Author Topic: would you ever marry a NO? (Read 7981 times)

Raoul76 · « **Reply #30 on:** February 15, 2011, 10:15:40 PM »

gladius_veritatis said

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Considering the stories within Holy Writ about God telling various people to marry those they would have never otherwise considered, I would hesitate to say, "I would NEVER marry so-and-so, or such-and-such." God's adorable WILL is the key -- the ONLY key.

I didn't mean to make any sweeping generalizations, though I guess I did. Okay, if you see something to work on there, if you perceive some kind of raw material that can be shaped into a solid Catholic wife, then I suppose the risk of marrying a Novus Ordo lady might be worth it.

Or you might end up like one of those girls who dates the bad boy in order to "reform" him, I don't know. When I was on CatholicMatch I didn't see one Novus Ordo girl that I would consider going on a single date with, let alone marrying. Even those who weren't heretics. Their whole attitude was way too worldly. They have this Disneyland mentality, so many of the Novus Ordo girls.

Ultimately a traditional Catholic should run his choice of mate by his priest, and each individual case would have to be decided that way. Priests do often know when a marriage is inappropriate. My grandfather, who once thought of becoming a priest, was told not to marry my grandmother by his priest. He disobeyed, and my grandmother took him out of the Church and their kids, including my mom, were not baptized.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #31 on:** February 15, 2011, 10:21:45 PM »

The general principles hold, to be sure. However, life is full of surprises and we must take things as they come -- not as we would have them to be or as some pre-conceived list would dictate. Rules have their place, but God's will is/trumps everything.

spouse of Jesus · « **Reply #32 on:** February 16, 2011, 03:47:00 AM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

Considering the stories within Holy Writ about God telling various people to marry those they would have never otherwise considered, I would hesitate to say, "I would NEVER marry so-and-so, or such-and-such." God's adorable WILL is the key -- the ONLY key.

Ok. but how do you know if something is God's will?

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #33 on:** February 16, 2011, 02:04:04 PM »

Quote from: spouse of Jesus

Quote from: gladius_veritatis
Considering the stories within Holy Writ about God telling various people to marry those they would have never otherwise considered, I would hesitate to say, "I would NEVER marry so-and-so, or such-and-such." God's adorable WILL is the key -- the ONLY key.

Ok. but how do you know if something is God's will?

Sometimes it's easy to determine what God's Will is, other times it's not quite so easy. For instance, we know off the crack of the bat that He Wills for people to be Traditional Catholics. That is easy to figure out for those who know their faith well, but something like figuring out if He Wills for us us to move somewhere or something like that isn't always easy. When it comes to marriage though, that's usually an easy one. We know God would not want a Traditional Catholic to marry an atheist, for example, or anyone who was not Christian. God might lead some Traditionalists to date NO Catholics so that they can spread to them the truth. On a regular basis I would not marry an NO Catholic, but God does lead some to convert them to the Traditional stance.

As far as knowing what God's Will is, if you are unsure, the best thing you can do is pray about it. It may be quite a while before God answers your prayers, but sooner or later He will. The Holy Ghost does not play games. Some kind of way God is going to let you know what His Will is. Some people have a hard time interpreting His Will, they don't know that something is or is not His Will. Of course, the misunderstanding is obviously on their side. Other times they don't care what God Wills, they ignore it and do their own will. That, however, is dangerous. If you do your own will rather than God's, it is going to decrease your chance of getting to Heaven. So to sum up my answer to your question, simply pray to God and ask what His Will for you is. You likely won't get an answer right away, but don't get discouraged. When God is ready to reveal to you what He wants, He surely will.

copticruiser · « **Reply #34 on:** February 16, 2011, 06:25:01 PM »

Thanks for the tip I dont mind a little criticism from people whose hearts in the right place. I guess I will use the term "getting together" or getting acquainted.

We are so drenched in mainstream language, fashion, thinking, religion that one doesnt realize it. Thats why it good to be around like minded catholics who are on guard for their faith if we come together and share our insights I think it would benefit everyone greatly.

Sigismund · « **Reply #35 on:** February 16, 2011, 09:00:19 PM »

Quote from: TraceG

Quote from: Raoul76
There's a thread at AngelQueen about an unfortunate man's marital troubles. She is Novus Ordo, he's not. His wife wants out of the marriage and went to the Novus Ordo tribunal to get an annulment. She got it.

That about like taking a wooden nickel for your paycheck. They are still married plain and simple. No is all about what people want.
Feminism has nothing to do with empowerment. It destroys the woman

You think there is no chance at all that the marriage could have been invalid and that the tribunal was right?

Telesphorus · « **Reply #36 on:** February 16, 2011, 09:09:54 PM »

Quote from: Sigismund

You think there is no chance at all that the marriage could have been invalid and that the tribunal was right?

Obviously we don't know the particulars, but look at pre-Vatican II annulments and post-Vatican II annulments. Compare the rates. One can only conclude that 95% or more the post Vatican II annulments are bogus.

All this garbage is said today about people not being able to marry validly, people being different, people not "fully giving consent" - being "immature" and thereby "invalidating" the sacrament, is pure humbug.

We had an SSPX priest practically give a sermon with almost the same point of view, talking about how younger people today are supposedly immature, practically incapable of marriage. It was one thing that really clued me into the rottenness that is taking over the SSPX. If young people raised in Trad Catholic homes aren't capable, then what is the point of raising them that way?

If they were capable in the past they are certainly capable today. But the wolves in sheeps clothing that have hijacked the SSPX give a conciliar friendly line. Always.

They will condemn something only when they have no choice. Otherwise, collaboration is their new plan.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #37 on:** February 16, 2011, 09:26:33 PM »

Sigismund said:

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You think there is no chance at all that the marriage could have been invalid and that the tribunal was right?

No, there is no chance.

Do you know what basically the only reason is under REAL Catholic law for invalidating a marriage? Impotence. Well, this couple has kids. BUSTED.

What are the stats, Tele? Do you have the actual numbers? I know it's something ridiculous, like 500 divorces over a decade pre-Vatican II, and then in the 60's, there are tens of thousands of divorces.

Vladimir · « **Reply #38 on:** February 17, 2011, 12:16:10 AM »

Quote from: Raoul76

As to whether I would marry a Novus Ordo -- no way. This may be a controversial statement, but in many cases, I'd rather marry an atheist as long as she gave me some signs that she wasn't too adamant and was willing to listen to the truth, to raise the kids Catholic, etc.

I'm not going to marry either, don't worry. I'm just making a point.

I am less uncomfortable around certain atheists than I am around certain Novus Ordo people. That is because the atheists at least aren't dragging God into their fantasy world. What is so offensive about many Novus Ordo Catholics is that they try to mold God to their own wills, they decide to believe something that pleases them and then stick the label "God" on their own fancies. They heap up teachers to themselves with itching ears.

Timothy 3:1-3:5 --

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Know also this, that, in the last days, shall come dangerous times. Men shall be lovers of themselves, covetous, haughty, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, wicked, Without natural affection, truce breakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, stubborn, puffed up, and lovers of pleasures more than of God: Having an appearance indeed of godliness, but denying the power thereof. Now these avoid.

I think that quote from St. Paul that I put in bold is the most stunning prediction of certain Novus Ordo "Catholics." They claim to serve God while stripping Him of his power, of His efficacy to really change people, for them He has become some vague, loving force. It's very New Agey.

Genius.

Its ironic. Many times the people who just passively attend the Novus Ordo mass and are not really involved in church outside of Mass on Sundays have a whole lot more Catholic sense than those Novus Ordites that are completely steeped in their brainwashing system (i.e., they do the readings in church, "give out" Communion, always buddying up to the priests, active in "youth group" etc) - in my experience its this second type of people who are completely mindless when it comes to matters of the Faith. They are so steeped in their new philosophy that they have little or no capacity (or will) to even consider traditional Catholicism.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #39 on:** February 17, 2011, 12:24:12 AM »

Does no one else here see their old selves in this conversation? This is the "me" of about 10 years ago:

Quote from: Vladimir

[(i.e., they do the readings in church, "give out" Communion, always buddying up to the priests, active in "youth group" etc)

Well, not quite, but close.

I wanted to post my old Catholic Match profile last night to see if I would have been "just like all the others", but I didn't have time and I need to run now, too. So, maybe tomorrow...

carry on! : )

MyrnaM · « **Reply #40 on:** February 17, 2011, 08:15:02 AM »

I agree with GV, we should pray to marry someone that God Wills. Then trust Him you won't desire or fall for anyone expect His Will. I know of young people who were raised Traditional Catholic and married, then both became Protestant, I know Traditional Catholics who married and the marriage was a disaster for one reason or another.

I also know of mixed marriages that resulted with a conversion from the spouse that was outside the church.

Pray always for the Will of God, next trust Him.

Sometime a traditional marriage might look shaky but we can't see the big picture, the end result, which is to bring each other to heaven. Bringing each other to heaven does not always mean a Cinderella type life, it might mean a life of suffering in different ways.

Surprises happen, face it, there are some traditional nuns and priests that today are NO.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #41 on:** February 17, 2011, 11:03:51 AM »

Vladimir said:

Quote

They are so steeped in their new philosophy that they have little or no capacity (or will) to even consider traditional Catholicism.

Exactly. This is what my dad seems to be like, who has become Novus Ordo. He has not shown the slightest shred of curiosity about traditional Catholicism, beyond saying "You go to your church because that's what comforts you, I go to mine because that's what comforts me" ( I can't remember the exact words, but that was the gist ). Which led me to laugh under my breath and begin a retort, before deciding it wasn't the time or place.

I'm not sure how the argument came down to not marrying a Novus Ordo woman vs. doing God's will. Does that mean that marrying into the Novus Ordo is God's will? I doubt many traditional priests would concur. While I agree with the idea that there are always exceptions, I'm speaking generally, which is that it is very, very rarely God's will to marry someone who is obstinately devoted to a twisted philosophy, a worldly attitude, and a bulk of heresies, all of which, to add insult to injury, calls itself Catholicism and claims holiness. Is that too bold?

Who do you know who has done so and has lived to tell the tale? I can't think of a single trad who has consciously gone out and married a Novus Ordo. If he or she were dating someone who was Novus Ordo, I'd think that before the marriage took place, there would have to be some signs that that person was willing to change. In which case they would no longer really be Novus Ordo. It would be foolhardy to marry someone who is devoutly Novus Ordo, if you'll excuse the oxymoron.

As for traditionalists who become Prots, Myrna, that is another kettle of fish entirely. That doesn't mean that everything is random and we should all go out and have mixed marriages because you can't count on anyone anyway... ( Which is the logical conclusion to what you're saying ). Trads falling away is probably due to the idealism and perfectionism and exaggerated expectations that some of them have. Fifties-ism, etc. They think at first they have found the magical kingdom of the fairy queen, but in reality, trad Catholics or not, they're still in a fallen world.

If you are attuned, I think you can get a sense of who is at risk of falling out or not, more or less. We don't have 100% psychic accuracy but there are certain signs. Some people act like Catholicism is a burden on them and they are champing at the bit to be free, even if they don't say it. Others have traits that are worldly, such as they expect a certain level of financial comfort. And then there are others who express the virtues, patience and humility, resignation in suffering and gratitude to Christ... While even in that case, it's not a sure thing the person will stay the course, they are a good bet for marriage. It's not rocket science.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #42 on:** February 17, 2011, 11:32:12 AM »

Quote from: Raoul76

While I agree with the idea that there are always exceptions, I'm speaking generally, which is that it is very, very rarely God's will to marry someone who is obstinately devoted to a twisted philosophy, a worldly attitude, and a bulk of heresies, all of which, to add insult to injury, calls itself Catholicism and claims holiness. Is that too bold?

No, it is not too bold -- as stated. I only brought up God's will because what you have stated is not actually what I understood as the actual question in the OP. Perhaps I misread it or read it too hastily (which I readily confess I do from time to time).

The guidelines are what they are for a reason, although they are not, nor are they meant to be, universally applicable in the absolute sense -- something about which I believe we are all sufficiently clear.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #43 on:** February 17, 2011, 11:34:50 AM »

Quote from: Raoul76

Does that mean that marrying into the Novus Ordo is God's will? I doubt many traditional priests would concur.

Did contracting a mixed marriage in pre-V2 days mean the Catholic was "marrying into" the sect/false religion? It seems that saying so would be a bit of a stretch, to put it mildly.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #44 on:** February 17, 2011, 01:33:26 PM »

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That doesn't mean that everything is random and we should all go out and have mixed marriages because you can't count on anyone anyway... ( Which is the logical conclusion to what you're saying ).

By all means, everyone should NOT go out and seek a mixed marriage. What I meant is, most of the time we can't count on our own judgement, which is why we must pray and trust in God, to find a mate for us. Marriage can be an instrument of conversion, yes? If a traditional Catholic was dating a staunch NO Catholic, I doubt the courtship would go so far as them wanting to take a walk to the altar anyway. But that is just my simple mind set. When a person is constantly looking for that perfect person, they probably will never find him/her.

One traditional Caholic women dating a traditional Catholic man, resulting in a marriage is also no guarantee of anything, is my only point here.