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Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Disputaciones on October 09, 2015, 01:48:03 AM
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I wonder if it is ever allowed to wish for certain people to go to Hell to pay for the evil they have done, if they have escaped justice on this earth and "gotten away with it".
In the revelations of St. Catherine of Sienna, it is said that the blessed will rejoice even if their very mother, father, husband, daughter etc. are sent to Hell, because it is God's will they were sentenced there and their will will be perfectly united to His, perfectly willing all that He wills.
The revelations say the blessed will not be sad about this.
So if in Heaven you won't be sad your very loved ones went to Hell, isn't it allowable to wish for despicable, evil, degenerate evil doers to go to Hell since you have moral certainty they will never convert and die in their evil ways, and that they won't pay for their crimes here?
I thought about this today because today 2 armed men broke into the house of someone very dear to me and they stole everything from her and her mom, but thank God they didn't rape her or the maid or hurt them, who were the only ones in the house at the time. I couldn't help it and I told her "The good thing is that these damned people will pay for it all in Hell".
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I think it's one thing for the saints in Heaven to be pleased with God's justice being done. I suppose we should also be pleased with it being done. But it's something else to hope that someone doesn't repent and gets eternally punished for it. We'll receive the mercy we show others. Best be on the safe side therefore, and pray for people's repentance.
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We cannot wish hell on anyone no matter what their crime. We are supposed to pray for them, for their conversion, not curse them to hell or hope they suffer in hell for their eternity.
We can say they will suffer in hell for their eternity if they don't change, but because the torments are so terrible and are never ending, we say it always with the hope that they will convert before they die.
We can not comprehend the value of one soul nor the severity of the pains of hell, but we know the value of one soul is infinitely greater than the value of the whole world with all it's glory, magnificence and riches, we know this because this was the price the devil would have happily paid when he tempted Our Lord. But without God, people are inclined to evil, some more than others as in your case, but even the Good Thief, St. Dismas repented and won forgiveness from Our Lord.
From the book, "So High The Price":
The optimists object: “Can it be possible that God punishes a momentary sinful pleasure with an eternity of pain?”
It is not only possible, but it is right and just. The offense given by the sinner to God when he transgresses His holy laws involves infinite malice, since it is an offense to infinite Majesty. Therefore, it deserves an infinite punishment. But since man, being finite, is incapable of undergoing punishment that is infinite in intensity, God punishes him with a chastisement infinite in duration. In acting thus, God acts justly.
Consider my son, that if you go to hell, you will never leave it. There, every pain is suffered and suffered forever.
Even when a hundred years have gone by since you went to hell, or a thousand, hell will be just beginning. After a hundred thousand, a hundred million years, after millions of centuries, hell will still be just beginning.
If an angel were to bring news to the damned that God had decided to free them from hell when as many million centuries had passed as there are drops of water in the ocean, leaves on the trees and grains of sand on the earth - if the damned were to hear that, they would be immensely consoled. "True", they would say, "many centuries must yet pass, but some day the time of our freedom will come." In reality, however, such vast stretches of time and more than we can possibly imagine, shall pass and find hell still only beginning.
Every soul damned in hell would be willing to make this agreement with God: "Lord, increase my suffering as much as You will; make me stay here in this place of torment as long as You will, but give me hope that someday You will free me."
But no, this hope, this end to suffering, shall never be. At least if the poor soul of the damned could deceive himself and cheer himself up by thinking, "Who knows? Perhaps some day God will have pity on me and lift me out of this burning inferno."
No, not even that way is open to him, for he will forever see written before him the sentence of his wretched eternity.
"So", he will say, "all this terrible pain, this fire, will never end for me?"
"No," will come the answer. "No, never."
"Will they last forever?"
"Forever - for all eternity."
Oh, eternity! O bottomless pit! O sea without a shore! O endless tunnel! Who does not tremble at the thought of you!
Accursed sin! What tremendous agony you prepare for those who commit you!
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On Facebook, Fr. Paul Nicholson rejoices that Archbishop Lefebvre "died excommunicated."
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If they are so "morally certain" to die unrepentant, then you should find plenty of consolation saying,
"May God's will be done unto them."
That isn't wishing evil, that's wishing God's will. If God plans (or knows) that they will convert at some point, you're not pitting your anger against God's designs.
This isn't my own idea, it comes from a Traditional priest who gave me this advice years ago.
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In all things our desires should mirror the desires of God. His perfect will is that all are saved. His permissive will allows stubborn souls to detach themselves from Him. We should, likewise, desire all are saved.
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If they are so "morally certain" to die unrepentant, then you should find plenty of consolation saying,
"May God's will be done unto them."
That isn't wishing evil, that's wishing God's will. If God plans (or knows) that they will convert at some point, you're not pitting your anger against God's designs.
This isn't my own idea, it comes from a Traditional priest who gave me this advice years ago.
To me that's a bit of a slippery slope and can have an implicit desire that they be lost in it.
God wills that all men be saved, and so should we. Period. Once they have been damned of course, then it's God's will that they be there.
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Should we let Dante off the hook for placing people in hell or do we just chock that up to poetic license or some such thing?
It is said that in a "Last Judgment" by Blessed Fray Angelico that the ministers of justice seem to have a special joy in hurrying off to the pit popes, cardinals, and other ecclesiastics.
I do not mean to imply that either Dante or Angelico were not in accord with Catholic doctrine concerning the topic of this thread.
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We cannot wish hell on anyone no matter what their crime. We are supposed to pray for them, for their conversion, not curse them to hell or hope they suffer in hell for their eternity.
Co, will never end for me?"
"No," will come the answer. "No, never."
"Will they last forever?"
"Forever - for all eternity."
Oh, eternity! O bottomless pit! O sea without a shore! O endless tunnel! Who does not tremble at the thought of you!
Accursed sin! What tremendous agony you prepare for those who commit you!
People are even reminded of hell in NO churches anymore. Conversion of even "good" people isn't ever mentioned. Jєω, Hindu atheists... Pure silence. Even the heretic prots.
A big confusing mess
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I wonder if it is ever allowed to wish for certain people to go to Hell to pay for the evil they have done, if they have escaped justice on this earth and "gotten away with it".
to wish som would go to Hell is the worst thing you can wish on someone. It is a mortal sin. You should go to confession if you do this.
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I thought about this today because today 2 armed men broke into the house of someone very dear to me and they stole everything from her and her mom, but thank God they didn't rape her or the maid or hurt them, who were the only ones in the house at the time. I couldn't help it and I told her "The good thing is that these damned people will pay for it all in Hell".
My mother was murdered by a lunatic. shen he was caught he said that her sast words to him in this life were, "Jesus loves you." I know it is hard to love those who do wrong to us but it is something that pleases God and it cancels out a multitude of sins.
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On Facebook, Fr. Paul Nicholson rejoices that Archbishop Lefebvre "died excommunicated."
I am deeply saddened that Archbishop Lefebvre died excommunicated.
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If they are so "morally certain" to die unrepentant, then you should find plenty of consolation saying,
"May God's will be done unto them."
That isn't wishing evil, that's wishing God's will. If God plans (or knows) that they will convert at some point, you're not pitting your anger against God's designs.
This isn't my own idea, it comes from a Traditional priest who gave me this advice years ago.
The thing is that we normal people do not know who died unrepentant and who died in the state of grace. Therefore I ask god to be merciful because when I die I would like tfat others would pray for the repose of my soul.
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Wishing somehow that a specific person goes to hell is like wishing some guilty person goes to jail. It is not sinful at all, as long as you believe God is just. You are not doing anything wrong with that. You are just making a lawsuit in front of God against them. It is never a fault to make a lawsuit against someone, as long as the judge is just, even you could be bound to loose that lawsuit.
I am sorry to say that some answers like that of poche above is sick. Mathew's answer would be more balanced to me.
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Wishing somehow that a specific person goes to hell is like wishing some guilty person goes to jail.... You are just making a lawsuit in front of God against them....
Oh yes, it's exactly like that! :scratchchin:
Except:
"For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again." - Matthew 7:2
Maybe earthly judges ought also to take into account the record of the man bringing charges against someone before sentencing both of them!
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Wishing somehow that a specific person goes to hell is like wishing some guilty person goes to jail. It is not sinful at all, as long as you believe God is just. You are not doing anything wrong with that. You are just making a lawsuit in front of God against them. It is never a fault to make a lawsuit against someone, as long as the judge is just, even you could be bound to loose that lawsuit.
I am sorry to say that some answers like that of poche above [are] sick. Mathew's answer would be more balanced to me.
While it might seem all right on a natural level, to wish evil on an evildoer, there is a consequence that we ought not overlook.
We could be wrong in our judgment, for some reason unknown to us. Then we would be wishing ultimate damnation on someone who, perhaps after purgatory, would find himself in eternal beatitude. But then we would find ourselves in a sticky situation because in order for us to be saved in eternity too, we would not be able to harbor any ill will toward another who is saved. At that point, we would have had to make the choice between letting go of our animosity toward another toward our redemption, or else hanging on to our animosity toward our own longer purification in purgatory, lest we would not be eligible for such cleansing at all (and find ourselves damned, instead).
The bottom line is, which is more important to us: making sure someone else suffers what we expect they deserve, or our total and unrestrained assent to the will of God, WHATEVER God judges they deserve?
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If they are so "morally certain" to die unrepentant, then you should find plenty of consolation saying,
"May God's will be done unto them."
That isn't wishing evil, that's wishing God's will. If God plans (or knows) that they will convert at some point, you're not pitting your anger against God's designs.
This isn't my own idea, it comes from a Traditional priest who gave me this advice years ago.
It seems to me you may have intended to say the following:
If we are so morally certain that they have died unrepentant, then we should find plenty of consolation saying... etc.
Because the way you have it, "If they are so 'morally certain' to die unrepentant," literally means, if they who die have such moral certainty so as to die unrepentant, which makes no sense. The subjective moral certainty of someone dying is not something that we can use to form our judgments, because it is not known to us.
Additionally, the inappropriate use of quotation marks further obfuscates the meaning of the words, because you are not quoting what someone said with "morally certain," but rather you are putting quotation marks around two words to indicate that by your use of these words you do not mean what the words ought to mean without the quote marks. For otherwise, you wouldn't have used quotation marks there at all. The reason this is inappropriate is that quotation marks are NOT properly used to negate the meaning of words around which they appear. Their proper use is to indicate the very words that someone has already said, or written. To make this even more clear, you wouldn't have put those two words in a quote box in lieu of the quotation marks, would you?
Example:
If they are so morally certain
to die unrepentant, then you should find plenty of consolation saying, May God's will be done unto them.
Whether it's quote marks or a quote box, the function of the quotation ought to be identical: something someone already said.
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Because the way you have it, "If they are so 'morally certain' to die unrepentant," literally means, if they who die have such moral certainty so as to die unrepentant, which makes no sense.
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I'm looking forward to the new Star Wars films. They're sure to be entertaining. (I'm sure they will be entertaining.)
I think we knew what Matthew meant!
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If you sincerely meditate on the reality of Hell it's impossible to wish the most evil of men to go there.
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Wishing somehow that a specific person goes to hell is like wishing some guilty person goes to jail. It is not sinful at all, as long as you believe God is just. You are not doing anything wrong with that. You are just making a lawsuit in front of God against them. It is never a fault to make a lawsuit against someone, as long as the judge is just, even you could be bound to loose that lawsuit.
I am sorry to say that some answers like that of poche above [are] sick. Mathew's answer would be more balanced to me.
While it might seem all right on a natural level, to wish evil on an evildoer, there is a consequence that we ought not overlook.
We could be wrong in our judgment, for some reason unknown to us. Then we would be wishing ultimate damnation on someone who, perhaps after purgatory, would find himself in eternal beatitude. But then we would find ourselves in a sticky situation because in order for us to be saved in eternity too, we would not be able to harbor any ill will toward another who is saved. At that point, we would have had to make the choice between letting go of our animosity toward another toward our redemption, or else hanging on to our animosity toward our own longer purification in purgatory, lest we would not be eligible for such cleansing at all (and find ourselves damned, instead).
The bottom line is, which is more important to us: making sure someone else suffers what we expect they deserve, or our total and unrestrained assent to the will of God, WHATEVER God judges they deserve?
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Very interesting. Though you can't judge, because you aren't the judge. But you can be assertive with God. You can ask God to hurry up a little bit in making justice. We see examples especially in old testament. God is a person that you can interact with. And since he is a judge too, you can make a "lawsuit" against someone in front of him.
Though if you wish someone damned for something other than a sin, it means you are in sin, because it's either you are jealous of him, either you hate your brother which indeed takes to hell. If nevertheless you wish it for something that is sin, you are correct about it. If that person repents, he should be correcting his fault, and problem is resolved. But it is never a sin in itself wishing someone to go to Hell, unless you don't believe God is just.
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Wishing somehow that a specific person goes to hell is like wishing some guilty person goes to jail. It is not sinful at all, as long as you believe God is just. You are not doing anything wrong with that. You are just making a lawsuit in front of God against them. It is never a fault to make a lawsuit against someone, as long as the judge is just, even you could be bound to loose that lawsuit.
I am sorry to say that some answers like that of poche above [are] sick. Mathew's answer would be more balanced to me.
While it might seem all right on a natural level, to wish evil on an evildoer, there is a consequence that we ought not overlook.
We could be wrong in our judgment, for some reason unknown to us. Then we would be wishing ultimate damnation on someone who, perhaps after purgatory, would find himself in eternal beatitude. But then we would find ourselves in a sticky situation because in order for us to be saved in eternity too, we would not be able to harbor any ill will toward another who is saved. At that point, we would have had to make the choice between letting go of our animosity toward another toward our redemption, or else hanging on to our animosity toward our own longer purification in purgatory, lest we would not be eligible for such cleansing at all (and find ourselves damned, instead).
The bottom line is, which is more important to us: making sure someone else suffers what we expect they deserve, or our total and unrestrained assent to the will of God, WHATEVER God judges they deserve?
.
Very interesting. Though you can't judge, because you aren't the judge. But you can be assertive with God. You can ask God to hurry up a little bit in making justice. We see examples especially in old testament. God is a person that you can interact with. And since he is a judge too, you can make a "lawsuit" against someone in front of him.
Though if you wish someone damned for something other than a sin, it means you are in sin, because it's either you are jealous of him, either you hate your brother which indeed takes to hell. If nevertheless you wish it for something that is sin, you are correct about it. If that person repents, he should be correcting his fault, and problem is resolved. But it is never a sin in itself wishing someone to go to Hell, unless you don't believe God is just.
God, Himself, doesn't wish anyone to Hell. God, Himself, in His positive will desires all to go to Heaven. To wish someone to Hell is to be opposed to the positive will of God.
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... But it is never a sin in itself wishing someone to go to Hell, unless you don't believe God is just.
It is... never... a sin in itself wishing someone to go to Hell...
Never? Really? Where did you get that from?