. Okay, if you see something to work on there, if you perceive some kind of raw material that can be shaped into a solid Catholic wife, then I suppose the risk of marrying a Novus Ordo lady might be worth it.
Or you might end up like one of those girls who dates the bad boy in order to "reform" him, I don't know. When I was on CatholicMatch I didn't see one Novus Ordo girl that I would consider going on a single date with, let alone marrying. Even those who weren't heretics. Their whole attitude was way too worldly. They have this Disneyland mentality, so many of the Novus Ordo girls.
Ultimately a traditional Catholic should run his choice of mate by his priest, and each individual case would have to be decided that way. Priests do often know when a marriage is inappropriate. My grandfather, who once thought of becoming a priest, was told not to marry my grandmother by his priest. He disobeyed, and my grandmother took him out of the Church and their kids, including my mom, were not baptized.
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The general principles hold, to be sure. However, life is full of surprises and we must take things as they come -- not as we would have them to be or as some pre-conceived list would dictate. Rules have their place, but God's will is/trumps everything.
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Considering the stories within Holy Writ about God telling various people to marry those they would have never otherwise considered, I would hesitate to say, "I would NEVER marry so-and-so, or such-and-such." God's adorable WILL is the key -- the ONLY key.
Ok. but how do you know if something is God's will?
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Considering the stories within Holy Writ about God telling various people to marry those they would have never otherwise considered, I would hesitate to say, "I would NEVER marry so-and-so, or such-and-such." God's adorable WILL is the key -- the ONLY key.
Ok. but how do you know if something is God's will?
Sometimes it's easy to determine what God's Will is, other times it's not quite so easy. For instance, we know off the crack of the bat that He Wills for people to be Traditional Catholics. That is easy to figure out for those who know their faith well, but something like figuring out if He Wills for us us to move somewhere or something like that isn't always easy. When it comes to marriage though, that's usually an easy one. We know God would not want a Traditional Catholic to marry an atheist, for example, or anyone who was not Christian. God might lead some Traditionalists to date NO Catholics so that they can spread to them the truth. On a regular basis I would not marry an NO Catholic, but God does lead some to convert them to the Traditional stance.
As far as knowing what God's Will is, if you are unsure, the best thing you can do is pray about it. It may be quite a while before God answers your prayers, but sooner or later He will. The Holy Ghost does not play games. Some kind of way God is going to let you know what His Will is. Some people have a hard time interpreting His Will, they don't know that something is or is not His Will. Of course, the misunderstanding is obviously on their side. Other times they don't care what God Wills, they ignore it and do their own will. That, however, is dangerous. If you do your own will rather than God's, it is going to decrease your chance of getting to Heaven. So to sum up my answer to your question, simply pray to God and ask what His Will for you is. You likely won't get an answer right away, but don't get discouraged. When God is ready to reveal to you what He wants, He surely will.
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Thanks for the tip I dont mind a little criticism from people whose hearts in the right place. I guess I will use the term "getting together" or getting acquainted.
We are so drenched in mainstream language, fashion, thinking, religion that one doesnt realize it. Thats why it good to be around like minded catholics who are on guard for their faith if we come together and share our insights I think it would benefit everyone greatly.
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There's a thread at AngelQueen about an unfortunate man's marital troubles. She is Novus Ordo, he's not. His wife wants out of the marriage and went to the Novus Ordo tribunal to get an annulment. She got it.
That about like taking a wooden nickel for your paycheck. They are still married plain and simple. No is all about what people want.
Feminism has nothing to do with empowerment. It destroys the woman
You think there is no chance at all that the marriage could have been invalid and that the tribunal was right?
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You think there is no chance at all that the marriage could have been invalid and that the tribunal was right?
Obviously we don't know the particulars, but look at pre-Vatican II annulments and post-Vatican II annulments. Compare the rates. One can only conclude that 95% or more the post Vatican II annulments are bogus.
All this garbage is said today about people not being able to marry validly, people being different, people not "fully giving consent" - being "immature" and thereby "invalidating" the sacrament, is pure humbug.
We had an SSPX priest practically give a sermon with almost the same point of view, talking about how younger people today are supposedly immature, practically incapable of marriage. It was one thing that really clued me into the rottenness that is taking over the SSPX. If young people raised in Trad Catholic homes aren't capable, then what is the point of raising them that way?
If they were capable in the past they are certainly capable today. But the wolves in sheeps clothing that have hijacked the SSPX give a conciliar friendly line. Always.
They will condemn something only when they have no choice. Otherwise, collaboration is their new plan.
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Sigismund said:
You think there is no chance at all that the marriage could have been invalid and that the tribunal was right?
No, there is no chance.
Do you know what basically the only reason is under REAL Catholic law for invalidating a marriage? Impotence. Well, this couple has kids. BUSTED.
What are the stats, Tele? Do you have the actual numbers? I know it's something ridiculous, like 500 divorces over a decade pre-Vatican II, and then in the 60's, there are tens of thousands of divorces.
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As to whether I would marry a Novus Ordo -- no way. This may be a controversial statement, but in many cases, I'd rather marry an atheist as long as she gave me some signs that she wasn't too adamant and was willing to listen to the truth, to raise the kids Catholic, etc.
I'm not going to marry either, don't worry. I'm just making a point.
I am less uncomfortable around certain atheists than I am around certain Novus Ordo people. That is because the atheists at least aren't dragging God into their fantasy world. What is so offensive about many Novus Ordo Catholics is that they try to mold God to their own wills, they decide to believe something that pleases them and then stick the label "God" on their own fancies. They heap up teachers to themselves with itching ears.
Timothy 3:1-3:5 --
Know also this, that, in the last days, shall come dangerous times. Men shall be lovers of themselves, covetous, haughty, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, wicked, Without natural affection, truce breakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, stubborn, puffed up, and lovers of pleasures more than of God: Having an appearance indeed of godliness, but denying the power thereof. Now these avoid.
I think that quote from St. Paul that I put in bold is the most stunning prediction of certain Novus Ordo "Catholics." They claim to serve God while stripping Him of his power, of His efficacy to really change people, for them He has become some vague, loving force. It's very New Agey.
Genius.
Its ironic. Many times the people who just passively attend the Novus Ordo mass and are not really involved in church outside of Mass on Sundays have a whole lot more Catholic sense than those Novus Ordites that are completely steeped in their brainwashing system (i.e., they do the readings in church, "give out" Communion, always buddying up to the priests, active in "youth group" etc) - in my experience its this second type of people who are completely mindless when it comes to matters of the Faith. They are so steeped in their new philosophy that they have little or no capacity (or will) to even consider traditional Catholicism.
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Does no one else here see their old selves in this conversation? This is the "me" of about 10 years ago:
[(i.e., they do the readings in church, "give out" Communion, always buddying up to the priests, active in "youth group" etc)
Well, not quite, but close.
I wanted to post my old Catholic Match profile last night to see if I would have been "just like all the others", but I didn't have time and I need to run now, too. So, maybe tomorrow...
carry on! : )
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I agree with GV, we should pray to marry someone that God Wills. Then trust Him you won't desire or fall for anyone expect His Will. I know of young people who were raised Traditional Catholic and married, then both became Protestant, I know Traditional Catholics who married and the marriage was a disaster for one reason or another.
I also know of mixed marriages that resulted with a conversion from the spouse that was outside the church.
Pray always for the Will of God, next trust Him.
Sometime a traditional marriage might look shaky but we can't see the big picture, the end result, which is to bring each other to heaven. Bringing each other to heaven does not always mean a Cinderella type life, it might mean a life of suffering in different ways.
Surprises happen, face it, there are some traditional nuns and priests that today are NO.
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Vladimir said:
They are so steeped in their new philosophy that they have little or no capacity (or will) to even consider traditional Catholicism.
Exactly. This is what my dad seems to be like, who has become Novus Ordo. He has not shown the slightest shred of curiosity about traditional Catholicism, beyond saying "You go to your church because that's what comforts you, I go to mine because that's what comforts me" ( I can't remember the exact words, but that was the gist ). Which led me to laugh under my breath and begin a retort, before deciding it wasn't the time or place.
I'm not sure how the argument came down to not marrying a Novus Ordo woman vs. doing God's will. Does that mean that marrying into the Novus Ordo is God's will? I doubt many traditional priests would concur. While I agree with the idea that there are always exceptions, I'm speaking generally, which is that it is very, very rarely God's will to marry someone who is obstinately devoted to a twisted philosophy, a worldly attitude, and a bulk of heresies, all of which, to add insult to injury, calls itself Catholicism and claims holiness. Is that too bold?
Who do you know who has done so and has lived to tell the tale? I can't think of a single trad who has consciously gone out and married a Novus Ordo. If he or she were dating someone who was Novus Ordo, I'd think that before the marriage took place, there would have to be some signs that that person was willing to change. In which case they would no longer really be Novus Ordo. It would be foolhardy to marry someone who is devoutly Novus Ordo, if you'll excuse the oxymoron.
As for traditionalists who become Prots, Myrna, that is another kettle of fish entirely. That doesn't mean that everything is random and we should all go out and have mixed marriages because you can't count on anyone anyway... ( Which is the logical conclusion to what you're saying ). Trads falling away is probably due to the idealism and perfectionism and exaggerated expectations that some of them have. Fifties-ism, etc. They think at first they have found the magical kingdom of the fairy queen, but in reality, trad Catholics or not, they're still in a fallen world.
If you are attuned, I think you can get a sense of who is at risk of falling out or not, more or less. We don't have 100% psychic accuracy but there are certain signs. Some people act like Catholicism is a burden on them and they are champing at the bit to be free, even if they don't say it. Others have traits that are worldly, such as they expect a certain level of financial comfort. And then there are others who express the virtues, patience and humility, resignation in suffering and gratitude to Christ... While even in that case, it's not a sure thing the person will stay the course, they are a good bet for marriage. It's not rocket science.
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While I agree with the idea that there are always exceptions, I'm speaking generally, which is that it is very, very rarely God's will to marry someone who is obstinately devoted to a twisted philosophy, a worldly attitude, and a bulk of heresies, all of which, to add insult to injury, calls itself Catholicism and claims holiness. Is that too bold?
No, it is not too bold -- as stated. I only brought up God's will because what you have stated is not actually what I understood as the actual question in the OP. Perhaps I misread it or read it too hastily (which I readily confess I do from time to time).
The guidelines are what they are for a reason, although they are not, nor are they meant to be, universally applicable in the absolute sense -- something about which I believe we are all sufficiently clear.
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Does that mean that marrying into the Novus Ordo is God's will? I doubt many traditional priests would concur.
Did contracting a mixed marriage in pre-V2 days mean the Catholic was "marrying into" the sect/false religion? It seems that saying so would be a bit of a stretch, to put it mildly.
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That doesn't mean that everything is random and we should all go out and have mixed marriages because you can't count on anyone anyway... ( Which is the logical conclusion to what you're saying ).
By all means, everyone should NOT go out and seek a mixed marriage. What I meant is, most of the time we can't count on our own judgement, which is why we must pray and trust in God, to find a mate for us. Marriage can be an instrument of conversion, yes? If a traditional Catholic was dating a staunch NO Catholic, I doubt the courtship would go so far as them wanting to take a walk to the altar anyway. But that is just my simple mind set. When a person is constantly looking for that perfect person, they probably will never find him/her.
One traditional Caholic women dating a traditional Catholic man, resulting in a marriage is also no guarantee of anything, is my only point here.
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glaudius_veritatis said:
Raoul76 said:
Does that mean that marrying into the Novus Ordo is God's will? I doubt many traditional priests would concur.
Did contracting a mixed marriage in pre-V2 days mean the Catholic was "marrying into" the sect/false religion? It seems that saying so would be a bit of a stretch, to put it mildly.
I'm not sure how that slipped by... My guardian angel must have been on a coffee break. I didn't mean that, of course.
I realize now why you are nitpic -- taking me to task about doing God's will. It is because I said I'd NEVER marry a Novus Ordo woman. I would date her and give her a year or so to learn about "traditionalism." You apparently see this as being closed-off to the will of God, I see it more as the will of God willing that I not marry someone in the Novus Ordo.
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Myrna said:
Marriage can be an instrument of conversion, yes?
It can also be an instrument of apostasy. Have you ever seen how married couples often take on the personalities and opinions of their partners?
Yes, to your question. If you are already married to someone who is a Prot or atheist or what have you, if you're stuck in that situation, you should do your best to bring them around.
But to be a traditional Catholic and to throw yourself into shark-infested waters by marrying a NO? Presumably you've dated them for a year or so, and that hasn't changed them, so how would a ring change anything? Sure, it might, but you're also risking your soul.
It smacks of overconfidence to me. Should I go into a brothel, right into one of the boudoirs, and risk temptation in the hopes of saving a prostitute? But prostitutes need conversion too, don't they?
I think people have to be really careful because -- this is one of my little theories -- I believe the "dream guy" or "dream girl" is often the wrong person. I believe these are often marriages based on little more than lust, and that this has been a major factor in the rise of Vatican II, marriages that are displeasing to God. Such a dream partner may appeal to us on a base, instinctive level that we cloak in all kinds of pious sentiments. But God wants us to look beneath the surface. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a physical attraction, but I don't think it should be OVERWHELMING. There are certain women that make me feel feverish and dizzy and obsessed, and others that make me feel calm and peaceful -- the latter is the kind I would marry, even if there was less bestial attraction.
Someone can easily be seduced away from religion entirely by marrying the wrong person, or seduced into a false religion... It happens all the time, and I'd say, far more often than the alternate. God doesn't ask us to throw ourselves into risky situations to save someone; it's supposed to happen more naturally. In such a case, is it really that you're marrying this person in order to "convert" them, or is that you have an attraction to them that you can't or don't want to resist and so you give yourself an excuse? Again, how often do you think it's really God's will to marry someone who fervently embraces the Novus Ordo? I think someone doing this would be delusional.
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Raoul, somehow you missed my sentence above, "If a traditional Catholic was dating a staunch NO Catholic, I doubt the courtship would go so far as them wanting to take a walk to the altar anyway."
You see we agree, on this more than disagree.
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Sigismund said:You think there is no chance at all that the marriage could have been invalid and that the tribunal was right?
No, there is no chance.
Do you know what basically the only reason is under REAL Catholic law for invalidating a marriage? Impotence. Well, this couple has kids. BUSTED.
What are the stats, Tele? Do you have the actual numbers? I know it's something ridiculous, like 500 divorces over a decade pre-Vatican II, and then in the 60's, there are tens of thousands of divorces.
I don't see why impotence should invalidate a marriage unless it was in play before the marriage. If it began after the marriage was consummated, would it?
I also can't agree that emotional or psychological immaturity or mental illness could not invalidate a marriage. If people are incapable of really understanding or committing to a Catholic marriage, how could it be valid? Also, what about a couple who uses contraception and is not open to children. It seems to me that this is arguably invalid. As an aside, this would be far less of an issue if more priests actually believed what the Church teaching about birth control and marriage.
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If it began after the marriage was consummated, would it?
No :)
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You apparently see this as being closed-off to the will of God, I see it more as the will of God willing that I not marry someone in the Novus Ordo.
The ideas we have mentioned so far are but two sides of the one coin of truth where this matter is concerned. I totally agree that the general rules are absolutely sound and exist for very good reason. That is why, in the past, one had to get permission to contract a mixed marriage. Sadly, that is not possible at the moment, as the priests of Traddieland do not possess offices, nor even the faculties to marry people. They do so, sure, but that is not the same as possessing the faculties to do so.
FWIW, I was not seeking to nitpick, but saw an idea that was clearly amiss/expressed amiss and felt it should be addressed. No biggie. C'est la vie :)
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A NO or a very liberal person tells you that s/he is catholic and respect all your choices and plans.
Does it mean you can marry without sharing in his/her actions?
Objectively speaking, you could. But would it be right, or desirable? I would not say so.
For example if you are a woman and your NO husband wants pay a visit to a mosque, he won't force you to accompany him, but you will have to iron his shirts, tell him what to wear and then say "God speed" as he goes there.
And if you are a man and have such a wife you may have to drive her to that mosque and then fetch her, though "you are free to go home if you don't like to come in".
Then comes the habit of TV watching where everything is OK because s/he is not watching it for lust, but for education and entertainment! Whether by a satelite (as is closed Countries) or by TV (as in free societies) s/he spends 4 hours a day before TV. You will have to take children out lest they see what mom/dad is gazing at. It doesn't end here. s/he might ask you to keep him/her comapny and "lets watch it together".
You may have fought strong temptations for many years with the hope of being appreiciated by a future spouse. But he puts an end to your dream:" what ever sin you might have commited before marriage is all OK to me."
Any ideas?
That's an extreme situation, but I would not offer my blessing on a wife who went to a buddhist temple or meeting; in fact, in that situation, I'd likely knife the tires on the car before I'd let it happen, because it's mortal sin, and if I really cared for her soul, especially since I'm married to it, I would attempt to prevent it. I certainly could not in good conscience approve it, or not do anything to curtail or prevent it. But then if this was what I had courted, I probably would not have engaged it to begin with, as it would only get rockier if she did not express an interest or will in changing. I don't think it's a good thing to be in a "mixed" relationship, as the Church has condemned them. So no, I would not marry a liberal novus order, Protestant, Atheist, etc. As the purpose of the marriage could not be fulfilled.
Frankly, I'm a little wary of any internet "Friend" or "Dating" type sites, even for Traditional Catholics. Even with the best of intentions, it can create the opportunity for intimate conversations that wouldn't be the case if the people were meeting face to face with their family in their midst.]/quote]
Less than desirable situations can occur in any venue where communication is possible. Obviously, for an early meeting, the family in the midst would keep things clean, but long term, the relationship can hit a brick wall when frank conversations about important subjects cannot be brooked openly. There are matters of consequence of opinion, such as religion and details about their personalities, that won't be displayed in the presence of a "judge", so they won't be as frank with each other, and it may not turn out if a chaperon is present at all times. It may also prompt them to attempt to communicate behind the chaperon's back, which is not a precedent that would be healthy. If they're putting on a face for the family, there is not as much opportunity to converse with the real person. Better to know who they really are up front than to find out later. Let's just hope and pray that they have the maturity and good character and maintain it.
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Many people are indeed misguided for no fault of their own. I have met people who say very very strange things about our faith. And if you ask them :"who said that???" they say that it is what a priest or some man/woman in the church told them. or worse:" it is what the nun in that movie was doing."
Yes they are people who paid a visit to a church out of curiousity and were trying to ask questions. But they are misfortunate enough to meet ignorant people there. (or those afraid to speak about their faith).
So not every NO is really guilty especially when there is no exposure to tradition.
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You wouldn't be slightly prejudiced now, would you, spouse? :surprised:
There's an easy answer to this, already alluded to by Clodovicus. If you are dating someone who is Novus Ordo, give them a trial period, explain tradition to them. If they show themselves to be completely uninterested or hostile, I would take a walk. It's easier said than done though.
Spouse, we are often told not to judge, but that works both ways. Just like we can't judge if someone has evil intent, we also can't judge if they're innocent in the eyes of God. Many who are in the Novus Ordo HAVE been exposed to tradition and have rejected it with vigor. Many are in the Novus Ordo not only because they have been indoctrinated that way, but because they genuinely like it, I'm sorry to say. They genuinely don't want to hear the truth and like this watered-down form of religion lacking the power thereof ( St. Paul ).
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Spouse, we are often told not to judge, but that works both ways. Just like we can't judge if someone has evil intent, we also can't judge if they're innocent in the eyes of God. Many who are in the Novus Ordo HAVE been exposed to tradition and have rejected it with vigor. Many are in the Novus Ordo not only because they have been indoctrinated that way, but because they genuinely like it, I'm sorry to say. They genuinely don't want to hear the truth and like this watered-down form of religion lacking the power thereof ( St. Paul ).
Wow, this is SO TRUE!
I wish everyone would wake up and realize this.
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The Novus Ordite in the original post sounds like a closet Muslim!
The problem with the question is that, in today's crisis, an "NO Catholic" could mean ANYTHING from a flaming liberal, pro-choice, Obama loving, pro-gαy marraige, rainbow sash liturgical dancer to an "NO Catholic" who goes to the Motu Mass, attends a reverent NO on occasion, and believes in Catholic morality and dogmas 100%.
That said, if you are currently a Traditional Catholic, I'm not sure why you wouldn't aim to open yourself up to other Traditional Catholics as potential marriage partners as your first choice.
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The kind of NO Catholics who despise Tradition and won't listen to it, most certainly wrote this wikipedia article. It exemplifies their fact twisting, biased, condescending authoritarian nastiness.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottaviani_Intervention#cite_note-3