Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Vladimir on August 14, 2011, 06:38:20 PM
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Some members here said that working for a Protestant church is not OK, so maybe they should explain....
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Could you indicate whether I can perform classic country acoustic guitar folk music for income?
It is perfectly permissible to perform old time country folk music for income. It is to be understood, however, that there can be no sensual or immoral themes behind the lyrics used in the songs, and that the style remains that of folk music, refusing the deformations of Jazz and Rock.
It is perfectly permissible to perform old time country folk music on TV, even on TV run by a heretical organization.
It is not permissible to perform Gospel music, either on TV or in public. For this kind of music is an expression of the false protestant religion, and is consequently an active participation in the propagation of a false religion. It is consequently not permissible to perform Gospel music in a nursing home.
It is perfectly permissible to adapt the medium of "Gospel" music, that is the style, to Catholic use, and to write Catholic lyrics yourself, to go with commonly known Gospel style tunes. The popular medium could then be used to popularize and propagate the Catholic Faith. Under these conditions you could sing publicly in a nursing home, or on Christian TV, even if the producers or organizers were not aware of the fact that the music that you are singing, actually expresses Catholicism and not Protestantism. To do so would be to perform a good deed, for the salvation of souls.
It is perfectly licit, as a professional performer, to perform at secular ceremonies, including secular marriage ceremonies, that is when there is really no religious service, even if a minister of religion is present. It is certainly permissible to perform at wedding receptions. It is not permissible to actively participate in a Protestant religious ceremony by which a person would marry. This distinction may sometimes be a little difficult to make.
I do hope that these few remarks help you to decide what to do, and I pray that God will bless you and enable you and your guitar to edify as well as to please. [Answered by Fr. Peter R. Scott]
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OK
how does playing the ____, or even singing, for a Protestant church make you more protestant.
musical performance is...musical performance. It is not actively participating in religion.
Does playing Mozart make one promote Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ?
does playing Vivaldi say that you encourage priests to become laicized, etc (actually not sure if Vivaldi was laicized, but from his musical output it is hardly likely that he ever fulfilled any of his priestly duties)?
if you see someone playing Beethoven is your first impression that they are a humanist?
albeit the line can be hazy..how can say that *just* playing (and musically enjoying it) an instrument or singing, etc in a Prot. church after sunday Mass be sinful
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Vlad,
I think it has more to do with helping to facilitate the Protestant service, not so much a concern that the musician would be corrupted.
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That is the issue, I think. I don't see any problem with a Catholic musician giving a concert in a Protestant church, or participating in a secular event that happens to take place in one. (I am thinking of an Independence Day event that took place every year in the town I grew up in. They had it in a big Presbyterian Church just because of the size of the building.) However, playing music for a Protestant service is not just attending but taking a leadership role in Protestant worship. I probably take a more permissive view of such things than many here, but I can't see how it would be okay to actually lead Protest worship, ot to lead the music for such a service.
What about the reverse? Could a Protestant musician play in a Catholic service? One of the best church musicians I ever know was an Episcopalian. He played at a Catholic Church, and the music at the Mass he played for was both much better aesthetically and much more orthodox than the folk nonsense at the other Masses.
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Anglicans do tend to be good musicians.
Agree about secular concerts, etc.
The key about what you said was "leadership". A musician (even if he is the sole one) is not really a "leader" in Protestant liturgy (neither is the organist in a Catholic church - although I use a profaned understanding of the term as one who plays the organ, not the official definition as one that is in head of all the choirs, etc). Really he is just like a "hired hand".
Playing the organ - OK it makes singing easier - but in its absence...the protestant service is affected only aestetically. Maybe an example would be the man that paints the walls of prot church. If he didn't paint it...protestant will be protestant. Just without painted walls. Same -if I don't play the organ...they will sing...without the organ.
Maybe what Sigusmund and MaterDominici say can apply to a theoretical Catholic director of music at a Prot church. In that case you would be actively organizing a protestant liturgy, but even then maybe you cannot even say that that is sinful.
But for a simple musician....not really I think.
and the argument that it would give scandal is pretty ridiculous.
What does Raoul76 think?!?!
other people?
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That is the issue, I think. I don't see any problem with a Catholic musician giving a concert in a Protestant church, or participating in a secular event that happens to take place in one. (I am thinking of an Independence Day event that took place every year in the town I grew up in. They had it in a big ####ian Church just because of the size of the building.) However, playing music for a Protestant service is not just attending but taking a leadership role in Protestant worship. I probably take a more permissive view of such things than many here, but I can't see how it would be okay to actually lead Protest worship, ot to lead the music for such a service.
What about the reverse? Could a Protestant musician play in a Catholic service? One of the best church musicians I ever know was an Episcopalian. He played at a Catholic Church, and the music at the Mass he played for was both much better aesthetically and much more orthodox than the folk nonsense at the other Masses.
Matthew,
Why in the world is the name of a particular Protestant church beginning wit P blocked out, when others are not?
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Anglicans do tend to be good musicians.
Agree about secular concerts, etc.
The key about what you said was "leadership". A musician (even if he is the sole one) is not really a "leader" in Protestant liturgy (neither is the organist in a Catholic church - although I use a profaned understanding of the term as one who plays the organ, not the official definition as one that is in head of all the choirs, etc). Really he is just like a "hired hand".
Playing the organ - OK it makes singing easier - but in its absence...the protestant service is affected only aestetically. Maybe an example would be the man that paints the walls of prot church. If he didn't paint it...protestant will be protestant. Just without painted walls. Same -if I don't play the organ...they will sing...without the organ.
Maybe what Sigusmund and MaterDominici say can apply to a theoretical Catholic director of music at a Prot church. In that case you would be actively organizing a protestant liturgy, but even then maybe you cannot even say that that is sinful.
But for a simple musician....not really I think.
and the argument that it would give scandal is pretty ridiculous.
What does Raoul76 think?!?!
other people?
I know I'm not Raoul, Vlad, but I have just finished reading on this subject, not too long ago, in a book given to me by Caminus. I don't think he'd mind me quoting from it. It is a III part work by Fr. Francis J. Connell, CSSR published by The Catholic University of America, in The American Ecclesiastical Review, 1946.
First, we must consider types of co-operation:
Physical Co-operation: "Collaboration consisting of some physical act": i.e.providing articles to be used in non-Catholic religious services, allowing such a service to be held in some place under one's jurisdiction, etc. [I believe this is where your, playing with a protestant service falls] "The ruel is that formal co-operation is never allowed, material co-operation is per se forbidden, but for a sufficiently grave reason can per accidens become ilicit.
Moral Co-operation: "Co-operation is not limited to physical activity in or toward another's action." Co-operation may consist in moral concurrence- for example, advice, conselling, urgiing, which will induce or help another to act. If such advice or consulling or inducement is directed to the performance of an action that is intrinsically wrong, it ordinarily constitutes formal co-operation in the evil act, and consequently, is intrinsically wrong."
Lastly, I will quote from Connell, his examples of what should be done in the cases of Catholics joining the YMCA and what a catholic should do when they are employed doing secretarial work for non-Catholic ministers.
YMCA: "As to the moral problem of the participation of Catholics in the activites of the YMCA, it is very evident that they may not take part in any religious functions, for these are surely Protestant in Character. Neither could they attend Bible classes, religoius lectures, etc. At most it would be permissible for a Catholic to join the YMCA in order to take advantage of the athletic facilities, and perhaps some of the social or cultural functions.
Secretarial Work: A Catholic could serve as secretary to a non-Catholic clergyman... but not if her usual work was copying sermons, making arrangements for church services, etc. In this latter case, co-operation would be material; but it would be so proximate, that it is difficult to find a reason to justify it."
Lastly, from Baltimore Catechism #3:
". 1148. How do we offer God false worship?
A. We offer God false worship by rejecting the religion He has instituted and following one pleasing to ourselves, with a form of worship He has never authorized, approved or sanctioned."
Lastly, have you consulted a traditional priest on this? If not, why not?
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That is the issue, I think. I don't see any problem with a Catholic musician giving a concert in a Protestant church, or participating in a secular event that happens to take place in one. (I am thinking of an Independence Day event that took place every year in the town I grew up in. They had it in a big ####ian Church just because of the size of the building.) However, playing music for a Protestant service is not just attending but taking a leadership role in Protestant worship. I probably take a more permissive view of such things than many here, but I can't see how it would be okay to actually lead Protest worship, ot to lead the music for such a service.
What about the reverse? Could a Protestant musician play in a Catholic service? One of the best church musicians I ever know was an Episcopalian. He played at a Catholic Church, and the music at the Mass he played for was both much better aesthetically and much more orthodox than the folk nonsense at the other Masses.
Matthew,
Why in the world is the name of a particular Protestant church beginning wit P blocked out, when others are not?
Because Traditio has their own pet term for "priest" that they apply to any priest not ordained by a sedevacantist Bishop.
I don't like Traditio, and so I don't allow Traditio-speak on here.
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Anglicans do tend to be good musicians.
Agree about secular concerts, etc.
The key about what you said was "leadership". A musician (even if he is the sole one) is not really a "leader" in Protestant liturgy (neither is the organist in a Catholic church - although I use a profaned understanding of the term as one who plays the organ, not the official definition as one that is in head of all the choirs, etc). Really he is just like a "hired hand".
Playing the organ - OK it makes singing easier - but in its absence...the protestant service is affected only aestetically. Maybe an example would be the man that paints the walls of prot church. If he didn't paint it...protestant will be protestant. Just without painted walls. Same -if I don't play the organ...they will sing...without the organ.
Maybe what Sigusmund and MaterDominici say can apply to a theoretical Catholic director of music at a Prot church. In that case you would be actively organizing a protestant liturgy, but even then maybe you cannot even say that that is sinful.
But for a simple musician....not really I think.
and the argument that it would give scandal is pretty ridiculous.
What does Raoul76 think?!?!
other people?
I know I'm not Raoul, Vlad, but I have just finished reading on this subject, not too long ago, in a book given to me by Caminus. I don't think he'd mind me quoting from it. It is a III part work by Fr. Francis J. Connell, CSSR published by The Catholic University of America, in The American Ecclesiastical Review, 1946.
First, we must consider types of co-operation:
Physical Co-operation: "Collaboration consisting of some physical act": i.e.providing articles to be used in non-Catholic religious services, allowing such a service to be held in some place under one's jurisdiction, etc. [I believe this is where your, playing with a protestant service falls] "The ruel is that formal co-operation is never allowed, material co-operation is per se forbidden, but for a sufficiently grave reason can per accidens become ilicit.
Moral Co-operation: "Co-operation is not limited to physical activity in or toward another's action." Co-operation may consist in moral concurrence- for example, advice, conselling, urgiing, which will induce or help another to act. If such advice or consulling or inducement is directed to the performance of an action that is intrinsically wrong, it ordinarily constitutes formal co-operation in the evil act, and consequently, is intrinsically wrong."
Lastly, I will quote from Connell, his examples of what should be done in the cases of Catholics joining the YMCA and what a catholic should do when they are employed doing secretarial work for non-Catholic ministers.
YMCA: "As to the moral problem of the participation of Catholics in the activites of the YMCA, it is very evident that they may not take part in any religious functions, for these are surely Protestant in Character. Neither could they attend Bible classes, religoius lectures, etc. At most it would be permissible for a Catholic to join the YMCA in order to take advantage of the athletic facilities, and perhaps some of the social or cultural functions.
Secretarial Work: A Catholic could serve as secretary to a non-Catholic clergyman... but not if her usual work was copying sermons, making arrangements for church services, etc. In this latter case, co-operation would be material; but it would be so proximate, that it is difficult to find a reason to justify it."
Lastly, from Baltimore Catechism #3:
". 1148. How do we offer God false worship?
A. We offer God false worship by rejecting the religion He has instituted and following one pleasing to ourselves, with a form of worship He has never authorized, approved or sanctioned."
Lastly, have you consulted a traditional priest on this? If not, why not?
re: trad. priest. I have. Twice. And his answer for my question is no, not sinful. Which is why I am bringing this up because it seems like the members of this site are being misleading.
Thank you for the definitions. But can you explain why you think this fits my case.
What I say exactly is: is it sinful to be employed as organist at Protestant church either for or without payment. And answer was no.
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That is the issue, I think. I don't see any problem with a Catholic musician giving a concert in a Protestant church, or participating in a secular event that happens to take place in one. (I am thinking of an Independence Day event that took place every year in the town I grew up in. They had it in a big ####ian Church just because of the size of the building.) However, playing music for a Protestant service is not just attending but taking a leadership role in Protestant worship. I probably take a more permissive view of such things than many here, but I can't see how it would be okay to actually lead Protest worship, ot to lead the music for such a service.
What about the reverse? Could a Protestant musician play in a Catholic service? One of the best church musicians I ever know was an Episcopalian. He played at a Catholic Church, and the music at the Mass he played for was both much better aesthetically and much more orthodox than the folk nonsense at the other Masses.
Matthew,
Why in the world is the name of a particular Protestant church beginning wit P blocked out, when others are not?
Because Traditio has their own pet term for "priest" that they apply to any priest not ordained by a sedevacantist Bishop.
I don't like Traditio, and so I don't allow Traditio-speak on here.
Okay. :smile: I would never have guessed that was the reason.
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I once emailed the Traditio priest and told him that the term he likes to use is the exact equivalent of "priest", that the word "priest" derived etymologically from that word, and that no matter how he slices it, it is not an insulting thing to call a priest. The response I got was dismissive and did not really respond to what I said. I have not taken him seriously since.
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re: trad. priest. I have. Twice. And his answer for my question is no, not sinful. Which is why I am bringing this up because it seems like the members of this site are being misleading.
That is very surprising Vlad. Is this priest independent? I can't imagine SSPX or CMRI priest's agreeing with this position. Even the 4 independant priests I know would disapprove, and say it is not the correct thing to do.
Thank you for the definitions. But can you explain why you think this fits my case.
What I say exactly is: is it sinful to be employed as organist at Protestant church either for or without payment. And answer was no.
The reason I thought it would help you discern why it would be wrong is that if we are taught that a person can be secretary to a Protestant minister, as long as she (practically) has nothing to do with Protestant writings/teachings, why then would it be okay for someone to participate in actual worship with protestants?
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Show the article I quoted to your Priest. It is from the Angelus Questions and Answers and is also in the Book "Best of Questions and Answers" it is also on the SSPX.org website under Catholic FAQs
It is written by Father Scott former SSPX District Superior of the SSPX USA District. He currently is the Parish Priest and Principal of the SSPX School 1 hour west of me.
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The priest I asked is from the FSSP. His sermons and talks do not betray any sympathy to either Protestantism or the Novus Ordo; as I am not a sedevacantist, I trust him as a source of traditional unadulterated Catholic doctrine - that however, is besides the point. I hesitate to mention his name in such a public forum.
s2srea,
I appreciate your posts. However, I'm still not convinced that playing the organ in and of itself constitutes "participation". You mentioned being a part of a band in the past? Perhaps you know then, how detached a musician can be when practicing his art. It isn't a wonder that so many Protestants and atheists are organists at Catholic churches and never convert - they perform their jobs with the utmost perfection, but yet simultaneously with almost mechanical detachment. Many musicians can retreat into something like a state of interior contemplation when playing music.
As far as I am concerned (and as far as my employer and the congregation is concerned), I am just playing what is put in front of me. Sometimes I pay attention to the lyrics when it is a Catholic hymn or at least a hymn not inimical to the Faith. I sing along when practicing, but never at the actual service.
That said, I know that the above paragraph doesn't really defend my position.
This priest said that what I am doing is not sinful, but since he noted my continual obsessing torment over this question, he told me that if I have qualms about it, I should not do it if I feel like I am sinning - despite the fact that it is not intrinsically sinful.
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I wonder if needing the "gig" or not has any bearing on its possible sinfulness.
If the protestant members basically know that you're only there for the money, would it be better than, say, playing charitably for the sake of practice and leading them to believe that you're supportive of their worship services?
Just thinking here ... no answers.
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I have played for a certain church for no pay, but only to repay a few favors that were done for me by several members of that church. When asked by people that I know that are members of this church why I am playing, I simply reply that _____ informed me that the regular organist is injured and asked if I could fill in temporarily. I emphasis politely that I am just here to play music. I simply do it to fulfill a debt and when asked about to join in further activities, I politely decline (we are not always called to "defend" the Faith in all cases; many times to do so would be imprudent, impolite, and ineffective. It would hardly be appropriate to reply to a polite, well-intentioned invitation to join in a post-service study class with a litany of EENS quotes...something that is apparently lost to some).
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My worthless opinion is that what you're doing is OK, especially given the temporary nature of it and your honesty regarding your purpose there.
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Vladimir-
I must say you are being a bit vague about your position and what you do. Please explain- is the music you participate in, protestant? Was it written by Protestants, for Protestants? Please disregard, at this point, whether it is inimical to the faith.
If the answer is yes, you must stop playing. You are, thusly, participating, and therefore indirectly condoning, the way in which protestants worship, which is wrong.
You mentioned being a part of a band in the past? Perhaps you know then, how detached a musician can be when practicing his art. It isn't a wonder that so many Protestants and atheists are organists at Catholic churches and never convert - they perform their jobs with the utmost perfection, but yet simultaneously with almost mechanical detachment. Many musicians can retreat into something like a state of interior contemplation when playing music.
Yes, Vladimir, I know the feeling that one gets when involved with music. But this is exactly why we must not worship with modern types of music which protestants use. Prayer, and worship, are not from the carnal. Prayer is a higher part of man that is his 'feelings'. We should worship our Lord when we have the joys of belief, and when we feel dry. As someone had mentioned here before, the Protestant way of worshiping is "dummied down"; it is. If these Protestants, or Catholics even, are unable to worship our lord because the church rejects they way THEY want to worship, not considering how God wants to be worship, so be it. I'm sorry I'm not eloquent with words, and hope I'm getting my point across.
There's a reason we use Gregorian Chant in the Roman Church. Trust me, it would not have been hard to bring in some other instruments for the liturgy. I'm not sure what type of music you're playing at this protestant church, but I can not see how you can justify it.
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I don't think playing the organ at a Protestant church is ok. Basically by doing that you are participating in their heretical forms of worship. Even in a depression such as this, surely you can find a better paying job than that.
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This is true. And if I may Vladimir, if you owed your friend a favor, you wouldn't have to turn into the Diamond Bro's and throw out EENS quotes at him to reject his request. There are ways of being tactful, yet defending our faith, which we are called to do at all times friend.
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This is exactly what I do:
early morning, attend FSSP low mass.
late morning drive to protestant church - play the organ (a few hymns before the service, 3 hymns during, and an improvised interlude). This is paid job.
afternoon - temporarily filling in for injured organist at another church. 3 hymns.
Please explain- is the music you participate in, protestant? Was it written by Protestants, for Protestants? Please disregard, at this point, whether it is inimical to the faith.
If the answer is yes, you must stop playing. You are, thusly, participating, and therefore indirectly condoning, the way in which protestants worship, which is wrong.
Depends. Some of the hymns are Catholic (i.e., Holy God we praise Thy Name, All Creatures of our God & King) - some are written by Protestants but are used by Catholic churches, others are just plain American "revivalist" songs that hardly pass for music.
Does this reasoning imply that we are not to play Mozart, or Bach, or Handel, or ____, etc? Hard to justify when they are playing Beethoven in SSPX seminary.
Yes, Vladimir, I know the feeling that one gets when involved with music. But this is exactly why we must not worship with modern types of music which protestants use. Prayer, and worship, are not from the carnal. Prayer is a higher part of man that is his 'feelings'. We should worship our Lord when we have the joys of belief, and when we feel dry. As someone had mentioned here before, the Protestant way of worshiping is "dummied down"; it is. If these Protestants, or Catholics even, are unable to worship our lord because the church rejects they way THEY want to worship, not considering how God wants to be worship, so be it. I'm sorry I'm not eloquent with words, and hope I'm getting my point across.
I'm not worshiping with Protestants or using their "Protestant music" to worship. By the way what is meant by that anyhow, since many hymn tunes are used in Catholic churches by are secular or Protestant in origin. Among these, is the beautiful Holy Week hymn O Sacred Head now Wounded, which is of 16th century secular origin.
There's a reason we use Gregorian Chant in the Roman Church. Trust me, it would not have been hard to bring in some other instruments for the liturgy. I'm not sure what type of music you're playing at this protestant church, but I can not see how you can justify it.
Like i've said: its a job!
re: other instruments. Totally off point, but a guitar is far more preferable than a piano - for Mass at least. Even the organ can become distracting depending on what music is played.
I don't think playing the organ at a Protestant church is ok. Basically by doing that you are participating in their heretical forms of worship. Even in a depression such as this, surely you can find a better paying job than that.
Please show how is participating in heresy. I can't catch heresy from just sitting in a Protestant church.
Plus some organist get $200 *cash* for 1 hr. I don't get paid nearly that much, but anywhere from $25 to $50 in cash (no taxes) for 1 hr and practically no physical exertion...is hard to find elsewhere.
This is true. And if I may Vladimir, if you owed your friend a favor, you wouldn't have to turn into the Diamond Bro's and throw out EENS quotes at him to reject his request. There are ways of being tactful, yet defending our faith, which we are called to do at all times friend.
True but there are degrees to this. What type of defense you give is depend on what station you are in.
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Vladimir may have put me on ignore, as I see I now have my 2nd (I don't care), so I don't know if he will be able to see my post or not (although I obviously can't say for sure he was the one who ignored me). But I will respond to him anyway.
A Catholic playing music for a Protestant church is indeed sinful. You are playing the music they need for their heretical services. It would be like me going to a local Baptist (anti-Catholic) church, playing the organ during their services, and saying "Oh, but I'm not Protestant and therefore am not participating in their worship". Even if you aren't Protestant, you are still participating in their heretical form of worship. Just like JPII at Assisi. Does the fact that he was not a Buddhist mean that he did not participate in false worship when he prayed with Buddhists and put a statue of Buddha on the altar? Of course it doesn't, he participated in false worship by assisting! Vladmir's situation is different of course, but by playing the organ at a Protestant service you are assisting them in their worship and that is a sin.
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It would be pointless to create a thread asking for opinions, only to ignore the users that make their's known.
You are playing the music they need for their heretical services.
Now, is that really a fair statement to make? What would happen if there was no organist at a SSPX chapel? Choirs and organists are luxuries. Especially organists - if I didn't play, someone else would play the piano or maybe they could find another organist. My presence or absence is not affecting their service in any way except aesthetically.
It would be like me going to a local Baptist (anti-Catholic) church, playing the organ during their services, and saying "Oh, but I'm not Protestant and therefore am not participating in their worship".
You wouldn't be! How does being inside a Protestant church on Sunday make me anymore Protestant? How would it make you? When asked why I don't participate in their sliced bread eating and grape juice drinking - I say plainly, I'm a Catholic. I'm not a member of this church. I'm just here to play the organ. No one questions it. This is not the 17th century. There aren't any extra-musical requirements to be an organist for most churches. Musicians know that. The people in the congregation know that.
Even if you aren't Protestant, you are still participating in their heretical form of worship.
HOW?
One minute I'm the reserved organist that hides behind the organ for the entire service only to slip out unnoticed immediately after receiving pay and the next you are comparing me to the pope who did _______ in front of the entire world? Assisting would be like being a Protestant altar boy or doing their readings, or "testifying", etc. Sitting passively behind an organ console is not.
You seem to have a serious paranoia of "scandal". I've been to a Buddhist funeral before. Since I didn't have a big sign on my shirt saying "I'm a Catholic passively attending this blasphemous ritual" is that scandal for someone to see me and assume that I'm a Buddhist?
I'm not trying to pick fights. But as previously stated, the information given by some members regarding this topic may be incorrect in some circuмstances and may be the cause of scruples for readers.
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Is a drummer boy participating in the battle or not?
I'm very sympathetic with your position vladimir, it's just it does seem like accompanying a protestant service is collaborating with their worship.
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I'm getting Hobble's input.
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I actually see 3 issues. 1. You're making money and performing a servile service on the Lord's Day. 2. You are inside a 'church' that displeases God on the Lord's Day. 3. You are assisting them in their crime of Cain on the Lord's Day.
But you seem to have made up your mind.
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I'm getting Hobble's input.
Oh there you go again, bringing in that Hobble-whatever guy! :wink:
I shall submit a response after I consult my library regarding the matters discussed in this thread. A serious inquiry was made, and I find it improper for me to post an informal reply when I have the resources to cite authors and texts in order to formulate a more serious response.
Perhaps I shall take some theological tomes with me at work to read during my lunch break and take notes.
Moral theology and casuistry are such fun! :reading:
Well at least more fun than grouting...
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Now, is that really a fair statement to make? What would happen if there was no organist at a SSPX chapel? Choirs and organists are luxuries. Especially organists - if I didn't play, someone else would play the piano or maybe they could find another organist. My presence or absence is not affecting their service in any way except aesthetically.
There is some error in your reasoning there. "If I didn't play, someone else would". Well, let them. Let that church hire a Protestant to play the organ. But to do it and say someone else would if it wasn't you does not support your case.
You wouldn't be! How does being inside a Protestant church on Sunday make me anymore Protestant? How would it make you? When asked why I don't participate in their sliced bread eating and grape juice drinking - I say plainly, I'm a Catholic. I'm not a member of this church. I'm just here to play the organ. No one questions it. This is not the 17th century. There aren't any extra-musical requirements to be an organist for most churches. Musicians know that. The people in the congregation know that.
I never said it makes you Protestant, but you're supplying them the music they need to sing their heretical songs at their heretical services. Tele and LP have already agreed with me that you're participating in heretical worship even without literally being a Protestant. Just because you aren't one does not mean you cannot in-directly participate in it by playing the organ.
One minute I'm the reserved organist that hides behind the organ for the entire service only to slip out unnoticed immediately after receiving pay and the next you are comparing me to the pope who did _______ in front of the entire world? Assisting would be like being a Protestant altar boy or doing their readings, or "testifying", etc. Sitting passively behind an organ console is not.
You seem to have a serious paranoia of "scandal". I've been to a Buddhist funeral before. Since I didn't have a big sign on my shirt saying "I'm a Catholic passively attending this blasphemous ritual" is that scandal for someone to see me and assume that I'm a Buddhist?
I'm not trying to pick fights. But as previously stated, the information given by some members regarding this topic may be incorrect in some circuмstances and may be the cause of scruples for readers.
I didn't compare you to JPII, I used him as an example of participating in false worship even without literally believing in what they believe. No, what I say is not the cause of scruples, you need to grasp a clear understanding of what that is. If you have musical talents with the organ, then great. But why not use it to assist Catholics rather than heretics who reject the Church of Christ?
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This is exactly what I do:
early morning, attend FSSP low mass.
late morning drive to protestant church - play the organ (a few hymns before the service, 3 hymns during, and an improvised interlude). This is paid job.
afternoon - temporarily filling in for injured organist at another church. 3 hymns.
There are other jobs you can do for pay, and by doing this job you're obviously attending a Protestant service. You did say yourself that you play hymns during their service. This wouldn't be possible if you weren't attending their service, even if you don't concede to any of their heresies. I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that doing so is wrong.
Depends. Some of the hymns are Catholic (i.e., Holy God we praise Thy Name, All Creatures of our God & King) - some are written by Protestants but are used by Catholic churches, others are just plain American "revivalist" songs that hardly pass for music.
Even if there are Catholic hymns being sung, you're still attending a Protestant service and contributing to the propagation and maintenance of a false religion by doing so.
Does this reasoning imply that we are not to play Mozart, or Bach, or Handel, or ____, etc? Hard to justify when they are playing Beethoven in SSPX seminary.
The difference between attending a Protestant service that has everything to do with Protestantism and listening to a musician play a piece that may or may not even have anything to do with religion whatsoever is like the difference between night and day.
I'm not worshiping with Protestants or using their "Protestant music" to worship.
But you are attending a Protestant service, which, as I've intimated before, is completely unacceptable. You have no way to get around this.
By the way what is meant by that anyhow, since many hymn tunes are used in Catholic churches by are secular or Protestant in origin. Among these, is the beautiful Holy Week hymn O Sacred Head now Wounded, which is of 16th century secular origin.
As I've said before, there is no excuse.
Like i've said: its a job!
There's more than 1 job out there that doesn't involve attending the worship services of heretics.
Please show how is participating in heresy. I can't catch heresy from just sitting in a Protestant church.
Why do you even need an example? Is the mere fact that you're contributing to the worship service of heretics not enough? You may not be "catching heresy" by being there but you certainly are giving your tacit approval of it by choosing to sit there and contributing to their service by playing music for them.
Plus some organist get $200 *cash* for 1 hr. I don't get paid nearly that much, but anywhere from $25 to $50 in cash (no taxes) for 1 hr and practically no physical exertion...is hard to find elsewhere.
Even if you were paid $1 million per second of your time, it is inexcusable for you to attend the worship services of heretics or to contribute to it in any way.
True but there are degrees to this. What type of defense you give is depend on what station you are in.
You are not in a situation to give any valid defense of your actions whatsoever, and you have not shown yourself to be in such a situation.
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Is a drummer boy participating in the battle or not?
I'm very sympathetic with your position vladimir, it's just it does seem like accompanying a protestant service is collaborating with their worship.
He IS collaborating with their worship service by doing this and he has no way to get around this without being outrageously dishonest. If he were to deny that he is contributing to their worship service, it would be like me saying I'm not contributing to the making of dinner for my family by seasoning the meat that they're going to eat.
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This priest said that what I am doing is not sinful, but since he noted my continual obsessing torment over this question, he told me that if I have qualms about it, I should not do it if I feel like I am sinning - despite the fact that it is not intrinsically sinful.
You should follow your priest's advice, rather than relying on the internet. While many people have good intentions, their "experience" in moral theology often consists of nothing more than a good search engine, or a Catholic book or two. Soliciting advice in the absence of a good traditional priest is one thing, but it is not necessary when you have already spoken to one.
If you are doing this job for necessary income, pray to God to help you find another one that stresses you less. Otherwise, quit. Something doesn't have to be sinful in order for it to be "not right" for you.
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Soliciting advice in the absence of a good traditional priest is one thing,
I didn't want to bring this up, but being that the priest he asked was part of the pro-Vatican II FSSP, this is definitely a red flag.
but it is not necessary when you have already spoken to one.
Hmm... I wonder then why his conscience urged him to do so... Why is he then tormented? :scratchchin:
Something doesn't have to be sinful in order for it to be "not right" for you.
Careful, you might be one of those people you just mentioned giving advice who is counting on "their "experience" in moral theology often consists of nothing more than a good search engine, or a Catholic book or two."
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Do you really need a priest to tell you that participating in the worship services of heretics is wrong? I'm actually amazed right now.
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This priest said that what I am doing is not sinful, but since he noted my continual obsessing torment over this question, he told me that if I have qualms about it, I should not do it if I feel like I am sinning - despite the fact that it is not intrinsically sinful.
You should follow your priest's advice, rather than relying on the internet. While many people have good intentions, their "experience" in moral theology often consists of nothing more than a good search engine, or a Catholic book or two. Soliciting advice in the absence of a good traditional priest is one thing, but it is not necessary when you have already spoken to one.
If you are doing this job for necessary income, pray to God to help you find another one that stresses you less. Otherwise, quit. Something doesn't have to be sinful in order for it to be "not right" for you.
Sometimes people on the internet actually have more knowledge than a priest.
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Sometimes people on the internet actually have more knowledge than a priest.
Sometimes a priest may be in error because of ignorance, but most priests who would approve of indifferentist behavior would just be following the lead of their hierarchy and ostensible Pope in ignoring the traditions of moral theology.
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Did SouthernBelle's advice - a perfectly Catholic piece of advice and one that shows great spiritual maturity at that - really get 3 "thumbs down" by this crowd of rabid self-proclaimed traditionalists?
You are not in a situation to give any valid defense of your actions whatsoever, and you have not shown yourself to be in such a situation.
Um...ok, Daegus, master of the interior life. Am I supposed to humble myself before the opinion of a self-admitted hormonal teenager that found tradition just a few months ago (and admittedly, has had but limited conversation with traditional Catholics in real life; also admittedly goes to a FSSP parish and therefore cannot criticise me for doing the same) and go back to my priest and tell him that I respect the judgements of an obscure forum-poster above those of his?
Do you really need a priest to tell you that participating in the worship services of heretics is wrong? I'm actually amazed right now.
Do you really need someone to tell you that the whole thread is about how playing the organ doesn't constitute participation? I've never said that active participation is OK. Neither has my priest.
I didn't want to bring this up, but being that the priest he asked was part of the pro-Vatican II FSSP, this is definitely a red flag.
Who told you that the FSSP is pro-Vatican II? Whatever that means anyhow. And haven't I already said that this priest is neither pro-novus ordo (duh - why would be enter the FSSP if he was) or pro-Protestant?
Sometimes people on the internet actually have more knowledge than a priest.
Did you really just say that? You are willing to trust an anonymous source on the Internet rather than the council of a priest that has spent 7 years in the seminary? Your post reeks of the hellish arrogance that some people get after sitting behind their monitors reading about "the Crisis in the church" and fancy themselves learned in subjects that were formerely pursued only by holy priests and religious. It would harldy be surprising if you were among those new to tradition that has almost no communication with real (not online) traditional Catholics and lacks the social ability to even associate with them apart from behind the veil of the Internet- where you are free to shoot off your mouth without consequence.
Sometimes a priest may be in error because of ignorance, but most priests who would approve of indifferentist behavior would just be following the lead of their hierarchy and ostensible Pope in ignoring the traditions of moral theology.
While there is verity in this, in this particular case - it is not.
You should follow your priest's advice, rather than relying on the internet. While many people have good intentions, their "experience" in moral theology often consists of nothing more than a good search engine, or a Catholic book or two. Soliciting advice in the absence of a good traditional priest is one thing, but it is not necessary when you have already spoken to one.
If you are doing this job for necessary income, pray to God to help you find another one that stresses you less. Otherwise, quit. Something doesn't have to be sinful in order for it to be "not right" for you.
Thank you. Apparently some of the posters here assume that I take some take joy in this occupation and am not forced into it by factors that will remain undisclosed. At any rate, I ultimately will cease any current functions I have in the said church(es) by late next year -perhaps even earlier. Upon which I hope to wash my hands of the whole matter and find employment at a traditional Catholic chapel; it is no small disappointment for a musician to be unable to employ his talent for the glory of God. I would play for a tradtitional church even if no pay was offered.
And if someone truly believes me wrong - than pray for my soul and that of the priest that I have mentioend.
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Um...ok, Daegus, master of the interior life. Am I supposed to humble myself before the opinion of a self-admitted hormonal teenager that found tradition just a few months ago (and admittedly, has had but limited conversation with traditional Catholics in real life; also admittedly goes to a FSSP parish and therefore cannot criticise me for doing the same) and go back to my priest and tell him that I respect the judgements of an obscure forum-poster above those of his?
Obviously you cannot handle the truth and so you retaliate rather childishly. How embarrassing and unbecoming of you to attack me in such a pathetic way. Do you think what you've presented against me constitutes a valid argument in any way? I have presented you with facts and in return you bring your histrionics to the table. At the same time, you have the temerity to bring up that I am a "hormonal teenager" when you are just the same. Will you consider what I have told you or will you embrace utter apostasy and persist in serving a Protestant worship service? Even if you attack me, you cannot attack God. That is who you must take up the issue with, not I. It is not me that you are vexed with. It is God.
Furthermore I never criticized you for going to an FSSP parish, so I'm not sure what that even has to do with anything.
Do you really need a priest to tell you that participating in the worship services of heretics is wrong? I'm actually amazed right now.
Do you really need someone to tell you that the whole thread is about how playing the organ doesn't constitute participation? I've never said that active participation is OK. Neither has my priest.
Of course you haven't said it. You don't think that your participation in a Protestant worship service is actually a sin.
"A sin for thee but not me" ~ Is this the mark of a Pharisee?
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I'm not going to pretend that I don't have problems and even I have to admit that I am wrong when I am wrong, Vladimir. I know that I am not wrong here. Why do you need a priest to tell you that a fish is a fish?; That a horse is a horse?; That a shoe is a shoe?
I know that you're being dishonest, and I know that you can do better than that. Is it really worth it to provide possible scandal for Catholics who know that you do what you do? The money is not worth it. How will you render an account unto God for this? Think about this. I am not saying what I say because I want to attack you. I say what I say because I care.
You may not think that way now, but you'll thank me later. The people on this website have helped me a great deal and have made me consider my wrongs and my rights more deeply than I normally would. Please consider the outcries of at least 1 person here. Surely you didn't start this thread because you thought what you were doing was perfectly fine, did you?
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Did SouthernBelle's advice - a perfectly Catholic piece of advice and one that shows great spiritual maturity at that - really get 3 "thumbs down" by this crowd of rabid self-proclaimed traditionalists?
So someone who says it's ok to attend a heretical service gave a "perfectly Catholic piece of advice" yet the 4 people who tell you you're wrong are "rabid self-proclaimed Traditionalists"? You obviouly don't know what the meaning of Traditional is.
Um...ok, Daegus, master of the interior life. Am I supposed to humble myself before the opinion of a self-admitted hormonal teenager that found tradition just a few months ago (and admittedly, has had but limited conversation with traditional Catholics in real life; also admittedly goes to a FSSP parish and therefore cannot criticise me for doing the same) and go back to my priest and tell him that I respect the judgements of an obscure forum-poster above those of his?
This is one of the lowest, most pathetic statements I have ever read on this forum. Your attack against Daegus is both un-charitable and un-Christian. You can get banned for cutting down people like that, so I'd be careful if I were you. Just because Daegus is fairly new to Tradition does not mean his views cannot be taken seriously. What about people who are only Catholic for minutes following a deathbed conversion? Daegus is 17, he's doing great for his age. You owe him an apology.
Do you really need someone to tell you that the whole thread is about how playing the organ doesn't constitute participation? I've never said that active participation is OK. Neither has my priest.
It IS participation. 4 people have tried to tell you that. You can either listen to the people here who are only trying to help you because we care about your soul, or you can keep your head in the sand. The choice is yours.
Who told you that the FSSP is pro-Vatican II? Whatever that means anyhow. And haven't I already said that this priest is neither pro-novus ordo (duh - why would be enter the FSSP if he was) or pro-Protestant?
The FSSP doesn't speak out against the NO or anything going on in the Vatican because they're afraid they'll "get in trouble". They fear the wrath of man more than the wrath of God. You should ask an SSPX priest.
Did you really just say that? You are willing to trust an anonymous source on the Internet rather than the council of a priest that has spent 7 years in the seminary? Your post reeks of the hellish arrogance that some people get after sitting behind their monitors reading about "the Crisis in the church" and fancy themselves learned in subjects that were formerely pursued only by holy priests and religious. It would harldy be surprising if you were among those new to tradition that has almost no communication with real (not online) traditional Catholics and lacks the social ability to even associate with them apart from behind the veil of the Internet- where you are free to shoot off your mouth without consequence.
I've been a Traditional Catholic since Januray 2010. That's great considering the spiritually lazy Novus Ordite I was before. I think it's no secret that you're not a Trad, more of a neo-Trad. Half of my family is Protestant (including my father) and I can't express to you enough how dangerous it can be to hang out with them and play the organ for them of Sundays. But you don't seem to care. I think you only started this thread to see how many people agreed with you and really didn't give a flip who thought you should change jobs.
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Okay this thread is getting a little too heated... lets everyone cool down! Here, some pious pick up lines from a previous thread. If you can guess who wrote this, you've been here too long lol:
Some time ago, someone came to me with the question of how to ask his betrothed for a modest kiss in such a manner as to impress her, to which I responded,
Quote:
Say to her, "Your lips are as sweet rubrics to which I am bound sub gravi to adhere!"
Ahhh.. all better.
Vladimir, our brother, please pray on this issue. You are no neo-Trad, I think you're good willed, and thats why you've come here and asked the question you did. But sometimes, we ask people the things we want them to tell us. And when our friends tell us those things which are burdensome, we flaw them and what is said, instead of neutrally taking into account what is presented to us. This is a very sound forum, with some very honest, and good-willed people. I will say a prayer for you.
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Okay this thread is getting a little too heated... lets everyone cool down! Here, some pious pick up lines from a previous thread. If you can guess who wrote this, you've been here too long lol:
Some time ago, someone came to me with the question of how to ask his betrothed for a modest kiss in such a manner as to impress her, to which I responded,
Quote:
Say to her, "Your lips are as sweet rubrics to which I am bound sub gravi to adhere!"
Ahhh.. all better.
Vladimir, our brother, please pray on this issue. You are no neo-Trad, I think you're good willed, and thats why you've come here and asked the question you did. But sometimes, we ask people the things we want them to tell us. And when our friends tell us those things which are burdensome, we flaw them and what is said, instead of neutrally taking into account what is presented to us. This is a very sound forum, with some very honest, and good-willed people. I will say a prayer for you.
Hobble?
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"And bingo was his name-o"
Whose that?
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Another forum member wrote:
While many people have good intentions, their "experience" in moral theology often consists of nothing more than a good search engine, or a Catholic book or two.
This is quite true, and I must candidly admit that I fit this description to a great extent. This is good to remember because it is a humbling reminder of our limited capacities as layfolk. But I shall go further beyond what this poster wrote and state that the chief reason why a learned and holy Priest of good repute is to be sought for counsel in preference to any layman, personal sanctity and erudition notwithstanding, is because the former is endowed with the graces of state that have his Sacred Orders as their origin and whereby he may direct efficaciously and effectively the individual Catholic who has recourse to his judgment with the appropriate dispositions (humility, sincerity, docility, etc.); the salvation of souls being the chief end of the sacred Priesthood together with the glory of God, and this ultimately constitutes the only reason why epikea would be invoked in the seeking and attaining to Holy Orders on the part of traditionalist clerics without the consent of the Roman Pontiff.
My views on the matter in question were sought, and by charity I am obliged to assent to the request. The following are merely my personal perspectives and opinions, which do not of themselves oblige consciences in any way, since I have no competence or authority to do so, as stated above.
Having carefully pondered upon the matter, and having consulted various texts, I believe the disputation upon the initial inquiry that began this thread may be reduced to the following questions: the first being, "May Catholics co-operate in non-Catholic functions?" and the second, subordinate to and elucidating upon the first question, being, "What exactly constitutes co-operation?"
The principles pertaining to the second question are explained by Rev. Fr. Davis in his Moral and Pastoral Theology (vol. I., treatise V., ch. viii., secs. 1 and 2 pp. 341-343; London and New York: Sheed and Ward, 1958). Instead of summarizing these principles, I have scanned and attached these pages.
Rev. Fr. Davis also explains the principles pertaining to the first and chief question, regarding co-operation in non-Catholic functions (op. cit., vol. I., treatise V., ch. ix., p. 282-290). These pages are also attached.
Directly pertaining to the predicament in question, Rev. Father Davis wrote:
It is wrong to play the organ in a non-Catholic church as a help to the religious service (S.O., July 8, 1889), or to be a member of the choir during services, but it is not wrong, scandal apart, to take part in musical festivals in such places. A Catholic organist might continue in his post so long as he was in grave necessity, apart from serious scandal.
I am incline to agree with Rev. Father Davis in his assessment of organ playing in a non-Catholic service. The only excusing factors, which would have to exist simultaneously, are:
1) A very grave necessity (in the particular predicament in question, it is of a financial nature I suppose), and
2) The absence of proximate occasion of sins against the faith, either (a) by exposing oneself foolhardily to the heretical teachings when one is not well-established in the profession and practice of the Catholic faith; or (b) by scandalizing fellow Catholics and the non-Catholics that partake in that service (e.g., giving the impression that it is alright for a traditional Catholic to co-operate actively in a non-Catholic religious function, in light of the propagation of the false ecuмenism of "Vatican II," or giving the impression that the public cult of non-Catholics is to be tolerated and, consequently, their errors are also to be tolerated).
It is the second factor that merits exceedingly careful consideration, in light of the pertinent disciplinary norms of the Code of Canon Law, promulgated by Pope Benedict XV in the Apostolic Constitution Providentissima Mater (27 May 1917; A.A.S., vol. IX, pars II [1917]).
Rev. Frs. John A. Abbo and Jerome D. Hannan, in expounding upon Canon 1258 in their monumental work The Sacred Canons: A Concise Presentation of the Current Disciplinary Norms of the Church (vol. II, pp. 512-514; St. Louis, MO: B. Herder Book Co., 1957), explicitly state that the
Particular acts of active participation that are forbidden are indicated herewith.
[...]
e) It is not allowed a Catholic to play the organ or sing in connection with the religious services of non-Catholics.
Regarding the passive or merely material presence of a Catholic in a non-Catholic religious function, Rev. Frs. Abbo and Hannan state that this may be tolerated for a serious reason, "provided there is involved no danger of perversion or scandal." Whensoever there is doubt, the local ordinary would be the one to assess the seriousness of the reason in order to either permit or prohibit this passive or material presence. However, it is clearly stated:
It is clear that only a serious reason justifies even passive presence. This kind of presence excludes any participation in the services and forbids praying, singing, the carrying of candles, in company with the non-Catholic participants.
To conclude, dear Vladimir, it is my private opinion, based on the principles taught by the authors above-mentioned, that you ought to seek another sort of employment as soon as possible, since the reactions that have been expressed in response to your query clearly show that there is danger of scandal by playing the organ in a Protestant service, especially because of the present day errors concomitant with the false ecuмenism of "Vatican II." Whatever contractual obligations you have incurred that entail your participation as an organist in these functions are null and void because you cannot agree and you cannot be bound to something that would involve the violation of natural and divine positive law, such as the prohibition of active participation in non-Catholic religious functions. If there is a question of restitution for a contractual obligation or debt, you must seek to satisfy this obligation in another manner.
Again, this is merely my perspective, and you must again seek the counsel of your Father Confessor in light of the above-mentioned principles. The pages cited above are attached, so that you and the other forum members may see for yourselves what these authors say, and not rely on my faulty judgment and limited effability.
Please be assured of my prayers. :pray:
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Interesting, as always with your posts, Hobble.
I am surprised to read that imposing ashes on non-Catholics was forbidden by traditional practice. I sow it done in more than one church as a kid before the council. and I recall Protestants asking a priest if they could receive the ashes and being told they could.
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Vlad- are you able to post your thoughts on the post and articles posted by Hobble? I'm very interested. I would love to continue this discourse.
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Did SouthernBelle's advice - a perfectly Catholic piece of advice and one that shows great spiritual maturity at that - really get 3 "thumbs down" by this crowd of rabid self-proclaimed traditionalists?
So someone who says it's ok to attend a heretical service gave a "perfectly Catholic piece of advice" yet the 4 people who tell you you're wrong are "rabid self-proclaimed Traditionalists"? You obviouly don't know what the meaning of Traditional is.
SpiritusSanctus, please do not twist my words into something that I never said or even implied. Thank you.
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Did SouthernBelle's advice - a perfectly Catholic piece of advice and one that shows great spiritual maturity at that - really get 3 "thumbs down" by this crowd of rabid self-proclaimed traditionalists?
So someone who says it's ok to attend a heretical service gave a "perfectly Catholic piece of advice" yet the 4 people who tell you you're wrong are "rabid self-proclaimed Traditionalists"? You obviouly don't know what the meaning of Traditional is.
SpiritusSanctus, please do not twist my words into something that I never said or even implied. Thank you.
I didn't, I was responding to Vladimir.
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Did SouthernBelle's advice - a perfectly Catholic piece of advice and one that shows great spiritual maturity at that - really get 3 "thumbs down" by this crowd of rabid self-proclaimed traditionalists?
So someone who says it's ok to attend a heretical service gave a "perfectly Catholic piece of advice" yet the 4 people who tell you you're wrong are "rabid self-proclaimed Traditionalists"? You obviouly don't know what the meaning of Traditional is.
SpiritusSanctus, please do not twist my words into something that I never said or even implied. Thank you.
I didn't, I was responding to Vladimir.
I have been away from the computer for a while. My apologies for misunderstanding who you were referencing. Pax.
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Hobbledehoy said:
I am inclined to agree with Rev. Father Davis in his assessment of organ playing in a non-Catholic service. The only excusing factors, which would have to exist simultaneously, are:
1) A very grave necessity (in the particular predicament in question, it is of a financial nature I suppose), and
2) The absence of proximate occasion of sins against the faith, either (a) by exposing oneself foolhardily to the heretical teachings when one is not well-established in the profession and practice of the Catholic faith; or (b) by scandalizing fellow Catholics and the non-Catholics that partake in that service (e.g., giving the impression that it is alright for a traditional Catholic to co-operate actively in a non-Catholic religious function, in light of the propagation of the false ecuмenism of "Vatican II," or giving the impression that the public cult of non-Catholics is to be tolerated and, consequently, their errors are also to be tolerated).
So how does a Catholic organist indicate to the assembled "faithful" at a Protestant service that he is not one of them and that he doesn't approve of their gathering, which he is speeding along with his dazzling Bach riffs? Does he wear a T-shirt of an unmistakably Catholic nature? Or is he supposed to wriggle in his seat uncomfortably during the sermon and roll his eyes, to let everyone know he's against it? It all feels uncomfortably like communicatio in sacris to me.
Sorry for the formatting, it's Matthew's fault, lol. I redid it with the correct tags and everything but it's still like this.
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There is a college near L.A. that is Prot in nature, and students are forced to go to services there. Someone at CMRI was going to this college. I don't think he was told not to go, but that may be because the CMRI priest knew he wouldn't listen. Who knows. Anyway, I asked him why he would pick that college out of all colleges, which to me was perverse.
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So how does a Catholic organist indicate to the assembled "faithful" at a Protestant service that he is not one of them and that he doesn't approve of their gathering, which he is speeding along with his dazzling Bach riffs? Does he wear a T-shirt of an unmistakably Catholic nature? Or is he supposed to wriggle in his seat uncomfortably during the sermon and roll his eyes, to let everyone know he's against it? It all feels uncomfortably like communicatio in sacris to me.
BUAHAHHAA, Bach riffs. Agreed, agreed, AGREED!
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There is a college near L.A. that is Prot in nature, and students are forced to go to services there. Someone at CMRI was going to this college. I don't think he was told not to go, but that may be because the CMRI priest knew he wouldn't listen. Who knows. Anyway, I asked him why he would pick that college out of all colleges, which to me was perverse.
APU? Pepperdine? Just curious... I had a friend who went to APU (Azusa Pacific) and he came out and acted as if his brain had been wrapped in a lemon soaked rag, slammed on an anvil a hundred times, jumped on by a large woman, and put back in pretending to be delicately. They are DANGEROUS schools. Some of the things he says are just wacko- you can't even debate with him because he makes crap ups as he goes along. Of course he denies the virgin birth, the miracles of Christ, His ressurection, etc. Its so so sad. I guess I can only pray for him?
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So how does a Catholic organist indicate to the assembled "faithful" at a Protestant service that he is not one of them and that he doesn't approve of their gathering, which he is speeding along with his dazzling Bach riffs? Does he wear a T-shirt of an unmistakably Catholic nature? Or is he supposed to wriggle in his seat uncomfortably during the sermon and roll his eyes, to let everyone know he's against it? It all feels uncomfortably like communicatio in sacris to me.
Sorry for the formatting, it's Matthew's fault, lol. I redid it with the correct tags and everything but it's still like this.
Quite simply. He could refuse to take their "communion" when explicitly invited to partake of it in front of the entire church.
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So how does a Catholic organist indicate to the assembled "faithful" at a Protestant service that he is not one of them and that he doesn't approve of their gathering, which he is speeding along with his dazzling Bach riffs? Does he wear a T-shirt of an unmistakably Catholic nature? Or is he supposed to wriggle in his seat uncomfortably during the sermon and roll his eyes, to let everyone know he's against it? It all feels uncomfortably like communicatio in sacris to me.
Sorry for the formatting, it's Matthew's fault, lol. I redid it with the correct tags and everything but it's still like this.
Quite simply. He could refuse to take their "communion" when explicitly invited to partake of it in front of the entire church.
Playing music for them at their heretical services is WRONG. I don't know how to make it much more clear than that.
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Looking back on this thread, many of my comments towards other members of this forum who offered sound advice seem rash, impatient, insincere, confrontational, uncharitable, and otherwise immature. I apologize. Please understand that at the time I was in a difficult situation that I did not want to be in but was forced into rather obligingly by various factors that were out of my control.
Now, before anyone has a chance to jump up and down saying "I told you so!", I still hold that this issue is more complicated and delicate than some here seem to believe, and I certainly do not think that it is an issue upon which a position can be clearly defined in one sentence.
As for myself, I did not continue work at either Protestant location very long after this thread was created, and I do not plan to take up any such work in the foreseeable future. However, I am in an entirely different living situation now and thankfully I don't think that working in a Protestant church is a realistic or viable option of possible employment.
As an aside, an aspiring traditional Catholic musician can do nothing but despair at the current job market. Frankly, it seems that many traditional Catholics in the pews are content to pay lip service to the need for beautiful art, music, etc (if even that), but when it comes down to money or even just a little effort, no one is willing to budge. I suppose if people don't even want to make an effort to sing themselves, it can't be expected that they care enough to pay someone else to sing or accompany their silence. Ironically, one common defense of the Latin Mass against the Novus Ordo is the aesthetic superiority of the former. Sadly, this is not true (musically speaking) in many, many cases.
I am just a disillusioned youth, wandering aimlessly through a world that is not as rosy as he once thought.
Thank you for bearing with me all these years.
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Maybe there is a valuable lesson. Before embarking on a career make sure there is demand for your skill and you and not basing your future employment on a world that only exists in your dreams.
Lots of people make this mistake writing software to solve a business problem that does not actually exist but which they would like to imagine did. They then spend three years and a few million bucks finding out what a clear mind and a couple of well placed telephone calls could have told them.
You can lay out a logical argument and suggest there is less demand, you can show them the finances of the people who they hope will be their customers. But their dream of being gainfully employed in their dream career blinds them to reality.
Or as despair.com a demotivation company in Austin, Texas would say.
"Dreams are like rainbows. Only idiots chase them"