Church teaching recognizes that a woman may be compelled by necessity to be outside the home and that her husband may permit this.  While the ideal is for women to be at home, it is not as absolute as you were making it sound.

I realize there are exceptions, such as if the husband becomes unable to work. But as long as the husband is able to work and has a job, the woman's role is at home.

Women are not all the same. They have character and temperament just like men, and some women operate better outside of the physical structure of a home. There is a way to balance their desires with the requirements of benefit to family and society. Women and men should be home-centered.

You, sir, are a feminist, and I don't care how many liberals thumb me down for saying it. The Church has never said that women can work outside the home based upon their social needs or desires. A woman who puts her desires ahead of the needs of her children is a selfish mother. What you're espousing is a Vatican II mindset.

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

That is not a Catholic mindset. What you just wrote is extremely dangerous, not to mention false. The woman's place is at home PERIOD. The Catechism of the Council of Trent stated this specifically. You should look up what the Church teaches before just writing your opinion.

You're overplaying your hand, as has already been established. Let's be clear, everyone's place is the home. The fact that men have to leave home for 8 to 10 or more hours per day to work is probably just as destructive to the family as mothers doing the same. Distant fathers is a proven contributor to same-sex attraction, for instance. And we needn't recite fully the complaints about dads coming home and expecting to be waited on hand and foot, and contributing little to rearing of the children because that isn't his "territory." It is an overly dichotomous view of home life. The fact that we think the place of the woman is in the home "period," but the man apparently is a globe-trotter is just wrong because it still drive a wedge between the man and the woman, as does the view that both are globe-trotters. Some men may be called to those responsibilities far from home or for long spans of time, but that is not the norm. The clear paradigm is man on the land (breadwinning), and woman with the children. Up to marriage it seems quite reasonable that there could be great latitude in their ability to cultivate skills outside of their parent's home. There are certain things which are proven situations which are good for humanity, like maintaining family homes instead of people single in apartments, but all these circuмstances are not sinful. A former boss of mine was over 40 and single. I can't fault her for wanting to have her own home, but she still is closely tied to her parents and sister, who live near-by. She's not under a man, and that is fine because she isn't trying to break down families. It was just an accident of her life.

I am not going to press this, but I wonder how many of these comments come from people married or who have grown female children. I am not saying you need to have these things to know, but some comments seem to be dictated from a sort of idealistic view with no regard for the reality of woman being actual humans and not abstract concepts. Women are not all the same. They have character and temperament just like men, and some women operate better outside of the physical structure of a home. There is a way to balance their desires with the requirements of benefit to family and society. Women and men should be home-centered.

There are reasons women might have to work outside the home. As an unwed mother, I have no choice.  Additionally the world still needs midwives and secretaries etc. but ideally these positions are either based out of the home, or they are held by single women or married women with grown children.  A wife/mother should be at home.  A good wife will take it as her job to stretch her husband's income by being a frugal manager of the home and supporting his career, whatever that may be.  

This idea that some women operate better outside the home is however, a feminist belief. A woman who says that she is a better person when she works outside the home is prioritizing her own temperament and desires above Catholic teaching about the structure of the family.  

No, I am not married and do not have grown children.  I have just come to believe (as a woman who has fallen hard and is trying to get back up) that significantly extending female adolescence is bad for women spiritually and bad for society in general.  We have gotten to the point where there are years and years (if not decades) between the time a young lady is matured and ready to leave her parents home, and the time she decides she has lived enough and is ready to start a family.  Why would God design women and their fertility the way he does if we were not meant to marry young, but are instead better off adding "filler" through college, career development, and extra time for corruption of moral purity?  These things have been shown as harmful towards Catholic marriage, so why promote them?

This idea that some women operate better outside the home is however, a feminist belief. A woman who says that she is a better person when she works outside the home is prioritizing her own temperament and desires above Catholic teaching about the structure of the family.  

I am an example of a woman who is not temperamentally suited to being a stay at home mom.  I am an introvert who functions best with lots of silence and alone time.  I don't like physical contact with people, am uncomfortable with emotions and have trouble dealing with interruptions or changes to my routine.  

I have no regrets that I stayed home with my children rather than fulfilling my temperament.  Being a mom does not come easily to me so I have faced constant struggle and failure.  And that is exactly what I needed.  Also part of my temperament is a tendency to be arrogant and impatient.   I needed to be forced to turn to God.  I needed to be humbled.  I did not need to encourage my temperament but to grow beyond it.  I still have the same character flaws but I do not think I could have made any progress in overcoming them if I had not accepted the challenge of staying home.  I might have become even worse.

Im also bothered when I work out at the local gym by my house. Since when did women lift weights? I don't get it.

I don't have a problem with women strength training. A woman's hormones will not allow her to get that "little man" look. The women who look like that are lifting for a long time each day and taking steroids.  IMO there is nothing unfeminine about strenth training as part of fitness. As you get older you loose muscle, some resistance training helps you keep muscle.
I strength train, and I'm nowhere close to having that body builder look as a 3x, LOL.  I do free weights and I attend an aquatic fitness class where we use water weights.
I don't agree with doing a bikini competition but I don't see how performing weight lifting exercises as part of fitness is intrinsically unfeminine.

Quote from: Jaynek

Quote from: Traditional Guy 20

I see nothing wrong with a woman's basketball team as long as women are on it only but football, baseball, and boxing, along with weight-lifting are definitely masculine. You think that a woman can deal with that sort of exercise? Not to mention that the gender roles should not be interchangeable. That is a Frankfurt School theory.

After researching which exercises would give me the greatest health benefits, I concluded that my fitness routine should include weight lifting.  I have bench pressed over 100 pounds.  I can dead lift at that weight too.  This might not be as much as a man lifts, but it is a significant amount and I can deal with it just fine.

I have not gotten bulky or masculine looking. It gives me firm toned muscles that are not even noticeable in the modest clothing that I habitually wear.  My husband, however, notices and is pleased.  I would expect just about any man (including "real men") to appreciate a healthy physique in his wife.

I appreciate that exercise gives me more strength and energy to apply to my duties as wife and mother.  As well as weight lifting, my fitness routine includes Pilates, walking and cycling.

Where I workout the weight room is full with plus sized grandmas. The last time I saw a woman that looked like a  muscular "little man" was at a Ladies Gym a few years ago. Her voice was low and I'm sure she took steroids.

see it a lot, all types, some biker looking, some big gals, some one has to divert ones eyes from.......starting to like the idea of men-only gyms, a lot less fluff and no temptations, at least, from normal, militant straight guys......

Quote from: Graham

Longterm strength training will raise your basal testosterone, and you may tend to be more aggressive as a result. You've probably considered this though.

A natural increase in testosterone from exercise is not likely to cause more aggressiveness than I can control.  It has the benefit of giving more energy which is something I really need.

Well, I'm not talking about momentary spurts of anger, the issue would be becoming a basically more masculine woman over time without noticing it. It is part of the basic issue with women going into manly sports like football or strength training.

You, sir, are a feminist, and I don't care how many liberals thumb me down for saying it. The Church has never said that women can work outside the home based upon their social needs or desires. A woman who puts her desires ahead of the needs of her children is a selfish mother. What you're espousing is a Vatican II mindset.

...

This idea that some women operate better outside the home is however, a feminist belief. A woman who says that she is a better person when she works outside the home is prioritizing her own temperament and desires above Catholic teaching about the structure of the family.  

I don't recall saying those things. You are reading into what I said. I never presented a woman working outside of the home in neglect of her children. Please read my posts and you'll see that. Furthermore, I said both men and women should (ideally) be home. The fact that nuns were out teaching in schools shows that women were not bound to the four walls of their home. Any occupation of married women which draws them away from their children, without serious need, I would consider immoral and should be corrected ASAP. As for women without children, I don't see compelling teaching that these women are bound to work only in the home. The Church does not teach that either. Think about midwives and the many occupations women did which were out and about. Lastly, I don't recall VII saying anything women being liberated from the home, putting her desires over the children's, unless I missed that. My mindset is thoroughly Catholic, and if I am shown to be out of step with the Church, or secular data shows that certain things are destructive to Christ's ends, then I will adjust accordingly.

I have just come to believe (as a woman who has fallen hard and is trying to get back up) that significantly extending female adolescence is bad for women spiritually and bad for society in general.  We have gotten to the point where there are years and years (if not decades) between the time a young lady is matured and ready to leave her parents home, and the time she decides she has lived enough and is ready to start a family.  Why would God design women and their fertility the way he does if we were not meant to marry young, but are instead better off adding "filler" through college, career development, and extra time for corruption of moral purity?  These things have been shown as harmful towards Catholic marriage, so why promote them?

I don't see the connection between a single woman working and/or going to college, and the current trend to delay marriage and family. I know a wonderful trad couple that is getting married soon. The young lady (19 years old) will eventually stop school and work as they transfer into a family. I think that a lot of this has to do with how one is raised, and the priorities taught to them about life. Obviously some people don't find mates, but others sit on their hands and date, or worse co-habitate, and put off marriage and kids. I am not for this. And I simply think that a work life outside the house has no real connection to that trend. Men have this trend even more. I think it is about maturity and about setting clear priorities in life. The minute I found my wife, we got married in less than six months. Some may say that is rash, but my priest approved (he knew us both), and I didn't see any need to waste time. Catholics who are serious about loving God and doing His will don't have the conflict you're talking about. I think it is rooted deeper. A lot these issues with women and the home are solved when you solve the major issue of what you believe. I think most women actually want to settle at home with a family, so that solves most of the problem there.

Quote from: PenitentWoman

You, sir, are a feminist, and I don't care how many liberals thumb me down for saying it. The Church has never said that women can work outside the home based upon their social needs or desires. A woman who puts her desires ahead of the needs of her children is a selfish mother. What you're espousing is a Vatican II mindset.

...

This idea that some women operate better outside the home is however, a feminist belief. A woman who says that she is a better person when she works outside the home is prioritizing her own temperament and desires above Catholic teaching about the structure of the family.  

I don't recall saying those things. You are reading into what I said. I never presented a woman working outside of the home in neglect of her children. Please read my posts and you'll see that. Furthermore, I said both men and women should (ideally) be home. The fact that nuns were out teaching in schools shows that women were not bound to the four walls of their home. Any occupation of married women which draws them away from their children, without serious need, I would consider immoral and should be corrected ASAP. As for women without children, I don't see compelling teaching that these women are bound to work only in the home. The Church does not teach that either. Think about midwives and the many occupations women did which were out and about. Lastly, I don't recall VII saying anything women being liberated from the home, putting her desires over the children's, unless I missed that. My mindset is thoroughly Catholic, and if I am shown to be out of step with the Church, or secular data shows that certain things are destructive to Christ's ends, then I will adjust accordingly.

Quote from: PenitentWoman

I have just come to believe (as a woman who has fallen hard and is trying to get back up) that significantly extending female adolescence is bad for women spiritually and bad for society in general.  We have gotten to the point where there are years and years (if not decades) between the time a young lady is matured and ready to leave her parents home, and the time she decides she has lived enough and is ready to start a family.  Why would God design women and their fertility the way he does if we were not meant to marry young, but are instead better off adding "filler" through college, career development, and extra time for corruption of moral purity?  These things have been shown as harmful towards Catholic marriage, so why promote them?

I don't see the connection between a single woman working and/or going to college, and the current trend to delay marriage and family. I know a wonderful trad couple that is getting married soon. The young lady (19 years old) will eventually stop school and work as they transfer into a family. I think that a lot of this has to do with how one is raised, and the priorities taught to them about life. Obviously some people don't find mates, but others sit on their hands and date, or worse co-habitate, and put off marriage and kids. I am not for this. And I simply think that a work life outside the house has no real connection to that trend. Men have this trend even more. I think it is about maturity and about setting clear priorities in life. The minute I found my wife, we got married in less than six months. Some may say that is rash, but my priest approved (he knew us both), and I didn't see any need to waste time. Catholics who are serious about loving God and doing His will don't have the conflict you're talking about. I think it is rooted deeper. A lot these issues with women and the home are solved when you solve the major issue of what you believe. I think most women actually want to settle at home with a family, so that solves most of the problem there.

I would like to kindly point out that you misquoted me in the first quote. That first paragraph is not mine.