Author Topic: Would we have eaten animals had the Fall not happened?  (Read 843 times)

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Offline Disputaciones

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Would we have eaten animals had the Fall not happened?
« on: August 23, 2018, 06:12:05 PM »
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  • I don't care if it's "God approved" to kill animals to eat them, the way things are right now in slaughterhouses, it's just brutal and horrifying to watch, and the mere idea of killing an animal to eat it just seems bad anyway.

    So is this a punishment for original sin and something that wouldn't have happened?

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Would we have eaten animals had the Fall not happened?
    « Reply #1 on: August 23, 2018, 07:04:06 PM »
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  • I don't care if it's "God approved" to kill animals to eat them, the way things are right now in slaughterhouses, it's just brutal and horrifying to watch, and the mere idea of killing an animal to eat it just seems bad anyway.

    So is this a punishment for original sin and something that wouldn't have happened?

    At least you admit that God allowed us to eat meat. That's a good start.

    It's hard to say what life would be like without Original Sin. No suffering, having to study, aging, death -- if I could have all that, I'd gladly give up fried chicken. 

    Even after Original Sin, the world was a VASTLY different place before the flood. There used to be a large water canopy over the whole earth, which blocked most UV radiation and regulated temperature. Imagine no temperature extremes at the North Pole or the equator! It allowed for larger land animals, and the higher pressure/oxygen level allowed everything to be larger, healthier, and more vigorous, including man. And with the increased protection from UV, man used to live to be 700 - 900 years. Plus less of the earth was covered with water, so travel was much easier.

    But the world today is what it is. It's very hard to get around eating meat, especially if you do any physical work.

    As for the killing of animals for meat, we're not supposed to be a bunch of squeamish SJWs about it. If we lived a more natural lifestyle, not separated from nature and reality, we would grow up around the small-scale, humane harvesting of animals and it wouldn't seem like a big deal.

    Also, Disney has perpetuated the notion that deer (for example) are just like us, only with antlers. We've been anthropomorphizing animals utilizing a power (computers, TV, movies) that didn't exist 120 years ago.

    Most conservatives (let alone Christians or Catholics) like them a good hamburger -- myself included. There's a reason why Friday (and other) abstinence is a work of penance. It's because meat is so good, wholesome, tasty, and gives a lot of energy and keeps you full for longer than 1 hour.

    And I'll share another tidbit: there are some muscular/stocky (no, I don't mean "fat" -- if I meant "fat" I'd say "fat") individuals that really need meat to get enough protein and calories just to maintain their body. Each ounce of muscle on your body requires X calories per hour just to exist -- even more calories per hour if those muscles are used very much. Such individuals laugh at the notion of a few vegetables or a piece of fruit for breakfast.  
    And furthermore, there are a bunch of other individuals who work hard physical jobs and thus require more calories/protein and can't be snacking on light, quickly digestable food all day long. And some fall into both groups.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Would we have eaten animals had the Fall not happened?
    « Reply #2 on: August 23, 2018, 07:18:08 PM »
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  • It’s my understanding that humans didn’t eat meat until after the Flood.  After the Fall but before the Flood, we still ate only plants.  ...The below article covers this and also the question of when animals started eating each other. 

    https://creation.com/animal-carnivory-began-at-fall

    Offline Disputaciones

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    Re: Would we have eaten animals had the Fall not happened?
    « Reply #3 on: August 23, 2018, 07:43:05 PM »
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  • At least you admit that God allowed us to eat meat. That's a good start.

    It's hard to say what life would be like without Original Sin. No suffering, having to study, aging, death -- if I could have all that, I'd gladly give up fried chicken.

    Even after Original Sin, the world was a VASTLY different place before the flood. There used to be a large water canopy over the whole earth, which blocked most UV radiation and regulated temperature. Imagine no temperature extremes at the North Pole or the equator! It allowed for larger land animals, and the higher pressure/oxygen level allowed everything to be larger, healthier, and more vigorous, including man. And with the increased protection from UV, man used to live to be 700 - 900 years. Plus less of the earth was covered with water, so travel was much easier.

    But the world today is what it is. It's very hard to get around eating meat, especially if you do any physical work.

    As for the killing of animals for meat, we're not supposed to be a bunch of squeamish SJWs about it. If we lived a more natural lifestyle, not separated from nature and reality, we would grow up around the small-scale, humane harvesting of animals and it wouldn't seem like a big deal.

    Also, Disney has perpetuated the notion that deer (for example) are just like us, only with antlers. We've been anthropomorphizing animals utilizing a power (computers, TV, movies) that didn't exist 120 years ago.

    Most conservatives (let alone Christians or Catholics) like them a good hamburger -- myself included. There's a reason why Friday (and other) abstinence is a work of penance. It's because meat is so good, wholesome, tasty, and gives a lot of energy and keeps you full for longer than 1 hour.

    And I'll share another tidbit: there are some muscular/stocky (no, I don't mean "fat" -- if I meant "fat" I'd say "fat") individuals that really need meat to get enough protein and calories just to maintain their body. Each ounce of muscle on your body requires X calories per hour just to exist -- even more calories per hour if those muscles are used very much. Such individuals laugh at the notion of a few vegetables or a piece of fruit for breakfast.  
    And furthermore, there are a bunch of other individuals who work hard physical jobs and thus require more calories/protein and can't be snacking on light, quickly digestable food all day long. And some fall into both groups.
    Yeah, I know that it was only after the Flood that meat was allowed.

    I know it's morally good to kill animals and eat them, I would never say otherwise (like vegans etc.), but you have to admit it's not something anyone would truly enjoy doing if you never had to.

    I've always thought it would be a lot better if you could at least kill the animals immediately and without making them suffer, but I know that's not the case and that the level of suffering they endure is just sickening. It's so sick I've never wanted to know the full details, but I do know that they bleed them to death, strike them on the head with hammers several times, drag them around etc.

    Are you able to kill big animals quickly and without making them suffer, if they are harvested in a small scale, like you mentioned?  

    P.S.: I know there are some vegan strongmen/bodybuilders who are very strong/muscular, but they have to eat a whole lot more to match the level of protein needed. Just saying it can still be done without meat.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Would we have eaten animals had the Fall not happened?
    « Reply #4 on: August 23, 2018, 07:55:29 PM »
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  • Before the modern age, with hundreds of channels (or millions of channels, like Youtube) there were just two categories of people:

    1. Those who butchered their own meat on a farm or worked in a slaughterhouse, and were used to it -- it didn't bother them.
    2. The blissfully ignorant -- those who didn't live on a farm OR work in a slaughterhouse.

    But here's the catch -- those in group 2 not only didn't know how meat was harvested, but they never did found out. There were no Vegan movements, no "Food, Inc." documentary, no Youtube channels, no leftist anti-meat or environmentalist propaganda, none of that.
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    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Would we have eaten animals had the Fall not happened?
    « Reply #5 on: August 23, 2018, 09:13:19 PM »
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  • Before the modern age, with hundreds of channels (or millions of channels, like Youtube) there were just two categories of people:

    1. Those who butchered their own meat on a farm or worked in a slaughterhouse, and were used to it -- it didn't bother them.
    2. The blissfully ignorant -- those who didn't live on a farm OR work in a slaughterhouse.

    But here's the catch -- those in group 2 not only didn't know how meat was harvested, but they never did found out. There were no Vegan movements, no "Food, Inc." documentary, no Youtube channels, no leftist anti-meat or environmentalist propaganda, none of that.
    Exactly, the population in #2 above were taught that spam came in a can. Back in the 1950's and 1960's, we were blissfully unaware of email called spam.
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline TheJovialInquisitor

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    Re: Would we have eaten animals had the Fall not happened?
    « Reply #6 on: August 23, 2018, 09:19:28 PM »
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  • It's really easy to humanely kill an animal.  Just stun them with something blunt and hard, like an axe handle, or even a mallet specifically made for the act of stunning like how animal farmers typically did it in the Middle Ages, then bleed them out while they're unconscious.  They aren't aware of what's happening, and won't feel any pain.  Some slaughterhouses even actually use a bolt gun to cause instant death.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Would we have eaten animals had the Fall not happened?
    « Reply #7 on: August 24, 2018, 10:25:21 AM »
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  • The subject of this thread I have lived with during my working life as a mink-farmer.

    Given nature is occupied with numerous creatures that survive living on other creatures it is absurd to think they all once lived on plant life before the Fall and after it 'evolved' the means to live off living creatures. The design of many creatures is 100% carnivore, be they ant eaters, insect eating swallows and swifts, many kinds of plankton eaters etc. and of course polar bears.
    as a child I used to think death in the wild was cruel, yet for the survival of creatures on Earth it was necessary. And that is why God said his creation of such creatures was 'good.'

    As an animal, bird and fish lover, I found these qualities were necessary to be a mink-farmer. To produce a good pelt you had to treat your animals with good lodgings, food and water, every day of their lives.
    The actual killing of the animals was of great concern to animal lovers. I have debated the keeping and killing of mink many times, even once at a university. The hall was filled with females who were anti mink farms, but upon a vote at the end I won the debate.

    My encounters with animal-rights groups, as distinct from animal-welfare organisations, was most interesting, some points I will discuss here. In debates with them I found most are non-Catholics who believe humans evolved so have no more rights than animals. When Walt Disney gave a human character to Mickey Mouse animal-rights began. Then I found out many were vegans. In debates with these I pointed out to them that veganism, portrayed as saving animals, does more harm to animals than those who eat them. I then go into my litany of harm they cause, forests with its wildlife cut down to grow veg. Insecticides that killl billions of bees, butterflies and other insects. Finally I ask who perpetrated the greatest cruelty to animals in history? It was a disease used to kill rabbits who were eating the veggies' carrots etc.. myxomatosis. Rabbits would go blind and starve to death over a period of up to three weeks. CRUELTY PERSONIFIED.
    So, having proved that eating veg is not cruelty free on to mink farming.

    My reply was that my right to farm and kill mink came from God. That said, my same religion forbids human cruelty towards animals. They counter by saying caged mink is cruel and killing them is a cruel exercise.
    Throughout the ages animals are 'housed' as is appropriate for the different kinds. Mink are caged to keep them clean and healthy. They a vicious animal and apart from mother and kits up to 6 weeks, they have to be kept apart lest they kill one another.
    There are different ways of killing mink, gas, injection of manually. For me, gas and injection took handling time, prolonging the exercise. I could catch and kill a mink in 5 seconds. Before it was aware of what was happening it was gone, no stress, no cruelty.

    Finally, my Catholic opinion of the death of animals. Since Mickey Mouse was given a human identity, most people think that animals think like humans and are as aware of the past, present and future as we are. They believe animals interpret pain as humans do, are aware of it as humans are. If this were so, God's creation would make Him the cruelest of all, creating lions that kill by a slow horrific death. I do not believe this. I believe an animal has no idea of death, no awareness. An animal can obviously feel pain, but does not understand pain like a human being understands it. The two, an animal and a human are worlds apart in there ability to REASON. They are confined to their nature. A lion does not consider itself wrong when tearing an antelope apart, an antelope does not comprehend its being torn apart. Neither have the ability to think outside their nature.





    Offline Disputaciones

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    Re: Would we have eaten animals had the Fall not happened?
    « Reply #8 on: August 24, 2018, 04:20:11 PM »
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  • How do you kill the mink in 5 seconds?

    Also, I don’t think animals feel any less pain just because they don’t “understand it” like we do.

    You start twisting a dog’s leg just enough and he’ll scream in pain and look at you differently.

    "If this were so, God's creation would make Him the cruelest of all, creating lions that kill by a slow horrific death."

    Well yeah, I've struggled with this a lot from time to time, and what I tell myself is that it's all due to Original Sin.

    St. Paul says death entered the world through Original Sin. Was that death only for humans? Because if it was all death, then animals weren't killing each other.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Would we have eaten animals had the Fall not happened?
    « Reply #9 on: August 24, 2018, 06:36:28 PM »
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  • From the Summa Theologica, I, 96, 1 ad 2:
    Quote
    In the opinion of some, those animals which now are fierce and kill others, would, in that state [of innocence], have been tame, not only in regard to man, but also in regard to other animals. But this is quite unreasonable. For the nature of animals was not changed by man's sin, as if those whose nature now it is to devour the flesh of others, would then have lived on herbs, as the lion and falcon. Nor does Bede's gloss on Genesis 1:30 say that trees and herbs were given as food to all animals and birds, but to some. Thus there would have been a natural antipathy between some animals. They would not, however, on this account have been excepted from the mastership of man: as neither at present are they for that reason excepted from the mastership of God, Whose Providence has ordained all this. Of this Providence man would have been the executor, as appears even now in regard to domestic animals, since fowls are given by men as food to the trained falcon.


    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Would we have eaten animals had the Fall not happened?
    « Reply #10 on: August 24, 2018, 07:37:46 PM »
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  • Thank you for posting the wisdom of St. Thomas.

    Until now, the only time I've actually seen this question presented and answered have been by Evangelicals.


    Offline poche

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    Re: Would we have eaten animals had the Fall not happened?
    « Reply #11 on: August 25, 2018, 02:50:19 AM »
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  • I don't care if it's "God approved" to kill animals to eat them, the way things are right now in slaughterhouses, it's just brutal and horrifying to watch, and the mere idea of killing an animal to eat it just seems bad anyway.

    So is this a punishment for original sin and something that wouldn't have happened?
    I happen to like fried chicken so it's a little hard for me to think of eating animals as some kind of punishment.

    Offline TheJovialInquisitor

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    Re: Would we have eaten animals had the Fall not happened?
    « Reply #12 on: August 25, 2018, 10:08:53 AM »
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  • How do you kill the mink in 5 seconds?
    Probably by snapping the neck.  I don't have any experience with minks, but with small animals like rabbits, that's the best option.  They usually don't even have time to process what's happening to them, much less suffer because of it.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Would we have eaten animals had the Fall not happened?
    « Reply #13 on: August 25, 2018, 01:06:08 PM »
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  • Probably by snapping the neck.  I don't have any experience with minks, but with small animals like rabbits, that's the best option.  They usually don't even have time to process what's happening to them, much less suffer because of it.

    Absolutely correct Thejovialinquisitor. The process is to catch the mink, chicken, magpie, pidgeon tightly by the neck with the left hand, put your right hand under the chin. and force the head back and forward. Death is immediate. I have killed thousands and not one avoided instant death. In seconds this can be done and as you say it is over before the crature knows what is happening. I know some readers will find this upsetting, but in a world where billions of creatures are killed in a cruel manner each year, I can assure them my mink were killed by an animal lover.

    Compare this with the time I passed by a neighbour trying to kill a chicken. I saw her place the handle of a brush over its neck on the ground and standing on each side of it. I could hear the hen swaking. I stopped the car, grabbed the hen and put it away in two seconds. I told the woman that if she ever needed to kill a hen again, just call me.

    As a mink farmer I have had experience visiting abbatoirs to get food for my mink. There is a method  of stunning before actually killing. However, there were/are sadists among the staff who have no compassion for the animals and if an animal became a problem for them they would cut off its ears or use their knives and saws on the creature. Such behaviour saddened me very much.


     

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