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Author Topic: Wishing people go to Hell  (Read 2903 times)

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Offline Neil Obstat

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Wishing people go to Hell
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2015, 05:32:13 AM »
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  • Quote from: Thomas777
    Wishing somehow that a specific person goes to hell is like wishing some guilty person goes to jail.  It is not sinful at all, as long as you believe God is just. You are not doing anything wrong with that. You are just making a lawsuit in front of God against them. It is never a fault to make a lawsuit against someone, as long as the judge is just, even you could be bound to loose that lawsuit.

    I am sorry to say that some answers like that of poche above [are] sick. Mathew's answer would be more balanced to me.

    While it might seem all right on a natural level, to wish evil on an evildoer, there is a consequence that we ought not overlook.

    We could be wrong in our judgment, for some reason unknown to us.  Then we would be wishing ultimate damnation on someone who, perhaps after purgatory, would find himself in eternal beatitude.  But then we would find ourselves in a sticky situation because in order for us to be saved in eternity too, we would not be able to harbor any ill will toward another who is saved.  At that point, we would have had to make the choice between letting go of our animosity toward another toward our redemption, or else hanging on to our animosity toward our own longer purification in purgatory, lest we would not be eligible for such cleansing at all (and find ourselves damned, instead).

    The bottom line is, which is more important to us:  making sure someone else suffers what we expect they deserve, or our total and unrestrained assent to the will of God, WHATEVER God judges they deserve?

    .
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Wishing people go to Hell
    « Reply #16 on: October 16, 2015, 06:03:12 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    If they are so "morally certain" to die unrepentant, then you should find plenty of consolation saying,

    "May God's will be done unto them."

    That isn't wishing evil, that's wishing God's will. If God plans (or knows) that they will convert at some point, you're not pitting your anger against God's designs.

    This isn't my own idea, it comes from a Traditional priest who gave me this advice years ago.

    It seems to me you may have intended to say the following:

    If we are so morally certain that they have died unrepentant, then we should find plenty of consolation saying... etc.

    Because the way you have it, "If they are so 'morally certain' to die unrepentant," literally means, if they who die have such moral certainty so as to die unrepentant, which makes no sense.  The subjective moral certainty of someone dying is not something that we can use to form our judgments, because it is not known to us.  

    Additionally, the inappropriate use of quotation marks further obfuscates the meaning of the words, because you are not quoting what someone said with "morally certain," but rather you are putting quotation marks around two words to indicate that by your use of these words you do not mean what the words ought to mean without the quote marks.  For otherwise, you wouldn't have used quotation marks there at all.  The reason this is inappropriate is that quotation marks are NOT properly used to negate the meaning of words around which they appear.  Their proper use is to indicate the very words that someone has already said, or written.  To make this even more clear, you wouldn't have put those two words in a quote box in lieu of the quotation marks, would you?

    Example:

    Quote
    If they are so
    Quote
    morally certain
    to die unrepentant, then you should find plenty of consolation saying,
    Quote
    May God's will be done unto them.


    Whether it's quote marks or a quote box, the function of the quotation ought to be identical:  something someone already said.

    .
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    Offline clare

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    Wishing people go to Hell
    « Reply #17 on: October 16, 2015, 06:24:36 AM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    ...
    Because the way you have it, "If they are so 'morally certain' to die unrepentant," literally means, if they who die have such moral certainty so as to die unrepentant, which makes no sense.
    ...

    I'm looking forward to the new Star Wars films. They're sure to be entertaining. (I'm sure they will be entertaining.)

    I think we knew what Matthew meant!

    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Wishing people go to Hell
    « Reply #18 on: October 16, 2015, 06:24:59 AM »
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  • If you sincerely meditate on the reality of Hell it's impossible to wish the most evil of men to go there.

    Offline Thomas777

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    Wishing people go to Hell
    « Reply #19 on: October 16, 2015, 08:52:54 AM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Quote from: Thomas777
    Wishing somehow that a specific person goes to hell is like wishing some guilty person goes to jail.  It is not sinful at all, as long as you believe God is just. You are not doing anything wrong with that. You are just making a lawsuit in front of God against them. It is never a fault to make a lawsuit against someone, as long as the judge is just, even you could be bound to loose that lawsuit.

    I am sorry to say that some answers like that of poche above [are] sick. Mathew's answer would be more balanced to me.

    While it might seem all right on a natural level, to wish evil on an evildoer, there is a consequence that we ought not overlook.

    We could be wrong in our judgment, for some reason unknown to us.  Then we would be wishing ultimate damnation on someone who, perhaps after purgatory, would find himself in eternal beatitude.  But then we would find ourselves in a sticky situation because in order for us to be saved in eternity too, we would not be able to harbor any ill will toward another who is saved.  At that point, we would have had to make the choice between letting go of our animosity toward another toward our redemption, or else hanging on to our animosity toward our own longer purification in purgatory, lest we would not be eligible for such cleansing at all (and find ourselves damned, instead).

    The bottom line is, which is more important to us:  making sure someone else suffers what we expect they deserve, or our total and unrestrained assent to the will of God, WHATEVER God judges they deserve?

    .


    Very interesting. Though you can't judge, because you aren't the judge. But you can be assertive with God. You can ask God to hurry up a little bit in making justice. We see examples especially in old testament. God is a person that you can interact with. And since he is a judge too, you can make a "lawsuit" against someone in front of him.
    Though if you wish someone damned for something other than a sin, it means you are in sin, because it's either you are jealous of him, either you hate your brother which indeed takes to hell. If nevertheless you wish it for something that is sin, you are correct about it. If that person repents, he should be correcting his fault, and problem is resolved. But it is never a sin in itself wishing someone to go to Hell, unless you don't believe God is just.


    Offline JPM

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    Wishing people go to Hell
    « Reply #20 on: October 16, 2015, 10:30:32 AM »
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  • Quote from: Thomas777
    Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Quote from: Thomas777
    Wishing somehow that a specific person goes to hell is like wishing some guilty person goes to jail.  It is not sinful at all, as long as you believe God is just. You are not doing anything wrong with that. You are just making a lawsuit in front of God against them. It is never a fault to make a lawsuit against someone, as long as the judge is just, even you could be bound to loose that lawsuit.

    I am sorry to say that some answers like that of poche above [are] sick. Mathew's answer would be more balanced to me.

    While it might seem all right on a natural level, to wish evil on an evildoer, there is a consequence that we ought not overlook.

    We could be wrong in our judgment, for some reason unknown to us.  Then we would be wishing ultimate damnation on someone who, perhaps after purgatory, would find himself in eternal beatitude.  But then we would find ourselves in a sticky situation because in order for us to be saved in eternity too, we would not be able to harbor any ill will toward another who is saved.  At that point, we would have had to make the choice between letting go of our animosity toward another toward our redemption, or else hanging on to our animosity toward our own longer purification in purgatory, lest we would not be eligible for such cleansing at all (and find ourselves damned, instead).

    The bottom line is, which is more important to us:  making sure someone else suffers what we expect they deserve, or our total and unrestrained assent to the will of God, WHATEVER God judges they deserve?

    .


    Very interesting. Though you can't judge, because you aren't the judge. But you can be assertive with God. You can ask God to hurry up a little bit in making justice. We see examples especially in old testament. God is a person that you can interact with. And since he is a judge too, you can make a "lawsuit" against someone in front of him.
    Though if you wish someone damned for something other than a sin, it means you are in sin, because it's either you are jealous of him, either you hate your brother which indeed takes to hell. If nevertheless you wish it for something that is sin, you are correct about it. If that person repents, he should be correcting his fault, and problem is resolved. But it is never a sin in itself wishing someone to go to Hell, unless you don't believe God is just.


    God, Himself, doesn't wish anyone to Hell.  God, Himself, in His positive will desires all to go to Heaven. To wish someone to Hell is to be opposed to the positive will of God.

    Offline clare

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    Wishing people go to Hell
    « Reply #21 on: October 16, 2015, 10:36:59 AM »
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  • Quote from: Thomas777
    ... But it is never a sin in itself wishing someone to go to Hell, unless you don't believe God is just.

    It is... never... a sin in itself wishing someone to go to Hell...

    Never? Really? Where did you get that from?