Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Liturgical abuse in Catholic churches sui iuris  (Read 839 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline solitary Man

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 64
  • Reputation: +18/-5
  • Gender: Male
Liturgical abuse in Catholic churches sui iuris
« on: December 29, 2023, 11:13:08 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • This is something that has been worrying me, I have seen priests and laypeople who, in addition to not appearing to be in communion with Rome, commit liturgical abuses within their own church.
    at the Coptic Catholic Church in New York
    they held a festival with pagan idols
    https://x.facebook.com/102487428057355/photos/a.102896344683130/425913409048087/?type=3
    in the syro malankara church dancing in the church
    https://youtube.com/shorts/iIq4P0hPdOY?si=--Lgj7iPeinjwpju

    in the Ethiopian Catholic Church
    https://youtu.be/H4Gp9ej2rK4?si=WB2V-8VANrYJ67YF
    Logged

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46826
    • Reputation: +27701/-5146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Liturgical abuse in Catholic churches sui iuris
    « Reply #1 on: December 29, 2023, 03:09:46 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: solitary Man on December 29, 2023, 11:13:08 AM
    in the syro malankara church dancing in the church
    https://youtube.com/shorts/iIq4P0hPdOY?si=--Lgj7iPeinjwpju

    I didn't look at the others, but this one didn't appear to be "Liturgical" in nature, though otherwise inappropriate in a church.  I imagine they don't have a parish "hall" and so used the church for that purpose.

    Maronite do use altar girls (in many places) and have re-arranged their sanctuary Novus Ordo style with the table ... but otherwise remain valid (no real changes to their actual Liturgy).

    Byzantines / Ukrainians in general have not adopted any such innovations.
    Logged

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46826
    • Reputation: +27701/-5146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Liturgical abuse in Catholic churches sui iuris
    « Reply #2 on: December 29, 2023, 03:30:09 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: solitary Man on December 29, 2023, 11:13:08 AM
    in the Ethiopian Catholic Church
    https://youtu.be/H4Gp9ej2rK4?si=WB2V-8VANrYJ67YF

    Not sure if this was Liturgical either or something they did after their Liturgy.  Interestingly, many/most of the women were wearing veils or otherwise had their heads covered.  I know nothing about the Ethiopian Liturgy, but they were singing something that sounded somewhat like it could be a religious chant ... but apart from that I have no idea what's going on here.
    Logged

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46826
    • Reputation: +27701/-5146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Liturgical abuse in Catholic churches sui iuris
    « Reply #3 on: December 29, 2023, 03:36:16 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: solitary Man on December 29, 2023, 11:13:08 AM
    at the Coptic Catholic Church in New York
    they held a festival with pagan idols
    https://x.facebook.com/102487428057355/photos/a.102896344683130/425913409048087/?type=3

    How exactly is this Liturgical?  They had some Egyptian festival, probably in the church hall (since a church would not accommodate such a thing).  Ukrainians have Ukrainian festivals, Italians Italian festivals, Polish Polish festivals, etc.  They say they were showcasing Egyptian history and displaying some "statuettes".  There's no indication that these were necessarily "pagan idols", but then the Vatican museum is filled with statues of pagan gods (for purposes of historical interest).  So I don't see that there's any real issue with this one.  The way you characterized it made it sound like they were incorporating pagan idols into their "Liturgical" practices, as if they were doing the old Pachamama worship ... but there's absolutely no indication here about anything of the sort.
    Logged

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46826
    • Reputation: +27701/-5146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Liturgical abuse in Catholic churches sui iuris
    « Reply #4 on: December 29, 2023, 03:39:38 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • And how are these groups not "in communion with Rome"?  They're "Catholic" Churches:  Coptic Catholic, Ethiopian Catholic, and Syro-Malankara Catholic, right?
    Logged

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1062
    • Reputation: +808/-157
    • Gender: Male
    • γνῶθι σεαυτόν - temet nosce
    Re: Liturgical abuse in Catholic churches sui iuris
    « Reply #5 on: December 29, 2023, 04:17:14 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
    • The Ethiopian rite properly and historically has a type of dancing by clergy and laity as part of the liturgy. What is normal in some of the eastern lituorgical families can seen odd if not offensive to westerners whose whole frame of reference is ... well ... the West.
    Logged
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46826
    • Reputation: +27701/-5146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Liturgical abuse in Catholic churches sui iuris
    « Reply #6 on: December 29, 2023, 05:08:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on December 29, 2023, 04:17:14 PM
    The Ethiopian rite properly and historically has a type of dancing by clergy and laity as part of the liturgy. What is normal in some of the eastern lituorgical families can seen odd if not offensive to westerners whose whole frame of reference is ... well ... the West.

    Thanks.  I didn't know that it was something they did historically, so it's not an example of some inculturation or later accommodation to secularism.  We do read about King David dancing before the Ark.

    Another example might be that Latin Rite Traditional Catholics often take offense at the fact that Eastern Rite faithful stand during most of the Sacred Liturgy and there's very little (if any) kneeling involved.
    Logged

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1062
    • Reputation: +808/-157
    • Gender: Male
    • γνῶθι σεαυτόν - temet nosce
    Re: Liturgical abuse in Catholic churches sui iuris
    « Reply #7 on: December 29, 2023, 08:23:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Ethiopian Rite for the Nativity of our Lord

    I am not sure if these are Catholics or Monophysites. The Monophysites have preserved ad orientem liturgy whilst many Catholic Ethiopians have adopted versus populum in recent decades.
    Logged
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    - Nicolás Gómez Dávila
    Pages: [1]
    « previous next »