Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: GiuseppeMichelePoli on April 27, 2018, 07:22:13 PM
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Who struggles more with lust and impurity according to the saints and the Church men or women? Which sex is stronger when it comes to fighting lust?
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Those are two different questions.
Men certainly struggle more with it. As to who's stronger, well, you only get strong against it by ... having to struggle with it and fight against it. I imagine that if a woman who was not used to resisting such temptations were suddenly placed in a man's body, she'd have a harder time resisting the same temptations ... because she's not used to fighting against them. But only God knows really.
This obviously varies from individual to individual ... so this is just a gross generalization.
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With God, all things are possible.
The Blessed Virgin Mary is a model of chastity and so is St. Nicholas of Myra (popularly known as Santa Claus).
St. Mary of Egypt was a prostitute who overcame her lustful urges by retiring into the desert where she fought her passions through prayer, fasting, and denying herself any human comforts. Even her clothing rotted on her back, and her long hair was her only covering, so that a priest-monk gave her his outer robe to clothe her nakedness.
St. Thomas Aquinas fought against impurity. When an impure woman was sent tempt him, he chased her away with a hot poker from the fireplace.
Impure women will tempt men as prostitution is one of the world's earliest professions.
However, impure men have been known to rape nuns who dress modestly and who keep their eyes cast down.
Without prayer, fasting, and faith in God, we are powerless over our sɛҳuąƖ urges.
Prayer to the saints is particularly helpful in overcoming impurity.
For our children, it is imperative that we teach them to be prayerful and modest by our loving example. If we do not pray and fast they will not pray and fast. If we wear immodest clothing, they will too.
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Without prayer, fasting, and faith in God, we are powerless over our sɛҳuąƖ urges.
Your post was mostly good, but this is an exaggeration. Perhaps "there are no guarantees" would be true. But powerless? That depends on how much natural virtue we have built up.
There is such a thing as "natural virtue" -- which even pagans can develop.
There is a story about a Catholic writer in the early 1900's who was travelling on a large ship, I forgot where.
He went out on the deck to have his usual cigar, where he met a Muslim man. He made some small talk to the Muslim, something along the lines of, "gotta have my cigar!"
The Muslim replied, "I refrain from tobacco for the love of Allah."
The writer was so taken aback, shocked, and disgusted with himself -- "here's this pagan, with no knowledge of the true Faith, the true God, no help from the Sacraments, never nourished by the Body of Christ and he manages to abstain better than I, who have received much more graces and have more incentive to abstain."
Angry with himself, he cut up the cigar and threw it into the ocean. He decided to give up smoking.
I might have some of the details off, but I remember that story. It's a real lesson about pagans and natural virtue. Sometimes the pagans "show us up" and out-perform us in this or that virtue. Even though they act for purely natural reasons, and we have the motivation of Heaven and the example of all the saints!
St. Paul also discussed this in his Epistles. He spoke about athletes giving up many things, and practicing a lot of mortification, for the sake of a perishable crown -- but we as Catholics work for an imperishable one -- we should be working even harder than those Olympic athletes!
Think of all the liberals and "vegans" who eat no meat ever, not even fish, for years on end -- for the planet, for Mother Earth, to be a good eco-citizen, to be nice to animals, etc.
While some Catholics whine every Friday they can't have meat :)
The list of examples is endless.
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Your post was mostly good, but this is an exaggeration. Perhaps "there are no guarantees" would be true. But powerless? That depends on how much natural virtue we have built up.
There is such a thing as "natural virtue" -- which even pagans can develop.
There is a story about a Catholic writer in the early 1900's who was travelling on a large ship, I forgot where.
He went out on the deck to have his usual cigar, where he met a Muslim man. He made some small talk to the Muslim, something along the lines of, "gotta have my cigar!"
The Muslim replied, "I refrain from tobacco for the love of Allah."
The writer was so taken aback, shocked, and disgusted with himself -- "here's this pagan, with no knowledge of the true Faith, the true God, no help from the Sacraments, never nourished by the Body of Christ and he manages to abstain better than I, who have received much more graces and have more incentive to abstain."
Angry with himself, he cut up the cigar and threw it into the ocean. He decided to give up smoking.
I might have some of the details off, but I remember that story. It's a real lesson about pagans and natural virtue. Sometimes the pagans "show us up" and out-perform us in this or that virtue. Even though they act for purely natural reasons, and we have the motivation of Heaven and the example of all the saints!
St. Paul also discussed this in his Epistles. He spoke about athletes giving up many things, and practicing a lot of mortification, for the sake of a perishable crown -- but we as Catholics work for an imperishable one -- we should be working even harder than those Olympic athletes!
Think of all the liberals and "vegans" who eat no meat ever, not even fish, for years on end -- for the planet, for Mother Earth, to be a good eco-citizen, to be nice to animals, etc.
While some Catholics whine every Friday they can't have meat :)
The list of examples is endless.
In their pride, Muslims can boast that they give up alcohol and tobacco for the love of Allah. They can also boast that they say prayers and make prostrations five times a day, which would put most Catholics to shame. Indeed, they can also boast that they fast from sunrise to sundown during their fasting times, but don't they stuff themselves from sundown to sunrise so that they can endure the fast during the daytime? Doesn't this show hypocrisy?
Nevertheless, few Muslims have control over their sɛҳuąƖ passions. Otherwise, why would most Muslims demand that their women wear veils and shoe length robes, and keep their eyes cast down, so as not to flirt or to tempt men.
Then, too, look at our monastics. Do not the Dominican friars pray the Divine Office SEVEN times a day, and do not our traditional friars, brothers, and nuns make prostrations multiple times during the day and night? Look at the Melkite Eastern Catholics who during Great Lent, even the laity make many prostrations during the Pre-Sanctified Liturgy, every time the Lenten Prayer of St. Ephreim is recited. And are not the Melkites encouraged to make prostrations at home whenever they pray?
Do you realize that all of the Muslim practices have been copied from Jews and Christians who existed centuries before the Islamic religion was created and revealed to Mohammed by the angel of light (Satan)?
Finally, I must ask, who is Allah? Isn't he Satan? So, what does it profit a Muslim to abstain from alcohol and tobacco, to pray five times a day, and to fast during the daytime. They are not giving honor to God, but to Satan.
Muslim will not be saved unless they receive a special grace from God, and praise the Lord, this is happening as I know Muslims who have converted to Christ.
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The Pharisees also performed many acts of natural virtue, but there was no supernatural motivation (charity, or the love of God).
Sometimes hypocrisy enters in to it. But ultimately, they do it either for selfish or for "altruistic" or "philanthropic" reasons. Natural virtue does exist though.
But it goes without saying that natural virtue isn't sufficient to get to heaven. That's not what I'm saying at all.
There are certainly pagans who have mastered various appetites and desires, including the sɛҳuąƖ appetite. Any muscle or virtue can be made stronger by repeated use.
Haven't you ever met atheists, pagans, non-religious persons who put Catholics to shame in this or that area? Everyone has. That's what I'm talking about: natural virtue. It's not going to save them, but it does exist.
Long story short, it is sad but true that some liberal "vegans" (motivated by their love for "mother earth") gladly give up meat for years on end, but many Trad Catholics don't love God enough to give up meat with a cheerful heart every Friday.
Some pagans are complete hypocrites, like the Muslim fast during Ramadan (they pig out after sunset), so that's actually not a good example. There are plenty of examples where the virtue is genuine, motivated by a love for themselves, their fellow man, the environment, mother earth, future generations, etc. In short, 100% natural motivation.
I'm sure that God, being just, will give them a NATURAL reward (on this earth) for the natural virtues they practiced.
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Haven't you ever met atheists, pagans, non-religious persons who put Catholics to shame in this or that area? Everyone has. That's what I'm talking about: natural virtue. It's not going to save them, but it does exist.
Yes, Natural virtue does exist. However, what does it profit a man to abstain from tobacco, alcohol, and sex if he will go to hell because he does not know, love, and serve God?
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Your post was mostly good, but this is an exaggeration. Perhaps "there are no guarantees" would be true. But powerless? That depends on how much natural virtue we have built up.
"By the Holy Spirit, every soul is quickened [Baptism and Confirmation], and by cleansing exalted made radiant [Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Confession, and Holy Communion] by the Triune Godhead, in mysterious [sacramental] manner." -- sanctifying grace
"By the Holy Spirit, the streams of grace pour forth, watering all the earth, that it may be fruitful." [Actual grace shines on all people].
These two verses are taken from the Supplicatory Canon to the Most Holy Virgin Mary.
Yes, actual grace shines on all people, and it guides, but it does not save. Only sanctifying grace purifies, illuminates, and sanctifies souls, so that they may enter the heavenly gates leading to paradise.
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Yes, Natural virtue does exist. However, what does it profit a man to abstain from tobacco, alcohol, and sex if he will go to hell because he does not know, love, and serve God?
Stop putting words in his mouth. All he was saying is that natural virtue exists, not that it saves you.
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Yes, Maria Regina, you seem to be arguing with a phantom here. Has anyone in this thread said or suggested that pagans practicing natural virtue will -- or even might -- be saved?
Either you're arguing with nobody in this thread, or you're putting some serious words in my mouth, which contradict things I've actually said here!
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Also remember that grace builds on nature. All of us can be naturally good because the natural law is on EVERY man’s heart and actual grace is available to EVERYONE. And since God wants EVERYONE to be saved, it means those who are trying to follow the 10 Commandments, and trying to cooperate with grace, have a good chance of conversion because cooperation with grace will lead to the Truth and Catholicism.
16 (http://biblehub.com/john/10-16.htm)And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd. (John 10)
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Whilst feminists endlessly seek to disrespect femininity and sɛҳuąƖise women I simply do not believe that normal natural and Godly women struggle with lust in the way the average man does.
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Whilst feminists endlessly seek to disrespect femininity and sɛҳuąƖise women I simply do not believe that normal natural and Godly women struggle with lust in the way the average man does.
And yet, it seems God placed that curse upon the woman from the very beginning in the garden.
Regardless who "lusts" more, it certainly takes two to tango as they say;
16To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you.-Gen 3:16
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Yes, Maria Regina, you seem to be arguing with a phantom here. Has anyone in this thread said or suggested that pagans practicing natural virtue will -- or even might -- be saved?
Either you're arguing with nobody in this thread, or you're putting some serious words in my mouth, which contradict things I've actually said here!
I am sorry if you have misconstrued what I have written. I only wanted to emphasize that I am not a pelagianist nor a semi-pelagianist.
Contrary to what Francis teaches and to what is taught in the CCC, I believe what the Apostles and the Holy Church have always taught, namely that Jews, Muslims, pagans, atheists, heretics, schismatics, and those who practice Eastern religions such as Buddhists cannot be saved, unless they convert, repent, are baptized, and/or receive absolution.
There has been a dangerous rise in Pelagianism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagianism) and in semi-pelagianism today. Francis seems to be of that mind. When I was at Holy Names College, our Dominican professors warned us about this heresy, and urged us to pray always that we might be saved.
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And yet, it seems God placed that curse upon the woman from the very beginning in the garden.
Regardless who "lusts" more, it certainly takes two to tango as they say;
16To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you.-Gen 3:16
That curse upon the woman has little to do with lust. Women have other faults which include pride, vanity and attention seeking. That doesn't necessarily make them lustful by nature. Man is more predisposed to lust than woman.
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That curse upon the woman has little to do with lust. Women have other faults which include pride, vanity and attention seeking. That doesn't necessarily make them lustful by nature. Man is more predisposed to lust than woman.
This is a relatively recent idea. Historically in the West, women were seen as the ones more prone to lust. Wikipedia puts it this way:
Medieval women were assumed to be far more insatiable than men and a woman’s lust would have been considered her ultimate sin. She was believed to receive far more pleasure from a sɛҳuąƖ encounter than men and reach her sɛҳuąƖ readiness far earlier than men. Perceived as more sɛҳuąƖly mature than males, women were expected to conduct themselves to higher standards than men, leading to a double standard of sɛҳuąƖ morality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_female_sɛҳuąƖity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_female_sɛҳuąƖity)
One can see this perception illustrated in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales.
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This is a relatively recent idea. Historically in the West, women were seen as the ones more prone to lust. Wikipedia puts it this way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_female_sɛҳuąƖity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_female_sɛҳuąƖity)
One can see this perception illustrated in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales.
Indeed, read the Old Testament book of Proverbs, which warns men of lustful women.
One must also ask about the "Chastity belt" which was used in the West whenever husbands left their wives for a period of time.
In my own family, two of my brothers had wives that had secret affairs. One of my brothers, mindful of the advice given in Hosea (another Old Testament book) forgave his wife and sought pastoral help to keep the marriage alive.
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Medieval women ... was believed to receive far more pleasure from a sɛҳuąƖ encounter than men and reach her sɛҳuąƖ readiness far earlier than men. Perceived as more sɛҳuąƖly mature than males, women were expected to conduct themselves to higher standards than men, leading to a double standard of sɛҳuąƖ morality.
Do these amount to lust? Wiki refers to pleasure, readiness, maturity. None of these touch on the sinfulness aspect.
I don't know how reliable are these ideas relating to another age.
According to Catholic Encyclopedia:
Lust
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]The inordinate craving for, or indulgence of, the carnal pleasure which is experienced in the human organs of generation.[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]The wrongfulness of lust is reducible to this: that venereal satisfaction is sought for either outside wedlock or, at any rate, in a manner which is contrary to the laws (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09053a.htm) that govern marital intercourse. Every such criminal indulgence is a mortal sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm), provided of course, it be voluntary (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15506a.htm) in itself and fully deliberate. This is the testimony of St. Paul (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm) in the Epistle to the Galatians, v. 19:[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, . . . Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08646a.htm)."[/color]
I haven't read Canterbury Tales.
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Women in the work force are tempted to sell their souls through sɛҳuąƖ immorality to gain an advancement in salary. Recently, there have been many news stories concerning this matter in the Mainstream Media (MSM).
Women who go to most colleges are in jeopardy of losing their virginity and their souls, especially if they live in dormitories or have joined sororities.
Fathers and husbands need to protect their children and wives and guide them in the faith.
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Women are more prone to engaging in fornication & adultery 2-5 days before their menstruation.
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Men give in to lust.
Women give in to exhibitionism and vanity. It is vanity and self-indulgence that causes women to give in to the temptation of making men lust after them.
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Men have higher sex drives since testosterone is the hormone that regulates it(even women with higher test are more lustful than women with lower test). However men have much less opportunities to act on these urges as women have far higher standards than men, so the average Joe Bloggs probably won't get into an affair. Women, while less lustful, would have it much easier seeking an affair if she did want one. So a husband must still be careful.
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Women are more prone to engaging in fornication & adultery 2-5 days before their menstruation.
FALSE
Many women experience PMS 1 to 5 days prior to their menses.
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I think women are prone to the sins of pride and vanity which can lead them to use their bodies to entice men but much less so lust - stemming from the urge for physical stimulation.
More conservative societies do actively seek to control how women express their sɛҳuąƖity not because women are lustful but because immodestly and lack of chastity in women draws men who struggle to resist lustful thoughts into sin.
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Women are more prone to engaging in fornication & adultery 2-5 days before their menstruation.
Maria Regina said:
FALSE
Many women experience PMS 1 to 5 days prior to their menses.
You are both talking about different things.
Women are more prone to sin 2-5 days before menstruation?? Do you have a reference for that, Croix?
And what has PMS to do with lust?
I know that women's desire for sex peaks at ovulation.
Also it seems that some people here are confusing sɛҳuąƖ desire with lust.
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A desire for potentially procreative sex with your husband around ovulation is hardly lustfull. It is how God intended marriage.
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You are both talking about different things.
Women are more prone to sin 2-5 days before menstruation?? Do you have a reference for that, Croix?
And what has PMS to do with lust?
I know that women's desire for sex peaks at ovulation.
Also it seems that some people here are confusing sɛҳuąƖ desire with lust.
Women suffering from PMS are in pain. Thus, PMS pain would inhibit any lustful thoughts. Since PMS is the most miserable time of the month for most women, they would be unlikely to engage in social activities such as dating, going to a restaurant. or dancing, etc. Instead, they are likely to stay in bed and eat comfort food like chocolate, which can make their symptoms worst.
When I was diagnosed with PMS, my doctor prescribed Vitamin B6 (100 mg) along with Magnesium (400 mg) at bedtime. My friends and I found that a cup of brown rice and a dish of stirred fried vegetables served at dinner worked like a charm when followed up with the B6 and Magnesium at bedtime.
See the summary of PMS below from https://medlineplus.gov/premenstrualsyndrome.html .
Summary
Premenstrual syndrome, or PMS, is a group of symptoms that start one to two weeks before your period. Most women have at least some symptoms of PMS, and the symptoms go away after their periods start. For some women, the symptoms are severe enough to interfere with their lives. They have a type of PMS called premenstrual dysphoric disorder, or PMDD.
Common PMS symptoms include
- Breast swelling and tenderness
- Acne
- Bloating and weight gain
- Pain - headache or joint pain
- Food cravings
- Irritability, mood swings, crying spells, depression
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No one knows what causes PMS, but hormonal changes trigger the symptoms. No single PMS treatment works for everyone. Over-the-counter pain relievers such as ibuprofen, aspirin or naproxen may help ease cramps, headaches, backaches and breast tenderness. Exercising, getting enough sleep, and avoiding salt, caffeine, and alcohol can also help.
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A desire for potentially procreative sex with your husband around ovulation is hardly lustfull. It is how God intended marriage.
Very true.
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FALSE
Many women experience PMS 1 to 5 days prior to their menses.
:facepalm:
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A desire for potentially procreative sex with your husband around ovulation is hardly lustfull.
Strawman.
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Also it seems that some people here are confusing sɛҳuąƖ desire with lust.
:facepalm:
There can be a fine line between sɛҳuąƖ desire & lust. Most women ovulate 12 - 16 days before their next menstruation. During this time, sɛҳuąƖ desire is peaking due to hormone release, thus, there is a higher potential of falling into lust. Of course, there are other factors involved.
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Women are more prone to sin 2-5 days before menstruation?? Do you have a reference for that, Croix?
I know this based on my previous dealings with chicks.
Also, take it for whatever it's worth (as scientific studies are many times fraudulent or in error), this study seems to, generally, back what I say.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15216424
"Conception probability and relationship length interacted significantly to predict extra-pair desires, such that women in longer relationships were more likely to experience desire for extra-pair partners during periods of high conception probability."
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:facepalm:
There can be a fine line between sɛҳuąƖ desire & lust. Most women ovulate 12 - 16 days before their next menstruation. During this time, sɛҳuąƖ desire is peaking due to hormone release, thus, there is a higher potential of falling into lust. Of course, there are other factors involved.
That may be true for unmarried women in particular, since they have no 'sin free' outlet for sɛҳuąƖ desire and definitely when women do fall into sin, it is often associated with that stage of their cycle. However even if at that time women are as vulnerable to falling into lust as men it is only for 2 or 3 days in 26-30.
Furthermore from my experience, discussion with many other women (admittedly overwhelmingly believing Christians) and from the evidence for discussions on forum like this I would say that whilst most women experience a degree of 'sɛҳuąƖ desire' around that time it is generally more focussed on the wish to 'have a baby' (even if only as an idea - without much practical thought) rather than on the sɛҳuąƖ act itself and whilst this may lead to unhealthy 'romantic' or even lustful thoughts, for example an unmarried woman may fantasise about a potential partner or even about fornication (which if she is a devout Christian she is unlikely to act upon) it is pretty uncommon, even for women who do not consider it a sin (because they reject Christ) to fall into habitual self abuse as men often do.
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Discussions like these do nobody any good.
(Besides the fact that the question is a priori nonsensical)
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Furthermore from my experience, discussion with many other women (admittedly overwhelmingly believing Christians) and from the evidence for discussions on forum like this I would say ...
I expect the experience of traditional Catholic women to be significantly different from the general population because hormone-based contraceptives are so common and these tend to reduce/change sɛҳuąƖ desire.
From a website based on US studies ("at risk" refers to risk of unintended pregnancy):
Contraceptive use is common among women of all religious denominations. Eighty-nine percent of at-risk Catholics and 90% of at-risk Protestants currently use a contraceptive method.
[...]
Sixty-seven percent of women who practice contraception currently use nonpermanent methods, primarily hormonal methods (the pill, patch, implant, injectable and vaginal ring), IUDs and condoms. The rest rely on female (25%) or male (8%) sterilization
https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/contraceptive-use-united-states (https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/contraceptive-use-united-states)
Women who do not tamper with their natural hormones (not to mention have proper moral formation) are likely to feel and behave very differently from those who accept the norms of Western society.
From what I have seen of these norms, Western women often do not even seem able to distinguish between being pretty (well-groomed and pleasant appearance) and "sexy" (attempting to arouse lust in men).
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Contraceptives are not the only thing disturbing women's natural sɛҳuąƖ responses. A large proportion of Western women are stressed and sleep-deprived by trying to take on men's jobs and functions. So, not only is there a problem with impurity among the unmarried women, but there is often impairment of a married women's ability to desire and/or please her husband. I suspect this is a major factor in the (apparently common) problem of wives who refuse to pay the marriage debt.
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Contraceptives are not the only thing disturbing women's natural sɛҳuąƖ responses. A large proportion of Western women are stressed and sleep-deprived by trying to take on men's jobs and functions. So, not only is there a problem with impurity among the unmarried women, but there is often impairment of a married women's ability to desire and/or please her husband. I suspect this is a major factor in the (apparently common) problem of wives who refuse to pay the marriage debt.
That sounds reasonable. Another factor would be feminism, where women have lost respect for their husbands and for men in general. Consequently, since they have no respect for their husbands, they're also less likely to be attracted to them ... since a woman's attraction to a man depends largely on the respect and esteem she has for him.
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That sounds reasonable. Another factor would be feminism, where women have lost respect for their husbands and for men in general. Consequently, since they have no respect for their husbands, they're also less likely to be attracted to them ... since a woman's attraction to a man depends largely on the respect and esteem she has for him.
I agree. Feminism is such a perverse and evil ideology that it almost certainly plays a large part in causing the mess that is modern Western sɛҳuąƖity.
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However even if at that time women are as vulnerable to falling into lust as men it is only for 2 or 3 days in 26-30.
I agree, that's why I previously stated that zone of being the most prone to sins of impurity is about 2-5 days before their menstruation, but maybe it's a little earlier, and it lasts about 2-3 days.
Also, during that 2-3 day zone, the probability of married women cheating on their husbands is higher, albeit, even if the probability is still very low, but it depends on the woman.
Many stupid husbands aren't in tune with their wives. They better watch them, if the husbands even care...