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Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Marcelino on May 12, 2012, 06:55:16 PM

Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Marcelino on May 12, 2012, 06:55:16 PM
One trip to the grocery store should convince you, romance is big business!  And it isn't men who are buying most of this stuff.  Why do women like romance so much?  Are they being helped by it or is it just another expression of an economy guided by immorality?    

Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Traditional Guy 20 on May 12, 2012, 07:13:35 PM
If you'll notice Marc all of the romance novels have to do with the "single woman" having "safe sex" with their boyfriend they have a "crush" on while also having a great career.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Nylndech on May 12, 2012, 08:26:49 PM
Not all are like that.

Christian romance novels are more in line with moral behavior.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Marcelino on May 13, 2012, 12:44:24 AM
What I'm thinking of is what seems to be the main idea in the 1993 zombie romance comedy movie, "My Boyfriend is Back."  The main character has been obsessed with the same girl, since the 1st grade.  By the time he's a teenager, he lusts for her constantly.  However, she's completely out of his reach.  She's the kind of a girl who'd be prom queen and he's the kind of a guy who could never be prom king, without some sort of "affirmative action."  So, they don't "belong" together.  But, in order to get her, he gives up his life, comes back from the dead and then eats a living person (although technically the guy was already dead, so not murder, but still cannibalism).  The gist seems to be, he's willing to do anything to have her.  The reason that's given for that is that he loves her so much.  That's supposed to make it all o.k., but I keep wondering, shouldn't he love God more, than this girl.  And if he did, wouldn't he be unwilling to do unnatural things to get what he wants.  

Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Marcelino on May 13, 2012, 04:02:46 PM
Quote from: Nylndech
Not all are like that.

Christian romance novels are more in line with moral behavior.


Is that true?  Because what I see of romance in our modernist culture is that men are supposed to worship women, like/literally as if they were goddesses.  
That seems very wrong.  

I'd like to think there's a right place for romance in our lives, but I think we are far, far away from it.  

It seems ridiculous, but this seems to be the appeal to romance novels nowadays.  They seem to be appealing to women's vanity, in order to sell books and then, teaching women to be slaves to their pride, which should make them more manipulatable, than a women who is humble.  

This seems like a very bad influence.  





Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Nylndech on May 13, 2012, 04:26:33 PM
I played around with the idea of writing romance.

My last book turned out to not be a romance per se, but the protagonist did fall in love, if only to be betrayed.

That book was a tale about forgiveness and revenge set in a dystopian near-future Earth.

I'm interested in writing to promote Catholic values, even if religion itself is not explored (so like chapter 5 won't be the protagonist praying the Rosary alone in her Mary garden unless it's important to the plot).

It is easier than ever to self-publish or self-distribute.

I had an idea for a romance.  The woman is an Irene Adler clever girl-type, but eventually settles down to a trad-approved family lifestyle.

Maybe the story could be two trad Catholics in love.

I've never been in a trad parish community though.

I'll get around to writing sometime.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Traditional Guy 20 on May 13, 2012, 06:43:13 PM
Quote from: Marcelino
What I'm thinking of is what seems to be the main idea in the 1993 zombie romance comedy movie, "My Boyfriend is Back."  The main character has been obsessed with the same girl, since the 1st grade.  By the time he's a teenager, he lusts for her constantly.  However, she's completely out of his reach.  She's the kind of a girl who'd be prom queen and he's the kind of a guy who could never be prom king, without some sort of "affirmative action."  So, they don't "belong" together.  But, in order to get her, he gives up his life, comes back from the dead and then eats a living person (although technically the guy was already dead, so not murder, but still cannibalism).  The gist seems to be, he's willing to do anything to have her.  The reason that's given for that is that he loves her so much.  That's supposed to make it all o.k., but I keep wondering, shouldn't he love God more, than this girl.  And if he did, wouldn't he be unwilling to do unnatural things to get what he wants.  



What the...? What book is this and why would anyone take 5 minutes of their time reading such a strange story, no offense. :stare:
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Marcelino on May 13, 2012, 07:17:19 PM
Quote from: Traditional Guy 20
Quote from: Marcelino
What I'm thinking of is what seems to be the main idea in the 1993 zombie romance comedy movie, "My Boyfriend is Back."  The main character has been obsessed with the same girl, since the 1st grade.  By the time he's a teenager, he lusts for her constantly.  However, she's completely out of his reach.  She's the kind of a girl who'd be prom queen and he's the kind of a guy who could never be prom king, without some sort of "affirmative action."  So, they don't "belong" together.  But, in order to get her, he gives up his life, comes back from the dead and then eats a living person (although technically the guy was already dead, so not murder, but still cannibalism).  The gist seems to be, he's willing to do anything to have her.  The reason that's given for that is that he loves her so much.  That's supposed to make it all o.k., but I keep wondering, shouldn't he love God more, than this girl.  And if he did, wouldn't he be unwilling to do unnatural things to get what he wants.  



What the...? What book is this and why would anyone take 5 minutes of their time reading such a strange story, no offense. :stare:


Ha ha!  it's a movie, not a book!  

It's a simple theme:  sɛҳuąƖ obsession leads to death and it is pathetic (good message)  :incense:.  But then hollywierd puts a scooby doo ending on it, which is supposed to convince the audience that sɛҳuąƖ obsession is the greatest love of all and it conquers all! (evil message)   :devil2:



Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Cheryl on May 14, 2012, 09:17:52 AM
Quote from: Marcelino
One trip to the grocery store should convince you, romance is big business!  And it isn't men who are buying most of this stuff.  Why do women like romance so much?  Are they being helped by it or is it just another expression of an economy guided by immorality?    




Never send a man to do a woman's thinking.  As a former bookseller and a woman, the reason for women reading romance novels is woman are designed to be ruled by emotions and romance novels tug on their heartstrings.  

When it comes to today's romance novels, one might as well read porn because there sure is a lot of sex going on in these books written to appeal to women. When I first became aware of what was written in romance novels I was appalled that seventy and eighty year old ladies were reading hardcore smut!

I read my first and last romance novel when I was 12 (no smut then) and was bored to tears.  The plot was the same as all romance novels at the time; boy meets girl, they fall in love, fate separates them, girl is miserable, boy returns and everyone lives happily ever after. (boring!!!)    
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: clare on May 14, 2012, 11:00:44 AM
Quote from: Marcelino
What I'm thinking of is what seems to be the main idea in the 1993 zombie romance comedy movie, "My Boyfriend is Back."  The main character has been obsessed with the same girl, since the 1st grade.  By the time he's a teenager, he lusts for her constantly.  However, she's completely out of his reach.  She's the kind of a girl who'd be prom queen and he's the kind of a guy who could never be prom king, without some sort of "affirmative action."  So, they don't "belong" together.  But, in order to get her, he gives up his life, comes back from the dead and then eats a living person (although technically the guy was already dead, so not murder, but still cannibalism).  The gist seems to be, he's willing to do anything to have her.  The reason that's given for that is that he loves her so much.  That's supposed to make it all o.k., but I keep wondering, shouldn't he love God more, than this girl.  And if he did, wouldn't he be unwilling to do unnatural things to get what he wants.  



That reminds me of a film that I haven't seen, but someone described to me. I can't remember it very well, but it involved a girl vampire, and a bullied boy who liked her, and she got him to kill people for her. Or something. I can't remember what it's called either.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Matthew on May 14, 2012, 11:23:48 AM
Quote from: Nylndech
I played around with the idea of writing romance.

My last book turned out to not be a romance per se, but the protagonist did fall in love, if only to be betrayed.

That book was a tale about forgiveness and revenge set in a dystopian near-future Earth.

I'm interested in writing to promote Catholic values, even if religion itself is not explored (so like chapter 5 won't be the protagonist praying the Rosary alone in her Mary garden unless it's important to the plot).

It is easier than ever to self-publish or self-distribute.

I had an idea for a romance.  The woman is an Irene Adler clever girl-type, but eventually settles down to a trad-approved family lifestyle.

Maybe the story could be two trad Catholics in love.

I've never been in a trad parish community though.

I'll get around to writing sometime.


Hmm, that would be very interesting, you writing a romance novel.
I can see it now:

Quote
Once upon a time.

A man was named Bob.

He met a young lady.

Her name was Alice.

But there was a problem.

Alice lived very far away.

Until one day, Alice signed up for an online dating service.

Bob saw her on that service.

(and so on)
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Telesphorus on May 14, 2012, 11:27:49 AM
Telestory

The Adventures of Tele, by Archposter Telesphorus.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Nylndech on May 14, 2012, 11:39:29 AM
Matthew must have invaded my computer.

Stole my digital manuscript.

Only explanation.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Cheryl on May 14, 2012, 01:10:02 PM
Quote from: Matthew


Hmm, that would be very interesting, you writing a romance novel.
I can see it now:

Quote
Once upon a time.

A man was named Bob.

He met a young lady.

Her name was Alice.

But there was a problem.

Alice lived very far away.

Until one day, Alice signed up for an online dating service.

Bob saw her on that service.

(and so on)


Matthew, please don't give up your day job! :jester:
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Cognorati001 on May 20, 2012, 09:34:15 AM
Not all romance novels or movies are immoral.

I only watch costume dramas/romances because there is usually no profanity, sex, or extreme violence. I don't watch any other sort of films.  I also love to study about certain epochs and I like how much effort goes into creating the films.

Also, women generally like to see people expressing love or caring for one another -- it is a consolation.  I am also single and get some vicarious fulfillment from seeing people in love in movies.

There are some romance novels that have no sex; however, I never look into romance novels because they're mostly pornography.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Roland Deschain on May 25, 2012, 04:29:29 PM
What I find appalling are the womens magazines on the checkout line. I can't even take my son to the store with me anymore. Seems like every story involves 101 great positions and how to look better naked.

I told my wife: women complain that men think about sex constantly. Judging by these magazines that appeal to women, we have nothing on them.

At least men's magazines talk about sports on occasion.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Marcelino on May 26, 2012, 03:22:00 PM
Quote from: Roland Deschain
What I find appalling are the womens magazines on the checkout line. I can't even take my son to the store with me anymore. Seems like every story involves 101 great positions and how to look better naked.

I told my wife: women complain that men think about sex constantly. Judging by these magazines that appeal to women, we have nothing on them.

At least men's magazines talk about sports on occasion.

 

(http://www.illustrationartgallery.com/acatalog/HowatSam.jpg)


 
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Marcelino on May 26, 2012, 03:26:20 PM
It seems like billy joel (jew) glorifies the worst in women, in his deceptively gentle sounding song, "she's always a woman to me."  
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Traditional Guy 20 on May 26, 2012, 06:32:09 PM
Quote from: Roland Deschain
What I find appalling are the womens magazines on the checkout line. I can't even take my son to the store with me anymore. Seems like every story involves 101 great positions and how to look better naked.

I told my wife: women complain that men think about sex constantly. Judging by these magazines that appeal to women, we have nothing on them.

At least men's magazines talk about sports on occasion.


Women are "turned on" by romance novels and women's magazines, men by pornography.

All signs of a decadent society.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: MrsZ on May 29, 2012, 03:50:58 PM
I was allowed to read whatever I wanted growing up.  I was scandalized early on as I became a young teenager and read various books from our local public library.  From horror novels to romance stories to paranormal investigations...

Back then, in the late 70's, early 80's, there was TONS of junk available to anyone with a library card.  It ruined me in many ways of learning about things I had no business reading about. My innocence was lost forever...and even though I've become a Catholic since that time ... those earlier corruptions stay with me to this day.  And it's this knowledge that has caused me to see a monster around every corner with regard to my children re: books and movies.  And they are there!

The other thing about books and libraries and liberals.  The liberals have, for centuries, rejected the Bible as Sacred and worthy of reverance and adherence to it's teachings....But what have they done instead?  They now revere ANY book, other than the Bible or one of Catholic spiritual merit.  Now they hold up Harry Potter,  or some other such drivel as "good "for the masses.  I remember that whole thing with Harry Potter..."as long as the kids are READING, it doesn't matter WHAT they read!"

In regard to women and romance...It seems to me we women have been manipulated to seek and believe in this type of thing.  We are emotional, we care about our families and it helps us to feel secure in this life to believe in a "true love" (really, a fixation, where he can't think of anything else) from our husband's that will bind him forever to our sides.  The emphasis on romance (and further down in the degradation process, sɛҳuąƖ obsession), has grown directly proportionate to the decrease in Faith in God and Love and Trust in Him....now we are encouraged to make our marriage an idol and we want our H's apparently to make an idol of us...to be "worshipped and adored" ..I guess for pride and vanity, and as a way of trying to make the marriage permanent.  

Even, I hate to say it, Jane Austen's books, "Pride and Prejudice" for one .. have this somewhat new to the time, focus on making a "true love" match ... not for money or security or family...but for romance.  For some "feeling" of being connected for life to the one person who can make you happy.  It seems to me that it's making a man an idol to worship.

Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Marcelino on May 29, 2012, 03:55:52 PM
Quote from: MrsZ


Even, I hate to say it, Jane Austen's books, "Pride and Prejudice" for one .. have this somewhat new to the time, focus on making a "true love" match ... not for money or security or family...but for romance.  For some "feeling" of being connected for life to the one person who can make you happy.  It seems to me that it's making a man an idol to worship.



Yeah, thinking with your "heart," instead of your head.  Our feelings are whimsical.  They can't be relied on.  But that's romance!  

Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Telesphorus on May 29, 2012, 04:05:22 PM
Quote from: MrsZ
Even, I hate to say it, Jane Austen's books, "Pride and Prejudice" for one .. have this somewhat new to the time, focus on making a "true love" match ... not for money or security or family...but for romance.  For some "feeling" of being connected for life to the one person who can make you happy.  It seems to me that it's making a man an idol to worship.


Mrs. Z, when Adam met Eve, were they thinking of money and security?

A defect in Jane Austen's novels is that the spiritual aspect is lacking.

But a love story, being about love, is not wrong.  Nor was the emphasis on love an innovation, no matter what the feminists say about it.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Capt McQuigg on May 29, 2012, 04:06:10 PM
Quote from: Marcelino
It seems like billy joel (jew) glorifies the worst in women, in his deceptively gentle sounding song, "she's always a woman to me."  


Maybe he can hum that vile song to himself while writing out alimony checks.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: MrsZ on May 29, 2012, 09:02:40 PM
I agree that the spiritual element is lacking in the Jane Austen books.  It took me a few years of reading them off and on to catch onto that fact ..(I was a new Catholic) and that the ministers in the stories were often objects of amusement and mockery.  

I also agree that marrying for money alone is not admirable . However,  marrying on the basis of physical attraction and superficial interests ... both of which fade and change with time, doesn't seem to work over the long haul either.  And much of the romances focus on that "catch of the breath" type of thing which ultimately is, if not an illusion, than only temporary and nothing to base a lifetime on.

I've been married for 22 years.  Shared faith is #1, friendship #2 and common interests and view of life #3.....

Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Marcelino on May 29, 2012, 09:17:37 PM
I think you folks totally nailed it with the jane austen thing.  I couldn't place what bothered me about the movie "sense and sensibility" (except the heaving breasts in the modern version), but you definitely nailed it on that one:  the set up is marry for money or eros, but neither of those should be our first priority.  They just set up a false choice and then add the old timey stuff to give it fake legitimacy, so you don't feel as guilty, but it's bogus.  Thanks for clearing that one up.  A lot of religious people fall for that stuff.

I'd appreciate it if anyone would elaborate on how jane austen does that in her novels, especially in pride and prejudice.  
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: theology101 on May 29, 2012, 11:31:10 PM
I would think women have a biological need to seek a mate just as men do. They love "romance" novels because they are , um, 'romantic' creatures- women are the feelers, men are the workers, or so it has always seemed. Women are emotional, men are visual, which is why men like visual porn and women like textual porn- text conveys emotion much better. IMO.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: MrsZ on May 30, 2012, 06:28:07 PM
This is only my opinion...

As I see it, the main issue in Pride and Prejudice, is that the women do not have an inheritance from their father to live on when he passes away.  If they do not marry "well" they will be left impoverished, dependent on charity. Therefore, at least 1 or 2 of the 4 sisters need to marry well in order to secure their own futures and that of their mother when the time comes.  The main character, Elizabeth Bennett does not want to marry only for that security.  She rejects a proposal from a cousin who is also a clergyman because she does not love him and could never respect such an insipid self important character.  Ultimately, she gets to have it all: security, fortune, status and love...

Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Marcelino on May 30, 2012, 09:18:16 PM
Quote from: MrsZ
This is only my opinion...

As I see it, the main issue in Pride and Prejudice, is that the women do not have an inheritance from their father to live on when he passes away.  If they do not marry "well" they will be left impoverished, dependent on charity. Therefore, at least 1 or 2 of the 4 sisters need to marry well in order to secure their own futures and that of their mother when the time comes.  The main character, Elizabeth Bennett does not want to marry only for that security.  She rejects a proposal from a cousin who is also a clergyman because she does not love him and could never respect such an insipid self important character.  Ultimately, she gets to have it all: security, fortune, status and love...



So, in other words, the potential spouse's religion and morality seems like sort of a side issue, not one of prime importance.  Money, romance and personal enjoyment / fulfillment in other words, seem more important, to the main characters.  
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: MrsZ on May 31, 2012, 03:15:03 PM
It seems to me that a person's religion / faith is sort of just assumed.  It is so much a part of the fabric of their everyday lives: everyone goes to church, and marries in the church (except for an errant sibling who causes great scandal to everyone), baptises their children, etc.  But it is not discussed, nor is there mention, if I recall' of saying prayers ...

This may just be the reality of being Protestant.  If they were a Catholic family of that time, I'm imagine they would be depicted as saying prayers and using expressions in their daily conversation that would relate to their faith as active and important.

But the people in Jane Austen's novels, and Charles Dickens and the Bronte sisters ... there seems to be a strict avoidance of expressions of anything remotely religious.  One of the Bronte sisters wrote a book about being a teacher in Paris...the main character goes through intense depression, and ends up talking to a Catholic priest.  But the way in which this is all described is as though the character finds it almost horrifying: the church, the rituals, the ceremonies...I read it many years ago, but that is the impression with which I've been left.  It's called "Villette."
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Marcelino on June 01, 2012, 02:25:19 PM
Quote from: MrsZ
It seems to me that a person's religion / faith is sort of just assumed.  It is so much a part of the fabric of their everyday lives: everyone goes to church, and marries in the church (except for an errant sibling who causes great scandal to everyone), baptises their children, etc.  But it is not discussed, nor is there mention, if I recall' of saying prayers ...

This may just be the reality of being Protestant.  If they were a Catholic family of that time, I'm imagine they would be depicted as saying prayers and using expressions in their daily conversation that would relate to their faith as active and important.

But the people in Jane Austen's novels, and Charles ####ens and the Bronte sisters ... there seems to be a strict avoidance of expressions of anything remotely religious.  One of the Bronte sisters wrote a book about being a teacher in Paris...the main character goes through intense depression, and ends up talking to a Catholic priest.  But the way in which this is all described is as though the character finds it almost horrifying: the church, the rituals, the ceremonies...I read it many years ago, but that is the impression with which I've been left.  It's called "Villette."


They sound like a bunch of self-loating/very "lukewarm" christians
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Telesphorus on June 01, 2012, 02:41:44 PM
Jane Eyre actually has a religious dimension.

There is the matter of Mrs. Reid's daughter who decides to join the convent.

Then there is the man who plans to become a missionary to India, who wants to marry her.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: MrsZ on June 02, 2012, 09:40:46 AM
I had not remembered that.  I've only read that book once and it was years ago....other memories of other stories have interfered in the meantime.  I'll have to read it again, thank you.  
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Marcelino on June 02, 2012, 05:21:10 PM
Quote from: Telesphorus
Jane Eyre actually has a religious dimension.

There is the matter of Mrs. Reid's daughter who decides to join the convent.

Then there is the man who plans to become a missionary to India, who wants to marry her.


From the way she describes it and from what i remember, it sounds like religion is more of a "setting," than anything else.  Not really much more important to the story, then the fact that they are english and in england.  
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Telesphorus on June 02, 2012, 05:25:45 PM
Quote from: Marcelino
From the way she describes it and from what i remember, it sounds like religion is more of a "setting," than anything else.  Not really much more important to the story, then the fact that they are english and in england.  


No, there's definite significance in those stories.  Although I think there's as much criticism of "religious excess" as there is recognition of it.

However, Jane does refuse to become a mistress, and Rochester is punished for his transgression.  
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: stevusmagnus on June 02, 2012, 05:27:07 PM
Check out the latest romance novel rage! "50 Shades of Gray"

They are going even deeper in the gutter. And this book is a best-seller. Movie rights went for millions.

WARNING: Mature Themes

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/03/books/fifty-shades-of-grey-s-and-m-cinderella.html
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Marcelino on June 02, 2012, 05:30:05 PM
Quote from: Telesphorus
Quote from: Marcelino
From the way she describes it and from what i remember, it sounds like religion is more of a "setting," than anything else.  Not really much more important to the story, then the fact that they are english and in england.  


No, there's definite significance in those stories.  Although I think there's as much criticism of "religious excess" as there is recognition of it.

However, Jane does refuse to become a mistress, and Rochester is punished for his transgression.  


So, what do you think are the lessons about marriage and choosing a spouse in it?  
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Telesphorus on June 02, 2012, 05:34:35 PM
Quote from: Marcelino
So, what do you think are the lessons about marriage and choosing a spouse in it?  


Obviously it suggests it's not wise to marry to please a parent at 19 for money, especially if you're a man.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Telesphorus on June 02, 2012, 05:37:02 PM
Quote from: stevusmagnus
Check out the latest romance novel rage! "50 Shades of Gray"

They are going even deeper in the gutter. And this book is a best-seller. Movie rights went for millions.

WARNING: Mature Themes

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/03/books/fifty-shades-of-grey-s-and-m-cinderella.html


Yeah stevus, the culture is filthy, but we can't have girls saying hello to a devout man after church if the priest and father don't want it.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: egoveritas on June 02, 2012, 06:37:14 PM
Quote from: Telesphorus
Quote from: stevusmagnus
Check out the latest romance novel rage! "50 Shades of Gray"

They are going even deeper in the gutter. And this book is a best-seller. Movie rights went for millions.

WARNING: Mature Themes

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/03/books/fifty-shades-of-grey-s-and-m-cinderella.html


Yeah stevus, the culture is filthy, but we can't have girls saying hello to a devout man after church if the priest and father don't want it.
don't start Tele
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Marcelino on June 02, 2012, 09:11:40 PM
marry for love, marry for money, i guess there's a lot of different reasons.  I would marry for things like that too, but i think the first priority should be religion and to a lesser degree ethnicity.  Even more important than things like money and love though, I would think would be a set of common priorities.  
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Marcelino on June 02, 2012, 09:13:25 PM
I think respect would be what I was looking for, in the realm of where I'd think our modern culture would put "love."  

Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Telesphorus on June 02, 2012, 09:27:23 PM
Quote from: Marcelino
marry for love


What motivates people to marry?

Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Telesphorus on June 02, 2012, 09:29:33 PM
Quote from: egoveritas
don't start Tele


I'm never going to stop exposing dirty dishonest people and sick pharisaic hypocrisy.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Roland Deschain on June 03, 2012, 11:09:21 AM
Quote from: Telesphorus
Quote from: egoveritas
don't start Tele


I'm never going to stop exposing dirty dishonest people and sick pharisaic hypocrisy.


....or being bitter and making every thread that mentions women about your own personal problems and hang-ups.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Telesphorus on June 03, 2012, 12:55:07 PM
Quote from: Roland Deschain
Quote from: Telesphorus
Quote from: egoveritas
don't start Tele


I'm never going to stop exposing dirty dishonest people and sick pharisaic hypocrisy.


....or being bitter and making every thread that mentions women about your own personal problems and hang-ups.


João, the desire of people like yourself and egoveritas to interject has nothing to do with any problems I have.

Rather it has to do with attachment to a culture that supports lies and hypocrisy in women.  If you still post on fisheaters, that's exactly what you support.  A disgusting cultural marxist parody of Catholic traditionalism.

The culture is in the gutter but it's more important for scuмmy people to treat me as a freak for having liked a young woman (who gave me ample encouragement) and having been kicked out of church for simply wanting a chance to talk to her.


Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Telesphorus on June 03, 2012, 01:01:32 PM
I think, if we look at the attitudes on FE, it's not a surprise why the sellout is happening.  If FE is in any way representative of second and third generation
Trads, they are very much attached to liberal society, and Catholicism is more like a childhood toy or attachment for them than anything that would ever affect their moral behavior in any significant way.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Marcelino on June 03, 2012, 09:43:39 PM
Quote from: Telesphorus
Quote from: Roland Deschain
Quote from: Telesphorus
Quote from: egoveritas
don't start Tele


I'm never going to stop exposing dirty dishonest people and sick pharisaic hypocrisy.


....or being bitter and making every thread that mentions women about your own personal problems and hang-ups.


João, the desire of people like yourself and egoveritas to interject has nothing to do with any problems I have.

Rather it has to do with attachment to a culture that supports lies and hypocrisy in women.  If you still post on fisheaters, that's exactly what you support.  A disgusting cultural marxist parody of Catholic traditionalism.

The culture is in the gutter but it's more important for scuмmy people to treat me as a freak for having liked a young woman (who gave me ample encouragement) and having been kicked out of church for simply wanting a chance to talk to her.




(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ut1EE2MxIM/TdvkdrJ4_fI/AAAAAAAABvU/hjcAWcybG8Y/s1600/Obsession_BR_s1_72dpi.jpg)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCAt6E4wBEk&feature=related
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Cheryl on June 04, 2012, 10:27:14 AM
Quote from: MrsZ
I agree that the spiritual element is lacking in the Jane Austen books.  It took me a few years of reading them off and on to catch onto that fact ..(I was a new Catholic) and that the ministers in the stories were often objects of amusement and mockery.  



Maybe Miss Austen made the minister characters in the novels "objects of amusement and mockery" because she knew firsthand the lives of Anglican ministers of the Regency.  After all, she was a minister's daughter and the family spinster.  Her novels were her way of letting the rest of the world see what the upper classes of her time were really like.    
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Lover of Truth on June 04, 2012, 01:47:33 PM
Quote from: Marcelino
One trip to the grocery store should convince you, romance is big business!  And it isn't men who are buying most of this stuff.  Why do women like romance so much?  Are they being helped by it or is it just another expression of an economy guided by immorality?    



The free-masons knew they could not destroy the Church through reason or logic so they sought to destroy her through the weakness of our fallen human nature - corruption.  Thus, the sleazy magazine covers plastered all over place for the view of children and all who dare to shop for groceries.  The "romance" appeals to our proneness to gossip and our unhealthy curiosity about things that are none of our business plus it "legitimatizes" or normalizes the evil of sex outside of the sacred marriage bond.  Show more and more flesh, have more and more illicit sex, then the "need" for contraception, then abortion, infidelity, divorce and remarriage.  Hey the Church is against all this.  Yeah it is.  Who needs it?  Not those who have been secretly programmed to be sɛҳuąƖly depraved for the entirety of their lives through the media at every turn.  No siree.  The secret puppet masters have pulled the strings masterfully.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: MrsZ on June 04, 2012, 05:27:03 PM
Quote from: Cheryl
Quote from: MrsZ
I agree that the spiritual element is lacking in the Jane Austen books.  It took me a few years of reading them off and on to catch onto that fact ..(I was a new Catholic) and that the ministers in the stories were often objects of amusement and mockery.  



Maybe Miss Austen made the minister characters in the novels "objects of amusement and mockery" because she knew firsthand the lives of Anglican ministers of the Regency.  After all, she was a minister's daughter and the family spinster.  Her novels were her way of letting the rest of the world see what the upper classes of her time were really like.    


Very good point!
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Marcelino on June 04, 2012, 10:33:56 PM
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Quote from: Marcelino
One trip to the grocery store should convince you, romance is big business!  And it isn't men who are buying most of this stuff.  Why do women like romance so much?  Are they being helped by it or is it just another expression of an economy guided by immorality?    



The free-masons knew they could not destroy the Church through reason or logic so they sought to destroy her through the weakness of our fallen human nature - corruption.  Thus, the sleazy magazine covers plastered all over place for the view of children and all who dare to shop for groceries.  The "romance" appeals to our proneness to gossip and our unhealthy curiosity about things that are none of our business plus it "legitimatizes" or normalizes the evil of sex outside of the sacred marriage bond.  Show more and more flesh, have more and more illicit sex, then the "need" for contraception, then abortion, infidelity, divorce and remarriage.  Hey the Church is against all this.  Yeah it is.  Who needs it?  Not those who have been secretly programmed to be sɛҳuąƖly depraved for the entirety of their lives through the media at every turn.  No siree.  The secret puppet masters have pulled the strings masterfully.


Oh yeah, agree with that.  It's tyranny.  

All this renders people slaves to their passions, which makes them easy to manipulate, because they just act on impulse, not reason.  

Of course, if we can indulge our passions, with no regard for morality, then why can't wall street and washington?  So, forget about business and political leaders acting in the public good;  they look out for themselves and can say to the people, well, wouldn't you do the same?  


Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Lover of Truth on June 05, 2012, 05:49:20 AM
Quote from: Marcelino
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Quote from: Marcelino
One trip to the grocery store should convince you, romance is big business!  And it isn't men who are buying most of this stuff.  Why do women like romance so much?  Are they being helped by it or is it just another expression of an economy guided by immorality?    



The free-masons knew they could not destroy the Church through reason or logic so they sought to destroy her through the weakness of our fallen human nature - corruption.  Thus, the sleazy magazine covers plastered all over place for the view of children and all who dare to shop for groceries.  The "romance" appeals to our proneness to gossip and our unhealthy curiosity about things that are none of our business plus it "legitimatizes" or normalizes the evil of sex outside of the sacred marriage bond.  Show more and more flesh, have more and more illicit sex, then the "need" for contraception, then abortion, infidelity, divorce and remarriage.  Hey the Church is against all this.  Yeah it is.  Who needs it?  Not those who have been secretly programmed to be sɛҳuąƖly depraved for the entirety of their lives through the media at every turn.  No siree.  The secret puppet masters have pulled the strings masterfully.


Oh yeah, agree with that.  It's tyranny.  

All this renders people slaves to their passions, which makes them easy to manipulate, because they just act on impulse, not reason.  

Of course, if we can indulge our passions, with no regard for morality, then why can't wall street and washington?  So, forget about business and political leaders acting in the public good;  they look out for themselves and can say to the people, well, wouldn't you do the same?  




Well put!  
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: spouse of Jesus on June 05, 2012, 07:14:03 AM
 
Quote
One trip to the grocery store should convince you, romance is big business!  And it isn't men who are buying most of this stuff.  Why do women like romance so much?  Are they being helped by it or is it just another expression of an economy guided by immorality?  

  When I look at people's marriages I see that it is the emotional needs of women and the physical needs of men that is usually not fulfilled. A man scoffs at his wife's desire for kind words, hugs and gifts and the woman likewise is disgusted by her husband telling her to wear more make-up, be always on the mood etc.

  A man says:" I am working hard. it means that I love you, why do you want to hear it everyday? actions matter not words."
  A woman says: "I am giving you my heart, why do you care about my hair color? our hearts matter, not my appearance."
  Then after a great fight, they each go to a separate bedroom, shutting the door behind themselves. the man to his p o r n movies and the woman to her lovely novels. each one finding what they don't receive, each one fulfilling a wish that was ridiculed by the other.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Marcelino on June 05, 2012, 03:11:08 PM
Nowadays, when it comes to dating, most people say, the number one thing they look for in the other is charm.  This comes from either gender.  In other word, if people are telling the truth, charm trumps everything and by a mile, at least.  

What is charm or perhaps a more correct term is charisma?  

Lets ignore the theological definition for the moment.  Although, I think it is probably relevant.  

According to Max Weber (Weber's main intellectual concern was understanding the processes of rationalisation, secularization, and "disenchantment" that he associated with the rise of capitalism and modernity.)

"Charisma is a certain quality of an individual personality by virtue of which he is set apart from ordinary men and treated as endowed with supernatural, superhuman, or at least specifically exceptional powers or qualities. These are such as are not accessible to the ordinary person, but are regarded as of divine origin or as exemplary, and on the basis of them the individual concerned is treated as a leader"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charisma

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Weber

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/72/Superman.jpg/250px-Superman.jpg)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/72/Superman.jpg/250px-Superman.jpg
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Marcelino on June 05, 2012, 03:31:18 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/81/SuperwomanLoisLane.PNG/200px-SuperwomanLoisLane.PNG)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/81/SuperwomanLoisLane.PNG/200px-SuperwomanLoisLane.PNG
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Marcelino on June 05, 2012, 04:11:19 PM
I think the song from the rock band Poison, "Something to believe in" expresses some of the thoughts and feelings of the times Max Weber was interested in.  We live in that era noted for:  the rise of capitalism, empire and a loss of faith.  The actual line in the song is, "I give me something to believe in" and it is first expressed as he looks at his own reflection in a mirror, after a profound and sad event has occurred.  

http://crocmusic.com/track/490189/poison/something_to_believe_in/

"...in Greek mythology (narcissus) was a hunter from the territory of Thespiae in Boeotia who was renowned for his beauty. He was exceptionally proud, in that he disdained those who loved him. Nemesis saw this and attracted Narcissus to a pool where he saw his own reflection in the water and fell in love with it, not realizing it was merely an image. Unable to leave the beauty of his reflection, Narcissus died."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissus_(mythology)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Michelangelo_Caravaggio_065.jpg/250px-Michelangelo_Caravaggio_065.jpg)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Michelangelo_Caravaggio_065.jpg/250px-Michelangelo_Caravaggio_065.jpg
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: wallflower on June 05, 2012, 04:29:12 PM
Quote from: spouse of Jesus
 
Quote
One trip to the grocery store should convince you, romance is big business!  And it isn't men who are buying most of this stuff.  Why do women like romance so much?  Are they being helped by it or is it just another expression of an economy guided by immorality?  

  When I look at people's marriages I see that it is the emotional needs of women and the physical needs of men that is usually not fulfilled. A man scoffs at his wife's desire for kind words, hugs and gifts and the woman likewise is disgusted by her husband telling her to wear more make-up, be always on the mood etc.

  A man says:" I am working hard. it means that I love you, why do you want to hear it everyday? actions matter not words."
  A woman says: "I am giving you my heart, why do you care about my hair color? our hearts matter, not my appearance."
  Then after a great fight, they each go to a separate bedroom, shutting the door behind themselves. the man to his p o r n movies and the woman to her lovely novels. each one finding what they don't receive, each one fulfilling a wish that was ridiculed by the other.


That is actually a very balanced and accurate description of many unfortunate relationships. Great post spouse.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Telesphorus on June 05, 2012, 04:30:47 PM
Actually it is one of the most trite posts she's ever made.  But she's still infinitely more traditional than 99.9% of Americans.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: ora pro me on June 06, 2012, 12:19:29 AM
Infinitely???  99.9%???? Tele, you're making me worry more than usual about you!

Get a grip, man!
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Marcelino on June 06, 2012, 12:29:15 AM
I feel like I'm being "connivingly baited into a discussion or argument," must resist, can't, it's too strong, no I must,

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eHyCPR70BPI/TjSB_Jv_PyI/AAAAAAAAAII/-xIdfB9qa-Q/s320/3_63_kryptonite1.jpg)
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: sedetrad on June 06, 2012, 10:01:59 AM
Quote
Actually it is one of the most trite posts she's ever made. But she's still infinitely more traditional than 99.9% of Americans.


As someone who has worked with many married couples, she is pretty accurate with that post. What do you disagree with tele? The above is what happens to many american marriages.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Telesphorus on June 06, 2012, 12:38:38 PM
Quote from: SoJ
A man scoffs at his wife's desire for kind words, hugs and gifts and the woman likewise is disgusted by her husband telling her to wear more make-up, be always on the mood etc.


That is clearly not the reason for the divorce rate.  These trite conventions make for good cover stories though, especially for women.  Notice how SoJ in this sentence is really putting all the blame on men when talking about the respective needs of men and women.  This is the sort of thing that pop psychologists and women's magazines say.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Marcelino on June 06, 2012, 04:39:51 PM
Quote from: spouse of Jesus
 
Quote
One trip to the grocery store should convince you, romance is big business!  And it isn't men who are buying most of this stuff.  Why do women like romance so much?  Are they being helped by it or is it just another expression of an economy guided by immorality?  



  When I look at people's marriages I see that it is the emotional needs of women and the physical needs of men that is usually not fulfilled. A man scoffs at his wife's desire for kind words, hugs and gifts and the woman likewise is disgusted by her husband telling her to wear more make-up, be always on the mood etc.

  A man says:" I am working hard. it means that I love you, why do you want to hear it everyday? actions matter not words."
  A woman says: "I am giving you my heart, why do you care about my hair color? our hearts matter, not my appearance."
  Then after a great fight, they each go to a separate bedroom, shutting the door behind themselves. the man to his p o r n movies and the woman to her lovely novels. each one finding what they don't receive, each one fulfilling a wish that was ridiculed by the other.


I think your opening sentence is a stereotype and that's fine, because stereotype's don't = bad, but I'm not inclined to think it's correct.  I wouldn't go out of my way to insult you though, about it!   :laugh1:  

I would much rather have a wife who was considerate to me and respected me, than a wife who didn't, but who made sure she always looked attractive.  

It's like you're implying (although i seriously doubt you are) that men are somehow satisfied by a wife who just stands there and looks pretty, but she needs him to be a real person for her and understand her emotions and thoughts and all the rest.  I think you should be able to see how this could relegate men to the status of "infant" (you know, easily charmed by pretty things) in some people's minds.  So, I think it needs to be made clear, that isn't what you mean.



Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Marcelino on June 06, 2012, 04:57:41 PM
To add to my last post, there's this implication in your post (although, I doubt it was intended) that women need and deserve to be treated like real people, with depth and real needs, that go far beyond the superficial.  While men, on the other hand, do not have needs that go beyond the superficial!  
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: wallflower on June 07, 2012, 10:43:28 AM
Quote from: Marcelino
To add to my last post, there's this implication in your post (although, I doubt it was intended) that women need and deserve to be treated like real people, with depth and real needs, that go far beyond the superficial.  While men, on the other hand, do not have needs that go beyond the superficial!  


Not necessarily Marcelino. The physical is not that superficial. Within marriage it is a true and real expression of love and for men it is a very important one. For a wife to be in tune with her husband's needs in this way, despite not being "in the mood" herself, or even if she is in the mood, she shows a love for him and understanding that is important to him as a man. It is a proof of love that gives him strength and confirms that her love for him is greater than herself. Same goes the other way for a wife's emotional needs.

Care for these more natural needs often requires a bit of self-sacrifice and it is elevated to the supernatural when done out of love for God and each other.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: wallflower on June 07, 2012, 11:14:23 AM
I should add that that doesn't fall just under sex but also the physical in the sense of not letting herself go, taking care to still be attractive to him, making sure he can still be proud to have her as his wife.

(within reasonable bounds of course, considering all the changes she goes through with childbearing and age, that's where his needs must mature and deepen as well)

I have known many modern women who scorn this and become selfish about what is convenient to them rather than what their husbands need, then they can't understand why he checks out and won't meet her emotional needs either. It's exactly as spouse says and it goes both ways, it's always a two-way street with these things.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: MrsZ on June 07, 2012, 02:08:14 PM
Marcellino and Wallflower: I thought both of your posts were very well point.  Thank you for your observations.  :applause:
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Marcelino on June 07, 2012, 11:06:00 PM
Quote from: wallflower
I should add that that doesn't fall just under sex but also the physical in the sense of not letting herself go, taking care to still be attractive to him, making sure he can still be proud to have her as his wife.

(within reasonable bounds of course, considering all the changes she goes through with childbearing and age, that's where his needs must mature and deepen as well)

I have known many modern women who scorn this and become selfish about what is convenient to them rather than what their husbands need, then they can't understand why he checks out and won't meet her emotional needs either. It's exactly as spouse says and it goes both ways, it's always a two-way street with these things.


I guess that does make sense to me, but in a more broad sense.  It seems like if either of them let themselves go in any area of their life, they end up not being there for others and their spouse is sort of stuck with that for the rest of their life, if they don't stop it!  So, in that sense, it makes complete sense to me.  You know, you have a responsibility to your spouse to take care of yourself, because they depend on you and they are sort of "stuck with you."  

In regards to "checking out," it seems like either can do that too.  You start blowing off your spouse, then another words, you aren't making them much of a priority in your life and that's not right.  They deserve that because of their position or "rank" in your life.  It's like loving your neighbor.  You don't have a closer neighbor than your spouse.  So, to just kind of blow them off, seems pretty cold and of course, hypocritical.  

Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Traditional Guy 20 on June 08, 2012, 01:11:55 AM
Actually Marc come on we both know that men do look at the physical aspects of the woman, whether it be if she is physically fit or whether she is physically attractive. By the way there is nothing sick or wrong about that. Women also look at the physical aspects of men as well which is why they prefer the athlete or soldier.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: wallflower on June 08, 2012, 07:45:48 AM
Quote from: Marcelino
Quote from: wallflower
I should add that that doesn't fall just under sex but also the physical in the sense of not letting herself go, taking care to still be attractive to him, making sure he can still be proud to have her as his wife.

(within reasonable bounds of course, considering all the changes she goes through with childbearing and age, that's where his needs must mature and deepen as well)

I have known many modern women who scorn this and become selfish about what is convenient to them rather than what their husbands need, then they can't understand why he checks out and won't meet her emotional needs either. It's exactly as spouse says and it goes both ways, it's always a two-way street with these things.


I guess that does make sense to me, but in a more broad sense.  It seems like if either of them let themselves go in any area of their life, they end up not being there for others and their spouse is sort of stuck with that for the rest of their life, if they don't stop it!  So, in that sense, it makes complete sense to me.  You know, you have a responsibility to your spouse to take care of yourself, because they depend on you and they are sort of "stuck with you."  

In regards to "checking out," it seems like either can do that too.  You start blowing off your spouse, then another words, you aren't making them much of a priority in your life and that's not right.  They deserve that because of their position or "rank" in your life.  It's like loving your neighbor.  You don't have a closer neighbor than your spouse.  So, to just kind of blow them off, seems pretty cold and of course, hypocritical.  



Very true. I used the example of women letting go first but really it can be either or both that do it.  
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: wallflower on June 08, 2012, 08:08:26 AM
While we're at it, an anecdote about the little things...

DH made me smile yesterday because he came home with scouring pads. Silly little thing? Absolutely. But it meant more than that. He had a shopping list to pick up on his way home but scouring pads were not on it. I had only mentioned needing them the day before and they hadn't made it to the list but he remembered on his own. It means he's listening and in tune with my needs, even the little ones. He's thinking of me and wants to make things easier on me because he loves me not because I have to nag.  

Those little things make a big impact in day to day life even though on the surface they seem superficial. But I got scouring pads and emotional reinforcement, he got a kiss and a happy wife. I'd say those are the moments that help make for a happy marriage.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: Traditional Guy 20 on June 08, 2012, 08:09:58 AM
Quote from: wallflower
While we're at it, an anecdote about the little things...

DH made me smile yesterday because he came home with scouring pads. Silly little thing? Absolutely. But it meant more than that. He had a shopping list to pick up on his way home but scouring pads were not on it. I had only mentioned needing them the day before and they hadn't made it to the list but he remembered on his own. It means he's listening and in tune with my needs, even the little ones. He's thinking of me and wants to make things easier on me because he loves me not because I have to nag.  

Those little things make a big impact in day to day life even though on the surface they seem superficial. But I got scouring pads and emotional reinforcement, he got a kiss and a happy wife. Not superficial at all.


DH?
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: wallflower on June 08, 2012, 08:12:52 AM
Sorry, Dear Husband. It's wife internet code.
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: songbird on June 09, 2012, 04:18:25 PM
I see no value in any novel romance book.  Women have had their soap operas and women can do that in their heads, called wrong perceptions.  I think it is of the devil to entertain oneself in their head.  It is a waste of time and you can see there are so many romance books that a whole story can take up just that one category.  Some do it on consignment. They are dangerous and I consider myself to be a lady.  I think the books make a lady look intellectual when they have it in a book and not a sleazy magazine like Playboy. Both to me are the same.  
Title: Women and Romance Novels, Movies, etc
Post by: songbird on June 09, 2012, 04:19:16 PM
I meant to say a "whole Store".