Presently my better half has the iud, I've been staying away but it's getting desperate now, I gave her a link to the cervical mucus method which she read up on and says no way she would do it, are there any other methods that we;re missing which are better? also if anyone has any church teachings that absolve the man from any mortal sin when he has relations with a wife who uses contraception I'm all ears, for now I believe it would be a mortal sin for me to have relations with the wife.
Quote from: goochPresently my better half has the iud, I've been staying away but it's getting desperate now, I gave her a link to the cervical mucus method which she read up on and says no way she would do it, are there any other methods that we;re missing which are better? also if anyone has any church teachings that absolve the man from any mortal sin when he has relations with a wife who uses contraception I'm all ears, for now I believe it would be a mortal sin for me to have relations with the wife.
Have you even talked to a priest about this yet?
Quote from: parentsfortruthQuote from: goochPresently my better half has the iud, I've been staying away but it's getting desperate now, I gave her a link to the cervical mucus method which she read up on and says no way she would do it, are there any other methods that we;re missing which are better? also if anyone has any church teachings that absolve the man from any mortal sin when he has relations with a wife who uses contraception I'm all ears, for now I believe it would be a mortal sin for me to have relations with the wife.
Have you even talked to a priest about this yet?
my priest mentioned family planning, I gave my wife a link and she read up on it and freaked out.
Remember the vow about freely welcoming children? God's will. Not your lifestyle or at your convenience.
Start breaking the vows you end up breaking the marriage, talk to a priest, both of you.
But it sounds like already your communication has broken down. Work fast.
I agree, if it means the breakdown of my marriage I don't see a way out...anone hve experience with the following, Popular types of natural family planning include the rhythm method, and the basal body temperature method.
We need traditional Catholic doctors. And nurses.
It seems many in the medical profession are liberals or end up liberals.
Presently my better half has the iud, I've been staying away but it's getting desperate now, I gave her a link to the cervical mucus method which she read up on and says no way she would do it, are there any other methods that we;re missing which are better? also if anyone has any church teachings that absolve the man from any mortal sin when he has relations with a wife who uses contraception I'm all ears, for now I believe it would be a mortal sin for me to have relations with the wife.
Quote from: goochPresently my better half has the iud, I've been staying away but it's getting desperate now, I gave her a link to the cervical mucus method which she read up on and says no way she would do it, are there any other methods that we;re missing which are better? also if anyone has any church teachings that absolve the man from any mortal sin when he has relations with a wife who uses contraception I'm all ears, for now I believe it would be a mortal sin for me to have relations with the wife.
IMHO the best avenue is to find someone who teaches the Creighton Method, and go together to the class. I think there is a wonderful chance you're wife will be amazed at what Creighton has to offer. I would be willing to talk to you both of you, if you feel comfortable. Creighton blew me away, and it made our marriage much stronger.
Pax,
Tarpeian
Quote from: UrsusRemember the vow about freely welcoming children? God's will. Not your lifestyle or at your convenience.
Start breaking the vows you end up breaking the marriage, talk to a priest, both of you.
But it sounds like already your communication has broken down. Work fast.
I agree, if it means the breakdown of my marriage I don't see a way out...anone hve experience with the following, Popular types of natural family planning include the rhythm method, and the basal body temperature method.
You are absolved of culpability if your wife insists on using artificial contraception against your objections. Love her. Pray for her. Remember there are the things that we can control and there are the things that we cannot control and it is true wisdom to know the difference.
Quote from: goochPresently my better half has the iud, I've been staying away but it's getting desperate now, I gave her a link to the cervical mucus method which she read up on and says no way she would do it, are there any other methods that we;re missing which are better? also if anyone has any church teachings that absolve the man from any mortal sin when he has relations with a wife who uses contraception I'm all ears, for now I believe it would be a mortal sin for me to have relations with the wife.
IMHO the best avenue is to find someone who teaches the Creighton Method, and go together to the class. I think there is a wonderful chance you're wife will be amazed at what Creighton has to offer. I would be willing to talk to you both of you, if you feel comfortable. Creighton blew me away, and it made our marriage much stronger.
Pax,
Tarpeian
Quote from: TarpeianQuote from: goochPresently my better half has the iud, I've been staying away but it's getting desperate now, I gave her a link to the cervical mucus method which she read up on and says no way she would do it, are there any other methods that we;re missing which are better? also if anyone has any church teachings that absolve the man from any mortal sin when he has relations with a wife who uses contraception I'm all ears, for now I believe it would be a mortal sin for me to have relations with the wife.
IMHO the best avenue is to find someone who teaches the Creighton Method, and go together to the class. I think there is a wonderful chance you're wife will be amazed at what Creighton has to offer. I would be willing to talk to you both of you, if you feel comfortable. Creighton blew me away, and it made our marriage much stronger.
Pax,
Tarpeian
Are you guys talking about ways to engage in conjugal acts while removing the possibility of pregnancy?
Quote from: Capt McQuiggQuote from: TarpeianQuote from: goochPresently my better half has the iud, I've been staying away but it's getting desperate now, I gave her a link to the cervical mucus method which she read up on and says no way she would do it, are there any other methods that we;re missing which are better? also if anyone has any church teachings that absolve the man from any mortal sin when he has relations with a wife who uses contraception I'm all ears, for now I believe it would be a mortal sin for me to have relations with the wife.
IMHO the best avenue is to find someone who teaches the Creighton Method, and go together to the class. I think there is a wonderful chance you're wife will be amazed at what Creighton has to offer. I would be willing to talk to you both of you, if you feel comfortable. Creighton blew me away, and it made our marriage much stronger.
Pax,
Tarpeian
Are you guys talking about ways to engage in conjugal acts while removing the possibility of pregnancy?
she is so I'm stuck, I'm open o morekids but she isn't
You are absolved of culpability if your wife insists on using artificial contraception against your objections. Love her. Pray for her. Remember there are the things that we can control and there are the things that we cannot control and it is true wisdom to know the difference.
gooch,
Please read the testimony of Gloria Polo (she has received the permission of her bishop to share her story) who was struck by lightening and died after receiving third degree burns to her internal organs including ovaries, uterus, and breasts BECAUSE SHE WAS USING AN IUD.
http://www.gloria.polo.ortiz.in/
Quote from: UrsusRemember the vow about freely welcoming children? God's will. Not your lifestyle or at your convenience.
Start breaking the vows you end up breaking the marriage, talk to a priest, both of you.
But it sounds like already your communication has broken down. Work fast.
I agree, if it means the breakdown of my marriage I don't see a way out...anone hve experience with the following, Popular types of natural family planning include the rhythm method, and the basal body temperature method.
We don't need natural family planning, which is nothing more than Catholic birth control. We need supernatural family planning. Pray, pray, pray the Rosary together. Try to pray all 15 decades each day. Our Lady will solve your serious dilemma. She has promised that there is no problem too great which cannot be solved by the Holy Rosary. Believe it!
Is she bothered by the lack of sex or just you?
If the latter, and she has recently had a child, then I would suggest simply holding on and being very nice to her but not instigating sex. Difficult, I know, but fools rush in where angels....
Women's hormones make them crazy as a fox at times.
Who wears the trousers? ( be honest as some advice is useless or counterproductive if she is a Cosmopolitan reader.
We know she is culturally pro contraception but is she against divorce? the two don't always go hand in hand. Would divorcing you be a personal failure in her mind? Would her parents think she was stupid for losing you or sympathise with her for following her heart?
Quote from: ggreg
Who wears the trousers? ( be honest as some advice is useless or counterproductive if she is a Cosmopolitan reader.
We know she is culturally pro contraception but is she against divorce? the two don't always go hand in hand. Would divorcing you be a personal failure in her mind? Would her parents think she was stupid for losing you or sympathise with her for following her heart?
she's 40, we have a 8, 6, 1 yr old, she simply wants no more kids, she says she's done, she's exhausted, but she also mentioned other reasons as financial , chance of her getting sick ...as for the trousers I say she doesn't accept my authority, she's a modern woman, she says she has given in to allthe drastic changes I have forced onthe family in recent years..ie my stance agains vaccines..I won the battle, my insistence we eat organic, I won the battle..she says this is the straw that broke the camel's back..as for divorce she mentioned it the other night, then the day after she mentioned she couldn't live without me, I think it's her desperate plea to have me consent to her wishes, we both agree that if she would divorce all our friends and family would side with her as everyone thinks my views on life are extreme
Have you thought about a mutual vow of abstinence? Could she live with that?
Could you?
Think about it. That way she is not committing the sin of contraception nor the sin of withholding. She is relieved of the terror of getting into a difficult situation.
How much do you love each other and the children? Or is it all based on puffed
up worldly desires
Quote from: ggreg
Who wears the trousers? ( be honest as some advice is useless or counterproductive if she is a Cosmopolitan reader.
We know she is culturally pro contraception but is she against divorce? the two don't always go hand in hand. Would divorcing you be a personal failure in her mind? Would her parents think she was stupid for losing you or sympathise with her for following her heart?
she's 40, we have a 8, 6, 1 yr old, she simply wants no more kids, she says she's done, she's exhausted, but she also mentioned other reasons as financial , chance of her getting sick ...as for the trousers I say she doesn't accept my authority, she's a modern woman, she says she has given in to allthe drastic changes I have forced onthe family in recent years..ie my stance agains vaccines..I won the battle, my insistence we eat organic, I won the battle..she says this is the straw that broke the camel's back..as for divorce she mentioned it the other night, then the day after she mentioned she couldn't live without me, I think it's her desperate plea to have me consent to her wishes, we both agree that if she would divorce all our friends and family would side with her as everyone thinks my views on life are extreme
She doesn't have much longer to go because she's 40.
Be nice and complaisant but simply tell her that what she's doing is obviously incompatible with your deepest beliefs (because of the abortifacient nature of the IUD) and there is nothing more to discuss.
You might relax your position in some other less important areas of disagreement and make some concessions to her.
However, I think it's best to disregard the idea that her excuses are the reason she doesn't want another baby.
"I won't have another baby because you wouldn't accept vaccination and made me eat organic"
That's ridiculous, those aren't the reasons. The problem really is as you say, her relatives who should be telling her to do what she's told for the sake of the marriage and children.
You're not a control freak if you truly believe vaccines cause autism, you were taking a calculated risk. You might have been factually wrong, that doesn't make you a control freak, you were making a decision in order to avoid what you considered an unacceptable risk.
yes, yes, yes
But back in the real world let's focus on the problem that Gooch has and not how we would solve it in your fantasy middle-earth kingdom.
Unfortunately, none of us has a time machine.
How is he supposed to protect himself? Any parent or married person is constantly at the mercy of the family court.Quote from: goochQuote from: ggreg
Who wears the trousers? ( be honest as some advice is useless or counterproductive if she is a Cosmopolitan reader.
We know she is culturally pro contraception but is she against divorce? the two don't always go hand in hand. Would divorcing you be a personal failure in her mind? Would her parents think she was stupid for losing you or sympathise with her for following her heart?
she's 40, we have a 8, 6, 1 yr old, she simply wants no more kids, she says she's done, she's exhausted, but she also mentioned other reasons as financial , chance of her getting sick ...as for the trousers I say she doesn't accept my authority, she's a modern woman, she says she has given in to allthe drastic changes I have forced onthe family in recent years..ie my stance agains vaccines..I won the battle, my insistence we eat organic, I won the battle..she says this is the straw that broke the camel's back..as for divorce she mentioned it the other night, then the day after she mentioned she couldn't live without me, I think it's her desperate plea to have me consent to her wishes, we both agree that if she would divorce all our friends and family would side with her as everyone thinks my views on life are extreme
I have a friend who ended up in a similar situation, the wife divorced him, he probably could have written most of what you had written. It started with contraception. If she starts talking divorce, I'm hoping it would never come to that, but sometimes things get better and get worse again. I don't mean to scare you, but really think about how you might have to protect yourself and your children. Consider legal things. When in-laws get involved, they can influence your spouse and it can just spiral out of control. I've seen a traditional Catholic mother and also a father have nearly all parental rights taken away, and I guess I am very sensitive to that word "divorce" being used. Courts do not find favor with us in these situations.
I know this isn't what you asked about, but I really felt I should give you some friendly words of caution. I hope it all works out, and that good St. Joseph will guide you though this.
He can rectify them.
He can apologize for being controlling on unnecessary things and win back her trust and confidence for the necessary things he WILL continue to insist on.
Give and take. It is a difficult concept for you, I know, but work with me on this.
Give and take. Say it three times.
Get your parents to babysit, and, taking your wife away for a long weekend somewhere nice, tell her that you have been an asshat and apologise to her for being domineering, this will surprise her. Explain that you care about her soul, your marriage and your children's souls and from now on are only going to focus on those things.
Win back her trust and her love. Find someway to stop wasting time (we all waste time on the internet) and earn a bit more money AND spend more time helping her out around the home. Every weekend ask her for a list of three to five small DIY or cleaning jobs she would like done. May her feel like Queen of the home. My wife is always most interested in sex when I have repaired the dryer or done something manly around the house or spent hours playing with the children. When I've watched a movie for two hours she is less interested.
How is he supposed to protect himself? Any parent or married person is constantly at the mercy of the family court.
What you learned from your father is basically Christians with worldly values. Keep up appearances and don't do anything that would keep your from being comfortable. Nothing to do with internalized morals of right and wrong.
Quote from: ggregHe can rectify them.
He can apologize for being controlling on unnecessary things and win back her trust and confidence for the necessary things he WILL continue to insist on.
Give and take. It is a difficult concept for you, I know, but work with me on this.
Give and take. Say it three times.
Ggreg we aren't playing cards trading to win go fish. This is a marriage, contraception, and potential murder we are talking here.
So what's your marital situation Tiffany?
Didn't you get divorced or live with someone or marry a foreigner and it didn't work out or something like that?
Quote from: TiffanyQuote from: ggregHe can rectify them.
He can apologize for being controlling on unnecessary things and win back her trust and confidence for the necessary things he WILL continue to insist on.
Give and take. It is a difficult concept for you, I know, but work with me on this.
Give and take. Say it three times.
Ggreg we aren't playing cards trading to win go fish. This is a marriage, contraception, and potential murder we are talking here.
Which is why, if you bother to read my post, I have not suggest he lets the Ace of Contraception slip from his hand but rather offers up his 4, 7 and Jack to the middle of the table for a reshuffle.
How much you TRULY care about Gooch's situation is demonstrated by the fact that rather than offer alternative constructive advice to him, you attempt to deconstruct the advice of other posters. Why not simply post yourself and let Gooch decide?
Like most prigs you don't really care about the children of an anonymous stranger on the internet, though you will scream blue murder that you do, as long as your weird little rules are followed.
Quote from: ggregSo what's your marital situation Tiffany?
Didn't you get divorced or live with someone or marry a foreigner and it didn't work out or something like that?
Nice comment in there questioning my virtue.
The problem here is straight-up feminism, "my body, my choice" and notice that the man is being assigned blame by the feminist enabler here. This is what happens when relations and other people make excuses for feminine immorality.
Ggreg you goal was just to demean me, otherwise you would not have suggested that I whore around.Quote from: TiffanyQuote from: ggregSo what's your marital situation Tiffany?
Didn't you get divorced or live with someone or marry a foreigner and it didn't work out or something like that?
Nice comment in there questioning my virtue.
Why not answer the question. I thought I read you married a foreigner and got divorced, but I might be confusing you with someone else.
Are you long term happily married to a Catholic yourself and on your first marriage. Since you picked apart my advice we might as well put all of our cards on the table. Then Gooch can consider our credibility in light of this.
Quote from: ggregGgreg you goal was just to demean me, otherwise you would not have suggested that I whore around.Quote from: TiffanyQuote from: ggregSo what's your marital situation Tiffany?
Didn't you get divorced or live with someone or marry a foreigner and it didn't work out or something like that?
Nice comment in there questioning my virtue.
Why not answer the question. I thought I read you married a foreigner and got divorced, but I might be confusing you with someone else.
Are you long term happily married to a Catholic yourself and on your first marriage. Since you picked apart my advice we might as well put all of our cards on the table. Then Gooch can consider our credibility in light of this.
I replied to him months ago and was not picking apart anything. http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/contraception-2
Quote from: TelesphorusThe problem here is straight-up feminism, "my body, my choice" and notice that the man is being assigned blame by the feminist enabler here. This is what happens when relations and other people make excuses for feminine immorality.
Well, assuming there is only one person to blame, there is a good chance he is the one to blame, since there are only two people involved.
If the blame is shared, then I am blaming him because he is the one posting and asking for advice. Blaming his wife is not constructive. Obviously she is at fault for getting an IUD, but she's not asking for advice.
Let's assume that you, Tele, are completely correct in your views of how to deal with women and Gooch brings home a stick as thin as his finger and gives her a damn good spanking, or stands there and uses phrases, like exceedingly evil, interloper, ungodly and vicious attack.
How is Mrs Gooch going to react. Here is a women who after the last baby had a coil fitted. She's hardly likely to agree with her husband and run off to fetch his pipe and slippers. Softly, softly catch a monkey.
There is a reason you have never had a girlfriend or a wife Tele and it is because you lack empathy. You lack an understanding that to get from A to B is sometimes a journey. People don't just beam there like Captain Kirk. You probably scare the living crap out of women for this reason.
I've made millions of dollars in business by changing people's minds and making them think about things from a different perspective. I know a thing or two about practical human psychology and insisting on a person eating and entire moral menu all at once is a good way to guarantee they will vomit it up.
Here lies the body of William Day.
Who died maintaining his right of way.
He was right, dead right as he sped along,
But he is just as dead, as if he were wrong.
Same old argument, men with honest values lack empathy are cruel, and it's such a bunch of hogwash, just the opposite is true, they are the most empathetic and caring.
The hogwash is that men with traditional values who reject feminism lack empathy and are uncaring.Quote from: Tiffany
Same old argument, men with honest values lack empathy are cruel, and it's such a bunch of hogwash, just the opposite is true, they are the most empathetic and caring.
With my hogwash I am happily married.
With your honest values, you are divorced.
Proof of the pudding my dear is in the eating.
Quote from: ggregThe hogwash is that men with traditional values who reject feminism lack empathy and are uncaring.Quote from: Tiffany
Same old argument, men with honest values lack empathy are cruel, and it's such a bunch of hogwash, just the opposite is true, they are the most empathetic and caring.
With my hogwash I am happily married.
With your honest values, you are divorced.
Proof of the pudding my dear is in the eating.
PFT he doesn't have to agree for her to divorce him.
What isn't legitimate and who is he proving it to?
Annulment or not it would steal mean the breakup of his family? I don't get what that has to do with his situation?
Also, if she is Catholic, they would have to get an annulment for her to carry on with someone else, and he definitely would easily be able to prove that it's not legitimate.
Quote from: TiffanyWhat isn't legitimate and who is he proving it to?
Annulment or not it would steal mean the breakup of his family? I don't get what that has to do with his situation?
I don't know what state he lives in. Some states have "no fault" divorces, and some states have different rules on it. Sometimes one side has to prove that there was fault in a divorce. The point is, he would be able to show in the future to the children, if she did really try to go through with this, that he was doing the right thing in the eyes of God.
Divorce is a secular thing. The Catholic Church does not grant divorces, so this would be merely a civil matter and a grave sin on her part in the eyes of God.
If she did seek an annulment, then she would have to prove that her marriage was illegitimate from the beginning.
Vaccines are a huge risk. All you have to do is ask my sister who has two that are nearly entirely dependent on my sister for almost everything. They were perfectly fine babbling babies when they got those vaccines.
Quote from: parentsfortruthAlso, if she is Catholic, they would have to get an annulment for her to carry on with someone else, and he definitely would easily be able to prove that it's not legitimate.
Let me quantify this better. Maybe that came out wrong. If she is catholic, she would have to get an annulment to be able to try to be with someone else, if that was her goal.
The husband would be able to prove that the marriage was legit from the beginning, and -her asking- for the annulment has no ground and would be able to stop her from obtaining one.
Let me quantify this better. Maybe that came out wrong. If she is catholic, she would have to get an annulment to be able to try to be with someone else, if that was her goal.
Quote from: parentsfortruthVaccines are a huge risk. All you have to do is ask my sister who has two that are nearly entirely dependent on my sister for almost everything. They were perfectly fine babbling babies when they got those vaccines.
Very sorry to hear this, but "your sister" is not a double blind clinical trial. Your are letting a personal experience cloud your judgement about something and you don't have any objective proof that they were perfectly fine babbling babies and did not have those problems latent waiting to come out.
Correlation does not imply causation.
1000s of children have those same vaccines and don't develop any problems, so vaccines are not a "huge" risk.
Quote from: parentsfortruth
Let me quantify this better. Maybe that came out wrong. If she is catholic, she would have to get an annulment to be able to try to be with someone else, if that was her goal.
She's using a IUD or Coil. She's hardly likely to care about the Church's opinion on her marital status.
I have a 12 year old autistic child, who also seemed 'normal' as a baby, so I have read quite a bit yes.
Quote from: ggregI have a 12 year old autistic child, who also seemed 'normal' as a baby, so I have read quite a bit yes.
And you're still flag waving for vaccines?
While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church. You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.
Your goal should be to convince her to use no contraception and the only way to do that is to remove her fear that you will force her to produce more babies. She is nearing menopause anyway and her fertility is declining.
Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up. Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife. Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control. While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church. You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.
I agree I know women 46 - 48 that are still having babies. :baby:Quote from: ZeitunWhile you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church. You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.
Your goal should be to convince her to use no contraception and the only way to do that is to remove her fear that you will force her to produce more babies. She is nearing menopause anyway and her fertility is declining.
Good advice, though I question how he makes a convincing argument to the bit in red above.
If she removes the coil, biologically speaking the only way she can be sure and therefore have no fear is if they do not have sex until the menopause.
Otherwise he can lessen the fear, but he cannot remove it. She might get pregnant again.
The Wind and the Sun were disputing which was the stronger. Suddenly they saw a traveller coming down the road, and the Sun said: "I see a way to decide our dispute. Whichever of us can cause that traveller to take off his cloak shall be regarded as the stronger. You begin." So the Sun retired behind a cloud, and the Wind began to blow as hard as it could upon the traveller. But the harder he blew the more closely did the traveller wrap his cloak round him, till at last the Wind had to give up in despair. Then the Sun came out and shone in all his glory upon the
traveller, who soon found it too hot to walk with his cloak on.
And by the way, I wouldn't give the MMR jab to my children not because I question its connection with autism but simply because I don't think Measles, Mumps or German Measles (Rubella) are particularly dangerous and doing 3 inoculations at once does seem like a money saving exercise.you are one twisted person.. we are to disregard what we feel are safety measures for our children because we welcome all children
But, if my wife REALLY wanted to give them inoculations, then I would seek out the most ethical and least risky way of doing it, and take some minor risks for the sake of keeping her happy and feeling like what she thinks actually matters. She gave birth to them after all.
I would research it on the internet and discuss it with her in bed. Get her input and go for that option. That is what successful married couples do.
In the end what do the "risks" matter anyway? Why are so called Traditional Catholics so afraid of autism or vaccines causing some minor risk of death or other problems? My son is great. Love him to bits. He cannot commit a mortal sin, is assured of salvation, has lots of younger brothers and sisters to look after him when I've gone. My other children might all disappoint me and lose their souls, but he cannot.
I thought Trads were supposed to welcome the crosses God sends. :confused1:
Why for the sake of a very slight reduction of risk (even if you buy the whole MMR connection, the chances are less than 1%), would you drive a wedge between yourself and your wife and thereby risk your marriage and your entire family's eternal souls?
That's just short sighted.
Quote from: Zeitun
Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up. Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife. Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control. While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church. You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.
His wife has an IUD, threatening divorce because he won't go along with a mortals sin, and he is being accused of ruling her with an iron rod and not loving her?
Zeitun you claim to be traditional and not a feminist but this is right from them.
ETA: to be more polite :)
Quote from: ZeitunWhile you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church. You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.
Your goal should be to convince her to use no contraception and the only way to do that is to remove her fear that you will FORCE her to produce more babies. She is nearing menopause anyway and her fertility is declining.
Good advice, though I question how he makes a convincing argument to the bit in red above.
If she removes the coil, biologically speaking the only way she can be 'sure' and therefore have 'no fear' is if they do not have sex until the menopause.
Otherwise he can lessen the fear, but he cannot remove it. She might get pregnant again.
And yes, I know she might get pregnant on the coil, but she perceives that as a lot safer than any NFP method. Perception is reality as far as any argument Gooch is making goes. At least at the start.
Quote from: ggregQuote from: ZeitunWhile you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church. You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.
Your goal should be to convince her to use no contraception and the only way to do that is to remove her fear that you will FORCE her to produce more babies. She is nearing menopause anyway and her fertility is declining.
Good advice, though I question how he makes a convincing argument to the bit in red above.
If she removes the coil, biologically speaking the only way she can be 'sure' and therefore have 'no fear' is if they do not have sex until the menopause.
Otherwise he can lessen the fear, but he cannot remove it. She might get pregnant again.
And yes, I know she might get pregnant on the coil, but she perceives that as a lot safer than any NFP method. Perception is reality as far as any argument Gooch is making goes. At least at the start.
I actually don't believe her biggest fear is pregnancy. I think her biggest fear is that he doesn't care about her and her "needs". Remember his wife is not a real Catholic so her "needs" would be worldly (which I think he's already stated). Again I believe the issue is control not babies. Note the word "force" above.
Non-Catholics don't care about morality and truth the way Catholics do so those arguments will backfire. He has to appeal to her common sense and vanity. Unfortunately. Conversion is possible. I speak from experience.
I am not married. It doesn't take being married to recognize the feminist influenced pop marriage advice.Quote from: TiffanyQuote from: Zeitun
Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up. Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife. Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control. While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church. You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.
His wife has an IUD, threatening divorce because he won't go along with a mortals sin, and he is being accused of ruling her with an iron rod and not loving her?
Zeitun you claim to be traditional and not a feminist but this is right from them.
ETA: to be more polite :)
Are you married?
Quote from: ZeitunI am not married. It doesn't take being married to recognize the feminist influenced pop marriage advice.Quote from: TiffanyQuote from: Zeitun
Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up. Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife. Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control. While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church. You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.
His wife has an IUD, threatening divorce because he won't go along with a mortals sin, and he is being accused of ruling her with an iron rod and not loving her?
Zeitun you claim to be traditional and not a feminist but this is right from them.
ETA: to be more polite :)
Are you married?
The best solution is the one that is no longer on the table and that is - do not marry a non-Trad Catholic girl.
Quote from: TiffanyQuote from: ZeitunI am not married. It doesn't take being married to recognize the feminist influenced pop marriage advice.Quote from: TiffanyQuote from: Zeitun
Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up. Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife. Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control. While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church. You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.
His wife has an IUD, threatening divorce because he won't go along with a mortals sin, and he is being accused of ruling her with an iron rod and not loving her?
Zeitun you claim to be traditional and not a feminist but this is right from them.
ETA: to be more polite :)
Are you married?
Tiffany,
By your own admission you know very little about the Faith and you lack politeness.
Would you like me to go through this entire forum and post all your quasi-feminist statements?
And my "feminist-influenced pop marriage advice" comes from Fr. Pfeiffer who has been ministering to my family for a while. So perhaps I should quit listening to him and start listening to you?
No Tiffany, a divorced woman doesn't know the first thing about marriage so be quiet please.
Quote from: Capt McQuiggThe best solution is the one that is no longer on the table and that is - do not marry a non-Trad Catholic girl.
Great Captain. I am sure that is great advice for every NON-Trad man when he gets married. All men should marry Trad-Girls, just in case they want to convert later.
The OP unfortunately was not a Catholic when he married his wife and missed your memo.
Had he known he would convert 12 years later though, this would have been valuable advice.
Now can we get back to the problem of the OP, Gooch?
Quote from: TiffanyQuote from: ZeitunI am not married. It doesn't take being married to recognize the feminist influenced pop marriage advice.Quote from: TiffanyQuote from: Zeitun
Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up. Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife. Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control. While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church. You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.
His wife has an IUD, threatening divorce because he won't go along with a mortals sin, and he is being accused of ruling her with an iron rod and not loving her?
Zeitun you claim to be traditional and not a feminist but this is right from them.
ETA: to be more polite :)
Are you married?
Tiffany,
By your own admission you know very little about the Faith and you lack politeness.
Would you like me to go through this entire forum and post all your quasi-feminist statements?
And my "feminist-influenced pop marriage advice" comes from Fr. Pfeiffer who has been ministering to my family for a while. So perhaps I should quit listening to him and start listening to you?
No Tiffany, a divorced woman doesn't know the first thing about marriage so be quiet please.
Quote from: parentsfortruthQuote from: ggregI have a 12 year old autistic child, who also seemed 'normal' as a baby, so I have read quite a bit yes.
And you're still flag waving for vaccines?
and the fact that autism has increased at hundreds of percent in the last 30 years ought to tell any addle brained person that there's something WRONG with the vaccines
It might be one of many other factors. Not least the widespread use of the contraceptive pill and hormones in the drinking water. Additives in food.
And that is assuming that there is any statistically significant rise at all.
http://www.asatonline.org/about_autism/ontherise
I'm not waving the flag for vaccines. Just for calm and rational thinking and not assuming there is a conspiracy boogie man around every corner.
I can't see that the NWO can both want to abort handicapped children while also, at the same time, want to make perfectly healthy children deliberated handicapped. That seems counter-productive if you want to build a godless masonic utopia.
And by the way, I wouldn't give the MMR jab to my children not because I question its connection with autism but simply because I don't think Measles, Mumps or German Measles (Rubella) are particularly dangerous and doing 3 inoculations at once does seem like a money saving exercise.
But, if my wife REALLY wanted to give them inoculations, then I would seek out the most ethical and least risky way of doing it, and take some minor risks for the sake of keeping her happy and feeling like what she thinks actually matters. She gave birth to them after all.
I would research it on the internet and discuss it with her in bed. Get her input and go for that option. That is what successful married couples do.
In the end what do the "risks" matter anyway? Why are so called Traditional Catholics so afraid of autism or vaccines causing some minor risk of death or other problems? My son is great. Love him to bits. He cannot commit a mortal sin, is assured of salvation, has lots of younger brothers and sisters to look after him when I've gone. My other children might all disappoint me and lose their souls, but he cannot.
I thought Trads were supposed to welcome the crosses God sends. :confused1:
Why for the sake of a very slight reduction of risk (even if you buy the whole MMR connection, the chances are less than 1%), would you drive a wedge between yourself and your wife and thereby risk your marriage and your entire family's eternal souls?
That's just short sighted.
Zeutin I'm not getting into a ___ contest with someone on the internet. It's a public board, if you want to repost my posts, you are free to. I try to reject feminism and try to especially encourage young women towards traditional values when I interact with them.
Again a person doesn't need to be married to recognize feminism.
Quote from: ggregAnd by the way, I wouldn't give the MMR jab to my children not because I question its connection with autism but simply because I don't think Measles, Mumps or German Measles (Rubella) are particularly dangerous and doing 3 inoculations at once does seem like a money saving exercise.
But, if my wife REALLY wanted to give them inoculations, then I would seek out the most ethical and least risky way of doing it, and take some minor risks for the sake of keeping her happy and feeling like what she thinks actually matters. She gave birth to them after all.
I would research it on the internet and discuss it with her in bed. Get her input and go for that option. That is what successful married couples do.
In the end what do the "risks" matter anyway? Why are so called Traditional Catholics so afraid of autism or vaccines causing some minor risk of death or other problems? My son is great. Love him to bits. He cannot commit a mortal sin, is assured of salvation, has lots of younger brothers and sisters to look after him when I've gone. My other children might all disappoint me and lose their souls, but he cannot.
I thought Trads were supposed to welcome the crosses God sends. :confused1:
Why for the sake of a very slight reduction of risk (even if you buy the whole MMR connection, the chances are less than 1%), would you drive a wedge between yourself and your wife and thereby risk your marriage and your entire family's eternal souls?
That's just short sighted.
So knowing that mercury is poisonous and giving children shots, because we're "supposed to accept crosses that God sends?" A TOTALLY PREVENTABLE THING? Just don't get the shot? Is a virtuous act to POISON your child? "Because we should accept the crosses God sends?" That's warped.
I'm sure if these parents with autism on this board had KNOWN about these things BEFORE the shots, they would NEVER have given them.
There are fetal stem cells in many of these shots, which ALONE is against our religion. THE END does not justify THE MEANS.
Quote from: parentsfortruthQuote from: ggregAnd by the way, I wouldn't give the MMR jab to my children not because I question its connection with autism but simply because I don't think Measles, Mumps or German Measles (Rubella) are particularly dangerous and doing 3 inoculations at once does seem like a money saving exercise.
But, if my wife REALLY wanted to give them inoculations, then I would seek out the most ethical and least risky way of doing it, and take some minor risks for the sake of keeping her happy and feeling like what she thinks actually matters. She gave birth to them after all.
I would research it on the internet and discuss it with her in bed. Get her input and go for that option. That is what successful married couples do.
In the end what do the "risks" matter anyway? Why are so called Traditional Catholics so afraid of autism or vaccines causing some minor risk of death or other problems? My son is great. Love him to bits. He cannot commit a mortal sin, is assured of salvation, has lots of younger brothers and sisters to look after him when I've gone. My other children might all disappoint me and lose their souls, but he cannot.
I thought Trads were supposed to welcome the crosses God sends. :confused1:
Why for the sake of a very slight reduction of risk (even if you buy the whole MMR connection, the chances are less than 1%), would you drive a wedge between yourself and your wife and thereby risk your marriage and your entire family's eternal souls?
That's just short sighted.
So knowing that mercury is poisonous and giving children shots, because we're "supposed to accept crosses that God sends?" A TOTALLY PREVENTABLE THING? Just don't get the shot? Is a virtuous act to POISON your child? "Because we should accept the crosses God sends?" That's warped.
I'm sure if these parents with autism on this board had KNOWN about these things BEFORE the shots, they would NEVER have given them.
There are fetal stem cells in many of these shots, which ALONE is against our religion. THE END does not justify THE MEANS.
There are not fetal stem cells in many of the shots you ignoramus. How could that possibly be? You think they liquidize babies and make shots out of them? Cells injected into people would be attacked by your immune system.
Some of the vaccines use fetal stem cell lines, from many many years ago. i.e. Cells that have been grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, before any vaccines are tested on them.
Yes, originally those cells came from an aborted baby but given that they already exist and the lines exist and the damage has been done and the baby died decades ago the Church has stated that it is OK to have these inoculations.
If you found out that your grandfather took a cutting of a rare and valuable imported tree, trespassed on someone's land in 1901 to do it and that man called the police and had him arrested for trespass and theft, would you go and cut down the 100 year old tree that the cutting grew from because good cannot come from evil acts?
In some way would you be in possession of a stolen rare tree?
Ive read this whole thread. Some of you have been working feverishly to derail it. Now, we are talking about organic food and vaccinations. ggreg, your posts are very well put, and you have very good advice.
My misguided zeal (im a convert also) caused much friction in my marriage and it caused a divorce. I became a Catholic in 1961. After that the church immediately started changing. I overreacted and felt like I had to continually fight for the faith. My husband went Novus Ordo. I look back over the years, and think of how I could have reacted differently to many situations. I could write a book on the subject.
Believe me, divorce puts an end to your family and any goals you could have had for your children becoming good catholics.
Ggreg is who you should listen to, gooch. I, like others here, would suggest you get counseling from a TRADITIONAL priest only. He will be able to guide you on how to treat your wife, and what is morally acceptible. Stay away from the "p r e s b y t e r s " .
Ive read this whole thread. Some of you have been working feverishly to derail it. Now, we are talking about organic food and vaccinations. ggreg, your posts are very well put, and you have very good advice.
My misguided zeal (im a convert also) caused much friction in my marriage and it caused a divorce. I became a Catholic in 1961. After that the church immediately started changing. I overreacted and felt like I had to continually fight for the faith. My husband went Novus Ordo. I look back over the years, and think of how I could have reacted differently to many situations. I could write a book on the subject.
Believe me, divorce puts an end to your family and any goals you could have had for your children becoming good catholics.
Ggreg is who you should listen to, gooch. I, like others here, would suggest you get counseling from a TRADITIONAL priest only. He will be able to guide you on how to treat your wife, and what is morally acceptible. Stay away from the "p r e s b y t e r s " .
Well, assuming there is only one person to blame, there is a good chance he is the one to blame, since there are only two people involved.
If the blame is shared, then I am blaming him because he is the one posting and asking for advice. Blaming his wife is not constructive. Obviously she is at fault for getting an IUD, but she's not asking for advice.
Let's assume that you, Tele, are completely correct in your views of how to deal with women and Gooch brings home a stick as thin as his finger and gives her a damn good spanking, or stands there and uses phrases, like exceedingly evil, interloper, ungodly and vicious attack.
How is Mrs Gooch going to react. Here is a women who after the last baby had a coil fitted. She's hardly likely to agree with her husband and run off to fetch his pipe and slippers. Softly, softly catch a monkey.
There is a reason you have never had a girlfriend or a wife Tele and it is because you lack empathy. You lack an understanding that to get from A to B is sometimes a journey. People don't just beam there like Captain Kirk. You probably scare the living crap out of women for this reason.
I've made millions of dollars in business by changing people's minds and making them think about things from a different perspective.
I know a thing or two about practical human psychology and insisting on a person eating and entire moral menu all at once is a good way to guarantee they will vomit it up.
Quote from: EmerentianaIve read this whole thread. Some of you have been working feverishly to derail it. Now, we are talking about organic food and vaccinations. ggreg, your posts are very well put, and you have very good advice.
My misguided zeal (im a convert also) caused much friction in my marriage and it caused a divorce. I became a Catholic in 1961. After that the church immediately started changing. I overreacted and felt like I had to continually fight for the faith. My husband went Novus Ordo. I look back over the years, and think of how I could have reacted differently to many situations. I could write a book on the subject.
Believe me, divorce puts an end to your family and any goals you could have had for your children becoming good catholics.
Ggreg is who you should listen to, gooch. I, like others here, would suggest you get counseling from a TRADITIONAL priest only. He will be able to guide you on how to treat your wife, and what is morally acceptible. Stay away from the "p r e s b y t e r s " .
I think you should write a book about this, or at least an article. I know a marriage that ended in divorce, and the story was almost identical to yours. It was very sad, the result of the divorce was that the wife lost educational custody and all of their children went to public school.
And that my friends is why 'the resistance' will never survive and thrive. It is made up of perfectionists, pedants, prigs and purists who will never be able to reach a consensus on anything. A house divided against itself and all that good stuff.
Anyway Gooch I will bow out, because this thread will otherwise degenerate into a sh!tfest but please come back in a year or two and resurrect the thread and give us and future readers the benefit of hindsight. If you save your marriage how did you do it and if you didn't, what you could have done better if you had a second chance.
How would the woman react if her whole family told her husband was right and said they'd never accept her leaving her husband. If they told her she was to blame and her excuses were pathetic she'd never act this way. Catholics do not support injustice.
You're absolutely right of course. But it doesn't sound like the family agrees with Gooch. Sounds like he's on his own.
Every priests I've talked to on the issue of a non-Catholic spouse said the same thing--stand your ground but win them over with charity.
This is one of the worst parts of marriage--the inability to force a spouse to do the right thing and live a virtuous life.
I cannot believe anyone would say you aren't married because your standards are too high. Impossible. Wish more men had your standards.
Ever notice how the liberal never admits men are rejected for actually accepting the religion. A woman rejects a man because he doesn't want to practice contraception, wants to follow traditional courtship, or commit to marriage, etc etc, but in ggreg's pathological BS-world, it's because of lack of empathy.
Copyright 2006, Pope Paul VI Institute for the Study of Human Reproduction. All rights reserved.
Tarpeian, you're not going to make friends here linking crap like this.
Paul VI was a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ. Last thing people want to read is about a birth control method that's name is somehow attached to this disgraceful human being.
And that my friends is why 'the resistance' will never survive and thrive. It is made up of perfectionists, pedants, prigs and purists who will never be able to reach a consensus on anything. A house divided against itself and all that good stuff.
Attack me all you want. It's not judging "as the hypocrites do" to call our feminist thought.Quote from: TiffanyZeutin I'm not getting into a ___ contest with someone on the internet. It's a public board, if you want to repost my posts, you are free to. I try to reject feminism and try to especially encourage young women towards traditional values when I interact with them.
Again a person doesn't need to be married to recognize feminism.
Tiffany,
You've not been shy about posting details of your disordered life. Perhaps you should take Our Lord's advice and not judge as the hypocrites do. It's certainly not the womanly thing to do to accuse others of feminism without first examining your own conscience.
God bless!!!! :cheers:
"He was controlling, so I had to leave him" - how many so-called trads will accept that excuse at face value from women - how many Catholic men see themselves blamed for their wives abandoning the religion and abandoning their responsibilities?
I don't think it's an exaggeration to say this justification of women's horrible behavior and their knowledge that interlopers will support them, even at their own church, for breaking up their families, is one of the major reasons for the high divorce rate, particularly for religious men.
Being a pious man means getting a kick in the teeth from the liberals in the congregation when the worst happens.
Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up. Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife. Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control. While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church. You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.
Gooch, according to the other thread you converted around two years ago or less.
So it's not like your wife married you with a full and frank understanding of what she was letting himself in for. You weren't from a family of 9 kids with all of your brothers and sisters having 6 or more.
From her perspective you have moved the goalposts on her. She was at least a decade into a marriage where she thought she could use contraception and all of a suddenly she is not only dealing with a convert's zeal (famous for causing these and other problems) but a bunch of other stuff like trousers, broccoli and inoculations.
Blimey man, can't you see what has happened here?
Turn the dial back a little. Turn the volume down. Let her slowly absorb the new you.
With that I wish you luck and I have deals to do.
Quote from: Telesphorus"He was controlling, so I had to leave him" - how many so-called trads will accept that excuse at face value from women - how many Catholic men see themselves blamed for their wives abandoning the religion and abandoning their responsibilities?
I don't think it's an exaggeration to say this justification of women's horrible behavior and their knowledge that interlopers will support them, even at their own church, for breaking up their families, is one of the major reasons for the high divorce rate, particularly for religious men.
Being a pious man means getting a kick in the teeth from the liberals in the congregation when the worst happens.Quote from: Zeitun
Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up. Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife. Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control. While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church. You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.
It's his fault for his heavy-handedness and not loving her.
Quote from: TiffanyQuote from: Telesphorus"He was controlling, so I had to leave him" - how many so-called trads will accept that excuse at face value from women - how many Catholic men see themselves blamed for their wives abandoning the religion and abandoning their responsibilities?
I don't think it's an exaggeration to say this justification of women's horrible behavior and their knowledge that interlopers will support them, even at their own church, for breaking up their families, is one of the major reasons for the high divorce rate, particularly for religious men.
Being a pious man means getting a kick in the teeth from the liberals in the congregation when the worst happens.Quote from: Zeitun
Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up. Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife. Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control. While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church. You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.
It's his fault for his heavy-handedness and not loving her.
How presumptuous.
So, Gooch has a major moral dilemma in his family because he married a girl who is nonchalant and sees herself as the ultimate creator by using birth control. That's where she is morally and it's a state of mortal sin.
Gooch is stuck with this. Gooch has screwed the pooch! In a manner of speaking.
So, what's Gooch to do now?
I say follow the advice I gave earlier. Sanctify himself with prayer, sacrifice, assisting at the Traditional Catholic Mass ONLY and bring his children with him. Sanctify himself and then sanctify the children.
It's a process and it may take months.
Gooch will have to pray the Rosary daily with intentions for his wife and her conversion and for the children that they may embrace fully the Traditional Catholic faith.
Gooch will need to refrain from all immoral practices, giving up all porn, lust, and even limit his intake of TV.
Gooch will need to go to a Traditional Catholic priest for a General Confession. This will take much prayer and meditation on Gooch's part and then he will have to have the courage to go into the confessional and spill the beans entirely.
Gooch will need to be patient with his wife but he will also have to spell it out for her that what she is doing is repulsive from a secular point of view but absolute death of the soul in the supernatural realm. He will have to revisit this conversation several times. If his wife divorces him over this, then she probably possesses a rancid soul.
Gooch should also start to purchase plaster statues of Catholic saints, in particular Our Lady, have them blessed by a priest and then display them in prominent spots in the home. Consecrate the home to the Sacred Heart.
There should be a crucifix in every room (except the bathroom).
Gooch has to take a stand and make a change. Change is good if it's in the direction of embracing the Traditional Catholic faith.
When a guy marries a girl who is openly using birth control, he probably has a lot of problems in addition to the wife. So Gooch will have to single out these problems and conquer them one after the other.
It's even possible that Gooch, by asking for advice on this forum, may not even be the intended beneficiary of this advice. The blessings may be reserved for one of his children or one of his grandchildren.
The blessing may even be for the child his wife gives birth to after she gets rid of that absolutely soul-killing and rancid practice of birth control.
I wish Gooch all the luck in the world and may God bless him.
My advice is discuss with a priest.As for NFP, I am not married but very much against NFP. It's not right.The providence of God will determine how many children a married couple have.The talk of charts and like is not of God.
Quote from: Telesphorus"He was controlling, so I had to leave him" - how many so-called trads will accept that excuse at face value from women - how many Catholic men see themselves blamed for their wives abandoning the religion and abandoning their responsibilities?
I don't think it's an exaggeration to say this justification of women's horrible behavior and their knowledge that interlopers will support them, even at their own church, for breaking up their families, is one of the major reasons for the high divorce rate, particularly for religious men.
Being a pious man means getting a kick in the teeth from the liberals in the congregation when the worst happens.Quote from: Zeitun
Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up. Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife. Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control. While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church. You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.
It's his fault for his heavy-handedness and not loving her.
Stay in touch with the priest and know that we are praying for your family.Quote from: John GraceMy advice is discuss with a priest.As for NFP, I am not married but very much against NFP. It's not right.The providence of God will determine how many children a married couple have.The talk of charts and like is not of God.
I agree, I talked it over briefly with the priest in confession and he said shouldn't have relations, as for nfp if I'm being totally honest my thinking is that God can't condemn me for giving in to the wife if she's practising nfp, as of now with the iud if I give in I believe I will be rightfully condemned by God
Quote from: TiffanyQuote from: Telesphorus"He was controlling, so I had to leave him" - how many so-called trads will accept that excuse at face value from women - how many Catholic men see themselves blamed for their wives abandoning the religion and abandoning their responsibilities?
I don't think it's an exaggeration to say this justification of women's horrible behavior and their knowledge that interlopers will support them, even at their own church, for breaking up their families, is one of the major reasons for the high divorce rate, particularly for religious men.
Being a pious man means getting a kick in the teeth from the liberals in the congregation when the worst happens.Quote from: Zeitun
Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up. Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife. Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control. While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church. You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.
It's his fault for his heavy-handedness and not loving her.
why do you say I don't love her? what exactly was my heavy handedness, which issue are yousaying I should have been more lenient? should I still be going to the novus order mass? would this be loving her more?
Quote from: ggregI agree I know women 46 - 48 that are still having babies. :baby:Quote from: ZeitunWhile you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church. You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.
Your goal should be to convince her to use no contraception and the only way to do that is to remove her fear that you will force her to produce more babies. She is nearing menopause anyway and her fertility is declining.
Good advice, though I question how he makes a convincing argument to the bit in red above.
If she removes the coil, biologically speaking the only way she can be sure and therefore have no fear is if they do not have sex until the menopause.
Otherwise he can lessen the fear, but he cannot remove it. She might get pregnant again.
The Wind and the Sun were disputing which was the stronger. Suddenly they saw a traveller coming down the road, and the Sun said: "I see a way to decide our dispute. Whichever of us can cause that traveller to take off his cloak shall be regarded as the stronger. You begin." So the Sun retired behind a cloud, and the Wind began to blow as hard as it could upon the traveller. But the harder he blew the more closely did the traveller wrap his cloak round him, till at last the Wind had to give up in despair. Then the Sun came out and shone in all his glory upon the
traveller, who soon found it too hot to walk with his cloak on.
Quote from: Novus WeirdoQuote from: TiffanyQuote from: Telesphorus"He was controlling, so I had to leave him" - how many so-called trads will accept that excuse at face value from women - how many Catholic men see themselves blamed for their wives abandoning the religion and abandoning their responsibilities?
I don't think it's an exaggeration to say this justification of women's horrible behavior and their knowledge that interlopers will support them, even at their own church, for breaking up their families, is one of the major reasons for the high divorce rate, particularly for religious men.
Being a pious man means getting a kick in the teeth from the liberals in the congregation when the worst happens.Quote from: Zeitun
Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up. Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife. Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control. While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church. You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.
It's his fault for his heavy-handedness and not loving her.
How presumptuous.
Go back a few pages and read the exchange between us.
Quote from: TiffanyQuote from: Novus WeirdoQuote from: TiffanyQuote from: Telesphorus"He was controlling, so I had to leave him" - how many so-called trads will accept that excuse at face value from women - how many Catholic men see themselves blamed for their wives abandoning the religion and abandoning their responsibilities?
I don't think it's an exaggeration to say this justification of women's horrible behavior and their knowledge that interlopers will support them, even at their own church, for breaking up their families, is one of the major reasons for the high divorce rate, particularly for religious men.
Being a pious man means getting a kick in the teeth from the liberals in the congregation when the worst happens.Quote from: Zeitun
Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up. Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife. Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control. While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church. You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.
It's his fault for his heavy-handedness and not loving her.
How presumptuous.
Go back a few pages and read the exchange between us.
I did do that and saw where you took a small portion of an earlier post and twisted it to fit your agenda. You may think it was clever and that no one would catch it but TASS and Pravda were doing it before you were born. No one cares what your agenda is, that is, IF you kept it to yourself. But your feminist philosophy, your feminist need, to get out and subject the world to your oinks and belches that you think we want to hear (which we don't) under the guise of being 'strong' and 'having a voice' only leads people to confusion and to question what should be done as opposed to what you think should be done. To be blunt, this was a man posting about a man's issue. Why do you need to interject YOUR opinion?
You're an angry woman. I can understand that since you've broadcast it in other posts. Divorced, not annulled (strike one); admitted acquaintances with people of questionable moral substance (strike two); prone to completely non-Catholic feminist views (strike three)... Yet you thought it would all be handy ammo when you got on this forum, thinking that by being worldly you would somehow know more than others who have been here a while and who are much more knowledgeable in terms of Catholic doctrine. In other words, people who live it. I cannot include myself in that but I can recognize what I am and what I'm not. I don't think you can say the same. Have you ever heard of TMI? Anyone can go through your posts and see your life story, which is quite Protestant (did you ever lose that weight? You posted about it a while ago. Just checking...). You've made yourself quite public and you expect the contents of your life to be sympathetic let alone Catholic? Hilarious!
Again, your best option right now is to attain some self-awareness and leave marriage advice to people who are actually married. Keep in mind that men are not always the problem and that the Virgin Mary did not wear a pink ribbon.
Yet you thought it would all be handy ammo when you got on this forum, thinking that by being worldly you would somehow know more than others who have been here a while and who are much more knowledgeable in terms of Catholic doctrine.
Hello Gooch!
The only advice I can give you from experience is that prayer is ultimately the most efficient means whereby one may prevail against the obduracy of those whom we love: for it is not one who endeavors to change the other person but heavenly grace that liberates our loved ones' free volition from attachment to self and other temporary things. Such grace, however, it to be sought by prayer and penance.
Self-abandonment to the will of God, devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the earnest practice of the theological and moral virtues will enable you to be an exemplar whom your wife will acknowledge if only her free will is unburdened by self-attached and self-will. I would recommend you focus your energy on your children, praying for them, teaching them by word and deed, &c., so that your wife may awaken to the sublimity and profundity of the Catholic faith in all its luminosity. Perhaps if she sees how much your love the children and how you are all jealousy for their eternal welfare and the greater good of the household, maybe she too will remember that she does not belong to herself insofar as she is now a mother: a mother is never her own, and a married woman finds her freedom in maternity, and ultimately her salvation. This is as St. Thomas teaches when he comments on how St. Paul exhorts women to bear children: "Bear children, and not kill them secretly by abortion: yet she shall be saved through childbearing, if she continue in the faith [I Tim. v. 14]" ("Filios procreare, et non eos occulte occidere per abortum. Supra II, 15: salvabitur autem per filiorum generationem, si permanserit in fide," super I Tim. cap. v. lect. 2).
I especially recommend devotion to the Miraculous Infant Jesus of Prague. Please be assured of my prayers.(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/Texts/MiraculousInfantJesusofPrague1_zpsc940adc7.jpg)
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/Texts/MiraculousInfantJesusofPrague2_zps3f133556.jpg)
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/Texts/MiraculousInfantJesusofPrague3_zpsa908033d.jpg)
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/Texts/MiraculousInfantJesusofPrague4_zps7b7a9c36.jpg)
Quote from: TiffanyQuote from: Telesphorus"He was controlling, so I had to leave him" - how many so-called trads will accept that excuse at face value from women - how many Catholic men see themselves blamed for their wives abandoning the religion and abandoning their responsibilities?
I don't think it's an exaggeration to say this justification of women's horrible behavior and their knowledge that interlopers will support them, even at their own church, for breaking up their families, is one of the major reasons for the high divorce rate, particularly for religious men.
Being a pious man means getting a kick in the teeth from the liberals in the congregation when the worst happens.Quote from: Zeitun
Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up. Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife. Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control. While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church. You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.
It's his fault for his heavy-handedness and not loving her.
why do you say I don't love her? what exactly was my heavy handedness, which issue are yousaying I should have been more lenient? should I still be going to the novus order mass? would this be loving her more?
Quote from: ggregGooch, according to the other thread you converted around two years ago or less.
So it's not like your wife married you with a full and frank understanding of what she was letting himself in for. You weren't from a family of 9 kids with all of your brothers and sisters having 6 or more.
From her perspective you have moved the goalposts on her. She was at least a decade into a marriage where she thought she could use contraception and all of a suddenly she is not only dealing with a convert's zeal (famous for causing these and other problems) but a bunch of other stuff like trousers, broccoli and inoculations.
Blimey man, can't you see what has happened here?
Turn the dial back a little. Turn the volume down. Let her slowly absorb the new you.
With that I wish you luck and I have deals to do.
yes I have moved the goal posts on her, not sure though are you advocating I give in to her? when you say turn the volume down I believe i am doing that, but unless I give in I don't see how else I can turn the dial back...as for trading in other issues for this one that won't fly, she's into the organic food, I don' force her to go to the mass every sunday..she understands the kids will never be vaccinated again...
Quote from: goochQuote from: ggregGooch, according to the other thread you converted around two years ago or less.
So it's not like your wife married you with a full and frank understanding of what she was letting himself in for. You weren't from a family of 9 kids with all of your brothers and sisters having 6 or more.
From her perspective you have moved the goalposts on her. She was at least a decade into a marriage where she thought she could use contraception and all of a suddenly she is not only dealing with a convert's zeal (famous for causing these and other problems) but a bunch of other stuff like trousers, broccoli and inoculations.
Blimey man, can't you see what has happened here?
Turn the dial back a little. Turn the volume down. Let her slowly absorb the new you.
With that I wish you luck and I have deals to do.
yes I have moved the goal posts on her, not sure though are you advocating I give in to her? when you say turn the volume down I believe i am doing that, but unless I give in I don't see how else I can turn the dial back...as for trading in other issues for this one that won't fly, she's into the organic food, I don' force her to go to the mass every sunday..she understands the kids will never be vaccinated again...
You said she felt you had railroaded her on a lot of other issues which she had given in on.
Turn the volume down means saying you are willing to consider with an open heart ALL of the issues that don't involve mortally sinful immediate grave matter for the one that does, the one that WILL destroy your marriage. The issue that no Traditionalist Catholic and many a novus Ordo Catholic would or could tolerate.
Basically you have to shock and surprise her and make her reconsider you as a husband. Right now she is thinking through the pros and cons of divorce. What does that tell you about her state of mind?
Without breaking down the walls of her personal Alamo she is not going to back down. You are otherwise at an impasse. In my view and experience, 18 months without sɛҳuąƖ intercourse with your wife over an issue like this is a HUGE problem. In effect you past a sign on the road saying "slow down dangerous cliffs ahead" and you have ignored it.
And let's face it, your methods have not worked or you would not be here seeking advice. The definition of stupid is carrying on doing the same thing and expecting a different result.
Want the harsh truth? Your wife is either cheating on you or masturbating and thinking about other men. You've allowed that to happen with the enforced abstinence.
You are closer to the cliff edge than you think. If you stand on principal now, you will fall down that cliff and as a man in America, Australia or Britain today the courts are basically going to chew you up and spit you out.
Yes, I am saying handle her differently to the way you have been. Because the way you have been handling her lead to her essentially not trusting in you to provide the emotional support for a fourth child. Let's face it, with the spacing you had, she was only going to have 1 more anyway, worst case 2 before the menopause.Ggreg you are worse than crazy women trying to meddle and put thoughts into someone's head.
Why did she get the IUD fitted?
Moreover, I doubt you are as in tune with what she is doing and thinking as you'd like to think, or you would not be in this pickle in the first place. Women are famous for being two faced and cold about these things. They can compartmentalise very well and then switch from night to day. So she might not be cheating with a flesh and blood person but do you really think she has gone without any relief for the last 18 months? You are a 40 year old guy and know how the world turns.
Why would she? She has an IUD she is hardly going to worry about masturbation and you are not with her 24x7.
And finally Gooch, if she's not going to leave you then why post in the first place? Stop kidding yourself. When a woman throws the word divorce around it means she's thought about it.
Best of luck, I have a weekend of stuff to do.
Yes, I am saying handle her differently to the way you have been. Because the way you have been handling her lead to her essentially not trusting in you to provide the emotional support for a fourth child. Let's face it, with the spacing you had, she was only going to have 1 more anyway, worst case 2 before the menopause.
Why did she get the IUD fitted? Deep down what were HER reasons.
Moreover, I doubt you are as in tune with what she is doing and thinking as you'd like to think, or you would not be in this pickle in the first place. Women are famous for being two faced and cold about these things. They can compartmentalise very well and then switch from night to day. So she might not be cheating with a flesh and blood person but do you really think she has gone without any relief for the last 18 months? You are a 40 year old guy and know how the world turns.
Why would she? She has an IUD she is hardly going to worry about masturbation and you are not with her 24x7.
And finally Gooch, if she's not going to leave you then why post in the first place? Stop kidding yourself. When a woman throws the word divorce around it means she's thought about it.
Best of luck, I have a weekend of stuff to do.
but if I do give in then for sure I save my marriage, but at what cost..my soul?
Quote from: ggreg
Why would she? She has an IUD she is hardly going to worry about masturbation and you are not with her 24x7.
And finally Gooch, if she's not going to leave you then why post in the first place? Stop kidding yourself. When a woman throws the word divorce around it means she's thought about it.
Best of luck, I have a weekend of stuff to do.
it has nothing to do with the emotional support for a 4th child, she's feeling run down and tired, but if I do give in then for sure I save my marriage, but at what cost..my soul? as for her not leaving this is what I feel, she's threatened but I don't think she'll pull the trigger, but if I do nothing she will continue to be miserable which I don't want, this is the pickle I'm in
Quote from: goochQuote from: ggreg
Why would she? She has an IUD she is hardly going to worry about masturbation and you are not with her 24x7.
And finally Gooch, if she's not going to leave you then why post in the first place? Stop kidding yourself. When a woman throws the word divorce around it means she's thought about it.
Best of luck, I have a weekend of stuff to do.
it has nothing to do with the emotional support for a 4th child, she's feeling run down and tired, but if I do give in then for sure I save my marriage, but at what cost..my soul? as for her not leaving this is what I feel, she's threatened but I don't think she'll pull the trigger, but if I do nothing she will continue to be miserable which I don't want, this is the pickle I'm in
I do think this is a good topic and a personal trouble that we can all hopefully learn from.
If your wife was sick, would you leave her? Of course not. It's a similar situation with a crisis of faith.
Listen to her, love her, encourage to undo the problem BUT don't be forceful and overbearing. You don't want her to pull back more. Yes, what she's doing is wrong.
Your soul is not in danger if you're intimate with her so get that out of your head.
Don't push her away or deny her affection. Fulfill your role as a husband in all respects.
found this, although I don't put too much stock in it
http://churchmilitant.tumblr.com/sexquestions
4 - Are both spouses guilty of a mortal sin if one chooses to use a contraceptive against the others will?
No. If a man decides to have a vasectomy against his wife’s will, she may still have sex with him and not be guilty. Likewise, if a woman is taking birth control pills against a husband’s wished, he may still have sex with her and remain guilt free.
Quote from: goochfound this, although I don't put too much stock in it
http://churchmilitant.tumblr.com/sexquestions
4 - Are both spouses guilty of a mortal sin if one chooses to use a contraceptive against the others will?
No. If a man decides to have a vasectomy against his wife’s will, she may still have sex with him and not be guilty. Likewise, if a woman is taking birth control pills against a husband’s wished, he may still have sex with her and remain guilt free.
Pius XI teaches the same thing in Casti Connubii:
"59. Holy Church knows well that not infrequently one of the parties is sinned against rather than sinning, when for a grave cause he or she reluctantly allows the perversion of the right order. In such a case, there is no sin, provided that, mindful of the law of charity, he or she does not neglect to seek to dissuade and to deter the partner from sin."
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_31121930_casti-connubii_en.html
Notice an effort to correct the spouse must be made, even if it doesn't succeed. If there is no practical change, keep praying that she has a change of heart. There's nothing more you can do. But there's no obligation to abstain.
If your conscience still troubles you, talk to a priest for reassurance (don't go near a Novus Ordo priest, and find an absolutely traditional one who teaches that NFP can only be used for a grave reason). He will tell you the same as Pius XI, but it often helps to have a priest's personal assurance that you are doing nothing wrong, and he may pray for your wife as well. Have a Mass said for your intention (that your wife stops using this method).
Some homonal BC pills are abortifacient also.
Hormonal contraception ascribes a three-fold action to these agents. 1. inhibition of ovulation, 2. inhibition of sperm transport, and 3. production of a ‘hostile endometrium’, which prevents or disrupts implantation of the developing baby if the first two mechanisms fail.
If the wife continues to use an IUD, the husband may be forced to live separately. A separation would be for his spiritual welfare. A wife who is anti-life, or pro-death, is to be shunned.
It's not permitted to divorce and remarry but separation is perfectly acceptable.
If this isn't feasible, then the husband should sleep in a separate bedroom and avoid his wife as much as possible.
I don't want to say that there are times when a man needs to cut his losses because these are issues a man has to work out to his own satisfaction befoer he even asks a lady to marry him.
If the wife continues to use an IUD, the husband may be forced to live separately. A separation would be for his spiritual welfare. A wife who is anti-life, or pro-death, is to be shunned.In general if you seperate you may need a civil divorce to protect your right to your children. Unfortunately we don't live in a Christian society that respects the family.
It's not permitted to divorce and remarry but separation is perfectly acceptable.
If this isn't feasible, then the husband should sleep in a separate bedroom and avoid his wife as much as possible.
I don't want to say that there are times when a man needs to cut his losses because these are issues a man has to work out to his own satisfaction befoer he even asks a lady to marry him.
I doubt any traditional priest would advise, knowing what an IUD does, to continue having relations with a wife if she's that self loathing of herself to do that.
That doesn't mean we do immoral things with them.Quote from: parentsfortruth
I doubt any traditional priest would advise, knowing what an IUD does, to continue having relations with a wife if she's that self loathing of herself to do that.
I got down voted before, but trust St Paul and the good Bishop on this. The unbeliving wife is sanctified by the believing husband.
Crisis of faith, same thing. His story here is about an atheist who ended up becoming a priest after his wife died, 19:00 mark here:
ArchBishop Sheen Marriage and Incompatibility (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtMKPaG7vVA&sns=em)
She did procreate. She had 3 children. It is not helpful at this stage to speculate on whether she had a long term plan. The OP considers himself married and three children need a mother and father. Retroactive speculation does not help.
It is more likely his wife is tired and feels incapable of having more children.
60 years ago nobody would have obtained an annulment if their wife got herself sterilised at 40 after 3 children. Now they are handed out like confetti and idiots like you whisper into the ears of men who should be trying to save their marriages, not run away like cowards.
Quote from: ggregShe did procreate. She had 3 children. It is not helpful at this stage to speculate on whether she had a long term plan. The OP considers himself married and three children need a mother and father. Retroactive speculation does not help.
It is more likely his wife is tired and feels incapable of having more children.
60 years ago nobody would have obtained an annulment if their wife got herself sterilised at 40 after 3 children. Now they are handed out like confetti and idiots like you whisper into the ears of men who should be trying to save their marriages, not run away like cowards.
You can't even listen to yourself. Someday you might come by this board years from now and read what you're saying and see how utterly ridiculous you sound. SHE PROCREATED ON HER OWN TERMS. Now she's choosing to leave God out of the equation completely.
And yes, she "feels" incapable, but with some prayers from her husband, she can regain that confidence. To just say "DERP OH WELL, SHE IS JUST GOING TO POTENTIALLY KILL OUR NEXT ONE! FIRE AWAY!" No, that is not the Catholic way to handle this situation.
gooch,
Please read the testimony of Gloria Polo (she has received the permission of her bishop to share her story) who was struck by lightening and died after receiving third degree burns to her internal organs including ovaries, uterus, and breasts BECAUSE SHE WAS USING AN IUD.
http://www.gloria.polo.ortiz.in/
Quote from: Zeitungooch,
Please read the testimony of Gloria Polo (she has received the permission of her bishop to share her story) who was struck by lightening and died after receiving third degree burns to her internal organs including ovaries, uterus, and breasts BECAUSE SHE WAS USING AN IUD.
http://www.gloria.polo.ortiz.in/
Hey I wanted to thank you for this link, I read it, and tried to get the wife to read it, she finally read a few pages and she seems to at least change her tune somewhat, she talked to songbird about nfp and while she's not convinced it will work she hinted to trying it and mentioned abstinence...better than hearing about divorce.
Call home from work to see if she needs help or you to pick up anything. Come home early and tell her you will watch the kids for an hour so she can have a break, Etc.
You get more with honey than vinegar with women so show EMPATHY and be there. Work on being a supportive husband and make sure you tell her you love her and appreciate her. So many men have problems with words but it is worth it. Ask her to pray with you about it.
Most importantly LOVE her and make sure she knows it. Don't give up.