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Offline Matthew

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Women wearing men's clothing
« on: December 10, 2007, 04:51:24 PM »
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  • Has this already been posted here? I can't remember.


    That Difficult Question of Immodesty and Women Wearing Men's Clothing

     
    by Marian Therese Horvat, Ph.D.
    Mrs. X was a daily communicant, a pious Catholic living in Quito, Ecuador, in the 1960s. As a lady of certain elegance, she was naturally influenced by the styles of the times. However, as a well bred traditional-minded Catholic, she would never wear men's trousers or a skirt above her knees.
    One day as she arrived at the magnificent Jesuit Church of Jesu in downtown Quito, she realized that she had left her jacket at home. She made a quick decision that it would be better to receive Our Lord wearing the sleeveless blouse than to remain in the pew and only make a spiritual Communion. After all, she rationalized, the neckline was modest and her skirt was quite appropriate.
    The serene and kindly pastor arrived at Mrs. X at the Communion rail. He leaned over as if to give her the Sacred Host. But instead of giving her Communion, he discreetly and firmly whispered into her ear, "Next time, sleeves."
    There was no public humiliation. No one but Mrs. X and the priest knew what had happened. But interiorly humiliated to the very bone, she accepted the correction and, as she affirmed to me when she told the story, she has never appeared inappropriately dressed again in a church. It was a just and charitable correction, in keeping with the old Canon Law which prescribed that women should be modestly dressed, especially when they approach the Holy Table [Canon 1262.2]. 1
    It is a simple story that throws light on just how far the revolution in women's clothing has gone in these forty years of post-conciliar ecclesiastical life. The simple "peccadillo" of being sleeveless would hardly seem worthy of notice today. How many good-willed women and girls come to church and approach the Communion rail ---- or "line" ---- wearing immodest clothes that overexpose the figure? The typical daily or Sunday Mass is assisted by women in tops that are low cut and revealing, blouses that an transparent and sleeveless dresses too short and pants too tight-fitting, and even shorts and cut-offs.
    Comfort and convenience are the common excuses given ---- if excuses are even bothered with ---- for this lack of consideration of God and the honor due Him. Somehow the inappropriately dressed woman has become convinced that Christ will be so pleased to see her there in His house that standards of Catholic modesty and decorum can be ignored and transgressed. In fact, if a courageous priest would ask these women and girls to dress appropriately, in keeping with the holiness
    and dignity of the place, most probably he would be the one considered to be out of line . . .
     A Forgotten Culpability
    But, the woman in shorts might explain, the styles have changed. Clothing has become more relaxed and informal since the revolution of the '60s. That is to say, what was inappropriate in the past is considered appropriate now.
    What has been forgotten is that there is always an unchangeable moral norm to be preserved in modesty of dress. No one is allowed to relax modesty for reasons of summer heat, the current
    styles of fashion, or mere convenience. Pope Pius XII  clearly stated that the excuse that modesty is dictated by custom or time cannot be allowed. He called it "one of the most insidious of sophisms" used "in order to brand as old fashioned the rebellion of honest people against fashions which are
     too bold." 2
    Many people have also become oblivious to the grave consequences of adopting the immodest fashion trends. That such styles would appear was predicted by Our Lady at Fatima in 1917, when She told the youngest seer, Jacinta: "Certain fashions will be introduced which will offend My Son very much. More people go to Hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason." Her words seem to indicate a direct correlation between the fashions that would be introduced ---- which we are all familiar with ---- and the souls who go to Hell because of the sins of the flesh.
    Another very serious consequence often infuriates the modern women when it is mentioned. Nonetheless, it needs to be said. Immodest dress can lead men into sin, and thus the woman who dresses immodestly will bear some degree of culpability both for her own transgressions and for the sins others commit because of them. Pope Pius XII addressed this topic already in the '50s: "How many girls there are who do not see any wrongdoing in following certain shameless styles like so many sheep. They certainly would blush if they could guess the impression they make and the feelings they evoke in those who see them." 3
    Today, unfortunately, there does not seem to be much of that healthful blushing to which the great Pope refers. Instead, one of the curious consequences of a society that denies the existence of Original Sin has been a naive ignorance of so many "good" Catholic young women regarding the effects that can result from their insistence on following immodest fashions.
    The battle to keep the passions in check is continual for both men and women, but it must be waged with particular vigilance by men. A woman cannot dress immodestly just to be in style and then say that if a man thinks immoral thoughts because of her, it's his problem, not hers. This attitude is rooted in the great lie of the Women's Liberation movement that men and women are equal. In fact there are great differences between men and women. The man by nature is more aggressive and wants to conquer, and his sensual reactions are stronger than that of the woman. If a woman is immodestly dressed, a man's inclinations more readily develop into desires, thoughts and actions of lust. Therefore, while the man has a moral obligation to "fight the good fight" against sins of the flesh by practicing a careful custody of the eyes and thoughts, a woman has a moral obligation not to dress in an immodest manner which would lead a man to sin.
    There is an especial distinction to make here. Woman by nature likes to adorn herself in order to be admired for her beauty, charm and elegance. This is not an evil in itself. A beautiful and charming girl or woman does not have the obligation to make herself ugly or dress in plain and uncomely clothing so that she will never run the risk of causing a sin. This puritanical type of thinking, which unfortunately has been adopted by some traditionalist Catholic women or our day is erroneous. There is nothing necessarily sinful or inappropriate in a women dressing exquisitely and femininely. It is this charm and beauty of femininity that adorns an authentically Catholic society.
    One of the most dominant errors that underlies today's revolutionary spirit in clothing is egalitarianism. This egalitarian revolution has stimulated a constant process to do away with almost all differences in sex and in age. The very notion is absurd, because these inequalities exist in nature itself.
    One factor that played a large role in the "feminist revolution" was women adopting the dress of men. That women should dress differently from men, as a symbol of their distinct roles in the home and society, is affirmed by Scripture: "A woman shall not be clothed in man's apparel ---- neither shall a man use a woman's apparel . . . such are abominable before God." [Deut. 22: 55] That is to say, clothing is not an indifferent topic or a simple matter of covering the body. I know many tradtionalists who have argued it is a matter of modesty that women should always wear skirts. I believe that this argument is faulty, since it can be claimed that at times modest and loose fitting trousers cover a woman's body more completely than do some fashionable skirts and dresses.
    However, there is a much more profound principle at stake here. The promoters of the feminist revolution encouraged women to abandon their traditional dress that emphasized the delicate and feminine aspect of women. In the name of efficiency, comfort, modernity ---- women donned the pants of men. Along with the trousers of men, in their tendencies, they came to take up the ways of being and sitting and walking of men.  They entered the workplace, joined the road crews, trained in the army, and even are invading the sanctuaries.
    The motive that impelled women to wear men's dress brought about a mental attitude of being "like a man." An ironic side note is that with this frantic attempt to be masculine instead of striving to perfect their femininity, women unconsciously admit a dissatisfaction with their womanhood and, ultimately, God's plan for creation. This unnatural imitation destroys the complementarity of the sexes, whereby the woman and man complete and fulfIll each other; instead it sets up a relationship of competition.
    This kind of erroneous and revolutionary way of thinking naturally found expression in clothing. The "pantsuit revolution" progressed to blue jeans, and has ended in the appearance of androgynous youth. Something more serious has occurred than the fact that the youth are dressed in the same clothing: the young woman's whole way of being appears to be almost more masculine than that of the young man.
    The primary reason I would encourage good-spirited reasoning women to always wear dresses is to fight this egalitarian urge that would level the sexes and smash any symbolic expression of the marvelous natural differences placed there by God. This is to concretely and heroically counter the egalitarian revolution that ultimately represents a tearing down of the human order established by God.
    Two Prophetic Warnings
    Already in June of 1960, Cardinal Giuseppe Siri of Genoa sent this discerning warning to his Diocesan priests about the increasing use of men's trousers by women and the foreboding dangers this represented. He begins the circular with these words: "The first sins of late arriving spring indicate that there is this year a certain increase in the use of men's dress by girls and women, even family mothers." He notes with a certain shock that it is no longer just the American women tourists who have begun to wear men's trousers in public, but his good Catholic Genoese women. It is not the issue of immodesty per se that most concerns him, but a graver threefold result: " First, the wearing of men's dress by women affects the woman herself, by changing the feminine psychology proper to women; second, it affects the woman as wife of her husband, by tending to vitiate relationships between the sexes; and third, it affects the woman as mother of her children by harming her dignity in her children's eyes . . . This changing of the feminine psychology does fundamental, and, in the long run, irreparable damage to the family, to conjugal fidelity, to human affections and to human society." 4
    Today we are witnesses of that "fundamental and irreparable damage" that the Cardinal warned would happen with the changing of the feminine psychology. In passing, I mention here a subject that could be analyzed in another article: In the trail of the masculinization of women came the feminization of men. As women usurped the headship of the family, relationships in the entire family were disoriented. Children were deprived of their natural role models and confusion followed. Both sexes suffered a loss of identity. At the university where I taught, I was constantly shocked to see how much effort and time was given over to the discussion of "what it means to be a man" and "what it means to be a woman." These would be moot points for these youths' grandparents, who would be amazed to see so much high level academic discussion about such evident first principles.
    Cardinal Siri also asked his priests to speak out on the topic of women dressing like men: "They must know they must never be so weak as to let anyone believe that they turn a blind eye to the custom which is slipping downhill and undermining the moral standing of all institutions." Their action to correct this fault should be "sharp and decisive." His words indicate that the fathers of families should also be alert to correcting this revolutionary custom.
    Cardinal Siri then invited those in the fashion industry to find suitable but dignified solutions as to clothing for women when they "must use a motorcycle or engage in this or that exercise or work." "What matters most," he quite judiciously observed, "is to preserve modesty along with the eternal sense of femininity. For that, good sense and good taste should always find acceptable and dignified solutions to problems as they come up." That very few dress designers or couturiers have accepted this invitation should not be a motive for discouragement for the present generations, but a challenge to take it up.
    A Revolutionary Process
    The revolution in women's clothing and the accompanying change of mentality was not some spectacular and isolated incident. It was a process that gradually rooted itself in the customs and then began to dominate the culture. Little by little, women and men became accustomed to increasingly immodest and revolutionary clothing trends.
    A very respectable lady whom I know gave me a trenchant example of the process at work: She said that when trousers for women began to be stylish, at first she resisted. They would be fine to wear at home, she decided, but never in public. A little later, she changed her mind: a nice slacks suit [the poly-
    ester pantsuit of the 60's] worn in public was not offensive, but women should never wear trousers to Mass. Just a little later, it didn't seem so horrible to wear a pair of modest, tailored slacks to Mass ---- it was certainly better than tthe short skirts that had become the fashion of the moment. The door opened an inch, and it wasn't long before it was wide open . . .
    How much responsibility do we bear for the indecent and immodest trends and androgynous fashions of the day? It seems to me that the culpability belongs at least in part to the lethargic compliance of many Catholics to this revolutionary process that has completely transformed sound customs.
    When we consider the restoration of Christian Civilization, there is a tendency for serious Catholics today to turn almost strictly to the religious plane and one's personal prayer life to initiate this restoration. To pray another novena or add another devotion to the mandatory daily Rosary are excellent things and should always be encouraged. It is extremely important not to sin against chastity, to follow the Commandments, to read edifying religious books. But there is another true duty of the spiritual life that has been ignored: that is, to fight the bad customs, revolutionary clothing and ways of being -and especially the immodest and egalitarian clothing that make up a significant part of the total corruption of customs that Our Lady forewarned would dominate in our times.
    FOOTNOTES:
    1. The Sacred Congregation of the Council issued a letter in 1930 by the mandate of Pope Pius XI that included this prescription: "#9. Maidens and women dressed immodestly are to be debarred from Holy Communion . . . Further, if the offense be extreme, they may even be forbidden to enter the church." Donato, Cardinal Sbaretti, Prefect of the Cong. for the Council, Rome, January 12, 1930.
    2. Address to the Latin Union of High Fashion, November 8, 1957.
    3. Address to the International Congress of the Children of Mary Immaculate, July 17, 1954.
    4. Giuseppe Cardinal Siri, Notification concerning Men's Dress Worn by Women, Genoa, June 12, 1960.
    [Reprinted from the December 2000 and January 2001 Issues of Catholic Family News.]
     
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    Offline gilbertgea

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    Offline Mousey

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    Women wearing men's clothing
    « Reply #2 on: December 11, 2007, 07:23:19 PM »
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  • Oh, but you can't say such things in other forums (need I mention them) and be considered anything but a rebel, deliberately aiming to inflame those who aspire to be comfortable and fashionable above modest.  Anyway, modesty is subjective to them, as having the objective view of concealing the form of one's body is just "prudish" to them.

    But I agree with Cardinal Siri and the Church Fathers on this.

    The following I got from the back of a gorgeous holy card.  The Holy Card, of St. John Chrysostom, I got at a traditional Carmelite convent:

    WOMEN'S DRESS

    "You carry your snare everywhere and spread your nets in all places.  You allege that you never invited others to sin.  You did not, indeed, by your words, but you have done so by your dress and your deportment and much more effectively than you could by your voice.  When you have made another sin in his heart, how can you be innocent?  Tell me, whom does this world condemn?  Who do judges in court punish?  Those who drink poison or those who prepare it and administer the fatal potion?  You have prepared the abominable cup, you have given the death-dealing drink, and you are more criminal than are those who poison the body;  you murder not the body but the soul.  And it is not to enemies you do this, nor are you urged on by any imaginary necessity, nor provoked by injury, but out of foolish vanity and pride."

    -- St. John Chrysostom

    Offline JoanScholastica

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    Women wearing men's clothing
    « Reply #3 on: December 13, 2007, 03:06:27 AM »
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  • Quote from: Mousey

    WOMEN'S DRESS

    "You carry your snare everywhere and spread your nets in all places.  You allege that you never invited others to sin.  You did not, indeed, by your words, but you have done so by your dress and your deportment and much more effectively than you could by your voice.  When you have made another sin in his heart, how can you be innocent?  Tell me, whom does this world condemn?  Who do judges in court punish?  Those who drink poison or those who prepare it and administer the fatal potion?  You have prepared the abominable cup, you have given the death-dealing drink, and you are more criminal than are those who poison the body;  you murder not the body but the soul.  And it is not to enemies you do this, nor are you urged on by any imaginary necessity, nor provoked by injury, but out of foolish vanity and pride."

    -- St. John Chrysostom


    Indeed, Mousey! Oh, if you only knew what happened during the past month! We had a heated debate due to women wearing trousers. Some were against it and others were not.

    Offline lefebvre_fan

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    Women wearing men's clothing
    « Reply #4 on: December 13, 2007, 07:34:10 AM »
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  • Quote
    WOMEN'S DRESS

    "You carry your snare everywhere and spread your nets in all places.  You allege that you never invited others to sin.  You did not, indeed, by your words, but you have done so by your dress and your deportment and much more effectively than you could by your voice.  When you have made another sin in his heart, how can you be innocent?  Tell me, whom does this world condemn?  Who do judges in court punish?  Those who drink poison or those who prepare it and administer the fatal potion?  You have prepared the abominable cup, you have given the death-dealing drink, and you are more criminal than are those who poison the body;  you murder not the body but the soul.  And it is not to enemies you do this, nor are you urged on by any imaginary necessity, nor provoked by injury, but out of foolish vanity and pride."

    -- St. John Chrysostom


    Indeed, great wisdom from one of the Early Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church!
    "The Catholic Church is the only thing which saves a man from the degrading slavery of being a child of his age."--G. K. Chesterton


    Offline Mousey

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    Women wearing men's clothing
    « Reply #5 on: December 13, 2007, 07:46:48 PM »
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    Oh Joan,
    I think I have some idea of what you went through.

    I am "Ancilla Indigna" as on Fisheaters.  As a private joke to a friend, I posted "long skirts" as a topic, with nothing else in the subject except that it was a dare.  I figured everyone would get a good laugh about that, even at themselves-- regardless of how they thought about the subject.  I assumed that everyone meant well, even if they were misguided a little on the subject, that underneath it all, would see that there was no need to fight.  And guess what?  I got accused of trying to provoke a fight.  Awful attacks were made on my person (which only made me feel bad for the website, not for myself because I don't regard what anyone thinks of me except God and the Blessed Mother), and more attacks on at least one other person trying to defend women dressing like women.  I felt badly for the site because the viscious personal attacks these enemies of modesty made gave the site a very bad image.  (Ironically, I thought, before this, that it had cleaned up its act, and even recommended it to a few friends.)   My friends saw it and were horrified at how badly the friends of the site owners acted, and then the site owner.   How terrible that they formed their little clique to be bullies against people who defend modest dress and piety*.  (I was also compared to a Pharisee for carrying my rosary wrapped around my hand with the cross in my palm after I've prayed it and I'm running errands.)

    I used to dress a lot differently, and personally,  I wanted to really give them the benefit of the doubt, besides the fact that it is how we are supposed to think (give people the benefit of the doubt rather than to judge their interior by what they know or don't know and their intentions).  But a few of them (and there are those among them that have befriended these few, and just for the moment don't know any better, God bless them), that have an outright disdain for modesty, or portend to adhere to modesty, but then post an immodest portrait of what is supposed to be the Blessed Virgin Mother -- Virgin Most Prudent and Most Chaste!  

    Perhaps at least one of them may start a traditional cloister of nuns who wear pants.  (I highly doubt it, though.)  Where will they ever find such an existing cloister?  

    But this is a sign of graver issues that even immodesty -- to attack the purity of the Blessed Mother (that she would will to be carelessly exposed in the private act of nursing the child Jesus), to have a lack of regard for the teachings of the Church Fathers, and to have so much hatred and no peace  and even to the point of displaying public distrust and even malice towards anothers pious acts -- these are from the devil.  

    They don't know this, but while they thought they were alienating me, they were really alienating themselves to themselves.  I know plenty of people from my own community that have a disgust for the site, and others who are friends of mine now also have a no respect for the site owners and their little group of friends.  It is a shame that they dishonor the faith, especially in the holy name of Catholic tradition.




    Offline Adesto

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    Women wearing men's clothing
    « Reply #6 on: December 14, 2007, 08:26:58 AM »
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  •  
    Quote
    As a private joke to a friend, I posted "long skirts" as a topic, with nothing else in the subject except that it was a dare.  I figured everyone would get a good laugh about that, even at themselves-- regardless of how they thought about the subject.


    That's a shame, Mousey. Its a great difficulty on these forums for anyone to detect irony or humour through the medium of small, brief messages, as it is awfully difficult when communication is reduced to posting. Perhaps the problem was that you posted a private joke on a public forum? Arguments can get very heated and I've found its best to avoid anything but the most open and unambiguous statements.


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    Offline erin is nice

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    « Reply #7 on: December 14, 2007, 09:46:09 AM »
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  • "mousey", almost all of us read over there, and we know you are lying.  no one attacked our Blessed Mother in any way shape or form.   you picked fights there again and again, just so you could gossip about how "evil" FE is in other forums.

    That's far worse than any pair of pants.


    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #8 on: December 14, 2007, 09:50:34 AM »
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  • Quote from: erin is nice
    "mousey", almost all of us read over there, and we know you are lying.  no one attacked our Blessed Mother in any way shape or form.   you picked fights there again and again


    I doubt that is that case.

    I've been accused of many of the same things on FE, and I know that I was/am innocent -- so I am inclined to give Mousey the benefit on the doubt in this case.

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    Offline Mousey

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    « Reply #9 on: December 14, 2007, 04:31:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: Adesto
    Perhaps the problem was that you posted a private joke on a public forum? Arguments can get very heated and I've found its best to avoid anything but the most open and unambiguous statements.



    What prompted me was a private joke.  The fact that I posted "long skirts" was merely what I stated it was.  There is absolutely NO POSSIBLE WAY anyone can convince me that posting "long skirts" could be seen as provocative and inflammatory.  The fact that I was vague by merely posting "long skirts" and no issue regarding them does not demonstrate within reason any malice whatsover.  Not only that, if I HAD been specific, they would have justified their attacks against me.  (They did so over my carrying privately my rosary!)  If I had said (something specific) such as, "I like long skirts", they would have said and done the same thing.  (Taking a subject seriously is a lot different than taking yourself seriously.  I have strong personal opinions about modesty, but I don't condemn people who object, and at the same time, I don't take myself seriously.  And, if people object, I don't take that personally, either.)  They showed themselves for their true colors, and accused me of their own sins.  There was no "argument" by me and there is nothing inflammatory about anything I posted --- to say otherwise is a sin against truth.


    Erin:  I have sent you a link to prove to you that there are several regulars on FE who run the show there and posted immodest depictions of the Blessed Mother, as I am not about to post the link publicly here.   If you want and Chant approves, we can take the discussion of the grave sin of depicting the Blessed Virgin Mother immodestly  to another thread.  Or we can discuss it privately, whichever you prefer.  Also, I can point out other links FE posted that were re.: the Blessed Mother and were writings by gnostics that FE has posted as if they are Catholic teaching.

    And let me emphasize this point:  This thread is about modesty.  You're not going to get a little bandwagon started with the likes of Chant.

    Modesty is a virtue.   Chant didn't just write all that about modesty because he thought it was just his good opinion.  You won't likely find people here looking to antagonize and attack those who defend modest dress and deportment.

    By the way, why aren't you accusing Chant of "starting fights"?  He wrote a heck of a lot more than "long skirts" in this thread.  He even sounds like he might sometimes carry a rosary, and even wear a sacramental or two.  
    Erin, it is understandable to want to defend the reputation of one's friends, but not if the friends in question are defending something that endangers souls and depicts the Blessed Mother in a way that is not befitting her dignity.  I'm not posting here intending to make you angry, and I'm even sorry if unintentionally I offended you, but  I am happy to read things like what Chant and Jean have been posting, especially about modesty and purity.   People are simply not able to say as much about modesty on FE as they can here.

    *Edit:  And "erin", there is no gossip when someone writes publicly about something that is already public.  (Ad hominen attempt #332 nixed.)  

    Offline JoanScholastica

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    « Reply #10 on: December 15, 2007, 05:11:29 PM »
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  • Offline Adesto

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    « Reply #11 on: December 15, 2007, 05:29:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: JoanScholastica
    Quote from: Adesto
    Its a great difficulty on these forums for anyone to detect irony or humour through the medium of small, brief messages, as it is awfully difficult when communication is reduced to posting.


    Though that's true enough but what could have been insulting on posting just "long skirts"? Any right minded person who's against that could have simply ignored it since there's no worth of debating there as the topic starter didn't say anything about it. It's safe to say that the poster was just experimenting. Whether it be rudely or nicely, we can't judge it. Thus, people should keep their minds sane. One could always talk nicely but determined in a way that it wouldn't be treating personal attacks.



    I haven't read any of what you're discussing, so I ain't commenting on what the topic was about or the rights or wrongs of it. :detective:

    I'm just saying that the net can be a very dodgy medium and misunderstandings can quickly arise, especially when tensions run high a lot of the time.

    People forming little cliques over issues like modesty is quite silly. My views on dress are irrelevant when it comes to my views on literature, or music, or ecclesiastical practices, or whatever. I have strongly disagreed with some people on here on their views about dress,for example, while I have admired their clarity and eloquence on other subjects such as sedevacantism, even though in certain debates the discussions have become very heated. We should all have the ability and the desire to put those debates behind us; after all, while I may fight ferociously over an issue I take a strong stance on for a while, I don't have the energy nor the interest to hold grudges against someone I don't even know because of it. Forgive me for sounding didactic, but sometimes we all (myself included) need to move on from old arguments.

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    Offline Mousey

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    « Reply #12 on: December 15, 2007, 05:52:28 PM »
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    Well, I don't believe people should have grudges at all.  I don't hold a personal grudge against anyone on FE anymore than I hold a grudge against Hillary or Obama or Cardinal Mahoney, for that matter.

    It's has become more evident to me that people who post supporting modesty, purity or piety in any way (or might have the reputation for these things) on FE are attacked ad hominem.  I've even received messages from other readers thanking me for sticking to my guns when I was attacked for what was obviously nothing to do with me personally (although they always tried to make it appear that way).  These were people that also supported modest dress but were afraid (literally) to voice their opinion on FE because they didn't want to be personally attacked on the forums.  

    I don't believe in backing down from false accusations when the issue about falsely representing traditional Catholic morality.  

    It's interesting to point out, I think, that when I've posted in the FE forum about men's modesty, I was able to be a LOT more open about my opinion without being personally attacked.  I just have to show up in one of their threads about modesty and women, and it's all guns blazing.

    Offline erin is nice

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    Women wearing men's clothing
    « Reply #13 on: December 15, 2007, 05:58:11 PM »
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  • I have seen many beautiful paintings of our Blessed Mother posted on FE, and I don't have any idea of what you're going on about.  Please enlighten me if you get a chance.

    Offline erin is nice

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    « Reply #14 on: December 15, 2007, 06:00:13 PM »
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  • Sorry, I just now saw what you were talking about.  I think those paintings are absolutely beautiful and there is nothing inappropriate in them.