Author Topic: Working for Protestants (Read 7179 times)

Vladimir · « **on:** August 14, 2011, 06:38:20 PM »

Some members here said that working for a Protestant church is not OK, so maybe they should explain....

LordPhan · « **Reply #1 on:** August 14, 2011, 06:47:39 PM »

Quote

Could you indicate whether I can perform classic country acoustic guitar folk music for income?

It is perfectly permissible to perform old time country folk music for income. It is to be understood, however, that there can be no sensual or immoral themes behind the lyrics used in the songs, and that the style remains that of folk music, refusing the deformations of Jazz and Rock.

It is perfectly permissible to perform old time country folk music on TV, even on TV run by a heretical organization.

It is not permissible to perform Gospel music, either on TV or in public. For this kind of music is an expression of the false protestant religion, and is consequently an active participation in the propagation of a false religion. It is consequently not permissible to perform Gospel music in a nursing home.

It is perfectly permissible to adapt the medium of "Gospel" music, that is the style, to Catholic use, and to write Catholic lyrics yourself, to go with commonly known Gospel style tunes. The popular medium could then be used to popularize and propagate the Catholic Faith. Under these conditions you could sing publicly in a nursing home, or on Christian TV, even if the producers or organizers were not aware of the fact that the music that you are singing, actually expresses Catholicism and not Protestantism. To do so would be to perform a good deed, for the salvation of souls.

It is perfectly licit, as a professional performer, to perform at secular ceremonies, including secular marriage ceremonies, that is when there is really no religious service, even if a minister of religion is present. It is certainly permissible to perform at wedding receptions. It is not permissible to actively participate in a Protestant religious ceremony by which a person would marry. This distinction may sometimes be a little difficult to make.

I do hope that these few remarks help you to decide what to do, and I pray that God will bless you and enable you and your guitar to edify as well as to please. [Answered by Fr. Peter R. Scott]

Vladimir · « **Reply #2 on:** August 14, 2011, 08:43:20 PM »

OK

how does playing the ____, or even singing, for a Protestant church make you more protestant.

musical performance is...musical performance. It is not actively participating in religion.

Does playing Mozart make one promote Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ?

does playing Vivaldi say that you encourage priests to become laicized, etc (actually not sure if Vivaldi was laicized, but from his musical output it is hardly likely that he ever fulfilled any of his priestly duties)?

if you see someone playing Beethoven is your first impression that they are a humanist?

albeit the line can be hazy..how can say that *just* playing (and musically enjoying it) an instrument or singing, etc in a Prot. church after sunday Mass be sinful

MaterDominici · « **Reply #3 on:** August 14, 2011, 08:48:31 PM »

Vlad,
I think it has more to do with helping to facilitate the Protestant service, not so much a concern that the musician would be corrupted.

Sigismund · « **Reply #4 on:** August 14, 2011, 09:14:59 PM »

That is the issue, I think. I don't see any problem with a Catholic musician giving a concert in a Protestant church, or participating in a secular event that happens to take place in one. (I am thinking of an Independence Day event that took place every year in the town I grew up in. They had it in a big Presbyterian Church just because of the size of the building.) However, playing music for a Protestant service is not just attending but taking a leadership role in Protestant worship. I probably take a more permissive view of such things than many here, but I can't see how it would be okay to actually lead Protest worship, ot to lead the music for such a service.

What about the reverse? Could a Protestant musician play in a Catholic service? One of the best church musicians I ever know was an Episcopalian. He played at a Catholic Church, and the music at the Mass he played for was both much better aesthetically and much more orthodox than the folk nonsense at the other Masses.

Vladimir · « **Reply #5 on:** August 14, 2011, 09:44:11 PM »

Anglicans do tend to be good musicians.

Agree about secular concerts, etc.

The key about what you said was "leadership". A musician (even if he is the sole one) is not really a "leader" in Protestant liturgy (neither is the organist in a Catholic church - although I use a profaned understanding of the term as one who plays the organ, not the official definition as one that is in head of all the choirs, etc). Really he is just like a "hired hand".

Playing the organ - OK it makes singing easier - but in its absence...the protestant service is affected only aestetically. Maybe an example would be the man that paints the walls of prot church. If he didn't paint it...protestant will be protestant. Just without painted walls. Same -if I don't play the organ...they will sing...without the organ.

Maybe what Sigusmund and MaterDominici say can apply to a theoretical Catholic director of music at a Prot church. In that case you would be actively organizing a protestant liturgy, but even then maybe you cannot even say that that is sinful.

But for a simple musician....not really I think.

and the argument that it would give scandal is pretty ridiculous.

What does Raoul76 think?!?!

other people?

Sigismund · « **Reply #6 on:** August 15, 2011, 08:35:21 AM »

Quote from: Sigismund

That is the issue, I think. I don't see any problem with a Catholic musician giving a concert in a Protestant church, or participating in a secular event that happens to take place in one. (I am thinking of an Independence Day event that took place every year in the town I grew up in. They had it in a big ####ian Church just because of the size of the building.) However, playing music for a Protestant service is not just attending but taking a leadership role in Protestant worship. I probably take a more permissive view of such things than many here, but I can't see how it would be okay to actually lead Protest worship, ot to lead the music for such a service.

What about the reverse? Could a Protestant musician play in a Catholic service? One of the best church musicians I ever know was an Episcopalian. He played at a Catholic Church, and the music at the Mass he played for was both much better aesthetically and much more orthodox than the folk nonsense at the other Masses.

Matthew,

Why in the world is the name of a particular Protestant church beginning wit P blocked out, when others are not?

s2srea · « **Reply #7 on:** August 15, 2011, 09:45:15 AM »

Quote from: Vladimir

Anglicans do tend to be good musicians.

Agree about secular concerts, etc.

The key about what you said was "leadership". A musician (even if he is the sole one) is not really a "leader" in Protestant liturgy (neither is the organist in a Catholic church - although I use a profaned understanding of the term as one who plays the organ, not the official definition as one that is in head of all the choirs, etc). Really he is just like a "hired hand".

Playing the organ - OK it makes singing easier - but in its absence...the protestant service is affected only aestetically. Maybe an example would be the man that paints the walls of prot church. If he didn't paint it...protestant will be protestant. Just without painted walls. Same -if I don't play the organ...they will sing...without the organ.

Maybe what Sigusmund and MaterDominici say can apply to a theoretical Catholic director of music at a Prot church. In that case you would be actively organizing a protestant liturgy, but even then maybe you cannot even say that that is sinful.

But for a simple musician....not really I think.

and the argument that it would give scandal is pretty ridiculous.

What does Raoul76 think?!?!

other people?

I know I'm not Raoul, Vlad, but I have just finished reading on this subject, not too long ago, in a book given to me by Caminus. I don't think he'd mind me quoting from it. It is a III part work by Fr. Francis J. Connell, CSSR published by The Catholic University of America, in The American Ecclesiastical Review, 1946.

First, we must consider types of co-operation:

Physical Co-operation: "Collaboration consisting of some physical act": i.e.providing articles to be used in non-Catholic religious services, allowing such a service to be held in some place under one's jurisdiction, etc. [I believe this is where your, playing with a protestant service falls] "The ruel is that formal co-operation is never allowed, material co-operation is per se forbidden, but for a sufficiently grave reason can per accidens become ilicit.

Moral Co-operation: "Co-operation is not limited to physical activity in or toward another's action." Co-operation may consist in moral concurrence- for example, advice, conselling, urgiing, which will induce or help another to act. If such advice or consulling or inducement is directed to the performance of an action that is intrinsically wrong, it ordinarily constitutes formal co-operation in the evil act, and consequently, is intrinsically wrong."

Lastly, I will quote from Connell, his examples of what should be done in the cases of Catholics joining the YMCA and what a catholic should do when they are employed doing secretarial work for non-Catholic ministers.

YMCA: "As to the moral problem of the participation of Catholics in the activites of the YMCA, it is very evident that they may not take part in any religious functions, for these are surely Protestant in Character. Neither could they attend Bible classes, religoius lectures, etc. At most it would be permissible for a Catholic to join the YMCA in order to take advantage of the athletic facilities, and perhaps some of the social or cultural functions.

Secretarial Work: A Catholic could serve as secretary to a non-Catholic clergyman... but not if her usual work was copying sermons, making arrangements for church services, etc. In this latter case, co-operation would be material; but it would be so proximate, that it is difficult to find a reason to justify it."

Lastly, from Baltimore Catechism #3:

". 1148. How do we offer God false worship?

A. We offer God false worship by rejecting the religion He has instituted and following one pleasing to ourselves, with a form of worship He has never authorized, approved or sanctioned."

Lastly, have you consulted a traditional priest on this? If not, why not?

Matthew · « **Reply #8 on:** August 15, 2011, 01:18:57 PM »

Quote from: Sigismund

Quote from: Sigismund
That is the issue, I think. I don't see any problem with a Catholic musician giving a concert in a Protestant church, or participating in a secular event that happens to take place in one. (I am thinking of an Independence Day event that took place every year in the town I grew up in. They had it in a big ####ian Church just because of the size of the building.) However, playing music for a Protestant service is not just attending but taking a leadership role in Protestant worship. I probably take a more permissive view of such things than many here, but I can't see how it would be okay to actually lead Protest worship, ot to lead the music for such a service.

What about the reverse? Could a Protestant musician play in a Catholic service? One of the best church musicians I ever know was an Episcopalian. He played at a Catholic Church, and the music at the Mass he played for was both much better aesthetically and much more orthodox than the folk nonsense at the other Masses.

Matthew,

Why in the world is the name of a particular Protestant church beginning wit P blocked out, when others are not?

Because Traditio has their own pet term for "priest" that they apply to any priest not ordained by a sedevacantist Bishop.

I don't like Traditio, and so I don't allow Traditio-speak on here.

Vladimir · « **Reply #9 on:** August 15, 2011, 03:04:18 PM »

Quote from: s2srea

Quote from: Vladimir
Anglicans do tend to be good musicians.

Agree about secular concerts, etc.

The key about what you said was "leadership". A musician (even if he is the sole one) is not really a "leader" in Protestant liturgy (neither is the organist in a Catholic church - although I use a profaned understanding of the term as one who plays the organ, not the official definition as one that is in head of all the choirs, etc). Really he is just like a "hired hand".

Playing the organ - OK it makes singing easier - but in its absence...the protestant service is affected only aestetically. Maybe an example would be the man that paints the walls of prot church. If he didn't paint it...protestant will be protestant. Just without painted walls. Same -if I don't play the organ...they will sing...without the organ.

Maybe what Sigusmund and MaterDominici say can apply to a theoretical Catholic director of music at a Prot church. In that case you would be actively organizing a protestant liturgy, but even then maybe you cannot even say that that is sinful.

But for a simple musician....not really I think.

and the argument that it would give scandal is pretty ridiculous.

What does Raoul76 think?!?!

other people?

I know I'm not Raoul, Vlad, but I have just finished reading on this subject, not too long ago, in a book given to me by Caminus. I don't think he'd mind me quoting from it. It is a III part work by Fr. Francis J. Connell, CSSR published by The Catholic University of America, in The American Ecclesiastical Review, 1946.

First, we must consider types of co-operation:

Physical Co-operation: "Collaboration consisting of some physical act": i.e.providing articles to be used in non-Catholic religious services, allowing such a service to be held in some place under one's jurisdiction, etc. [I believe this is where your, playing with a protestant service falls] "The ruel is that formal co-operation is never allowed, material co-operation is per se forbidden, but for a sufficiently grave reason can per accidens become ilicit.

Moral Co-operation: "Co-operation is not limited to physical activity in or toward another's action." Co-operation may consist in moral concurrence- for example, advice, conselling, urgiing, which will induce or help another to act. If such advice or consulling or inducement is directed to the performance of an action that is intrinsically wrong, it ordinarily constitutes formal co-operation in the evil act, and consequently, is intrinsically wrong."

Lastly, I will quote from Connell, his examples of what should be done in the cases of Catholics joining the YMCA and what a catholic should do when they are employed doing secretarial work for non-Catholic ministers.

YMCA: "As to the moral problem of the participation of Catholics in the activites of the YMCA, it is very evident that they may not take part in any religious functions, for these are surely Protestant in Character. Neither could they attend Bible classes, religoius lectures, etc. At most it would be permissible for a Catholic to join the YMCA in order to take advantage of the athletic facilities, and perhaps some of the social or cultural functions.

Secretarial Work: A Catholic could serve as secretary to a non-Catholic clergyman... but not if her usual work was copying sermons, making arrangements for church services, etc. In this latter case, co-operation would be material; but it would be so proximate, that it is difficult to find a reason to justify it."

Lastly, from Baltimore Catechism #3:

". 1148. How do we offer God false worship?

A. We offer God false worship by rejecting the religion He has instituted and following one pleasing to ourselves, with a form of worship He has never authorized, approved or sanctioned."

Lastly, have you consulted a traditional priest on this? If not, why not?

re: trad. priest. I have. Twice. And his answer for my question is no, not sinful. Which is why I am bringing this up because it seems like the members of this site are being misleading.

Thank you for the definitions. But can you explain why you think this fits my case.

What I say exactly is: is it sinful to be employed as organist at Protestant church either for or without payment. And answer was no.

Sigismund · « **Reply #10 on:** August 15, 2011, 04:52:46 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: Sigismund
Quote from: Sigismund
That is the issue, I think. I don't see any problem with a Catholic musician giving a concert in a Protestant church, or participating in a secular event that happens to take place in one. (I am thinking of an Independence Day event that took place every year in the town I grew up in. They had it in a big ####ian Church just because of the size of the building.) However, playing music for a Protestant service is not just attending but taking a leadership role in Protestant worship. I probably take a more permissive view of such things than many here, but I can't see how it would be okay to actually lead Protest worship, ot to lead the music for such a service.

What about the reverse? Could a Protestant musician play in a Catholic service? One of the best church musicians I ever know was an Episcopalian. He played at a Catholic Church, and the music at the Mass he played for was both much better aesthetically and much more orthodox than the folk nonsense at the other Masses.

Matthew,

Why in the world is the name of a particular Protestant church beginning wit P blocked out, when others are not?

Because Traditio has their own pet term for "priest" that they apply to any priest not ordained by a sedevacantist Bishop.

I don't like Traditio, and so I don't allow Traditio-speak on here.

Okay. :smile: I would never have guessed that was the reason.

Sigismund · « **Reply #11 on:** August 15, 2011, 04:56:21 PM »

I once emailed the Traditio priest and told him that the term he likes to use is the exact equivalent of "priest", that the word "priest" derived etymologically from that word, and that no matter how he slices it, it is not an insulting thing to call a priest. The response I got was dismissive and did not really respond to what I said. I have not taken him seriously since.

s2srea · « **Reply #12 on:** August 15, 2011, 07:32:26 PM »

Quote from: Vladimir

re: trad. priest. I have. Twice. And his answer for my question is no, not sinful. Which is why I am bringing this up because it seems like the members of this site are being misleading.

That is very surprising Vlad. Is this priest independent? I can't imagine SSPX or CMRI priest's agreeing with this position. Even the 4 independant priests I know would disapprove, and say it is not the correct thing to do.

Quote

Thank you for the definitions. But can you explain why you think this fits my case.

What I say exactly is: is it sinful to be employed as organist at Protestant church either for or without payment. And answer was no.

The reason I thought it would help you discern why it would be wrong is that if we are taught that a person can be secretary to a Protestant minister, as long as she (practically) has nothing to do with Protestant writings/teachings, why then would it be okay for someone to participate in actual worship with protestants?

LordPhan · « **Reply #13 on:** August 15, 2011, 11:01:04 PM »

Show the article I quoted to your Priest. It is from the Angelus Questions and Answers and is also in the Book "Best of Questions and Answers" it is also on the SSPX.org website under Catholic FAQs

It is written by Father Scott former SSPX District Superior of the SSPX USA District. He currently is the Parish Priest and Principal of the SSPX School 1 hour west of me.

Vladimir · « **Reply #14 on:** August 16, 2011, 12:17:58 AM »

The priest I asked is from the FSSP. His sermons and talks do not betray any sympathy to either Protestantism or the Novus Ordo; as I am not a sedevacantist, I trust him as a source of traditional unadulterated Catholic doctrine - that however, is besides the point. I hesitate to mention his name in such a public forum.

s2srea,

I appreciate your posts. However, I'm still not convinced that playing the organ in and of itself constitutes "participation". You mentioned being a part of a band in the past? Perhaps you know then, how detached a musician can be when practicing his art. It isn't a wonder that so many Protestants and atheists are organists at Catholic churches and never convert - they perform their jobs with the utmost perfection, but yet simultaneously with almost mechanical detachment. Many musicians can retreat into something like a state of interior contemplation when playing music.

As far as I am concerned (and as far as my employer and the congregation is concerned), I am just playing what is put in front of me. Sometimes I pay attention to the lyrics when it is a Catholic hymn or at least a hymn not inimical to the Faith. I sing along when practicing, but never at the actual service.

That said, I know that the above paragraph doesn't really defend my position.

This priest said that what I am doing is not sinful, but since he noted my continual obsessing torment over this question, he told me that if I have qualms about it, I should not do it if I feel like I am sinning - despite the fact that it is not intrinsically sinful.