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Author Topic: Women’s pants  (Read 3731 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Women’s pants
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2025, 03:09:42 PM »
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  • I understand the ideal, but wouldn't you agree that the counter-culture that exists today is so much more than any time period?  We are asking today's traditional Catholics to go against the most fallen time period in the history of the world.  We keep pointing out all our losses like the majority of women (even traditional) wearing pants.  How does this help?
    1.  And God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that which you are able (1 Corinth 10:13) 
    2.  Where sin abounds, grace abounds more (Romans 5:20)
    3.  But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth. (Rev 3:16)

    We're all called to be saints and practice heroic virtue.  If not, then a very, very long purgatory is in our future.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #31 on: July 22, 2025, 03:12:48 PM »
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  • I totally agree! but, in all fairness, where the above wants to be seen and accepted as a female, the average woman wearing pants does not want to be seen nor accepted as a man.
    There is a great difference between a lesbian dressed as a man and the average woman wearing pants.
    The avg woman wearing pants is a feminist, by definition.  She rejects her own nature (to some degree).  A lesbian is just someone who rejects her nature excessively.  But both are rejecting their nature, and thus are a perversion.


    Online Godefroy

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #32 on: July 22, 2025, 03:32:33 PM »
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  • 1.  And God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that which you are able (1 Corinth 10:13)
    2.  Where sin abounds, grace abounds more (Romans 5:20)
    3.  But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth. (Rev 3:16)

    We're all called to be saints and practice heroic virtue.  If not, then a very, very long purgatory is in our future.
    I would hardly call a woman wearing a dress heroic virtue. It's a just woman reclaiming her femininity

    I wear a hat jacket and tie every day, and don't consider myself heroic, yet hardly anyone wears a tie these days. 

    Offline Boru

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #33 on: July 22, 2025, 05:03:02 PM »
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  • "Then let us add that woman wearing man's dress always more or less indicates her reacting to her femininity as though it is inferiority when in fact it is only diversity. The perversion of her psychology is clear to be seen."

    The majority of what Cardinal Siri says I agree with. Where I hesitate, and why I hesitate, is because I do not see this attitude among our traditional Catholic girls. We are in different times; the girls have been reared with a society of trouser wearing women from grandparents to aunts to teachers. It's considered the norm as opposed to a rebellion against their womanhood. I'm not saying it doesn't collectively carry the consequences that Cardinal Siri listed, but it is not "her reacting to her femininity" as it was in the 1960's. They do not see it as wearing man's attire but rather a more practical feminine form of dress especially as most women now work outside the home. Many women feel safer in trousers both while traveling and in the office.

    "In truth when relationships between the two sexes unfold with the coming of age, an instinct of mutual attraction is predominant.  The essential basis of this attraction is a diversity between the two sexes which is made possible only by their complementing or completing one another.  If then this "diversity" becomes less obvious because one of its major external signs is eliminated and because the normal psychological structure is weakened, what results is the alteration of a fundamental factor in the relationship." 

    I agree with this in principle - I understand what Cardinal Siri is saying - however the normal psychological and social structure between sexes is so damaged, and so broken down, that making an issue of "pants" as the focal point of "building back better" (sorry couldn't resist) is running before we can even walk. To my mind, encouraging women back into the home is where it starts; valuing womanhood and motherhood. Setting supports in place that help educate a girl within the home without her feeling cut off and isolated. Helping young people secure a basic home so the wife does not have to go out to work.


    "A woman shall not be clothed with man's apparel, neither shall a man use woman's apparel : for he that doeth these things is abominable before God. "


    Bible hub: "woman must not wear men’s clothing
    This phrase addresses the importance of maintaining distinct gender roles as established by God. In the ancient Near Eastern context, clothing was a significant marker of identity and social status. The prohibition against women wearing men's clothing can be seen as a safeguard against blurring the lines of gender distinction, which was crucial in maintaining societal order and religious purity. This command reflects the broader biblical theme of honoring God's created order, as seen in Genesis 1:27, where God created male and female. The principle here is not merely about clothing but about respecting the roles and distinctions God has ordained.
    and a man must not wear women’s clothing
    Similarly, this part of the verse emphasizes the importance of men maintaining their God-given identity. In ancient Israel, clothing was often associated with one's role and function within the community. By prohibiting men from wearing women's clothing, the text underscores the need for men to embrace their responsibilities and roles as leaders and protectors. This aligns with other biblical teachings on gender roles, such as those found in 1 Corinthians 11:3-15, which discuss the headship of men and the complementary roles of men and women.
    for whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD your God
    The use of the word "detestable" indicates the seriousness with which God views the violation of His created order."

    So it goes deeper than simply "pants".  This makes more sense to me.


    All in all though, I'm on the same page. I think the Cardinal Siri essay very good; has given me a lot to think about.
    Pax Vobis and Mr.G., thank you for posting.





    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #34 on: July 22, 2025, 05:07:23 PM »
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  • Back 80’s many of us were wearing dresses and skirts most of the time. 

    Now today young ladies dress almost nude.  Nothing says hooker like those super tight and short dresses…. Instead of a decent a line to the knee. 


    May God bless you and keep you


    Offline Boru

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #35 on: July 22, 2025, 05:10:44 PM »
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  • So when you're not working with horses, or doing farming activities, or yard work, etc....are you wearing non-pants the rest of the time? 
    Yes, riding only.  Except for the height of winter when they go under my skirt ;)

    Offline Fiorenza

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #36 on: July 22, 2025, 05:12:15 PM »
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  • From a psychological perspective, I wonder how women feel wearing pants? Is it like a man wearing a dress? Is it transgressive? Do they think it's male apparel? Do they feel more powerful? Custom might play a role then maybe if it's innocent or a woman has never thought about it like that. In the 1950s and before it was. 

    It's like how those who dress immodestly have been said to enjoy the voyeur's gaze. They get power from temptation or from display.

    I can't read minds, so can't be sure, but just 2c.

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #37 on: July 22, 2025, 05:31:06 PM »
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  • From a psychological perspective, I wonder how women feel wearing pants? Is it like a man wearing a dress? Is it transgressive? Do they think it's male apparel? Do they feel more powerful? Custom might play a role then maybe if it's innocent or a woman has never thought about it like that. In the 1950s and before it was.

    It's like how those who dress immodestly have been said to enjoy the voyeur's gaze. They get power from temptation or from display.

    I can't read minds, so can't be sure, but just 2c.
    I think that since women wearing pants has been an acceptable custom since the 1970s (actually in 1923 the laws were changed so women could wear pants in public), that most women do not think of themselves as purposefully dressing male.  

    Here is an interesting history

    https://vintagedancer.com/1940s/womens-1940s-pants-styles/


    On a personal note, my husband 20 years ago said wear only dresses and skirts, so I did.  I didn't like it at first and I didn't like to stand out, but I did it anyways.  I won't go back to pants now. (I don't know if anyone else notices, but a women wearing modest dresses and skirts in public, gets so much more polite treatment.)
    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"


    Offline Boru

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #38 on: July 22, 2025, 05:44:23 PM »
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  • On a personal note, my husband 20 years ago said wear only dresses and skirts, so I did.  I didn't like it at first and I didn't like to stand out, but I did it anyways.  I won't go back to pants now. (I don't know if anyone else notices, but a women wearing modest dresses and skirts in public, gets so much more polite treatment.)
    Oh definitely! Although once when I was walking through Heathrow airport with my daughters, a man stopped us and asked us if we were Jєωιѕн!!!! "Cause you're all in long skirts...."  :laugh1:

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #39 on: July 22, 2025, 06:33:54 PM »
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  • Woman should definitely not wear pants. Most men will unconsciously look at a woman's butt, in the fact whole body. Modesty in dress helps prevent men from lust. The more immodest the apparel the worse the temptation.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #40 on: July 22, 2025, 06:55:02 PM »
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  • Notification Concerning Men's Dress Worn By Women
    By Giuseppe Cardinal Siri 
    Genoa,    June 12, 1960

    To the Reverend Clergy,
    To all Teaching sisters,
    To the beloved sons of Catholic Action,
    To Educators intending truly to follow Christian Doctrine.1


    I

    The first signs of our late arriving spring indicate that there is this year a certain increase in the use of men's dress by girls and women, even family mothers.  Up until 1959, in Genoa, such dress usually meant the person was a tourist, but now it seems to be a significant number of girls and women from Genoa itself who are choosing at least on pleasure trips to wear men's dress (men's trousers).

    The extension of this behavior obliges us to take serious thought, and we ask those to whom this Notification is addressed to kindly lend to the problem all the attention it deserves from anyone aware of being in any way responsible before God.

    We seek above all to give a balanced moral judgment upon the wearing of men's dress by women. In fact Our thoughts can only bear upon the moral question.

    Firstly, when it comes to covering of the female body, the wearing of men's trousers by women cannot be said to constitute AS SUCH A GRAVE OFFENSE AGAINST MODESTY, because trousers certainly cover more of woman's body than do modern women's skirts.

    Secondly, however, clothes to be modest need not only to cover the body but also not to cling too closely to the body.  Now it is true that much feminine clothing today clings closer than do some trousers, but trousers can be made to cling closer, in fact generally they do, so the tight fit of such clothing gives us not less grounds for concern than does exposure of the body.  So the immodesty of men's trousers on women is an aspect of the problem which is not to be left out of an over-all judgment upon them, even if it is not to be artificially exaggerated either.


    II

    However, it is a different aspect of women's wearing of men's trousers which seems to us the gravest.

    The wearing of men's dress by women affects firstly the woman herself, by changing the feminine psychology proper to women; secondly it affects the woman as wife of her husband, by tending to vitiate relationships between the sexes; thirdly it affects the woman as mother of her children by harming her dignity in her children's eyes.  Each of these points is to be carefully considered in turn:--


    A.  MALE DRESS CHANGES THE PSYCHOLOGY OF WOMAN.
    In truth, the motive impelling women to wear men's dress is always that of imitating, nay, of competing with, the man who is considered stronger, less tied down, more independent.  This motivation shows clearly that male dress is the visible aid to bringing about a mental attitude of being "like a man."  Secondly, ever since men have been men, the clothing a person wears, demands, imposes and modifies that person's gestures, attitudes and behavior, such that from merely being worn outside, clothing comes to impose a particular frame of mind inside.

    Then let us add that woman wearing man's dress always more or less indicates her reacting to her femininity as though it is inferiority when in fact it is only diversity. The perversion of her psychology is clear to be seen.

    These reasons, summing up many more, are enough to warn us how wrongly women are made to think by the wearing of men's dress.

    B.  MALE DRESS TENDS TO VITIATE RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN WOMEN AND MEN.
    In truth when relationships between the two sexes unfold with the coming of age, an instinct of mutual attraction is predominant.  The essential basis of this attraction is a diversity between the two sexes which is made possible only by their complementing or completing one another.  If then this "diversity" becomes less obvious because one of its major external signs is eliminated and because the normal psychological structure is weakened, what results is the alteration of a fundamental factor in the relationship.

    The problem goes further still.  Mutual attraction between the sexes is preceded both naturally, and in order of time, by that sense of shame which holds the rising instincts in check, imposes respect upon them, and tends to lift to a higher level of mutual esteem and healthy fear everything that those instincts would push onwards to uncontrolled acts.  To change that clothing which by its diversity reveals and upholds nature's limits and defense-works, is to flatten out the distinctions and to help pull down the vital defense-works of the sense of shame.

    It is at least to hinder that sense.  And when the sense of shame is hindered from putting on the brakes, then relationships between man and women sink degradingly down to pure sensuality, devoid of all mutual respect or esteem.

    Experience is there to tell us that when woman is de-feminised, then defenses are undermined and weakness increases.

    C. MALE DRESS HARMS THE DIGNITY OF THE MOTHER IN HER CHILDREN'S EYES.
    All children have an instinct for the sense of dignity and decorum of their mother.  Analysis of the first inner crisis of children when they awaken to life around them even before they enter upon adolescence, shows how much the sense of their mother counts.  Children are as sensitive as can be on this point.  Adults have usually left all that behind them and think no more on it.  But we would do well to recall to mind the severe demands that children instinctively make of their own mother, and the deep and even terrible reactions roused in them by observation of their mother's misbehavior.  Many lines of later life are here traced out -- and not for good -- in these early inner dramas of infancy and childhood.

    The child may not know the definition of exposure, frivolity or infidelity, but he possesses an instinctive sixth sense to recognize them when they occur, to suffer from them, and be bitterly wounded by them in his soul.


    III

    Let us think seriously on the import of everything said so far, even if woman's appearing in man's dress does not immediately give rise to all the upset caused by grave immodesty.

    The changing of feminine psychology does fundamental and, in the long run, irreparable damage to the family, to conjugal fidelity, to human affections and to human society.  True, the effects of wearing unsuitable dress are not all to be seen within a short time.  But one must think of what is being slowly and insidiously worn down, torn apart, perverted.

    Is any satisfying reciprocity between husband and wife imaginable, if feminine psychology be changed?  Or is any true education of children imaginable, which is so delicate in its procedure, so woven of imponderable factors in which the mother's intuition and instinct play the decisive part in those tender years?  What will these women be able to give their children when they will so long have worn trousers that their self-esteem goes more by their competing with the men than by their functioning as women?

    Why, we ask, ever since men have been men, or rather since they became civilized -- why have men in all times and places been irresistibly borne to make a differentiated division between the functions of the two sexes?  Do we not have here strict testimony to the recognition by all mankind of a truth and a law above man?

    To sum up, wherever women wear men's dress, it is to be considered a factor in the long run tearing apart human order.


    IV

    The logical consequence of everything presented so far is that anyone in a position of responsibility should be possessed by a SENSE of ALARM in the true and proper meaning of the word, a severe and decisive ALARM.

    We address a grave warning to parish priests, to all priests in general and to confessors in particular, to members of every kind of association, to all religious, to all nuns, especially to teaching Sisters.

    We invite them to become clearly conscious of the problem so that action will follow.  This consciousness is what matters.  It will suggest the appropriate action in due time.  But let it not counsel us to give way in the face of inevitable change, as though we are confronted by a natural evolution of mankind, and so on!

    Men may come and men may go, because God has left plenty of room for the to and fro of their free-will; but the substantial lines of nature and the not less substantial lines of Eternal Law have never changed, are not changing and never will change.  There are bounds beyond which one may stray as far as one sees fit, but to do so ends in death; there are limits which empty philosophical fantasizing may have one mock or not take seriously, but they put together an alliance of hard facts and nature to chastise anybody who steps over them.  And history has sufficiently taught, with frightening proof from the life and death of nations, that the reply to all violators of the outline of "humanity" is always, sooner or later, catastrophe.

    From the dialectic of Hegel onwards, we have had dinned in our ears what are nothing but fables, and by dint of hearing them so often, many people end up by getting used to them, if only passively.  But the truth of the matter is that Nature and Truth, and the Law bound up in both, go their imperturbable way, and they cut to pieces the simpletons who upon no grounds whatsoever believe in radical and far-reaching changes in the very structure of man.

    The consequences of such violations are not a new outline of man, but disorders, hurtful instability of all kinds, the frightening dryness of human souls, the shattering increase in the number of human castaways, driven long since out of people's sight and mind to live out their decline in boredom, sadness and rejection.  Aligned on the wrecking of the eternal norms are to be found the broken families, lives cut short before their time, hearths and homes gone cold, old people cast to one side, youngsters willfully degenerate and -- at the end of the line -- souls in despair and taking their own lives.  All of which human wreckage gives witness to the fact that the "line of God" does not give way, nor does it admit of any adaption to the delirious dreams of the so-called philosophers!


    V

    We have said that those to whom the present Notification is addressed are invited to take serious alarm at the problem in hand.  Accordingly they know what they have to say, starting with little girls on their mother's knee.

    They know that without exaggerating or turning into fanatics, they will need to strictly limit how far they tolerate women dressing like men, as a general rule.

    They know they must never be so weak as to let anyone believe that they turn a blind eye to a custom which is slipping downhill and undermining the moral standing of all institutions.

    They, the priests, know that the line they have to take in the confessional, while not holding women dressing like men to be automatically a grave fault, must be sharp and decisive.

    Everybody will kindly give thought to the need for a united line of action, reinforced on every side by the cooperation of all men of good will and all enlightened minds, so as to create a true dam to hold back the flood.

    Those of you responsible for souls in whatever capacity understand how useful it is to have for allies in this defensive campaign men of the arts, the media and the crafts.  The position taken by fashion design houses, their brilliant designers and the clothing industry, is of crucial importance in this whole question.  Artistic sense, refinement and good taste meeting together can find suitable but dignified solution as to the dress for women to wear when they must use a motorcycle or engage in this or that exercise or work.  What matters is to preserve modesty together with the eternal sense of femininity, that femininity which more than anything else all children will continue to associate with the face of their mother.

    We do not deny that modern life sets problems and makes requirements unknown to our grandparents.  But we state that there are values more needing to be protected than fleeting experiences, and that for anybody of intelligence there are always good sense and good taste enough to find acceptable and dignified solutions to problems as they come up.

    Out of charity we are fighting against the flattening out of mankind, against the attack upon those differences on which rests the complementarity of man and woman.

    When we see a woman in trousers, we should think not so much of her as of all mankind, of what it will be when women will have masculinized themselves for good.  Nobody stands to gain by helping to bring about a future age of vagueness, ambiguity, imperfection and, in a word, monstrosities.

    This letter of Ours is not addressed to the public, but to those responsible for souls, for education, for Catholic associations.  Let them do their duty, and let them not be sentries caught asleep at their post while evil crept in.

    Giuseppe Cardinal Siri
    Archbishop of Genoa
    👌 


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #41 on: July 22, 2025, 06:59:53 PM »
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  • Men may come and men may go, because God has left plenty of room for the to and fro of their free-will; but the substantial lines of nature and the not less substantial lines of Eternal Law have never changed, are not changing and never will change. There are bounds beyond which one may stray as far as one sees fit, but to do so ends in death; there are limits which empty philosophical fantasizing may have one mock or not take seriously, but they put together an alliance of hard facts and nature to chastise anybody who steps over them. And history has sufficiently taught, with frightening proof from the life and death of nations, that the reply to all violators of the outline of "humanity" is always, sooner or later, catastrophe.
    How right he was, maybe he was the Pope after all?

    We can see this catastrophe in the modern world. Woman destroying themselves by gaining sɛҳuąƖ experience. High divorce rates. High rates of male loneliness (singledom). High rate of women not getting married or having children. Low birth rates. Etc

    It's not surprising that other than lust most modern woman have little to no feminine appeal. Being overweight also destroys this appeal.

    Quote
    The consequences of such violations are not a new outline of man, but disorders, hurtful instability of all kinds, the frightening dryness of human souls, the shattering increase in the number of human castaways, driven long since out of people's sight and mind to live out their decline in boredom, sadness and rejection. Aligned on the wrecking of the eternal norms are to be found the broken families, lives cut short before their time, hearths and homes gone cold, old people cast to one side, youngsters willfully degenerate and -- at the end of the line -- souls in despair and taking their own lives. All of which human wreckage gives witness to the fact that the "line of God" does not give way, nor does it admit of any adaption to the delirious dreams of the so-called philosophers!
    Behold a 'prophet'.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #42 on: July 22, 2025, 07:08:21 PM »
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  • Right.  Because women started wearing men's clothing.  If a man wears women's clothing, he's a pervert.  If a woman does it, she's independent and "fashionable".

    Women wearing men's attire (i.e. pants) is not suitable to their sex.  Scripture doesn't allow it.

    Notice that this Scripture verse isn't talking about modesty.  It's talking about what Cardinal Siri is talking about...the perversion of male/female.  God calls it an ABOMINATION, the same thing he calls ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and other things.  The wearing of opposite-sex attire is related to ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity.  It's a stepping stone to the ultimate perversion.


    Right, that's what the Church is for.  Cardinal Siri comments on both immodest dress and perverse/cross-gender dress.

    :laugh1:  Strawman.  The rules are simple:  One's attire must be a) modest and b) gender appropriate.
    Pax are earrings considered woman's apparel? What about other adornments?
     There a lot of men who wear jewelry. Etc.

    Offline Fiorenza

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #43 on: July 22, 2025, 07:21:22 PM »
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  • I think that since women wearing pants has been an acceptable custom since the 1970s (actually in 1923 the laws were changed so women could wear pants in public), that most women do not think of themselves as purposefully dressing male. 

    Here is an interesting history

    https://vintagedancer.com/1940s/womens-1940s-pants-styles/


    On a personal note, my husband 20 years ago said wear only dresses and skirts, so I did.  I didn't like it at first and I didn't like to stand out, but I did it anyways.  I won't go back to pants now. (I don't know if anyone else notices, but a women wearing modest dresses and skirts in public, gets so much more polite treatment.)

    Interesting. Custom and culture plays a part. The missionary fathers often had to wait decades to address nakedness in the tropics. They of course would wear their long white missionary cassocks and the nuns would always be appropriately turned out. But in that part of the world, it wasn't considered the highest priority. Indeed, the nuns were teaching girls who were topless into the 1950s.

    It is interesting to note that those who wore long grass skirts in the transition period would find the mini-skirt offensive. By then Western style clothing had generally become entrenched. But, not everywhere such as the Amazon, etc.

    It is peculiar anthropology, more of "I know it when I see it" of Justice Potter.

    How would the Apostles do missionary work today? Would it be a blank slate? The Missionary fathers and nuns didn't join in the nakedness of those they were converting of course, but they permitted it during the conversion process. It is said it was "de-sɛҳuąƖized", but not ideal.

    There was an interesting case where an Indian woman from an uncontacted tribe was found in Brazil in recent years and brought into a reserve area. The media were called, but in the night she had disappeared back into the jungle and left her modern clothes behind.

    The scapular medal was introduced partly because of conditions in the Amazons, because normal material would simply rot.

    Offline jen51

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    Re: Women’s pants
    « Reply #44 on: July 22, 2025, 09:21:15 PM »
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  • Lots of interesting discussion here! Thankyou Pax for posting the bit from Cardinal Siri. 


    I actually do think that a woman who makes the switch to feminine dress can indeed open her heart up to true conversion. Men make their way to conversion by reason, usually. Women often make their way to conversion by feelings and experiences. When women wear dresses and skirts and pretty adornments, they feel lovely and at peace in a very natural sort of way.  I switched to wearing skirts and dresses a couple years before I converted just because it felt right, and the finding of and taking joy in femininity really set me up for understanding the truth when I was presented with it. The same feeling I got when wearing skirts, dresses and other classy attire was the same way I felt when I experienced the TLM for the first time. 

    Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation: and to keep one's self unspotted from this world.
    ~James 1:27