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Author Topic: Women’s pants  (Read 3373 times)

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Offline WorldsAway

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Re: Women’s pants
« Reply #60 on: July 23, 2025, 09:51:33 AM »
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  • Ah Bishop Williamson in the society, what a dream I've never known. Interesting one of the letters mentions men wearing earrings.
    If you can find them, +Williamson wrote three or four "Slacks" letters when he was rector at Winona. Topical and humorous! He apparently received considerable backlash from women who were, as he would say, "slacking off" in their manner of dress :laugh1:
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Boru

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #61 on: July 23, 2025, 12:43:06 PM »
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  • Re:Bishop Williamson's Letters: Women's trousers are an assault upon woman's womanhood

    Like Cardinal Siri, His Lordship Bishop Williamson's essay contains some very good points - and I took them on board especially the lovely bit about motherhood - but also woven into the thread was a number of rather strange things:

    "Original sin, whereby Eve made Adam sin and not the other way round (I Tim II 14), entailed Eve's being punished, amongst other things, by the turning of her natural and painless subordination to Adam into a punishing domination of his over her, for she had shown by seducing him that she needed to be controlled..."

    Eve made Adam sin?  She seduced him? She needed to be controlled (because of this seduction)?
    This is very similar to the fabrication found in Maria Valtorte's banned work Poem of the Man-God.

    Scripture emphasis that it was Adam, not Eve, who sinned against God and brought death to all mankind. Adam tried to blame Eve (Gen.3:12), but Adam, who heard the command directly from God's mouth, is the one credited with sin’s entrance into the world (see Romans 5). Adam was not misinformed or misled; he was not seduced or deceived as Eve was, he simply decided to rebel against God’s command.

    I'm also greatly surprised to see His Lordship promoting Jensen's stuff. My father was a fan of Malachi Martin back in the day - had all his books - but when my dad converted to the traditional faith, he dropped him like a hotcake. Malachi has all the hallmarks of a charlatan - one of the liberal clergy behind the hijacking of Vatican II, on a Jєωιѕн payroll, laicised for adultery, escaped to New York, re-invented himself as a "traditional" Catholic and spouted blasphemy against Our Lord on Jensen's own program.

    Sorry to derail the topic a bit but its annoying when you get such flies in an otherwise good soup. 


    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #62 on: July 23, 2025, 01:21:53 PM »
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  • "Original sin, whereby Eve made Adam sin and not the other way round (I Tim II 14), entailed Eve's being punished, amongst other things, by the turning of her natural and painless subordination to Adam into a punishing domination of his over her, for she had shown by seducing him that she needed to be controlled..."

    Eve made Adam sin?  She seduced him? She needed to be controlled (because of this seduction)?
    This is very similar to the fabrication found in Maria Valtorte's banned work Poem of the Man-God.

    Scripture emphasis that it was Adam, not Eve, who sinned against God and brought death to all mankind. Adam tried to blame Eve (Gen.3:12), but Adam, who heard the command directly from God's mouth, is the one credited with sin’s entrance into the world (see Romans 5). Adam was not misinformed or misled; he was not seduced or deceived as Eve was, he simply decided to rebel against God’s command.
    Quote
    Ecclesiasticus 25:33 From the woman came the beginning of sin, and by her we all die.

    Adam was tempted by Eve to sin, of course he was seduced. After Adam "blamed" Eve, God asks her "Why hast thou done this?". There are numerous commentaries from Church Fathers and Doctors attesting to this, which I will try to find. 

    Quote
    Genesis 3:17 And to Adam he said: Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee, that thou shouldst not eat

    We have no idea how long Adam was in the Garden prior to the creation of woman. He was commanded not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil prior to the creation of woman, and he did not. He only ate after being tempted to by the woman
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #63 on: July 23, 2025, 02:17:34 PM »
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    Adam was not misinformed or misled; he was not seduced or deceived as Eve was, he simply decided to rebel against God’s command.
    I keep seeing this type of comment from women.  I'll try to explain why you're confused.

    1.  Correct, Adam was not misinformed as to God's command to avoid the Tree of Life.
    2.  Eve was also not misinformed.  Both Adam and Eve knew 100% that eating from this Tree was against God's command.

    3.  Yes, Eve was seduced by the serpent.  Also, Eve committed this sin with full consent of her will.  This is not a contradiction.
    4.  "Being seduced" is the same thing as being tempted.  It does not affect free will, and however strong the temptation/seduction, God provides grace to say 'no'.
    5.  "Being deceived" is also part of temptation.  Eve was deceived by the serpent.  She still decided to sin with full free will.  God does not allow the devil to affect our free will.  Being deceived is not an excuse to sin.  Eve still knew what God commanded.

    6.  Yes, Adam was seduced by Eve.  Also, Adam committed this sin with full consent of the will.  This is not a contradiction.
    7.  "Being seduced/deceived" does not affect free will.  

    Conclusion:  Eve was seduced/deceived by the serpent.  She is still 100% to blame for her own sin.  Adam was seduced/deceived by Eve.  Adam is still 100% to blame for his own sin.

    Online Seraphina

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #64 on: July 23, 2025, 03:59:56 PM »
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  • Let’s settle this. 

    We’ll get the best researchers and find out exactly which clothes God made for Adam and Eve and Catholics will wear only them. 

    Or, they can be reserved for Jews and Catholics will all dress like St. Joseph and Our Lady. The girls and ladies will be the only ones to have a choice between a wide variety of apparitions.  
    :jester:


    Offline Boru

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #65 on: July 23, 2025, 04:00:56 PM »
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  • Adam was tempted by Eve to sin, of course he was seduced. After Adam "blamed" Eve, God asks her "Why hast thou done this?". There are numerous commentaries from Church Fathers and Doctors attesting to this, which I will try to find.

    We have no idea how long Adam was in the Garden prior to the creation of woman. He was commanded not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil prior to the creation of woman, and he did not. He only ate after being tempted to by the woman
    I see what you are saying but its an odd combination - "made to sin" "seduced", "needed to be controlled" in line with the topic of immodesty and pants. Scripture is far simpler - she gave him the apple and he ate. When God asks her 'Why hast thou done this' it was in response to Adam's 'she gave it to me and I ate'. His Lordship's choice of words places great emphasis on Eve seducing Adam and making him sin. Why not use the usual word 'tempted'? 'Seducing' is a strong word with more than one meaning. This is why I mentioned Poem of the Man-God. That's what it reminded me of. When I first started learning about the faith, a relative of my husband's handed me this book. It immediately jarred my soul. And when I got to the part explaining the fall and how Eve sɛҳuąƖly seduced Adam I slammed the book shut. I agree, Adam hearkened to the voice of his wife, but that does not mean he was MADE to sin. I am not excusing Eve. She sinned and encouraged Adam to sin. But where lies the scriptural focus/cause for her punishment of subjection - her, with her lower ability to reason, being talked round by the serpent, or talking Adam, who has a higher ability to reason, into disobedience? What I'm trying to explain is that the whole meaning of a passage can be shifted/changed depended on where the emphasis is placed. And in this case, His Lordship unfortunately gives the impression that out of control Eve used all her womanly powers of seduction to "make" poor Adam sin, thereby making it necessary for him keep her firmly under his control in order to protect himself. There is an over emphasis on Eve's 'seduction' at the expense of Adam's responsibility as head of the family.

    Offline Boru

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #66 on: July 23, 2025, 04:07:45 PM »
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  • Let’s settle this.

    We’ll get the best researchers and find out exactly which clothes God made for Adam and Eve and Catholics will wear only them.

    Or, they can be reserved for Jews and Catholics will all dress like St. Joseph and Our Lady. The girls and ladies will be the only ones to have a choice between a wide variety of apparitions. 
    :jester:
    :jester::jester::jester::jester: No pants then either. I wonder what the difference in apparel was in those days?

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #67 on: July 23, 2025, 04:28:05 PM »
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  • And in this case, His Lordship unfortunately gives the impression that out of control Eve used all her womanly powers of seduction to "make" poor Adam sin, thereby making it necessary for him keep her firmly under his control in order to protect himself.
    1.  Once Eve ate the apple and fell into mortal sin, her concupiscence was "out of control".  Just like a person who gives into drukenness or adultery is also "out of control".  Why is this a hard concept?

    2.  Had Eve forced Adam to sin, then he wouldn't be guilty.  But Adam wasn't forced, he decided on his own (even if seduction was in play).  Adam is 100% guilty.

    3.  Eve DID use her womanly powers to seduce Adam.  Just like the "worst" women do today.  To deny that women do this is to deny human nature.

    4.  Yes, an out of control woman needs to be controlled.  Again, this is nothing new in human history.

    Quote
    There is an over emphasis on Eve's 'seduction' at the expense of Adam's responsibility as head of the family.
    No, you don't get it.  Adam sinned, not because he didn't KNOW God's laws, but because he gave into pleasure. 
    1) the pleasure of "making her happy" by eating the apple, 
    2) the pleasure having peace (i.e. stopping Eve from tempting him).

    A good, catholic wife will want what God wants, so a husband can "make her happy" and make God happy at the same time, because the wife wants what God wants too.

    But Eve was filled with sin, she did NOT want what God wanted.  She hadn't repented.  She was living in sin.  Ergo, she tempted Adam. 

    Adam's responsibility was to RULE the house, but instead of fighting Eve and telling her "no", he relented in the name of pleasure/peace.  He did not act like the authority.  Thus, her punishment was to be under dominion (to curb her DISORDERED desire for control).  And Adam's punishment was to work (to curb his DISORDERED desire for pleasure/peace).

    When a woman is evil she seduces her husband to gain control of the family.  A man must guard against this uprising against his authority.  The 2 are at war with each other.


    Online Seraphina

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #68 on: July 23, 2025, 04:28:36 PM »
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  • That’s why research needs to be done!  We also know there’s no polyester, no mixing of wool with cotton or linen (flax). I’m already considering which Marian apparition I’ll wear to this Sunday Mass! 

    Offline Boru

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #69 on: July 23, 2025, 04:53:56 PM »
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  • 1.  Once Eve ate the apple and fell into mortal sin, her concupiscence was "out of control".  Just like a person who gives into drukenness or adultery is also "out of control".  Why is this a hard concept?

    2.  Had Eve forced Adam to sin, then he wouldn't be guilty.  But Adam wasn't forced, he decided on his own (even if seduction was in play).  Adam is 100% guilty.

    3.  Eve DID use her womanly powers to seduce Adam.  Just like the "worst" women do today.  To deny that women do this is to deny human nature.

    4.  Yes, an out of control woman needs to be controlled.  Again, this is nothing new in human history.
    No, you don't get it.  Adam sinned, not because he didn't KNOW God's laws, but because he gave into pleasure. 
    1) the pleasure of "making her happy" by eating the apple,
    2) the pleasure having peace (i.e. stopping Eve from tempting him).

    A good, catholic wife will want what God wants, so a husband can "make her happy" and make God happy at the same time, because the wife wants what God wants too.

    But Eve was filled with sin, she did NOT want what God wanted.  She hadn't repented.  She was living in sin.  Ergo, she tempted Adam. 

    Adam's responsibility was to RULE the house, but instead of fighting Eve and telling her "no", he relented in the name of pleasure/peace.  He did not act like the authority.  Thus, her punishment was to be under dominion (to curb her DISORDERED desire for control).  And Adam's punishment was to work (to curb his DISORDERED desire for pleasure/peace).

    When a woman is evil she seduces her husband to gain control of the family.  A man must guard against this uprising against his authority.  The 2 are at war with each other.
    Have you been reading Poem of the Man-God? The Church teaches that their sin was pride. Both of them. To speak of concupiscence and "giving in to pleasure" is to add to the confusion of what His Lordship wrote. Adam was pure. He couldn't be tempted sɛҳuąƖly until after the fall. He was tempted in the only way he could be - through his intellect. This is why I questioned His Lordships emphasis; it is distorted and gives the erroneous impression of exactly what you are now preaching.

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #70 on: July 23, 2025, 05:07:43 PM »
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  • Have you been reading Poem of the Man-God? The Church teaches that their sin was pride. Both of them.
    I've never seen that teaching. Eve sinned through pride, to "be as Gods". Adam sinned due to wanting to please Eve, to not be separated from her
     
    Quote
    To speak of concupiscence and "giving in to pleasure" is to add to the confusion of what His Lordship wrote. Adam was pure. He couldn't be tempted sɛҳuąƖly until after the fall. He was tempted in the only way he could be - through his intellect. This is why I questioned His Lordships emphasis; it is distorted and gives the erroneous impression of exactly what you are now preaching.
    Adam had no concupiscence, so he could not be tempted internally. That does not mean he couldn't be tempted externally, which is exactly what happened. 
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #71 on: July 23, 2025, 05:22:57 PM »
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  • Seduction is a general term not related to purity.  Judas was seduced by the joos/$ to betray Christ.  Had nothing to do with impurity.  

    A temptation can be external or internal.  It can be a person, place, thing, idea, desire, etc.  Seduction is used for Eve because the temptation came from a PERSON, most notably through one whom you have a relationship with.  Seduction = a temptation from a person you know.  This is the general definition.  

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #72 on: July 23, 2025, 05:24:10 PM »
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    [W]e cannot believe that Adam was deceived, and supposed the devil's word to be truth, and therefore transgressed God's law, but that he by the drawings of kindred yielded to the woman, the husband to the wife, the one human being to the only other human being. For not without significance did the apostle say, And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression; 1 Timothy 2:14 but he speaks thus, because the woman accepted as true what the serpent told her, but the man could not bear to be severed from his only companion, even though this involved a partnership in sin. He was not on this account less culpable, but sinned with his eyes open. And so the apostle does not say, He did not sin, but He was not deceived. For he shows that he sinned when he says, By one man sin entered into the world, Romans 5:12 and immediately after more distinctly, In the likeness of Adam's transgression. But he meant that those are deceived who do not judge that which they do to be sin; but he knew. Otherwise how were it true Adam was not deceived? But having as yet no experience of the divine severity, he was possibly deceived in so far as he thought his sin venial. And consequently he was not deceived as the woman was deceived, but he was deceived as to the judgment which would be passed on his apology: The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me, and I did eat. Genesis 3:12 What need of saying more? Although they were not both deceived by credulity, yet both were entangled in the snares of the devil, and taken by sin.

    City of God, Book 14, Chapter 11
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Boru

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #73 on: July 23, 2025, 06:41:01 PM »
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  • City of God, Book 14, Chapter 11

    Gen. 3:22: "And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever."  These are God's words. He is chastising Adam for his intention; "for coveting inordinately a spiritual good above his measure" to paraphrase St. Thomas Aquinas.
    And, states St. Thomas "this pertains to pride. Therefore it is evident that man's first sin was pride." - Summa Theologica article 1.

    Footnote: [22] "Behold Adam": This was spoken by way of reproaching him for his pride, in affecting a knowledge that might make him like to God.


    " ...That does not mean he couldn't be tempted externally, which is exactly what happened." - WorldsAway

    What do you mean by this?

    Offline Boru

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #74 on: July 23, 2025, 07:09:18 PM »
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  • That’s why research needs to be done!  We also know there’s no polyester, no mixing of wool with cotton or linen (flax). I’m already considering which Marian apparition I’ll wear to this Sunday Mass!
    Spoilt for choice! Our Lady of Nazareth's dress would suit me best I think. Nice and simple and would travel well on a donkey (side saddle of course!)