Pax, you make some good points sometimes, but you really have a hard time grasping the broader picture. Please re-read what I had written: it was an outline, in broad strokes, of the circuмstances, manufactured by the Puritan elites, that fueled what became associated with the Feminist movement. There is always a cause and effect. My purpose was to show how the seeds of this movement were planted in Industrial Revolution soil; at a moment in history when women had been stripped of their value as women and considered the economical value of a child.  It was not my intention to play down the hardship of men - that's in your head - but rather to highlight the sudden switch of roles  women were confronted with back then and the consequences. Women, even while pregnant, or babies on the breast, were expected to do 10-12 hour shifts for the pay of a child. Naturally this lead to an uprise for equal pay. In itself not an evil thing, but a stepping stone in the direction these evil elites wanted: create the crisis, then offer a carrot and step by step lead women off a cliff.

You're missing the point.  Both men and women were manipulated, used and abused during the Industrial Revolution.  Women were lied to and used, in order to start feminism.  

But you keep arguing that the rise of feminism was legit in some way.  I'm saying, in hindsight, that feminism was based on a lie.  IN THE MOMENT, i can't judge those women; I wasn't in their shoes.  But looking back, NOW THAT WE KNOW ALL THE FACTS, we have to say that feminism is a) based on a lie, and b) not good.

You seem to be apologizing for the birth of feminism.  That's wrong.  

The feminism of the early 1900s (even if justified, which it wasn’t) is NOTHING like that of today.  Going back to history is pointless.  The WHY doesn’t matter.  The WHAT matters.  And WHAT is feminism?  It’s anti-Catholic, anti-family and anti-woman (as much as women are told it’s for their benefit).

I don't disagree with this.  And Boru is not apologizing for the start of feminism, she is just trying to give historical perspective.

The bigger problem is Eve was tempted and as daughters of Eve we are easily tempted.  Yet you, Pax, say that women have to fix the problem of feminism, why would they do that?  And the few tradition Catholic women who try to be feminine and act as God intended is not enough women to change anything.  We need both the sacrifices of Catholic men and women to bring down the graces for the return to a Godly society.  Yes?

You can only control yourself.  Forget trying to change the world and change yourself.  Quit trying to explain why bad people act bad.  Pointless.

Then who is suppose to help people to act better?  Men only?  Or do we all help others by being an example in society?  We can't live in a bubble.  Most women were not meant to be hermits without community.  Yet most of us traditional women live in isolation for most of the week. But I guess this should be a new discussion.

Look in the mirror and read your post to yourself.

The first thing Adam did after the fall was to blame Eve and men have been blaming women ever since.  It's not going to change.  Pick a bigger hill to die on.

For equality's (  ) sake, would you agree with the following statement?:

The first thing Eve did after her fall was to tempt/seduce Adam to sin and women have been tempting/seducing men to sin ever since. 

Yes it can be looked at that way and I'd agree.  However from a woman's point of view the first thing she did after, was to share what she grossly, mistakenly thought was her achievement?? with the one she loved.  She didn't want just her to be like a god, she wanted it for her better half too.  If she'd been a femenist she'd have kept it all to herself.
Tempt and seduce or share...depends from whose point of view.

  You must be joking.  If you're serious, then you're a heretic.

I don't give 2 cents about some woman wearing pants on a farm or other cases of necessity.  This isn't the feminism that is a problem (but it's still feminism with a small 'f').
The above is feminist sewage, painting all feminists as the victims.  Saying that women HAD to become independent as some type of "response" to male aggression (i.e. blaming the patriarchy).  Boru, you should be ashamed.  You're swallowing the communist kool-aid, packaged as female "empowerment".  You're being deceived, just as Eve was deceived.  Total nonsense and revisionist history.

At this time is history WOMANHOOD became the victim. It was taken from them. Historical fact. What came after was a knock on effect that escalated out of control - FUNDED - by the Puritan elites who wanted to destroy traditional family life. I'm not saying feminism is a good thing, but I am saying that its roots began with women not being appreciated or valued as women. And no, not all pro-active change was bad. At the time, given the conditions, it was absolutely necessary. Same with His Grace, Archbishop Lefebvre. To revolt against the Pope, his superior, was unheard of. Yet he did it. And why? Because it was absolutely necessary; his back was against the wall. He was left with no choice.  I think one day His Grace will be declared a saint, however the precedent it set, and the climate it created, has, as a natural progression, opened the way for others to use Lefebrve's unique case as an excuse to resist all and every authority for their own private agenda. In other words, there are always going to be opportunists lurking in the shadows ready to take advantage of a crisis.

I know I'm wasting my timing saying all of this to you as you just don't do distinctions. It all black and white; Eve tempted Adam to sin and we just cannot move on from that point. All women are the same. Evil temptresses who should be kept on a lead, if not stoned.  Perhaps we should move on from this topic. It's not healthy for you and WorldsAway. It really isn't. As Gray wisely said, its not a topic that can be fruitfully discussed here; we just round in circles.

Question before I go though: What's Koolaid? An American fizzy drink? I'd love to visit America one-day. Except all your cars are automatics and you drive on the wrong side of the road . (I guess I'd have no choice but to horse-ride then - yay! ) Seriously, it looks an amazing country; no state the same.

(1). At this time is history WOMANHOOD became the victim. It was taken from them.

(2). At the time, given the conditions, it was absolutely necessary. 

(3). Eve tempted Adam to sin and we just cannot move on from that point. All women are the same. Evil temptresses who should be kept on a lead, if not stoned.

(4).  Question before I go though: What's Koolaid?

(1).  Yes, women were mistreated.  So were men.  It was a time where MOST OF THE COMMON FOLK were taken advantage of by the rich, industrialists.  

That’s why I brought up the fact of men working in factories for 10 hrs a day, making little $.  NONE OF THE WORKING CLASS, the COMMON FOLK, WERE DOING WELL.  

a.  Women were mistreated.
b.  Women were told to fight for equality and equal pay.  
c.  Men were also being mistreated.  d.  Who was mistreating both of them?  Millionaires and politicians.  Same as today.  
e.  Instead of women being mad at millionaires and politicians, they were LIED TO and MANIPULATED into being mad at men.  SEE THE DECEPTION?

(2). Changes were necessary.  But “normal men” were made to be enemy when they weren’t.  That was the lie.  It destroyed families. 

(2b).  Why didn’t you tell us that you weren’t American?  I’m not sure that American feminism (as a political movement) can be compared to other countries (ie your country’s experience).  American feminism rose due to poor economics and industrialization.  I’m sure there are similarities to the UK, but the size/scope of these 2 cultures is hard to compare.  


(3). The point is not that Eve tempted Adam but that she was deceived in the first place.  And some of you continue to be deceived even today.  We men are “trying to lead” you to truth, but you’re rejecting it. 

(4).  “Drinking the kool aid” is a term that came from the 1970s when a US cult-leader and his followers drank kool-aid (a sugary drink) mixed with poison and committed mass ѕυιcιdє.  The cult leader convinced his followers to follow him into the next world.  “Drinking the kool aid” is term meaning you’ve been duped and you’re following a lie. 

On feminism origins, you have been duped and are still reiterating the lie that started it all.  You haven’t learned anything.