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Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Conspiracy_Factist on July 29, 2013, 04:38:43 PM

Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on July 29, 2013, 04:38:43 PM
Presently my better half has the iud, I've been staying away but it's getting desperate now, I gave her a link to the cervical mucus method which she read up on and says no way she would do it, are there any other methods that we;re missing which are better? also if anyone has any church teachings that absolve the man from any mortal sin when he has relations with a wife who uses contraception I'm all ears, for now I believe it would be a mortal sin for me to have relations  with the wife.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: songbird on July 29, 2013, 06:49:56 PM
St. Anthony of Padua preached to help convert the people.  He found that trying to prove wrong in people did not work.  He brought them to sorrow.

I myself would like to know how that is accomplished.  The Cure de Ars, certainly brought his people to their knees.  He fasted because the devil hated that and the Cure cried when there was sin and such.  

I read his book and I was just fascinated by the powers of God.  Travelers said they didn't even recognize the city of Ars.  They expected stores open on Sunday and people in the fields working only to find a very quiet city on Sunday.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: parentsfortruth on July 29, 2013, 06:57:53 PM
Quote from: gooch
Presently my better half has the iud, I've been staying away but it's getting desperate now, I gave her a link to the cervical mucus method which she read up on and says no way she would do it, are there any other methods that we;re missing which are better? also if anyone has any church teachings that absolve the man from any mortal sin when he has relations with a wife who uses contraception I'm all ears, for now I believe it would be a mortal sin for me to have relations  with the wife.


Have you even talked to a priest about this yet?
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on July 29, 2013, 07:01:06 PM
Quote from: parentsfortruth
Quote from: gooch
Presently my better half has the iud, I've been staying away but it's getting desperate now, I gave her a link to the cervical mucus method which she read up on and says no way she would do it, are there any other methods that we;re missing which are better? also if anyone has any church teachings that absolve the man from any mortal sin when he has relations with a wife who uses contraception I'm all ears, for now I believe it would be a mortal sin for me to have relations  with the wife.


Have you even talked to a priest about this yet?

my priest mentioned family planning, I gave my wife a link and she read up on it and freaked out.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: parentsfortruth on July 29, 2013, 07:33:26 PM
Quote from: gooch
Quote from: parentsfortruth
Quote from: gooch
Presently my better half has the iud, I've been staying away but it's getting desperate now, I gave her a link to the cervical mucus method which she read up on and says no way she would do it, are there any other methods that we;re missing which are better? also if anyone has any church teachings that absolve the man from any mortal sin when he has relations with a wife who uses contraception I'm all ears, for now I believe it would be a mortal sin for me to have relations  with the wife.


Have you even talked to a priest about this yet?

my priest mentioned family planning, I gave my wife a link and she read up on it and freaked out.


Then you need to tell the priest her reaction, and ask him what to do next.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Matto on July 29, 2013, 07:35:44 PM
What a difficult situation. I wouldn't know how to advise you.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Ursus on July 29, 2013, 09:20:54 PM
Remember the vow about freely welcoming children? God's will. Not your lifestyle or at your convenience.

Start breaking the vows you end up breaking the marriage, talk to a priest, both of you.

But it sounds like already your communication has broken down. Work fast.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on July 29, 2013, 09:37:56 PM
Quote from: Ursus
Remember the vow about freely welcoming children? God's will. Not your lifestyle or at your convenience.

Start breaking the vows you end up breaking the marriage, talk to a priest, both of you.

But it sounds like already your communication has broken down. Work fast.

I agree, if it means the breakdown of my marriage I don't see a way out...anone hve experience with the following, Popular types of natural family planning include the rhythm method,  and the basal body temperature method.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on July 29, 2013, 09:46:05 PM
What about using temps only? Unless she is working night or up with a nursing infant it's pretty easy especially with online charting. A digital basal thermometer is under $15.  :pray:
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Ursus on July 29, 2013, 10:45:36 PM
Quote from: gooch

I agree, if it means the breakdown of my marriage I don't see a way out...anone hve experience with the following, Popular types of natural family planning include the rhythm method,  and the basal body temperature method.


Well look at this on the better side of things as she just doesn't get it;understand the significance.
Perhaps she sees this as just a "modern method." (but its not a natural one) See what the true root of the problem is. If she's being obstinate because she wants to be sure NOT to have a child then that's a big problem.

In my experience all the natural methods aren't 100%. But that just meant it was time.
Each one is a blessing and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Viva Cristo Rey on July 29, 2013, 10:48:38 PM
We need traditional Catholic doctors.  And nurses.

It seems many in the medical profession are liberals or end up liberals.

Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Ursus on July 30, 2013, 08:02:57 PM
Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey
We need traditional Catholic doctors.  And nurses.

It seems many in the medical profession are liberals or end up liberals.



We need to start by having traditional priests.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Domitilla on July 30, 2013, 08:18:42 PM
We don't need natural family planning, which is nothing more than Catholic birth control.  We need supernatural family planning.  Pray, pray, pray the Rosary together.  Try to pray all 15 decades each day.  Our Lady will solve your serious dilemma.  She has promised that there is no problem too great which cannot be solved by the Holy Rosary.  Believe it!
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tarpeian on July 30, 2013, 08:40:07 PM
Quote from: gooch
Presently my better half has the iud, I've been staying away but it's getting desperate now, I gave her a link to the cervical mucus method which she read up on and says no way she would do it, are there any other methods that we;re missing which are better? also if anyone has any church teachings that absolve the man from any mortal sin when he has relations with a wife who uses contraception I'm all ears, for now I believe it would be a mortal sin for me to have relations  with the wife.


IMHO the best avenue is to find someone who teaches the Creighton Method, and go together to the class. I think there is a wonderful chance you're wife will be amazed at what Creighton has to offer. I would be willing to talk to you both of you, if you feel comfortable. Creighton blew me away, and it made our marriage much stronger.

Pax,
Tarpeian
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Capt McQuigg on July 30, 2013, 09:22:11 PM
Quote from: Tarpeian
Quote from: gooch
Presently my better half has the iud, I've been staying away but it's getting desperate now, I gave her a link to the cervical mucus method which she read up on and says no way she would do it, are there any other methods that we;re missing which are better? also if anyone has any church teachings that absolve the man from any mortal sin when he has relations with a wife who uses contraception I'm all ears, for now I believe it would be a mortal sin for me to have relations  with the wife.


IMHO the best avenue is to find someone who teaches the Creighton Method, and go together to the class. I think there is a wonderful chance you're wife will be amazed at what Creighton has to offer. I would be willing to talk to you both of you, if you feel comfortable. Creighton blew me away, and it made our marriage much stronger.

Pax,
Tarpeian


Are you guys talking about ways to engage in conjugal acts while removing the possibility of pregnancy?
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Ambrose on July 30, 2013, 09:55:39 PM
Quote from: gooch
Quote from: Ursus
Remember the vow about freely welcoming children? God's will. Not your lifestyle or at your convenience.

Start breaking the vows you end up breaking the marriage, talk to a priest, both of you.

But it sounds like already your communication has broken down. Work fast.

I agree, if it means the breakdown of my marriage I don't see a way out...anone hve experience with the following, Popular types of natural family planning include the rhythm method,  and the basal body temperature method.


 The rhythm method permitted by Pope Pius XII cannot be used except for grave reasons.  It cannot be used because one spouse no longer wants kids.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tarpeian on July 30, 2013, 10:22:16 PM
I am not! I have supplied a link below for the Creighton Method.

http://www.creightonmodel.com

Pax,
Tarpeian
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: poche on July 30, 2013, 11:05:28 PM
You are absolved of culpability if your wife insists on using artificial contraception against your objections. Love her. Pray for her. Remember there are the things that we can control and there are the things that we cannot control and it is true wisdom to know the difference.  
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: pat on July 30, 2013, 11:09:13 PM
please please please have your wife research iud.... it does not prevent conception it does prevent the baby from attaching to the womb... she is being deceived...

it is a form of abortion.  I pray she she is using this in total ignorance..and will stop. also there are many dangers using it (i am not speaking from experience just info  obtained over the years.)



Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Capt McQuigg on July 30, 2013, 11:28:35 PM
Quote from: poche
You are absolved of culpability if your wife insists on using artificial contraception against your objections. Love her. Pray for her. Remember there are the things that we can control and there are the things that we cannot control and it is true wisdom to know the difference.  


Got a source?
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: parentsfortruth on July 30, 2013, 11:41:22 PM
Copyright 2006, Pope Paul VI Institute for the Study of Human Reproduction. All rights reserved.

Tarpeian, you're not going to make friends here linking crap like this.

Paul VI was a homosexual. Last thing people want to read is about a birth control method that's name is somehow attached to this disgraceful human being.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on July 31, 2013, 04:28:52 PM
Quote from: Tarpeian
Quote from: gooch
Presently my better half has the iud, I've been staying away but it's getting desperate now, I gave her a link to the cervical mucus method which she read up on and says no way she would do it, are there any other methods that we;re missing which are better? also if anyone has any church teachings that absolve the man from any mortal sin when he has relations with a wife who uses contraception I'm all ears, for now I believe it would be a mortal sin for me to have relations  with the wife.


IMHO the best avenue is to find someone who teaches the Creighton Method, and go together to the class. I think there is a wonderful chance you're wife will be amazed at what Creighton has to offer. I would be willing to talk to you both of you, if you feel comfortable. Creighton blew me away, and it made our marriage much stronger.

Pax,
Tarpeian

I never heard of that, will have to do some research, although right now not sure she's ready to attend any class
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on July 31, 2013, 04:30:00 PM
Quote from: Capt McQuigg
Quote from: Tarpeian
Quote from: gooch
Presently my better half has the iud, I've been staying away but it's getting desperate now, I gave her a link to the cervical mucus method which she read up on and says no way she would do it, are there any other methods that we;re missing which are better? also if anyone has any church teachings that absolve the man from any mortal sin when he has relations with a wife who uses contraception I'm all ears, for now I believe it would be a mortal sin for me to have relations  with the wife.


IMHO the best avenue is to find someone who teaches the Creighton Method, and go together to the class. I think there is a wonderful chance you're wife will be amazed at what Creighton has to offer. I would be willing to talk to you both of you, if you feel comfortable. Creighton blew me away, and it made our marriage much stronger.

Pax,
Tarpeian


Are you guys talking about ways to engage in conjugal acts while removing the possibility of pregnancy?

she is so I'm stuck, I'm open o morekids but she isn't
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Capt McQuigg on July 31, 2013, 04:56:45 PM
Quote from: gooch
Quote from: Capt McQuigg
Quote from: Tarpeian
Quote from: gooch
Presently my better half has the iud, I've been staying away but it's getting desperate now, I gave her a link to the cervical mucus method which she read up on and says no way she would do it, are there any other methods that we;re missing which are better? also if anyone has any church teachings that absolve the man from any mortal sin when he has relations with a wife who uses contraception I'm all ears, for now I believe it would be a mortal sin for me to have relations  with the wife.


IMHO the best avenue is to find someone who teaches the Creighton Method, and go together to the class. I think there is a wonderful chance you're wife will be amazed at what Creighton has to offer. I would be willing to talk to you both of you, if you feel comfortable. Creighton blew me away, and it made our marriage much stronger.

Pax,
Tarpeian


Are you guys talking about ways to engage in conjugal acts while removing the possibility of pregnancy?

she is so I'm stuck, I'm open o morekids but she isn't


Consult a priest about that - any (even novus ordo) - and then tell us what kind of advice you received.  

I think you may need to take drastic measures but I'm holding my tongue for the time being.  
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on July 31, 2013, 05:47:06 PM
Quote from: poche
You are absolved of culpability if your wife insists on using artificial contraception against your objections. Love her. Pray for her. Remember there are the things that we can control and there are the things that we cannot control and it is true wisdom to know the difference.  

I'd like to think you're right, but I don't see that in church teaching, do you have any teachings that confirm this point of view?
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: RomanKansan on July 31, 2013, 07:12:36 PM
"please please please have your wife research iud.... it does not prevent conception it does prevent the baby from attaching to the womb... she is being deceived... it is a form of abortion. I pray she she is using this in total ignorance..and will stop. also there are many dangers using it (i am not speaking from experience just info obtained over the years.) "

Everyone needs to pay attention to this post by pat...we are not talking contraception here...we are talking IUD = abortion.

It took me all of three seconds to find this info on Human Life International's website about this. Please research!!

http://www.hli.org/component/content/article/40-facts-of-life/583-facts-of-life-chapter-21-contraception-3-the-legal-connection-between-contraception-and-abortion


Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Zeitun on August 01, 2013, 05:31:00 PM
gooch,

Please read the testimony of Gloria Polo (she has received the permission of her bishop to share her story) who was struck by lightening and died after receiving third degree burns to her internal organs including ovaries, uterus, and breasts BECAUSE SHE WAS USING AN IUD.

http://www.gloria.polo.ortiz.in/
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on August 01, 2013, 07:11:22 PM
Quote from: Zeitun
gooch,

Please read the testimony of Gloria Polo (she has received the permission of her bishop to share her story) who was struck by lightening and died after receiving third degree burns to her internal organs including ovaries, uterus, and breasts BECAUSE SHE WAS USING AN IUD.

http://www.gloria.polo.ortiz.in/

will do thanks
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on August 01, 2013, 07:18:55 PM
found this, although I don't put too much stock in it
http://churchmilitant.tumblr.com/sexquestions

4 - Are both spouses guilty of a mortal sin if one chooses to use a contraceptive against the others will?

No. If a man decides to have a vasectomy against his wife’s will, she may still have sex with him and not be guilty. Likewise, if a woman is taking birth control pills against a husband’s wished, he may still have sex with her and remain guilt free.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 01, 2013, 07:25:27 PM
Quote from: gooch
Quote from: Ursus
Remember the vow about freely welcoming children? God's will. Not your lifestyle or at your convenience.

Start breaking the vows you end up breaking the marriage, talk to a priest, both of you.

But it sounds like already your communication has broken down. Work fast.

I agree, if it means the breakdown of my marriage I don't see a way out...anone hve experience with the following, Popular types of natural family planning include the rhythm method,  and the basal body temperature method.


My advice is bribe her to meet NOT A PRIEST but a married couple of about your age, or a few years older, who live in a beautifully tidy house and talk to couples about natural family planning.  Women want to hear this stuff from women basically.  If she is a bookworm there are so really well written and funny books on the topic too.  You can find counselling couples like this through the NFP associations.

When she is a little happier with the concept then you can see a priest.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 01, 2013, 07:30:02 PM
Quote from: Domitilla
We don't need natural family planning, which is nothing more than Catholic birth control.  We need supernatural family planning.  Pray, pray, pray the Rosary together.  Try to pray all 15 decades each day.  Our Lady will solve your serious dilemma.  She has promised that there is no problem too great which cannot be solved by the Holy Rosary.  Believe it!


If she won't stop using the coil she is hardly likely to say 15 decades a day of the Rosary, is she?
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 01, 2013, 07:35:14 PM
Is she bothered by the lack of sex or just you?

If the latter, and she has recently had a child, then I would suggest simply holding on and being very nice to her but not instigating sex.  Difficult, I know, but fools rush in where angels....

Women's hormones make them crazy as a fox at times.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on August 01, 2013, 07:39:20 PM
Quote from: ggreg
Is she bothered by the lack of sex or just you?

If the latter, and she has recently had a child, then I would suggest simply holding on and being very nice to her but not instigating sex.  Difficult, I know, but fools rush in where angels....

Women's hormones make them crazy as a fox at times.

she is bothered by the lack of sex, since I have been praying the rosary religiously for the past year and a half I can control my urges
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 01, 2013, 07:43:28 PM
So you have to have a subtle multistep plan then and you gotta think like you are playing chess.  Not what move would you make, but what move should she make.

You won't solve this in a day.  It's probably gonna take 2 to 3 years.

What is her objection.  Why?  Name as many reasons as you can why she does not want children?  Health, money, future, childbirth, pregnancy, her figure?

Frankly I am surprised she has put up with an 18 month drought.

How many kids and ages?

Sitting down with a sensible mature married couple where the women can play an older sister or mother role is a good move.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 01, 2013, 07:55:34 PM


Who wears the trousers?  ( be honest as some advice is useless or counterproductive if she is a Cosmopolitan reader.

We know she is culturally pro contraception but is she against divorce? the two don't always go hand in hand.  Would divorcing you be a personal failure in her mind?  Would her parents think she was stupid for losing you or sympathise with her for following her heart?
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 01, 2013, 07:58:39 PM
PM with this if easier
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on August 01, 2013, 08:47:52 PM
Quote from: ggreg


Who wears the trousers?  ( be honest as some advice is useless or counterproductive if she is a Cosmopolitan reader.

We know she is culturally pro contraception but is she against divorce? the two don't always go hand in hand.  Would divorcing you be a personal failure in her mind?  Would her parents think she was stupid for losing you or sympathise with her for following her heart?

she's 40, we have a 8, 6, 1 yr old, she simply wants no more kids, she says she's done, she's exhausted, but she also mentioned other reasons as financial , chance of her getting sick ...as for the trousers I say she doesn't accept my authority, she's a modern woman, she says she has given in to allthe drastic changes I have forced onthe family in recent years..ie my stance agains vaccines..I won the battle, my insistence we eat organic, I won the battle..she says this is the straw that broke the camel's back..as for divorce she mentioned it the other night, then the day after  she mentioned she couldn't live without me, I think it's her desperate plea to have me consent to her wishes, we both agree that if she would divorce all our friends and family would side with her as everyone thinks my views on life are extreme
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Mabel on August 01, 2013, 09:01:39 PM
Quote from: gooch
Quote from: ggreg


Who wears the trousers?  ( be honest as some advice is useless or counterproductive if she is a Cosmopolitan reader.

We know she is culturally pro contraception but is she against divorce? the two don't always go hand in hand.  Would divorcing you be a personal failure in her mind?  Would her parents think she was stupid for losing you or sympathise with her for following her heart?

she's 40, we have a 8, 6, 1 yr old, she simply wants no more kids, she says she's done, she's exhausted, but she also mentioned other reasons as financial , chance of her getting sick ...as for the trousers I say she doesn't accept my authority, she's a modern woman, she says she has given in to allthe drastic changes I have forced onthe family in recent years..ie my stance agains vaccines..I won the battle, my insistence we eat organic, I won the battle..she says this is the straw that broke the camel's back..as for divorce she mentioned it the other night, then the day after  she mentioned she couldn't live without me, I think it's her desperate plea to have me consent to her wishes, we both agree that if she would divorce all our friends and family would side with her as everyone thinks my views on life are extreme



I have a friend who ended up in a similar situation, the wife divorced him, he probably could have written most of what you had written. It started with contraception. If she starts talking divorce, I'm hoping it would never come to that, but sometimes things get better and get worse again. I don't mean to scare you, but really think about how you might have to protect yourself and your children. Consider legal things. When in-laws get involved, they can influence your spouse and it can just spiral out of control. I've seen a traditional Catholic mother and also a father have nearly all parental rights taken away, and I guess I am very sensitive to that word "divorce" being used. Courts do not find favor with us in these situations.

I know this isn't what you asked about, but I really felt I should give you some friendly words of caution. I hope it all works out, and that good St. Joseph will guide you though this.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Lighthouse on August 01, 2013, 09:14:40 PM
Have you thought about a mutual vow of abstinence? Could she live with that?
Could you?

Think about it. That way she is not committing the sin of contraception nor the sin of withholding. She is relieved of the terror of getting into a difficult situation.
How much do you love each other and the children? Or is it all based on puffed
up worldly desires
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on August 01, 2013, 09:36:18 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse
Have you thought about a mutual vow of abstinence? Could she live with that?
Could you?

Think about it. That way she is not committing the sin of contraception nor the sin of withholding. She is relieved of the terror of getting into a difficult situation.
How much do you love each other and the children? Or is it all based on puffed
up worldly desires

I can live with it, she can't ..it's all based on puffed up worldly desires unfortunately.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Ambrose on August 01, 2013, 09:51:49 PM
The best advice I can give you is to pray very much for your wife, say the rosary every day for her conversion along with Novenas and have masses said for her.  God can give her the grace to see the truth of this.  

I will pray for you and your wife.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Capt McQuigg on August 02, 2013, 01:07:29 AM
Gooch,

Make sure that you are taking the children to a Traditional Catholic Church, either the SSPX or one of the sede chapels.  Your wife may be a hard case but you must lead your family into the Catholic faith.  The children must receive the traditional catechisms and the Catholic sacraments.

As for the wife, pray and sacrifice for her.  

Arrange for a general confession and don't hold back.  You must sanctify yourself with daily prayer and bit by bit remove the garbage from your home.  After sanctifying yourself, you must take the children to the Traditional Catholic Mass. Lead the children and even say the rosary with them.  

If your wife doesn't start to see the error of her ways, she may possess a rancid soul but I wouldn't want to concede that just yet.  Some women are so very selfish and they just hate to admit they are wrong but if you sanctify yourself and lead the children to the Catholic Mass, after some time this consistently, she may come around.  If she does, always be willing to let her think that it was all her idea.

Pray a nine day novena to St Philomena for her starting on Saturday, then when St Philomena's feast day arrives on August 11th, you will conclude the novena.  It is well worth a try.

Your wife needs and deserves your prayers, so get to it.

Don't rush her and don't try to convince her with your words.  Prayer and fasting, that's what is needed here.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 05:58:22 AM
Quote from: gooch
Quote from: ggreg


Who wears the trousers?  ( be honest as some advice is useless or counterproductive if she is a Cosmopolitan reader.

We know she is culturally pro contraception but is she against divorce? the two don't always go hand in hand.  Would divorcing you be a personal failure in her mind?  Would her parents think she was stupid for losing you or sympathise with her for following her heart?

she's 40, we have a 8, 6, 1 yr old, she simply wants no more kids, she says she's done, she's exhausted, but she also mentioned other reasons as financial , chance of her getting sick ...as for the trousers I say she doesn't accept my authority, she's a modern woman, she says she has given in to allthe drastic changes I have forced onthe family in recent years..ie my stance agains vaccines..I won the battle, my insistence we eat organic, I won the battle..she says this is the straw that broke the camel's back..as for divorce she mentioned it the other night, then the day after  she mentioned she couldn't live without me, I think it's her desperate plea to have me consent to her wishes, we both agree that if she would divorce all our friends and family would side with her as everyone thinks my views on life are extreme


Let's assume you had played your cards differently then and not had a battle about Vaccines and Organic food (neither of which matter very much in the grand scheme of things) but, instead, had always been reasonable and ready to compromise and you ONLY insisted and really put your foot down and banged your fist on the table when the topic at hand jepodized your immortal souls.

Do you think she might have agreed to not use contraception?

I think she has basically lost respect for you and thinks you are a domineering control freak who does not care about her feelings but just your own agenda you've picked up on the internet and from your crazy virtual religious friends over the years.  She probably feels worked off her feet and in order to maintain a sense of control she's ringfenced this issue in her mind and mad it her Alamo.  And from her friends and social support group she's going to get a LOT of support in this day and age, since, you can easily be painted like that to a family court.

So, basically, you've been a bit of an asshat to paint yourself into a corner over Organic food and Vaccines.  Which let's agree, really don't matter that much.  MOST people who have the full range of vaccines and eat a healthy balanced diet of normal supermarket food are just fine.

My parents had 9 children and between us we have 56 grandchildren.  1 brother is unmarried and 1 was a Traditional Monk until he died a few years ago.  Everyone in all of the generations practices their faith.  So my father's husband and parenting methods, which I have adopted, I think should be considered based on a 60 year track record.  He was a very wise man.  And there is no argument against success.

His basic philosophy was separate what was critical to avoiding mortal sin and perilous situations and "the rest".  So as children, if we got an ear pierced or had a funny hair cut or ate junk food or had bad table manners, he would comment and try to steer us and make us think, but he would not "do his nut" and go mad about it or command us or stop us.  My older brothers smoked for example, and while my father was a non-smoker and against smoking, he let them do so without attacking them or making snide comments constantly.

If, however, you got into a situation where you stayed out for the night with your girlfriend, or slept with her, then he would come down on you like a ton of bricks.  Because he realised that you were getting yourself into VERY dangerous waters.  You end up getting the wrong girl up the duff, you marry her and you're in for a life of misery, so that was a time to pull out the big guns.

Same thing if you skipped Mass or tried to or trod in other mortal sin territory.  But the big one for teenagers is fornication and it's derivatives.

You pull them out all of the time and people stop fearing them.

Because he was reasonable the rest of the time, to the subject (us) it seemed a hell of a price to pay to get kicked out of the house because you could not keep it in your pants.  So it makes the decision very clear and rational and unemotional.  I have this harmonious home where I am treated really nicely and all I need to do to keep it that way is not shag my girlfriend or drop her and get another who is decent and not a slut.  There was no "getting back at Dad", because there was nothing to get back at him for.  One did not need to carve out one's territory to gain some self-respect because one already had plenty of freedom.  The yolk was light and the sacrifice simply not worth making.

God did this very same thing.  There was just ONE tree in the garden Adam and Eve could not eat from.  You have given your wife THREE trees already and two are unnecessary.  You have decided they are important, but objectively they are not even in the same ball park as contraception.  There are no Papal Enclyclicals about innoculations or pestecides.

I assume when you married this women you were not a Traditional Catholic.  If you were then you're a bloody fool because secular women are clearly going to want to use contraception at some stage.  You must have therefore CHANGED YOUR TUNE on her over the course of your marriage.  In other words, from her perspective, she married a man who has become somewhat of a religious kook and a pedant since she married him.  She see little difference between the contraception issue and you insistence that the entire family eats organic spinach.

Here is what I would do in your shoes.  Adopt my father's method of managing your family.

Get your parents to babysit, and, taking your wife away for a long weekend somewhere nice, tell her that you have been an asshat and apologise to her for being domineering, this will surprise her.  Explain that you care about her soul, your marriage and your children's souls and from now on are only going to focus on those things.

Win back her trust and her love.  Find someway to stop wasting time (we all waste time on the internet) and earn a bit more money AND spend more time helping her out around the home.  Every weekend ask her for a list of three to five small DIY or cleaning jobs she would like done.  May her feel like Queen of the home.  My wife is always most interested in sex when I have repaired the dryer or done something manly around the house or spent hours playing with the children.  When I've watched a movie for two hours she is less interested.

If you do this, I can pretty much guarantee you she will have that coil removed and use some sort of rhythm method.  Because the risk-reward ratio tips in her favour.  At first she will be nervous and worried about getting pregant but the nicer and more supportive and loving and reasonable and caring you are.  i.e. the more she loves and appreciates you, the less she will worry about it.

One cannot reduce risks to zero after all.  Yes, there is a risk she could get pregnant and damage her long tem health or even die, but there is a risk she could die doing all sorts of stuff she does today.

As for the innoculation stuff and the Organic stuff, let her do what she wants.  If God wants to protect you from the mercury and Monsantos worst pesticide threat He can do that.  Just let her buy the shopping she wants and try and eat a balanced diet.  If you die 5 years earlier or get cancer at 65 so what?  That won't send you, or her, or your kids to hell.  Divorce is a much greater threat.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 06:08:18 AM
repost
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Telesphorus on August 02, 2013, 06:09:15 AM
She doesn't have much longer to go because she's 40.  

Be nice and complaisant but simply tell her that what she's doing is obviously incompatible with your deepest beliefs (because of the abortifacient nature of the IUD) and there is nothing more to discuss.  

You might relax your position in some other less important areas of disagreement and make some concessions to her.

However, I think it's best to disregard the idea that her excuses are the reason she doesn't want another baby.

"I won't have another baby because you wouldn't accept vaccination and made me eat organic"

That's ridiculous, those aren't the reasons.  The problem really is as you say, her relatives who should be telling her to do what she's told for the sake of the marriage and children.

You're not a control freak if you truly believe vaccines cause autism, you were taking a calculated risk.  You might have been factually wrong, that doesn't make you a control freak, you were making a decision in order to avoid what you considered an unacceptable risk.


Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Telesphorus on August 02, 2013, 06:21:44 AM
What your wife is doing is exceedingly evil.  It's not your fault.  You shouldn't feel any guilt at all for sticking to your guns.

Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 06:25:44 AM
Quote from: Telesphorus
She doesn't have much longer to go because she's 40.  

Be nice and complaisant but simply tell her that what she's doing is obviously incompatible with your deepest beliefs (because of the abortifacient nature of the IUD) and there is nothing more to discuss.  

You might relax your position in some other less important areas of disagreement and make some concessions to her.

However, I think it's best to disregard the idea that her excuses are the reason she doesn't want another baby.

"I won't have another baby because you wouldn't accept vaccination and made me eat organic"

That's ridiculous, those aren't the reasons.  The problem really is as you say, her relatives who should be telling her to do what she's told for the sake of the marriage and children.

You're not a control freak if you truly believe vaccines cause autism, you were taking a calculated risk.  You might have been factually wrong, that doesn't make you a control freak, you were making a decision in order to avoid what you considered an unacceptable risk.




So speaks the voice of experience who understand the mind of a woman and can read them like a book :rolleyes:

How did you handle this with your wife Tele?

She's told him those are the reasons.  He posted that above.

She's drawing a line in the sand and in her mind saying, for the sake of my own self-respect, I am not prepared to compromise.  This is what happens when you try and dominate people.  Eventually they find some arbitrary basis on which to dig their heels in.  Magna Carta, French Revolution etc.

Read any modern management book and it will say the same thing.  Leadership is about picking your battles.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Telesphorus on August 02, 2013, 06:31:27 AM
It's a shameless power play and in a society where interlopers could be properly dealt with she wouldn't dare act this way.  The excuses are absolutely pathetic.  

Anyone trying to guilt a man for leading his family and giving credence to those lousy excuses for her vicious behavior, encouraged by her wretched meddling in-laws, has a problem of moral sensibility.

Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Telesphorus on August 02, 2013, 06:35:46 AM
These people will blame a man for a woman's behavior but would lock him up and justify all sorts of calumnies against him if he tried to do something about it.

Really they don't believe in male leadership in the household.  They are just like her miserable relatives, when push comes to shove.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 06:36:18 AM
yes, yes, yes

But back in the real world let's focus on the problem that Gooch has and not how we would solve it in your fantasy middle-earth kingdom.

Unfortunately, none of us has a time machine.

I'm not trying to guilt him, I am trying to help him save his marriage, based on the 20+ years of experience of marriage I have, which YOU DON'T.

That may require compromise.

Do you ever wonder why you're single Tele?  You're not a bad looking bloke, so might it be because you're such a prig that every women runs a mile?
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Telesphorus on August 02, 2013, 06:39:17 AM
Quote from: ggreg
yes, yes, yes

But back in the real world let's focus on the problem that Gooch has and not how we would solve it in your fantasy middle-earth kingdom.

Unfortunately, none of us has a time machine.


You're the one who suggested that it was his past mistakes he can longer can rectify that are the reason for his conundrum.

"You made me eat organic, that's the final straw, no more babies for you buster, no NFP I'm implanted!"

Take that!
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 06:43:05 AM
He can rectify them.

He can apologize for being controlling on unnecessary things and win back her trust and confidence for the necessary things he WILL continue to insist on.

Give and take.  It is a difficult concept for you, I know, but work with me on this.

Give and take.  Say it three times.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 02, 2013, 06:46:33 AM
Quote from: Mabel
Quote from: gooch
Quote from: ggreg


Who wears the trousers?  ( be honest as some advice is useless or counterproductive if she is a Cosmopolitan reader.

We know she is culturally pro contraception but is she against divorce? the two don't always go hand in hand.  Would divorcing you be a personal failure in her mind?  Would her parents think she was stupid for losing you or sympathise with her for following her heart?

she's 40, we have a 8, 6, 1 yr old, she simply wants no more kids, she says she's done, she's exhausted, but she also mentioned other reasons as financial , chance of her getting sick ...as for the trousers I say she doesn't accept my authority, she's a modern woman, she says she has given in to allthe drastic changes I have forced onthe family in recent years..ie my stance agains vaccines..I won the battle, my insistence we eat organic, I won the battle..she says this is the straw that broke the camel's back..as for divorce she mentioned it the other night, then the day after  she mentioned she couldn't live without me, I think it's her desperate plea to have me consent to her wishes, we both agree that if she would divorce all our friends and family would side with her as everyone thinks my views on life are extreme



I have a friend who ended up in a similar situation, the wife divorced him, he probably could have written most of what you had written. It started with contraception. If she starts talking divorce, I'm hoping it would never come to that, but sometimes things get better and get worse again. I don't mean to scare you, but really think about how you might have to protect yourself and your children. Consider legal things. When in-laws get involved, they can influence your spouse and it can just spiral out of control. I've seen a traditional Catholic mother and also a father have nearly all parental rights taken away, and I guess I am very sensitive to that word "divorce" being used. Courts do not find favor with us in these situations.

I know this isn't what you asked about, but I really felt I should give you some friendly words of caution. I hope it all works out, and that good St. Joseph will guide you though this.
 How is he supposed to protect himself?  Any parent or married person is constantly at the mercy of the family court.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 02, 2013, 06:51:08 AM
Quote from: ggreg
He can rectify them.

He can apologize for being controlling on unnecessary things and win back her trust and confidence for the necessary things he WILL continue to insist on.

Give and take.  It is a difficult concept for you, I know, but work with me on this.

Give and take.  Say it three times.


Ggreg we aren't playing cards trading to win go fish. This is a marriage, contraception, and  potential murder we are talking here.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 02, 2013, 07:05:42 AM
Quote from: ggreg

Get your parents to babysit, and, taking your wife away for a long weekend somewhere nice, tell her that you have been an asshat and apologise to her for being domineering, this will surprise her.  Explain that you care about her soul, your marriage and your children's souls and from now on are only going to focus on those things.

Win back her trust and her love.  Find someway to stop wasting time (we all waste time on the internet) and earn a bit more money AND spend more time helping her out around the home.  Every weekend ask her for a list of three to five small DIY or cleaning jobs she would like done.  May her feel like Queen of the home.  My wife is always most interested in sex when I have repaired the dryer or done something manly around the house or spent hours playing with the children.  When I've watched a movie for two hours she is less interested.



Are you kidding me? Whatever respect she has for him, will definitely be gone then.

Now he is supposed to do chores in exchange for sex? Common sense applied like apart from times if the wife is very ill, a husband shouldn't be having to gauge her interest.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 02, 2013, 07:07:45 AM
What you learned from your father is basically Christians with worldly values.  Keep up appearances and don't do anything that would keep your from being comfortable. Nothing to do with internalized morals of right and wrong.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 07:13:47 AM
Quote from: Tiffany
How is he supposed to protect himself?  Any parent or married person is constantly at the mercy of the family court.


He can get things in writing, keep a diary, record calls, video the inside of his house but these are really nothing more than grabbing himself a lifejacket on the Titanic.  It will only help him, perhaps, when the boat has sunk.

3 little kids happiness depends on Gooch not screwing this up, so I would suggest he seriously considers whether trousers, organic carrots and MMR and all the other stuff he has dominated her with over the years, none of which are condemned under pain of moral sin by the Church are worth insisting on, rather than insisting on just the one that is.

This is where rigourism leads.  People lose perspective and beat people up over small things, big things, and nothing all with them same force.  It is a serious disease of a number of Trads.  Their own over-scrupulousness and worry is projected outwardly on the people around them they claim to love, which then has the effect of driving them away.

I have been a Trad for 30+ years and I have seen this story more times than I care to remember.  Usually the Father turning some of the children away from Tradition and thus Catholicism altogether.

And Gooch - if you do get divorced, then when your children come to visit and you tell your daughters to wear long skirts and your sons to not eat McDonalds how seriously are they going to take your message?  Don't you think they might think, given that they will be spending most of the time with your now ex-wife, "Dad, you are a real asshole, telling me what to eat and how to dress, you couldn't even keep your marriage to Mum together because you insisted on all this kooky stuff".  There is almost no chance they will keep their faith because your ex-wife will turn them against it using you as an example of how it makes people crazy and controlling.

Bernie Madoff might have some really great ideas on investment but who is going to believe them, coming from him?  His card is marked.

If MMR does cause autism the chances of contracting it are VERY VERY low otherwise science could detect it by backtesting even if the drug companies were trying to hide it.   Neither God nor the Church require you to have a PhD or indeed an opinion in biochemistry to be a father and a husband.

Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 07:16:28 AM
Quote from: Tiffany
What you learned from your father is basically Christians with worldly values.  Keep up appearances and don't do anything that would keep your from being comfortable. Nothing to do with internalized morals of right and wrong.


That is an opinion.

But it is a fact that we are all happily married and go to mass every week.

Now it might be a fluke.  But 9 out of 9 followed by 56 out of 56 offspring keeping their faith, is some fluke.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 07:23:08 AM
So what's your marital situation Tiffany?

Didn't you get divorced or live with someone or marry a foreigner and it didn't work out or something like that?
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 07:31:35 AM
Quote from: Tiffany
Quote from: ggreg
He can rectify them.

He can apologize for being controlling on unnecessary things and win back her trust and confidence for the necessary things he WILL continue to insist on.

Give and take.  It is a difficult concept for you, I know, but work with me on this.

Give and take.  Say it three times.


Ggreg we aren't playing cards trading to win go fish. This is a marriage, contraception, and  potential murder we are talking here.


Which is why, if you bother to read my post, I have not suggest he lets the Ace of Contraception slip from his hand but rather offers up his 4 of Trousers, 7 of Vaccines and Jack of Broccoli to the middle of the table for a reshuffle.

How much you TRULY care about Gooch's situation is demonstrated by the fact that rather than offer alternative constructive advice to him, you attempt to deconstruct the advice of other posters.  Why not simply post yourself and let Gooch decide?

Like most prigs you don't really care about the children of an anonymous stranger on the internet, though you will scream blue murder that you do, as long as your weird little rules are followed.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Telesphorus on August 02, 2013, 07:31:52 AM
The problem here is straight-up feminism, "my body, my choice" and notice that the man is being assigned blame by the feminist enabler here.  This is what happens when relations and other people make excuses for feminine immorality.  

Look at FE.

Really it's the same attitude at its core:

"You are so judgmental and rigid, why don't you look at your own faults and then realize you can manipulate your erring spouse by grovelling and showing tolerance and realizing everyone is human and makes mistakes"

Or Pope Francis "who am I to judge X, Y, and Z"

A woman not wanting to have a baby isn't about you not liking trousers or buying organic food or forgoing vaccines.  

A baby is a great deal more significant than those things.  If she didn't want those things then she simply wouldn't have gone along with them.

She is drawing the line here because of a moral failing (lack of courage) and probably because of encouragement from the sort of people who are telling her you're "controlling" and probably "abusive" "neglectful" "fanatical" "rigorist"
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 02, 2013, 07:36:03 AM
Quote from: ggreg
So what's your marital situation Tiffany?

Didn't you get divorced or live with someone or marry a foreigner and it didn't work out or something like that?


Nice comment in there  questioning my virtue.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 02, 2013, 07:40:18 AM
Quote from: ggreg
Quote from: Tiffany
Quote from: ggreg
He can rectify them.

He can apologize for being controlling on unnecessary things and win back her trust and confidence for the necessary things he WILL continue to insist on.

Give and take.  It is a difficult concept for you, I know, but work with me on this.

Give and take.  Say it three times.


Ggreg we aren't playing cards trading to win go fish. This is a marriage, contraception, and  potential murder we are talking here.


Which is why, if you bother to read my post, I have not suggest he lets the Ace of Contraception slip from his hand but rather offers up his 4, 7 and Jack to the middle of the table for a reshuffle.

How much you TRULY care about Gooch's situation is demonstrated by the fact that rather than offer alternative constructive advice to him, you attempt to deconstruct the advice of other posters.  Why not simply post yourself and let Gooch decide?

Like most prigs you don't really care about the children of an anonymous stranger on the internet, though you will scream blue murder that you do, as long as your weird little rules are followed.


Ggreg when gooch FIRST posted, shared some of my own experience, and have prayed for his family since then. It is a very difficult place for a believer to be in. I also remember his wife has made some agreements too, like I believe she attends a TLM with him. Don't doubt the influence of others here leading her the wrong way with a legal system that supports them.  
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 07:41:23 AM
Quote from: Tiffany
Quote from: ggreg
So what's your marital situation Tiffany?

Didn't you get divorced or live with someone or marry a foreigner and it didn't work out or something like that?


Nice comment in there  questioning my virtue.


Why not answer the question.  I thought I read you married a foreigner and got divorced, but I might be confusing you with someone else.

Are you long term happily married to a Catholic yourself and on your first marriage.  Since you picked apart my advice we might as well put all of our cards on the table.  Then Gooch can consider our credibility in light of this.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 07:44:54 AM
Anyway Gooch I will bow out, because this thread will otherwise degenerate into a sh!tfest but please come back in a year or two and resurrect the thread and give us and future readers the benefit of hindsight.  If you save your marriage how did you do it and  if you didn't, what you could have done better if you had a second chance.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 08:08:42 AM
Quote from: Telesphorus
The problem here is straight-up feminism, "my body, my choice" and notice that the man is being assigned blame by the feminist enabler here.  This is what happens when relations and other people make excuses for feminine immorality.  


Well, assuming there is only one person to blame, there is a good chance he is the one to blame, since there are only two people involved.

If the blame is shared, then I am blaming him because he is the one posting and asking for advice.  Blaming his wife is not constructive.  Obviously she is at fault for getting an IUD, but she's not asking for advice.

Let's assume that you, Tele, are completely correct in your views of how to deal with women and Gooch brings home a stick as thin as his finger and gives her a damn good spanking, or stands there and uses phrases, like exceedingly evil, interloper, ungodly and vicious attack.

How is Mrs Gooch going to react.  Here is a women who after the last baby had a coil fitted.   She's hardly likely to agree with her husband and run off to fetch his pipe and slippers.  Softly, softly catch a monkey.

There is a reason you have never had a girlfriend or a wife Tele and it is because you lack empathy.  You lack an understanding that to get from A to B is sometimes a journey.  People don't just beam there like Captain Kirk.  You probably scare the living crap out of women for this reason.

I've made millions of dollars in business by changing people's minds and making them think about things from a different perspective.  I know a thing or two about practical human psychology and insisting on a person eating and entire moral menu all at once is a good way to guarantee they will vomit it up.

Here lies the body of William Day.
Who died maintaining his right of way.
He was right, dead right as he sped along,
But he is just as dead, as if he were wrong.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 02, 2013, 08:09:31 AM
Quote from: ggreg
Quote from: Tiffany
Quote from: ggreg
So what's your marital situation Tiffany?

Didn't you get divorced or live with someone or marry a foreigner and it didn't work out or something like that?


Nice comment in there  questioning my virtue.


Why not answer the question.  I thought I read you married a foreigner and got divorced, but I might be confusing you with someone else.

Are you long term happily married to a Catholic yourself and on your first marriage.  Since you picked apart my advice we might as well put all of our cards on the table.  Then Gooch can consider our credibility in light of this.
Ggreg you goal was just to demean me, otherwise you would not have suggested that I whore around.

 I replied to him months ago and was not picking apart anything. http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/contraception-2
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 08:11:38 AM
Quote from: Tiffany
Quote from: ggreg
Quote from: Tiffany
Quote from: ggreg
So what's your marital situation Tiffany?

Didn't you get divorced or live with someone or marry a foreigner and it didn't work out or something like that?


Nice comment in there  questioning my virtue.


Why not answer the question.  I thought I read you married a foreigner and got divorced, but I might be confusing you with someone else.

Are you long term happily married to a Catholic yourself and on your first marriage.  Since you picked apart my advice we might as well put all of our cards on the table.  Then Gooch can consider our credibility in light of this.
Ggreg you goal was just to demean me, otherwise you would not have suggested that I whore around.

 I replied to him months ago and was not picking apart anything. http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/contraception-2


So basically you got divorced.

So whatever you tried, it didn't work.  Fair?
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 02, 2013, 08:14:38 AM
Quote from: ggreg
Quote from: Telesphorus
The problem here is straight-up feminism, "my body, my choice" and notice that the man is being assigned blame by the feminist enabler here.  This is what happens when relations and other people make excuses for feminine immorality.  


Well, assuming there is only one person to blame, there is a good chance he is the one to blame, since there are only two people involved.

If the blame is shared, then I am blaming him because he is the one posting and asking for advice.  Blaming his wife is not constructive.  Obviously she is at fault for getting an IUD, but she's not asking for advice.

Let's assume that you, Tele, are completely correct in your views of how to deal with women and Gooch brings home a stick as thin as his finger and gives her a damn good spanking, or stands there and uses phrases, like exceedingly evil, interloper, ungodly and vicious attack.

How is Mrs Gooch going to react.  Here is a women who after the last baby had a coil fitted.   She's hardly likely to agree with her husband and run off to fetch his pipe and slippers.  Softly, softly catch a monkey.

There is a reason you have never had a girlfriend or a wife Tele and it is because you lack empathy.  You lack an understanding that to get from A to B is sometimes a journey.  People don't just beam there like Captain Kirk.  You probably scare the living crap out of women for this reason.

I've made millions of dollars in business by changing people's minds and making them think about things from a different perspective.  I know a thing or two about practical human psychology and insisting on a person eating and entire moral menu all at once is a good way to guarantee they will vomit it up.

Here lies the body of William Day.
Who died maintaining his right of way.
He was right, dead right as he sped along,
But he is just as dead, as if he were wrong.


Same old argument, men with honest values lack empathy are cruel, and it's such a bunch of hogwash, just the opposite is true, they are the most empathetic and caring.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 08:19:15 AM
Gooch, according to the other thread you converted around two years ago or less.

So it's not like your wife married you with a full and frank understanding of what she was letting himself in for.  You weren't from a family of 9 kids with all of your brothers and sisters having 6 or more.

From her perspective you have moved the goalposts on her.  She was at least a decade into a marriage where she thought she could use contraception and all of a suddenly she is not only dealing with a convert's zeal (famous for causing these and other problems) but a bunch of other stuff like trousers, broccoli and inoculations.

Blimey man, can't you see what has happened here?

Turn the dial back a little.  Turn the volume down.  Let her slowly absorb the new you.

With that I wish you luck and I have deals to do.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 08:21:20 AM
Quote from: Tiffany

Same old argument, men with honest values lack empathy are cruel, and it's such a bunch of hogwash, just the opposite is true, they are the most empathetic and caring.


With my hogwash I am happily married.

With your honest values, you are divorced.

Proof of the pudding my dear is in the eating.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 02, 2013, 08:23:29 AM
Absolutely not Ggreg, I remember when I told him I was with child the last time, being nervous embarrassed to talk to him about something like that I was looking down but when I looked up he had a big smile.
Our bed was kept holy, that isn't a failure.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 08:48:02 AM
If Gooch ends up divorced because he stands on some bizarre anti-feminist principal.

He is going to be sexless until the end of his life (unless he gets an annulment with three kids from his first marriage).

His ex-wife is still going to use contraception and will probably find a new man

His three children will probably lose any faith as a result.  After all the cause of their parents divorce appears to be his conversion to Catholicism (which says divorce is wrong.  The kids are going to find that a paradox.

(zero upside)



If Gooch remains married by apologising for moving too fast on her, (which is what I suggested he did).

He has a chance to convert his wife and children.

His children will probably have the faith as adults.


Conclusion - You can do far more good as a "weak" husband than a "manly" ex-husband.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 02, 2013, 08:51:21 AM
Quote from: ggreg
Quote from: Tiffany

Same old argument, men with honest values lack empathy are cruel, and it's such a bunch of hogwash, just the opposite is true, they are the most empathetic and caring.


With my hogwash I am happily married.

With your honest values, you are divorced.

Proof of the pudding my dear is in the eating.
 The hogwash is that men with traditional values who reject feminism lack empathy and are uncaring.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 08:57:35 AM
Quote from: Tiffany
Quote from: ggreg
Quote from: Tiffany

Same old argument, men with honest values lack empathy are cruel, and it's such a bunch of hogwash, just the opposite is true, they are the most empathetic and caring.


With my hogwash I am happily married.

With your honest values, you are divorced.

Proof of the pudding my dear is in the eating.
 The hogwash is that men with traditional values who reject feminism lack empathy and are uncaring.


OK, so the day that a poster comes here and says his skirt wearing Traditionalist wife is divorcing him because he did too many chores for her and she lost all respect for him and ran off to marry a pipe-smoking, Tolkein reading, Stormfront supporting rad-Trad, let's review.

So far however my way is working.  And Gooch's way is not.  And you are divorced.

Whereas I am married, very happily and my 39 year old wife is popping out sprogs every 2 years like a Russian cuckoo-clock.

SO I MUST BE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT !!!!
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: parentsfortruth on August 02, 2013, 09:36:54 AM
Vaccines are a huge risk. All you have to do is ask my sister who has two that are nearly entirely dependent on my sister for almost everything. They were perfectly fine babbling babies when they got those vaccines. They couldn't talk at all until they were 6 years old. My neighbor here, has a grandchild. She warned that mother not to give vaccines. Enemas everyday for this poor little soul. Probably bowel problems for the rest of her life, and she doesn't function like a normal two year old either now. So don't sit here and tell me the risk is "very very small." I know personally at least 3 children in my immediate vicinity (and plenty more) that have autism from the shots. THIS IS PART OF THE MASS MURDER PLAN to make our children zombies for the new world order. It's not even an argument. He's 100% right on this, and he shouldn't be demeaned or have to "apologize to his wife" for his stance.

Yes, organic, as you say "isn't as important" but if you can afford it, it's not hard to just pick up the stuff in the other aisle, rather than the stuff abundantly sitting in front of your face for cheap. Now if he were going broke over this (which it doesn't sound like, he's bringing in the bacon, obviously he's mathematically competent to know if they can afford it or not) then I could see trying to say "well honey, you just shop for whatever you want." And if he's bringing in that much, the problem here is not money.

This is not just an issue where you can go "oh well." If she continues this way, and decides to divorce, this will be HER fault. Besides, he doesn't have to grant it to her anyway. Perhaps when she hits "rock bottom," she'll begin to see what a warped mindset she really has. Eventually the children. seeing her proceed with such a thing, when older, will be able to ask questions about this situation, and he will have the moral highground. Yes, it will be more difficult, but it's more important if your wife is committing such a blatant sin against the very office of marriage, basically thumbing her nose in God's Divine Face, and saying "NO," you should NOT back down from the truth. God will reward you for long-suffering. Just stay close to Him.

I like Captain McQuiggs post the most about sanctifying the children and yourself. Prayer and fasting. These are good ways to deal with this, not "compromise" on this very grave issue.

By the way, I've been married for 15 years and we have 6 (going on 7) children here. I still say please go talk to your priest and ask what can be done.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 02, 2013, 09:45:38 AM
PFT he doesn't have to agree for her to divorce him.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: parentsfortruth on August 02, 2013, 09:46:36 AM
Quote from: Tiffany
PFT he doesn't have to agree for her to divorce him.


That's what my point was when I said, "Besides, he doesn't have to grant it to her anyway."
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: parentsfortruth on August 02, 2013, 09:49:21 AM
Also, if she is Catholic, they would have to get an annulment for her to carry on with someone else, and he definitely would easily be able to prove that it's not legitimate.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 02, 2013, 09:52:37 AM
What isn't legitimate and who is he proving it to?

Annulment or not it would steal mean the breakup of his family? I don't get what that has to do with his situation?
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: parentsfortruth on August 02, 2013, 09:57:45 AM
Quote from: Tiffany
What isn't legitimate and who is he proving it to?

Annulment or not it would steal mean the breakup of his family? I don't get what that has to do with his situation?


I don't know what state he lives in. Some states have "no fault" divorces, and some states have different rules on it. Sometimes one side has to prove that there was fault in a divorce. The point is, he would be able to show in the future to the children, if she did really try to go through with this, that he was doing the right thing in the eyes of God.

Divorce is a secular thing. The Catholic Church does not grant divorces, so this would be merely a civil matter and a grave sin on her part in the eyes of God.

If she did seek an annulment, then she would have to prove that her marriage was illegitimate from the beginning.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: parentsfortruth on August 02, 2013, 10:00:02 AM
Quote from: parentsfortruth
Also, if she is Catholic, they would have to get an annulment for her to carry on with someone else, and he definitely would easily be able to prove that it's not legitimate.


Let me quantify this better. Maybe that came out wrong. If she is catholic, she would have to get an annulment to be able to try to be with someone else, if that was her goal.

The husband would be able to prove that the marriage was legit from the beginning, and -her asking- for the annulment has no ground and would be able to stop her from obtaining one.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 02, 2013, 10:07:14 AM
Quote from: parentsfortruth
Quote from: Tiffany
What isn't legitimate and who is he proving it to?

Annulment or not it would steal mean the breakup of his family? I don't get what that has to do with his situation?


I don't know what state he lives in. Some states have "no fault" divorces, and some states have different rules on it. Sometimes one side has to prove that there was fault in a divorce. The point is, he would be able to show in the future to the children, if she did really try to go through with this, that he was doing the right thing in the eyes of God.

Divorce is a secular thing. The Catholic Church does not grant divorces, so this would be merely a civil matter and a grave sin on her part in the eyes of God.

If she did seek an annulment, then she would have to prove that her marriage was illegitimate from the beginning.


It's a civil matter but it's going to mean his family is broken up, they will live in separate places, he will most likely have limited access to his children.

What does her seeking an annulment after she divorces him have to do with his situation to her now?
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 10:08:06 AM
Quote from: parentsfortruth
Vaccines are a huge risk. All you have to do is ask my sister who has two that are nearly entirely dependent on my sister for almost everything. They were perfectly fine babbling babies when they got those vaccines.


Very sorry to hear this, but "your sister" is not a double blind clinical trial.  Your are letting a personal experience cloud your judgement about something and you don't have any objective proof that they were perfectly fine babbling babies and did not have those problems latent waiting to come out.

Correlation does not imply causation.

1000s of children have those same vaccines and don't develop any problems, so vaccines are not a "huge" risk.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 02, 2013, 10:08:55 AM
Quote from: parentsfortruth
Quote from: parentsfortruth
Also, if she is Catholic, they would have to get an annulment for her to carry on with someone else, and he definitely would easily be able to prove that it's not legitimate.


Let me quantify this better. Maybe that came out wrong. If she is catholic, she would have to get an annulment to be able to try to be with someone else, if that was her goal.

The husband would be able to prove that the marriage was legit from the beginning, and -her asking- for the annulment has no ground and would be able to stop her from obtaining one.


If she is with someone else or not, once they are (civilly) divorced his family is going to be broken up.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 10:12:55 AM
Quote from: parentsfortruth

Let me quantify this better. Maybe that came out wrong. If she is catholic, she would have to get an annulment to be able to try to be with someone else, if that was her goal.


She's using a IUD or Coil.  She's hardly likely to care about the Church's opinion on her marital status.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: parentsfortruth on August 02, 2013, 10:19:51 AM
Quote from: ggreg
Quote from: parentsfortruth
Vaccines are a huge risk. All you have to do is ask my sister who has two that are nearly entirely dependent on my sister for almost everything. They were perfectly fine babbling babies when they got those vaccines.


Very sorry to hear this, but "your sister" is not a double blind clinical trial.  Your are letting a personal experience cloud your judgement about something and you don't have any objective proof that they were perfectly fine babbling babies and did not have those problems latent waiting to come out.

Correlation does not imply causation.

1000s of children have those same vaccines and don't develop any problems, so vaccines are not a "huge" risk.


There are plenty of studies, and the fact that autism has increased at hundreds of percent in the last 30 years ought to tell any addle brained person that there's something WRONG with the vaccines. Do you even read about this stuff, or do you just enjoy blinders instead?
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 10:22:27 AM
I have a 12 year old autistic child, who also seemed 'normal' as a baby, so I have read quite a bit yes.  
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: parentsfortruth on August 02, 2013, 10:23:33 AM
Quote from: ggreg
Quote from: parentsfortruth

Let me quantify this better. Maybe that came out wrong. If she is catholic, she would have to get an annulment to be able to try to be with someone else, if that was her goal.


She's using a IUD or Coil.  She's hardly likely to care about the Church's opinion on her marital status.


Then the bottom line is that she's a fallen away Catholic. She needs prayers from the husband and more. He needs the advice of a true priest on this matter.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: parentsfortruth on August 02, 2013, 10:24:34 AM
Quote from: ggreg
I have a 12 year old autistic child, who also seemed 'normal' as a baby, so I have read quite a bit yes.  


And you're still flag waving for vaccines?
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 10:26:11 AM
I am not even sure she is a Catholic.  All we know at this stage is that Gooch her husband is a convert of just under 2 years (or thereabouts).  So I am assuming she is a non-Catholic or CINO rather than a practicing Novus Ordinarian.

Might be buried in one of the other threads.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: parentsfortruth on August 02, 2013, 10:28:01 AM
Then this is a matter that should be left to a good confessor.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Zeitun on August 02, 2013, 10:31:59 AM
The devil is in the details.

gooch, I'm seeing this from a different perspective than the others.  They are all correct of course.  But I see satan working here with the goal of DIVORCE.  He will use something good like your aversion to contraception to achieve his end.  See, when people get divorced it's almost impossible to stay in a state of grace.  Because of loneliness there WILL be other relationships, on both sides, that will either come close to adultery or will in fact be adultery.

Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up.  Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife.  Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control.  While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church.  You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.  

Yes, she is a feminist.  Yes, you have God-given authority to be in charge of the family.  Yes, she has no right to prevent you from impregnating her.  But none of this will matter if you split.  You are not required to continue to produce more children.  Your goal should be to convince her to use no contraception and the only way to do that is to remove her fear that you will force her to produce more babies.  She is nearing menopause anyway and her fertility is declining.

Again, the issues raised by the other posters are correct but divorce is not an option.  It's a lie of the world that Catholics can SEEK divorce and remain in a state of grace.  The Church has NEVER taught that dogmatically.

Be assured that if you split, satan will make sure you meet a sweet, trad lady who would love to have babies with you and cater to all your desires.  She will be everything your wife isn't.  But the relationship will be evil.

I don't want to offend anyone.  Take what I have written with a grain of salt and TALK TO A TRADITIONAL PRIEST.  

FYI--I have a child with austism spectrum and this child had a strong reaction to the MMR given around age 2-3 months.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 10:36:58 AM
Quote from: parentsfortruth
Quote from: ggreg
I have a 12 year old autistic child, who also seemed 'normal' as a baby, so I have read quite a bit yes.  


And you're still flag waving for vaccines?


and the fact that autism has increased at hundreds of percent in the last 30 years ought to tell any addle brained person that there's something WRONG with the vaccines

It might be one of many other factors.  Not least the widespread use of the contraceptive pill and hormones in the drinking water.  Additives in food.

And that is assuming that there is any statistically significant rise at all.

http://www.asatonline.org/about_autism/ontherise

I'm not waving the flag for vaccines.  Just for calm and rational thinking and not assuming there is a conspiracy boogie man around every corner.

I can't see that the NWO can both want to abort handicapped children while also, at the same time, want to make perfectly healthy children deliberated handicapped.  That seems counter-productive if you want to build a godless masonic utopia.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 10:44:21 AM
Quote from: Zeitun
 While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church.  You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.  

Your goal should be to convince her to use no contraception and the only way to do that is to remove her fear that you will force her to produce more babies.  She is nearing menopause anyway and her fertility is declining.


Good advice, though I question how he makes a convincing argument to the bit in red above.

If she removes the coil, biologically speaking the only way she can be 'sure' and therefore have 'no fear' is if they do not have sex until the menopause.

Otherwise he can lessen the fear, but he cannot remove it.  She might get pregnant again.

And yes, I know she might get pregnant on the coil, but she perceives that as a lot safer than any NFP method.  Perception is reality as far as any argument Gooch is making goes.  At least at the start.







The Wind and the Sun were disputing which was the stronger. Suddenly they saw a traveller coming down the road, and the Sun said: "I see a way to decide our dispute. Whichever of us can cause that traveller to take off his cloak shall be regarded as the stronger. You begin." So the Sun retired behind a cloud, and the Wind began to blow as hard as it could upon the traveller. But the harder he blew the more closely did the traveller wrap his cloak round him, till at last the Wind had to give up in despair. Then the Sun came out and shone in all his glory upon the
traveller, who soon found it too hot to walk with his cloak on.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 02, 2013, 10:45:46 AM
Quote from: Zeitun


Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up.  Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife.  Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control.  While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church.  You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.  



His wife has an IUD, threatening divorce because he won't go along with a mortals sin,  and he is being accused of ruling her with an iron rod and not loving her?
Zeitun you claim to be traditional and not a feminist but this is right from them.  

ETA:  to be more polite :)
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 02, 2013, 10:47:52 AM
Quote from: ggreg
Quote from: Zeitun
 While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church.  You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.  

Your goal should be to convince her to use no contraception and the only way to do that is to remove her fear that you will force her to produce more babies.  She is nearing menopause anyway and her fertility is declining.


Good advice, though I question how he makes a convincing argument to the bit in red above.

If she removes the coil, biologically speaking the only way she can be sure and therefore have no fear is if they do not have sex until the menopause.

Otherwise he can lessen the fear, but he cannot remove it.  She might get pregnant again.







The Wind and the Sun were disputing which was the stronger. Suddenly they saw a traveller coming down the road, and the Sun said: "I see a way to decide our dispute. Whichever of us can cause that traveller to take off his cloak shall be regarded as the stronger. You begin." So the Sun retired behind a cloud, and the Wind began to blow as hard as it could upon the traveller. But the harder he blew the more closely did the traveller wrap his cloak round him, till at last the Wind had to give up in despair. Then the Sun came out and shone in all his glory upon the
traveller, who soon found it too hot to walk with his cloak on.
I agree I know women 46 - 48 that are still having babies.  :baby:
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 11:09:17 AM
And by the way, I wouldn't give the MMR jab to my children not because I question its connection with autism but simply because I don't think Measles, Mumps or German Measles (Rubella) are particularly dangerous and doing 3 inoculations at once does seem like a money saving exercise.

But, if my wife REALLY wanted to give them inoculations, then I would seek out the most ethical and least risky way of doing it, and take some minor risks for the sake of keeping her happy and feeling like what she thinks actually matters.  She gave birth to them after all.

I would research it on the internet and discuss it with her in bed.  Get her input and go for that option.  That is what successful married couples do.

In the end what do the "risks" matter anyway?  Why are so called Traditional Catholics so afraid of autism or vaccines causing some minor risk of death or other problems?  My son is great.  Love him to bits.  He cannot commit a mortal sin, is assured of salvation, has lots of younger brothers and sisters to look after him when I've gone.  My other children might all disappoint me and lose their souls, but he cannot.

I thought Trads were supposed to welcome the crosses God sends.   :confused1:

Why for the sake of a very slight reduction of risk (even if you buy the whole MMR connection, the chances are less than 1%), would you drive a wedge between yourself and your wife and thereby risk your marriage and your entire family's eternal souls?

That's just short sighted.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 02, 2013, 11:22:48 AM
Quote from: ggreg
And by the way, I wouldn't give the MMR jab to my children not because I question its connection with autism but simply because I don't think Measles, Mumps or German Measles (Rubella) are particularly dangerous and doing 3 inoculations at once does seem like a money saving exercise.

But, if my wife REALLY wanted to give them inoculations, then I would seek out the most ethical and least risky way of doing it, and take some minor risks for the sake of keeping her happy and feeling like what she thinks actually matters.  She gave birth to them after all.

I would research it on the internet and discuss it with her in bed.  Get her input and go for that option.  That is what successful married couples do.

In the end what do the "risks" matter anyway?  Why are so called Traditional Catholics so afraid of autism or vaccines causing some minor risk of death or other problems?  My son is great.  Love him to bits.  He cannot commit a mortal sin, is assured of salvation, has lots of younger brothers and sisters to look after him when I've gone.  My other children might all disappoint me and lose their souls, but he cannot.

I thought Trads were supposed to welcome the crosses God sends.   :confused1:

Why for the sake of a very slight reduction of risk (even if you buy the whole MMR connection, the chances are less than 1%), would you drive a wedge between yourself and your wife and thereby risk your marriage and your entire family's eternal souls?

That's just short sighted.
you are one twisted person.. we are to disregard what we feel are safety measures for our children because we welcome all children
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Zeitun on August 02, 2013, 11:39:48 AM
Quote from: Tiffany
Quote from: Zeitun


Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up.  Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife.  Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control.  While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church.  You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.  



His wife has an IUD, threatening divorce because he won't go along with a mortals sin,  and he is being accused of ruling her with an iron rod and not loving her?
Zeitun you claim to be traditional and not a feminist but this is right from them.  

ETA:  to be more polite :)


Are you married?
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Zeitun on August 02, 2013, 11:45:38 AM
Quote from: ggreg
Quote from: Zeitun
 While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church.  You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.  

Your goal should be to convince her to use no contraception and the only way to do that is to remove her fear that you will FORCE her to produce more babies.  She is nearing menopause anyway and her fertility is declining.


Good advice, though I question how he makes a convincing argument to the bit in red above.

If she removes the coil, biologically speaking the only way she can be 'sure' and therefore have 'no fear' is if they do not have sex until the menopause.

Otherwise he can lessen the fear, but he cannot remove it.  She might get pregnant again.

And yes, I know she might get pregnant on the coil, but she perceives that as a lot safer than any NFP method.  Perception is reality as far as any argument Gooch is making goes.  At least at the start.


I actually don't believe her biggest fear is pregnancy.  I think her biggest fear is that he doesn't care about her and her "needs".  Remember his wife is not a real Catholic so her "needs" would be worldly (which I think he's already stated).  Again I believe the issue is control not babies.  Note the word "force" above.

Non-Catholics don't care about morality and truth the way Catholics do so those arguments will backfire.  He has to appeal to her common sense and vanity.  Unfortunately.  Conversion is possible.  I speak from experience.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 11:49:29 AM
We disregard safety measures every time we swing our children a little too high at the playground, and they smile half with delight and half with fear, put them on a roller coaster, let them swim in the ocean, let them crawl and play at our feet in the kitchen, fail to install a stairgate or carelessly leave it open, let them ride their bicycles without a crash helmet, go camping with the BoyScouts, go to the shops on their own, play near railway tracks, play rugby football.

How about the safety measure of being around for them when they are growing up.  Don't you think it is a little bit more dangerous for girls and boys who grow up without a father living at home to guide them, mentor them and instruct them?

If by being rigid about any of the safety measures in the first paragraph, I precipitate a situation where my wife divorces me and I am no longer around, then that was not such a great risk control device was it?  You swerved to avoid a dog, yes, but right into the path of an on-coming truck.

Life is full of these trade offs.  Risk cannot be avoided.  It is part of life.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 11:52:52 AM
Quote from: Zeitun
Quote from: ggreg
Quote from: Zeitun
 While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church.  You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.  

Your goal should be to convince her to use no contraception and the only way to do that is to remove her fear that you will FORCE her to produce more babies.  She is nearing menopause anyway and her fertility is declining.


Good advice, though I question how he makes a convincing argument to the bit in red above.

If she removes the coil, biologically speaking the only way she can be 'sure' and therefore have 'no fear' is if they do not have sex until the menopause.

Otherwise he can lessen the fear, but he cannot remove it.  She might get pregnant again.

And yes, I know she might get pregnant on the coil, but she perceives that as a lot safer than any NFP method.  Perception is reality as far as any argument Gooch is making goes.  At least at the start.


I actually don't believe her biggest fear is pregnancy.  I think her biggest fear is that he doesn't care about her and her "needs".  Remember his wife is not a real Catholic so her "needs" would be worldly (which I think he's already stated).  Again I believe the issue is control not babies.  Note the word "force" above.

Non-Catholics don't care about morality and truth the way Catholics do so those arguments will backfire.  He has to appeal to her common sense and vanity.  Unfortunately.  Conversion is possible.  I speak from experience.


All pretty cryptic.  What does she fear then?  Hospital food?

Of course she fears pregnancy.  That is why she had the coil inserted.  Duh!
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 02, 2013, 11:59:51 AM
Quote from: Zeitun
Quote from: Tiffany
Quote from: Zeitun


Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up.  Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife.  Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control.  While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church.  You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.  



His wife has an IUD, threatening divorce because he won't go along with a mortals sin,  and he is being accused of ruling her with an iron rod and not loving her?
Zeitun you claim to be traditional and not a feminist but this is right from them.  

ETA:  to be more polite :)


Are you married?
I am not married. It doesn't take being married to recognize the feminist influenced pop marriage advice.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Capt McQuigg on August 02, 2013, 12:01:21 PM
Gregg,

Her fears are really just the expression of his disbelief in God.  She doesn't believe in God.  We need to be straight about that.  

The best solution is the one that is no longer on the table and that is - do not marry a non-Trad Catholic girl.  
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Zeitun on August 02, 2013, 12:04:54 PM
Quote from: Tiffany
Quote from: Zeitun
Quote from: Tiffany
Quote from: Zeitun


Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up.  Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife.  Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control.  While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church.  You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.  



His wife has an IUD, threatening divorce because he won't go along with a mortals sin,  and he is being accused of ruling her with an iron rod and not loving her?
Zeitun you claim to be traditional and not a feminist but this is right from them.  

ETA:  to be more polite :)


Are you married?
I am not married. It doesn't take being married to recognize the feminist influenced pop marriage advice.


Tiffany,

By your own admission you know very little about the Faith and you lack politeness.

Would you like me to go through this entire forum and post all your quasi-feminist statements?  

And my "feminist-influenced pop marriage advice" comes from Fr. Pfeiffer who has been ministering to my family for a while.  So perhaps I should quit listening to him and start listening to you?

No Tiffany, a divorced woman doesn't know the first thing about marriage so be quiet please.

Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 12:07:42 PM
Quote from: Capt McQuigg
The best solution is the one that is no longer on the table and that is - do not marry a non-Trad Catholic girl.  



Great Captain.  I am sure that is great advice for every NON-Trad man when he gets married.  All men should marry Trad-Girls, just in case they want to convert later.

The OP unfortunately was not a Catholic when he married his wife and missed your memo.

Had he known he would convert 12 years later though, this would have been valuable advice.

Now can we get back to the problem of the OP, Gooch?
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 12:13:18 PM
Quote from: Zeitun
Quote from: Tiffany
Quote from: Zeitun
Quote from: Tiffany
Quote from: Zeitun


Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up.  Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife.  Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control.  While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church.  You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.  



His wife has an IUD, threatening divorce because he won't go along with a mortals sin,  and he is being accused of ruling her with an iron rod and not loving her?
Zeitun you claim to be traditional and not a feminist but this is right from them.  

ETA:  to be more polite :)


Are you married?
I am not married. It doesn't take being married to recognize the feminist influenced pop marriage advice.


Tiffany,

By your own admission you know very little about the Faith and you lack politeness.

Would you like me to go through this entire forum and post all your quasi-feminist statements?  

And my "feminist-influenced pop marriage advice" comes from Fr. Pfeiffer who has been ministering to my family for a while.  So perhaps I should quit listening to him and start listening to you?

No Tiffany, a divorced woman doesn't know the first thing about marriage so be quiet please.



And that my friends is why 'the resistance' will never survive and thrive.  It is made up of perfectionists, pedants, prigs and purists who will never be able to reach a consensus on anything.  A house divided against itself and all that good stuff.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Capt McQuigg on August 02, 2013, 12:14:58 PM
Quote from: ggreg
Quote from: Capt McQuigg
The best solution is the one that is no longer on the table and that is - do not marry a non-Trad Catholic girl.  



Great Captain.  I am sure that is great advice for every NON-Trad man when he gets married.  All men should marry Trad-Girls, just in case they want to convert later.

The OP unfortunately was not a Catholic when he married his wife and missed your memo.

Had he known he would convert 12 years later though, this would have been valuable advice.

Now can we get back to the problem of the OP, Gooch?


That's just it, Greg.  It's the greatest advice out there.  

And it's also why Vatican II was such a disaster.  Many novus ordo girls out there would be great Trad Catholic girls if the Pope didn't do away with Catholicism and embrace conciliarism.  

I tell my sons that all the time.  Marry a Trad girl.  

Some non-Trad girls may convert, that is, if they do not possess a rancid soul.  
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Capt McQuigg on August 02, 2013, 12:46:28 PM
So, Gooch has a major moral dilemma in his family because he married a girl who is nonchalant and sees herself as the ultimate creator by using birth control.  That's where she is morally and it's a state of mortal sin.  

Gooch is stuck with this.  Gooch has screwed the pooch!  In a manner of speaking.    

So, what's Gooch to do now?  

I say follow the advice I gave earlier.  Sanctify himself with prayer, sacrifice, assisting at the Traditional Catholic Mass ONLY and bring his children with him.  Sanctify himself and then sanctify the children.  

It's a process and it may take months.  

Gooch will have to pray the Rosary daily with intentions for his wife and her conversion and for the children that they may embrace fully the Traditional Catholic faith.  

Gooch will need to refrain from all immoral practices, giving up all porn, lust, and even limit his intake of TV.  

Gooch will need to go to a Traditional Catholic priest for a General Confession.  This will take much prayer and meditation on Gooch's part and then he will have to have the courage to go into the confessional and spill the beans entirely.

Gooch will need to be patient with his wife but he will also have to spell it out for her that what she is doing is repulsive from a secular point of view but absolute death of the soul in the supernatural realm.  He will have to revisit this conversation several times.  If his wife divorces him over this, then she probably possesses a rancid soul.  

Gooch should also start to purchase plaster statues of Catholic saints, in particular Our Lady, have them blessed by a priest and then display them in prominent spots in the home.  Consecrate the home to the Sacred Heart.  

There should be a crucifix in every room (except the bathroom).  

Gooch has to take a stand and make a change.  Change is good if it's in the direction of embracing the Traditional Catholic faith.  

When a guy marries a girl who is openly using birth control, he probably has a lot of problems in addition to the wife.  So Gooch will have to single out these problems and conquer them one after the other.  

It's even possible that Gooch, by asking for advice on this forum, may not even be the intended beneficiary of this advice.  The blessings may be reserved for one of his children or one of his grandchildren.  

The blessing may even be for the child his wife gives birth to after she gets rid of that absolutely soul-killing and rancid practice of birth control.  

I wish Gooch all the luck in the world and may God bless him.

Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 02, 2013, 12:48:13 PM
Quote from: Zeitun
Quote from: Tiffany
Quote from: Zeitun
Quote from: Tiffany
Quote from: Zeitun


Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up.  Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife.  Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control.  While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church.  You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.  



His wife has an IUD, threatening divorce because he won't go along with a mortals sin,  and he is being accused of ruling her with an iron rod and not loving her?
Zeitun you claim to be traditional and not a feminist but this is right from them.  

ETA:  to be more polite :)


Are you married?
I am not married. It doesn't take being married to recognize the feminist influenced pop marriage advice.


Tiffany,

By your own admission you know very little about the Faith and you lack politeness.

Would you like me to go through this entire forum and post all your quasi-feminist statements?  

And my "feminist-influenced pop marriage advice" comes from Fr. Pfeiffer who has been ministering to my family for a while.  So perhaps I should quit listening to him and start listening to you?

No Tiffany, a divorced woman doesn't know the first thing about marriage so be quiet please.



Zeutin I'm not getting into a ___ contest with someone on the internet. It's a public board, if you want to repost my posts, you are free to. I try to reject feminism and try to especially encourage young women towards  traditional values when I interact with them.  

Again a person doesn't need to be married to recognize feminism.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: parentsfortruth on August 02, 2013, 12:48:30 PM
Quote from: ggreg
Quote from: parentsfortruth
Quote from: ggreg
I have a 12 year old autistic child, who also seemed 'normal' as a baby, so I have read quite a bit yes.  


And you're still flag waving for vaccines?


and the fact that autism has increased at hundreds of percent in the last 30 years ought to tell any addle brained person that there's something WRONG with the vaccines

It might be one of many other factors.  Not least the widespread use of the contraceptive pill and hormones in the drinking water.  Additives in food.

And that is assuming that there is any statistically significant rise at all.

http://www.asatonline.org/about_autism/ontherise

I'm not waving the flag for vaccines.  Just for calm and rational thinking and not assuming there is a conspiracy boogie man around every corner.

I can't see that the NWO can both want to abort handicapped children while also, at the same time, want to make perfectly healthy children deliberated handicapped.  That seems counter-productive if you want to build a godless masonic utopia.


Let's address your so-called "other factors" quickly.

If it's "in the drinking water," why are children that are nursing that are not consuming tap water at all (in my sister's case) totally normal until they get the shot?

If it's "additives in foods" then why are these babies that are drinking goat's milk if they're not breastfed getting this same thing after vaccination?

Both of the mothers I know were breastfeeding. So that wasn't the cause of their problems.

You can make all kinds of other excuses, but the fact is, they're so afraid of people finding out about the threat of vaccines... to keep people in the dark about it, that they had to make a SEPARATE COURT to deal with the nasty reactions, and barely anyone gets compensated. If they were dealt with in a normal court, these pharms would be BROKE!
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: parentsfortruth on August 02, 2013, 12:51:57 PM
Quote from: ggreg
And by the way, I wouldn't give the MMR jab to my children not because I question its connection with autism but simply because I don't think Measles, Mumps or German Measles (Rubella) are particularly dangerous and doing 3 inoculations at once does seem like a money saving exercise.

But, if my wife REALLY wanted to give them inoculations, then I would seek out the most ethical and least risky way of doing it, and take some minor risks for the sake of keeping her happy and feeling like what she thinks actually matters.  She gave birth to them after all.

I would research it on the internet and discuss it with her in bed.  Get her input and go for that option.  That is what successful married couples do.

In the end what do the "risks" matter anyway?  Why are so called Traditional Catholics so afraid of autism or vaccines causing some minor risk of death or other problems?  My son is great.  Love him to bits.  He cannot commit a mortal sin, is assured of salvation, has lots of younger brothers and sisters to look after him when I've gone.  My other children might all disappoint me and lose their souls, but he cannot.

I thought Trads were supposed to welcome the crosses God sends.   :confused1:

Why for the sake of a very slight reduction of risk (even if you buy the whole MMR connection, the chances are less than 1%), would you drive a wedge between yourself and your wife and thereby risk your marriage and your entire family's eternal souls?

That's just short sighted.


So knowing that mercury is poisonous and giving children shots, because we're "supposed to accept crosses that God sends?" A TOTALLY PREVENTABLE THING? Just don't get the shot? Is a virtuous act to POISON your child? "Because we should accept the crosses God sends?" That's warped.

I'm sure if these parents with autism on this board had KNOWN about these things BEFORE the shots, they would NEVER have given them.

There are fetal stem cells in many of these shots, which ALONE is against our religion. THE END does not justify THE MEANS.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: John Grace on August 02, 2013, 12:53:34 PM
My advice is discuss with a priest.As for NFP, I am not married but very  much against NFP. It's not right.The providence of God will determine how many children a married couple have.The talk of charts and like is not of God.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: 1st Mansion Tenant on August 02, 2013, 12:56:22 PM
My family is pretty much convinced that the only reason my son is not autistic is because  his doctor signed off on the last rounds of vaccination he needed to start school. As it is, he has symptoms of a high-functioning Aspie. I am not sure which is scarier, the vaccination or the diseases they prevent.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Zeitun on August 02, 2013, 01:09:59 PM
Quote from: Tiffany
Zeutin I'm not getting into a ___ contest with someone on the internet. It's a public board, if you want to repost my posts, you are free to. I try to reject feminism and try to especially encourage young women towards  traditional values when I interact with them.  

Again a person doesn't need to be married to recognize feminism.


Tiffany,

You've not been shy about posting details of your disordered life.  Perhaps you should take Our Lord's advice and not judge as the hypocrites do.  It's certainly not the womanly thing to do to accuse others of feminism without first examining your own conscience.

God bless!!!!  :cheers:
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 01:33:02 PM
Quote from: parentsfortruth
Quote from: ggreg
And by the way, I wouldn't give the MMR jab to my children not because I question its connection with autism but simply because I don't think Measles, Mumps or German Measles (Rubella) are particularly dangerous and doing 3 inoculations at once does seem like a money saving exercise.

But, if my wife REALLY wanted to give them inoculations, then I would seek out the most ethical and least risky way of doing it, and take some minor risks for the sake of keeping her happy and feeling like what she thinks actually matters.  She gave birth to them after all.

I would research it on the internet and discuss it with her in bed.  Get her input and go for that option.  That is what successful married couples do.

In the end what do the "risks" matter anyway?  Why are so called Traditional Catholics so afraid of autism or vaccines causing some minor risk of death or other problems?  My son is great.  Love him to bits.  He cannot commit a mortal sin, is assured of salvation, has lots of younger brothers and sisters to look after him when I've gone.  My other children might all disappoint me and lose their souls, but he cannot.

I thought Trads were supposed to welcome the crosses God sends.   :confused1:

Why for the sake of a very slight reduction of risk (even if you buy the whole MMR connection, the chances are less than 1%), would you drive a wedge between yourself and your wife and thereby risk your marriage and your entire family's eternal souls?

That's just short sighted.


So knowing that mercury is poisonous and giving children shots, because we're "supposed to accept crosses that God sends?" A TOTALLY PREVENTABLE THING? Just don't get the shot? Is a virtuous act to POISON your child? "Because we should accept the crosses God sends?" That's warped.

I'm sure if these parents with autism on this board had KNOWN about these things BEFORE the shots, they would NEVER have given them.

There are fetal stem cells in many of these shots, which ALONE is against our religion. THE END does not justify THE MEANS.


There are not fetal stem cells in many of the shots you ignoramus.  How could that possibly be?  You think they liquidize babies and make shots out of them?  Cells injected into people would be attacked by your immune system.  

Some of the vaccines use fetal stem cell lines, from many many years ago.  i.e. Cells that have been grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, before any vaccines are tested on them.

Yes, originally those cells came from an aborted baby but given that they already exist and the lines exist and the damage has been done and the baby died decades ago the Church has stated that it is OK to have these inoculations.

If you found out that your grandfather took a cutting of a rare and valuable imported tree, trespassed on someone's land in 1901 to do it and that man called the police and had him arrested for trespass and theft, would you go and cut down the 100 year old tree that the cutting grew from because good cannot come from evil acts?

In some way would you be in possession of a stolen rare tree?
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 02, 2013, 01:36:31 PM
http://www.immunizationinfo.org/issues/vaccine-components/human-fetal-links-some-vaccines

Of the many lies told by anti-vaccination advocates, this is one of the worst, because it hits on a real moral issue. However, anyone with a modicum of training in biology will tell you that it is impossible for vaccines (or any other injected medicine) to contain human tissue. The reason is simple: if you are injected with anything containing tissue from another person, your body will immediately recognize it as an invader and begin attacking it. This immune response is often quite radical and can easily lead to death! This is why blood from a donor to a recipient must be carefully matched before the recipient can receive it. Thus, there is no human tissue of any kind in vaccines. Unfortunately, the anti-vaccination movement (and even some naive pro- life groups) will try to convince the uninformed that vaccines contain tissue from aborted babies and that abortions must be continually done to supply this tissue to the "evil" drug companies. This is, of course, a bald-faced lie. Unfortunately, this lie is particularly evil, in that it targets a person's morally correct view that abortion is murder.

For any lie to be successful, there must be a grain of truth in it. This lie is no exception. There is a tangential connection between some vaccines and abortion. The Hepatitis A vaccine, the MMR vaccine, and the chicken pox vaccine all contain viruses (weakened or inactivated) that were grown in human cells. A virus must be given a medium in which to propagate. Many vaccines use viruses that can propagate in several kinds of mammal cells, but some viruses are so specific that they can only propagate in human cells. The viruses used in the above-listed vaccines are that specific. Thus, they must be grown in human cells.

Where do the vaccine companies get the cells for these vaccines? They get them from companies like Coriell Cell Repositories, 403 Haddon Avenu, Camden, New Jersey 08103, 800-752-3805. This company has many cell lines, which are cultures of self-perpetuating cells. Each culture of cells is continually reproducing, making more cells. Those cells are sold to researchers, drug companies, and other medical technology firms. The specific cell lines used in vaccines are the MRC-5 and WI-38 cell lines1, and they have been supplying medical research of all types for more than 35 years. Where do these cell lines come from? That's where the grain of truth in this lie comes from. Both of these cell lines were cultured from cells taken from two abortions, one (MRC-5) that was performed in September,19662 and one (WI-38) that was performed in July, 19623.

Now that you have learned the facts, we can discuss the moral issues involved. Is it immoral to use these cell lines to make vaccines? The answer is definitely not. You might think that the cell lines are somehow "tainted" because they come from abortions; however, think about it for a moment. Abortion is murder. A person who claims to be a physician purposefully kills an innocent, unprotected person. That is evil, and there is no doubt about it. However, let's consider another murder, shall we? Let's suppose one of your loved ones was shot in a robbery attempt. You rush your loved one to the hospital, but it is too late. Your loved one dies. This is another murder, and it is just as evil.

Suppose that the doctors rush in and tell you that there is a young boy in the next room who needs a heart immediately, or he will die. The doctors have analyzed your loved one's blood and found that your loved one is a perfect match for the dying boy. Would you donate your loved one's heart to the boy? I certainly would. It would be a tragedy that my loved one was murdered, but at least this would be a "silver lining" in that dark cloud. At least my loved one's death would mean that a young boy could live.

The cells that were taken from the two aborted babies more than 35 years ago are much like my loved one's heart. Two innocent babies were killed. However, they were able to donate something that has been used not only to make vaccines, but in many medical research projects over the years. Thus, these cells have been saving millions of lives for almost two generations! Although the babies were clearly murdered, the fact that their cells have been saving lives is at least a silver lining in the dark cloud of their tragic murder.

It is important to note that Federal law is quite specific in the matter of donated fetal tissue. The law does not allow for an abortion to be performed for the purpose of donating tissue, and the law even explicitly states that the abortion procedure cannot be changed in order to collect the tissue4. It also prohibits the baby's family or the doctor from profiting from the donation5. Thus, these cells were truly donated, just as any organ might be donated. If a person is an organ donor and he or she is murdered, it is not immoral for you to use those organs. Once again, at least something good will come out of the murder if those organs are used.

Now that you know the facts, you can see why I consider this lie so devious. Anti-vaccination advocates play on a person's proper moral indignation about abortion, claiming that if a person gets vaccinated, he or she is supporting the abortion industry. Of course, nothing could be further from the truth. Whether or not you get vaccinated, the same number of abortions will be performed, as abortions are not necessary to make new vaccines. In addition, you are actually dishonoring the memories of those two precious babies if you refuse vaccination, because you are refusing the one good thing that has come from their murder. At the same time, you are putting your life and the lives of your loved ones in jeopardy by refusing one of the greatest protections that medicine has ever developed! How could anyone call himself pro-life if he dishonors the memory of those who have been murdered while risking the lives of those he loves?

Interestingly enough, a June 9, 2005 statement from the Pontifical Academy for Life (the Vatican's official voice in the area of abortion/right-to-life) comes to essentially the same conclusion. Even though some organizations have mischaracterized the document as condemning the use of such vaccines6, the document, in fact, says quite the opposite. It says that when an alternative vaccine which has no connection whatsoever to abortion is available, parents should use it. There is no question that this is the moral thing to do. In addition, when there is no alternative available, parents should object by demonstration, etc. so as to force manufactures to come up with an alternative.

However, as for actually using the vaccines that have no alternatives, the document clearly says that parents can do so in order to protect their children and the community. The English translation of the document (originally written in Italian) says, "As regards the vaccines without an alternative, the need to contest so that others may be prepared must be reaffirmed, as should be the lawfulness of using the former in the meantime insomuch as is necessary in order to avoid a serious risk not only for one's own children but also, and perhaps more specifically, for the health conditions of the population as a whole - especially for pregnant women."7 Note what this official Roman Catholic document says. It says that parents should CONTEST the vaccines so as to force the manufactures to find new ways to make them, but UNTIL THAT HAPPENS, parents can still use the vaccines that have no alternative, because it will allow them to avoid serious risk to their children, and more importantly, to the population as a whole. The moral good done by the vaccine, then, outweighs any moral evil when it comes to actually USING the vaccine. The statement clearly says the MAKING of the vaccine is bad, but the USE of it is not. In fact, the document specifically mentions rubella as something that should be vaccinated against, even though there is no alternative vaccine - "Moreover, we find, in such a case, a proportional reason, in order to accept the use of these vaccines in the presence of the danger of favouring the spread of the pathological agent, due to the lack of vaccination of children. This is particularly true in the case of vaccination against German measles."7

Because some organizations have tried to mischaracterize this statement, the Catholic News Service (CNS) produced an article that quotes Msgr. Jacques Suaudeau, a medical doctor and official at the Pontifical Academy for Life, as saying, "If the health of the child or of the whole population [is at risk], the parents should accept having their kid be vaccinated if there is no alternative." 8 Because some organizations clearly do not like the Roman Catholic church officially saying that the use of these vaccines is morally acceptable, they have asked the Pontifical Academy for Life to change its statement. However, CNS reports that Msgr. Jacques Suaudeau said the document "could not be changed" because it accurately reflected church teaching.8 Despite what you might read, then, even the Vatican supports the use of vaccines that have a tangential relationship to abortion, as long as no alternative vaccines are available.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Emerentiana on August 02, 2013, 01:46:38 PM
Ive read this whole thread.  Some of you have been working feverishly to derail it.  Now, we are talking about organic food and vaccinations.  ggreg, your posts are very well put, and you have very good advice.  

My misguided zeal (im a convert also)  caused much friction in my marriage and it  caused a divorce.  I became a Catholic in 1961.  After that the church immediately started changing.  I overreacted and felt like I had to continually fight for the faith.  My husband went Novus Ordo.  I look back over the years, and think of how I could have reacted differently to many situations.  I could write a book on the subject.

Believe me, divorce puts an end to your family and any goals you could have had for your children becoming good catholics.

Ggreg  is who you should listen to, gooch.  I, like others here, would suggest you get counseling from a TRADITIONAL priest only.  He will be able to guide you on how to treat your wife, and what is morally acceptible.    Stay away from the "p r e s b y t e r s " .
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: parentsfortruth on August 02, 2013, 02:04:58 PM
Quote from: ggreg
Quote from: parentsfortruth
Quote from: ggreg
And by the way, I wouldn't give the MMR jab to my children not because I question its connection with autism but simply because I don't think Measles, Mumps or German Measles (Rubella) are particularly dangerous and doing 3 inoculations at once does seem like a money saving exercise.

But, if my wife REALLY wanted to give them inoculations, then I would seek out the most ethical and least risky way of doing it, and take some minor risks for the sake of keeping her happy and feeling like what she thinks actually matters.  She gave birth to them after all.

I would research it on the internet and discuss it with her in bed.  Get her input and go for that option.  That is what successful married couples do.

In the end what do the "risks" matter anyway?  Why are so called Traditional Catholics so afraid of autism or vaccines causing some minor risk of death or other problems?  My son is great.  Love him to bits.  He cannot commit a mortal sin, is assured of salvation, has lots of younger brothers and sisters to look after him when I've gone.  My other children might all disappoint me and lose their souls, but he cannot.

I thought Trads were supposed to welcome the crosses God sends.   :confused1:

Why for the sake of a very slight reduction of risk (even if you buy the whole MMR connection, the chances are less than 1%), would you drive a wedge between yourself and your wife and thereby risk your marriage and your entire family's eternal souls?

That's just short sighted.


So knowing that mercury is poisonous and giving children shots, because we're "supposed to accept crosses that God sends?" A TOTALLY PREVENTABLE THING? Just don't get the shot? Is a virtuous act to POISON your child? "Because we should accept the crosses God sends?" That's warped.

I'm sure if these parents with autism on this board had KNOWN about these things BEFORE the shots, they would NEVER have given them.

There are fetal stem cells in many of these shots, which ALONE is against our religion. THE END does not justify THE MEANS.


There are not fetal stem cells in many of the shots you ignoramus.  How could that possibly be?  You think they liquidize babies and make shots out of them?  Cells injected into people would be attacked by your immune system.  

Some of the vaccines use fetal stem cell lines, from many many years ago.  i.e. Cells that have been grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, grown, cut, frozen, before any vaccines are tested on them.

Yes, originally those cells came from an aborted baby but given that they already exist and the lines exist and the damage has been done and the baby died decades ago the Church has stated that it is OK to have these inoculations.

If you found out that your grandfather took a cutting of a rare and valuable imported tree, trespassed on someone's land in 1901 to do it and that man called the police and had him arrested for trespass and theft, would you go and cut down the 100 year old tree that the cutting grew from because good cannot come from evil acts?

In some way would you be in possession of a stolen rare tree?


The CONcilliar "church" has said that it's "okay." So yeah, you wanna comfort yourself believing that the end justifies the means, then you go right ahead. No pope before these last 6 jokes have even been close to anything like what a true pope would have said. I absolutely reject this.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: parentsfortruth on August 02, 2013, 02:07:32 PM
The reason I am even commenting on the vaccine part is because "ggreg" here has tried to say that gooch was wrong to stop his wife from getting vaccinations for his children. ggreg's arguments are stupid, and I'm pointing it out.

gooch did absolutely the right thing stopping his children from being poisoned, and no matter how much copy pasta ggreg tries to do here, it's not going to change that.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Zeitun on August 02, 2013, 03:33:27 PM
Quote from: Emerentiana
Ive read this whole thread.  Some of you have been working feverishly to derail it.  Now, we are talking about organic food and vaccinations.  ggreg, your posts are very well put, and you have very good advice.  

My misguided zeal (im a convert also)  caused much friction in my marriage and it  caused a divorce.  I became a Catholic in 1961.  After that the church immediately started changing.  I overreacted and felt like I had to continually fight for the faith.  My husband went Novus Ordo.  I look back over the years, and think of how I could have reacted differently to many situations.  I could write a book on the subject.

Believe me, divorce puts an end to your family and any goals you could have had for your children becoming good catholics.

Ggreg  is who you should listen to, gooch.  I, like others here, would suggest you get counseling from a TRADITIONAL priest only.  He will be able to guide you on how to treat your wife, and what is morally acceptible.    Stay away from the "p r e s b y t e r s " .

 :applause: :applause:
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Ambrose on August 02, 2013, 04:12:27 PM
Quote from: Emerentiana
Ive read this whole thread.  Some of you have been working feverishly to derail it.  Now, we are talking about organic food and vaccinations.  ggreg, your posts are very well put, and you have very good advice.  

My misguided zeal (im a convert also)  caused much friction in my marriage and it  caused a divorce.  I became a Catholic in 1961.  After that the church immediately started changing.  I overreacted and felt like I had to continually fight for the faith.  My husband went Novus Ordo.  I look back over the years, and think of how I could have reacted differently to many situations.  I could write a book on the subject.

Believe me, divorce puts an end to your family and any goals you could have had for your children becoming good catholics.

Ggreg  is who you should listen to, gooch.  I, like others here, would suggest you get counseling from a TRADITIONAL priest only.  He will be able to guide you on how to treat your wife, and what is morally acceptible.    Stay away from the "p r e s b y t e r s " .


I think you should write a book about this, or at least an article.  I know a marriage that ended in divorce, and the story was almost identical to yours.  It was very sad, the result of the divorce was that the wife lost educational custody and all of their children went to public school.

Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Telesphorus on August 02, 2013, 04:20:15 PM
Quote from: ggreg
Well, assuming there is only one person to blame, there is a good chance he is the one to blame, since there are only two people involved.


There is no chance gooch is to blame for her decision, you swine.

Quote
If the blame is shared, then I am blaming him because he is the one posting and asking for advice.  Blaming his wife is not constructive.  Obviously she is at fault for getting an IUD, but she's not asking for advice.


Blaming himself for his wife's bad decisions is what is not constructive.  It is delusional to believe that his wife is doing this because of his stand on organic food and vaccinations.  And you are feeding that guilt and delusion for doing the right thing.  Just like his relatives are enabling her with their lies about him.  You're malignant.  You see a man in a bad situation and you pile on like the others.

Quote
Let's assume that you, Tele, are completely correct in your views of how to deal with women and Gooch brings home a stick as thin as his finger and gives her a damn good spanking, or stands there and uses phrases, like exceedingly evil, interloper, ungodly and vicious attack.


Did I say he should do that?  No.  That is a lying misrepresentation of what I said.  Just as it is a lying misrepresentation to make this woman's evil decision a consequence of Gooch making decisions for thefamily.

Quote
How is Mrs Gooch going to react.  Here is a women who after the last baby had a coil fitted.   She's hardly likely to agree with her husband and run off to fetch his pipe and slippers.  Softly, softly catch a monkey.


How would the woman react if her whole family told her husband was right and said they'd never accept her leaving her husband.  If they told her she was to blame and her excuses were pathetic she'd never act this way.  Catholics do not support injustice.

Quote
There is a reason you have never had a girlfriend or a wife Tele and it is because you lack empathy.  You lack an understanding that to get from A to B is sometimes a journey.  People don't just beam there like Captain Kirk.  You probably scare the living crap out of women for this reason.


Wow, of course, this goes to something you've made up: "I've never had girlfriend" - together with a made-up reason "lack of empathy."  I don't think I've ever seen someone less empathetic, arrogant, or more inclined to make things up, than yourself.  I doubt that was your father's "secret" - Oh yes, your whole family is in church every week, because we don't sweat the "small stuff" - like basic integrity.  I tell women I don't believe in contraception.  That has saved me a lot of grief.  

Quote
I've made millions of dollars in business by changing people's minds and making them think about things from a different perspective.


You show a disregard for the truth and for morality, and your justifying your position by how much money you makes shows the impoverishment of your arguments.

Quote
I know a thing or two about practical human psychology and insisting on a person eating and entire moral menu all at once is a good way to guarantee they will vomit it up.


Gooch is acting like a saint and you're blaming him, because you're a damned pharisee.  
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Capt McQuigg on August 02, 2013, 04:20:16 PM
Some of the absolutely most heartbreaking cases are from people who converted to Catholicism only for it to go conciliarism.  
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Zeitun on August 02, 2013, 04:21:41 PM
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Emerentiana
Ive read this whole thread.  Some of you have been working feverishly to derail it.  Now, we are talking about organic food and vaccinations.  ggreg, your posts are very well put, and you have very good advice.  

My misguided zeal (im a convert also)  caused much friction in my marriage and it  caused a divorce.  I became a Catholic in 1961.  After that the church immediately started changing.  I overreacted and felt like I had to continually fight for the faith.  My husband went Novus Ordo.  I look back over the years, and think of how I could have reacted differently to many situations.  I could write a book on the subject.

Believe me, divorce puts an end to your family and any goals you could have had for your children becoming good catholics.

Ggreg  is who you should listen to, gooch.  I, like others here, would suggest you get counseling from a TRADITIONAL priest only.  He will be able to guide you on how to treat your wife, and what is morally acceptible.    Stay away from the "p r e s b y t e r s " .


I think you should write a book about this, or at least an article.  I know a marriage that ended in divorce, and the story was almost identical to yours.  It was very sad, the result of the divorce was that the wife lost educational custody and all of their children went to public school.



Was this the case in Ohio?  If so I heard about that.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Telesphorus on August 02, 2013, 04:22:19 PM
Quote from: ggreg
And that my friends is why 'the resistance' will never survive and thrive.  It is made up of perfectionists, pedants, prigs and purists who will never be able to reach a consensus on anything.  A house divided against itself and all that good stuff.


It's pretty clear to me that the resistance wont survive if it allows liberal subversives who say that for twenty years they've had reservations about Catholicism and about changes they think Constantine made to the interpretation of the Gospel disrupt and propagandize on their web forums.

That is, the very reason for the problems in the SSPX, an infiltration of liberals, is the reason for problems here.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Telesphorus on August 02, 2013, 04:27:06 PM
Quote from: ggreg
Anyway Gooch I will bow out, because this thread will otherwise degenerate into a sh!tfest but please come back in a year or two and resurrect the thread and give us and future readers the benefit of hindsight.  If you save your marriage how did you do it and  if you didn't, what you could have done better if you had a second chance.


Fat chance of that.

Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Zeitun on August 02, 2013, 04:28:41 PM
Quote from: Telesphorus
How would the woman react if her whole family told her husband was right and said they'd never accept her leaving her husband.  If they told her she was to blame and her excuses were pathetic she'd never act this way.  Catholics do not support injustice.


You're absolutely right of course.  But it doesn't sound like the family agrees with Gooch.  Sounds like he's on his own.  

Every priests I've talked to on the issue of a non-Catholic spouse said the same thing--stand your ground but win them over with charity.  

This is one of the worst parts of marriage--the inability to force a spouse to do the right thing and live a virtuous life.

I cannot believe anyone would say you aren't married because your standards are too high.  Impossible.  Wish more men had your standards.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Telesphorus on August 02, 2013, 04:34:06 PM
Quote from: Zeitun
You're absolutely right of course.  But it doesn't sound like the family agrees with Gooch.  Sounds like he's on his own.  


He's on his own against people who think like ggreg, who blame men for the evil women do.

Quote
Every priests I've talked to on the issue of a non-Catholic spouse said the same thing--stand your ground but win them over with charity.  

This is one of the worst parts of marriage--the inability to force a spouse to do the right thing and live a virtuous life.


The men making excuses for women misbehaving and blaming men for what women do are legion.

Quote
I cannot believe anyone would say you aren't married because your standards are too high.  Impossible.  Wish more men had your standards.


Ever notice how the liberal never admits men are rejected for actually accepting the religion.  A woman rejects a man because he doesn't want to practice contraception, wants to follow traditional courtship, or commit to marriage, etc etc, but in ggreg's pathological BS-world, it's because of lack of empathy.

 
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Telesphorus on August 02, 2013, 04:43:04 PM
"If the world hates you, know that . . ."

ggreg fills in:

It's your fault!

Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Telesphorus on August 02, 2013, 04:50:58 PM
I wonder what sort of management techniques could have kept Judas "on the team."
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Zeitun on August 02, 2013, 04:55:45 PM
This sermon http://youtu.be/4o6w8JODEGA by Fr. Pfeiffer is relevant.  He preaches that women who use their sexuality to control men are more wicked than men.  He clearly states that women that manipulate the men are more evil then the men that allow themselves to be controlled by the women.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Zeitun on August 02, 2013, 04:58:31 PM
Quote from: Telesphorus
Ever notice how the liberal never admits men are rejected for actually accepting the religion.  A woman rejects a man because he doesn't want to practice contraception, wants to follow traditional courtship, or commit to marriage, etc etc, but in ggreg's pathological BS-world, it's because of lack of empathy.


I know a man who was mocked by his family for choosing the true Faith over the NO product.

Gooch can convert his wife through prayer, fasting, holding fast to the Truth, and with charity.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Telesphorus on August 02, 2013, 05:05:11 PM
"He was controlling, so I had to leave him" - how many so-called trads will accept that excuse at face value from women - how many Catholic men see themselves blamed for their wives abandoning the religion and abandoning their responsibilities?

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say this justification of women's horrible behavior and their knowledge that interlopers will support them, even at their own church, for breaking up their families, is one of the major reasons for the high divorce rate, particularly for religious men.

Being a pious man means getting a kick in the teeth from the liberals in the congregation when the worst happens.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Lighthouse on August 02, 2013, 06:56:06 PM
Another side observation about ggreg's sidetracks: does ggreg really believe they use dead bodies for heart transplants?
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tarpeian on August 02, 2013, 07:42:08 PM
Quote from: parentsfortruth
Copyright 2006, Pope Paul VI Institute for the Study of Human Reproduction. All rights reserved.

Tarpeian, you're not going to make friends here linking crap like this.

Paul VI was a homosexual. Last thing people want to read is about a birth control method that's name is somehow attached to this disgraceful human being.


I can't control the name of the institute. I can vouch for the doctor and the method. Besides throwing the baby out with the bath water, knowing the scandal with Paul VI IMHO doesn't make sense. Although I would be the first in line to vote for a name change.

Pax,
Tarpeian
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Novus Weirdo on August 02, 2013, 07:44:20 PM
Quote from: ggreg
And that my friends is why 'the resistance' will never survive and thrive.  It is made up of perfectionists, pedants, prigs and purists who will never be able to reach a consensus on anything.  A house divided against itself and all that good stuff.


 :roll-laugh1:
Oh man, that's rich!  Did you write that yourself?  Also, what time is your puppet show?
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ServusSpiritusSancti on August 02, 2013, 07:49:55 PM
ggreg is a liberal, no doubt.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Zeitun on August 02, 2013, 07:52:15 PM
Does the Church rule by consensus?
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 02, 2013, 09:45:42 PM
Quote from: Zeitun
Quote from: Tiffany
Zeutin I'm not getting into a ___ contest with someone on the internet. It's a public board, if you want to repost my posts, you are free to. I try to reject feminism and try to especially encourage young women towards  traditional values when I interact with them.  

Again a person doesn't need to be married to recognize feminism.


Tiffany,

You've not been shy about posting details of your disordered life.  Perhaps you should take Our Lord's advice and not judge as the hypocrites do.  It's certainly not the womanly thing to do to accuse others of feminism without first examining your own conscience.

God bless!!!!  :cheers:
Attack me all you want. It's not judging "as the hypocrites do" to call our feminist thought.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 02, 2013, 10:05:20 PM
our=out
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 02, 2013, 10:09:28 PM
Quote from: Telesphorus
"He was controlling, so I had to leave him" - how many so-called trads will accept that excuse at face value from women - how many Catholic men see themselves blamed for their wives abandoning the religion and abandoning their responsibilities?

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say this justification of women's horrible behavior and their knowledge that interlopers will support them, even at their own church, for breaking up their families, is one of the major reasons for the high divorce rate, particularly for religious men.

Being a pious man means getting a kick in the teeth from the liberals in the congregation when the worst happens.




Quote from: Zeitun


Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up.  Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife.  Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control.  While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church.  You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.  
 


It's his fault for his heavy-handedness and not loving her.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on August 02, 2013, 10:26:24 PM
Quote from: ggreg
Gooch, according to the other thread you converted around two years ago or less.

So it's not like your wife married you with a full and frank understanding of what she was letting himself in for.  You weren't from a family of 9 kids with all of your brothers and sisters having 6 or more.

From her perspective you have moved the goalposts on her.  She was at least a decade into a marriage where she thought she could use contraception and all of a suddenly she is not only dealing with a convert's zeal (famous for causing these and other problems) but a bunch of other stuff like trousers, broccoli and inoculations.

Blimey man, can't you see what has happened here?

Turn the dial back a little.  Turn the volume down.  Let her slowly absorb the new you.

With that I wish you luck and I have deals to do.

yes I have moved the goal posts on her, not sure though are you advocating I give in to her? when you say turn the volume down I believe i am doing that, but unless I give in I don't see how else I can turn the dial back...as for trading in other issues for this one that won't fly, she's into the organic food, I don' force her to go to the mass every sunday..she understands the kids will never be vaccinated again...
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Novus Weirdo on August 02, 2013, 10:26:49 PM
Quote from: Tiffany
Quote from: Telesphorus
"He was controlling, so I had to leave him" - how many so-called trads will accept that excuse at face value from women - how many Catholic men see themselves blamed for their wives abandoning the religion and abandoning their responsibilities?

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say this justification of women's horrible behavior and their knowledge that interlopers will support them, even at their own church, for breaking up their families, is one of the major reasons for the high divorce rate, particularly for religious men.

Being a pious man means getting a kick in the teeth from the liberals in the congregation when the worst happens.


Quote from: Zeitun


Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up.  Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife.  Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control.  While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church.  You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.  
 


It's his fault for his heavy-handedness and not loving her.


How presumptuous.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 02, 2013, 10:35:17 PM
Quote from: Novus Weirdo
Quote from: Tiffany
Quote from: Telesphorus
"He was controlling, so I had to leave him" - how many so-called trads will accept that excuse at face value from women - how many Catholic men see themselves blamed for their wives abandoning the religion and abandoning their responsibilities?

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say this justification of women's horrible behavior and their knowledge that interlopers will support them, even at their own church, for breaking up their families, is one of the major reasons for the high divorce rate, particularly for religious men.

Being a pious man means getting a kick in the teeth from the liberals in the congregation when the worst happens.


Quote from: Zeitun


Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up.  Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife.  Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control.  While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church.  You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.  
 


It's his fault for his heavy-handedness and not loving her.


How presumptuous.



Go back a few pages and read the exchange between us.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on August 02, 2013, 10:44:28 PM
Quote from: Capt McQuigg
So, Gooch has a major moral dilemma in his family because he married a girl who is nonchalant and sees herself as the ultimate creator by using birth control.  That's where she is morally and it's a state of mortal sin.  

Gooch is stuck with this.  Gooch has screwed the pooch!  In a manner of speaking.    

So, what's Gooch to do now?  

I say follow the advice I gave earlier.  Sanctify himself with prayer, sacrifice, assisting at the Traditional Catholic Mass ONLY and bring his children with him.  Sanctify himself and then sanctify the children.  

It's a process and it may take months.  

Gooch will have to pray the Rosary daily with intentions for his wife and her conversion and for the children that they may embrace fully the Traditional Catholic faith.  

Gooch will need to refrain from all immoral practices, giving up all porn, lust, and even limit his intake of TV.  

Gooch will need to go to a Traditional Catholic priest for a General Confession.  This will take much prayer and meditation on Gooch's part and then he will have to have the courage to go into the confessional and spill the beans entirely.

Gooch will need to be patient with his wife but he will also have to spell it out for her that what she is doing is repulsive from a secular point of view but absolute death of the soul in the supernatural realm.  He will have to revisit this conversation several times.  If his wife divorces him over this, then she probably possesses a rancid soul.  

Gooch should also start to purchase plaster statues of Catholic saints, in particular Our Lady, have them blessed by a priest and then display them in prominent spots in the home.  Consecrate the home to the Sacred Heart.  

There should be a crucifix in every room (except the bathroom).  

Gooch has to take a stand and make a change.  Change is good if it's in the direction of embracing the Traditional Catholic faith.  

When a guy marries a girl who is openly using birth control, he probably has a lot of problems in addition to the wife.  So Gooch will have to single out these problems and conquer them one after the other.  

It's even possible that Gooch, by asking for advice on this forum, may not even be the intended beneficiary of this advice.  The blessings may be reserved for one of his children or one of his grandchildren.  

The blessing may even be for the child his wife gives birth to after she gets rid of that absolutely soul-killing and rancid practice of birth control.  

I wish Gooch all the luck in the world and may God bless him.


captain thanks for the advice, Gooch has already done most of the above, not as many crucifix's as I would like though, it's been a 1 year and a half since I conquered all my problems of lust, if she would agree not to have relations for the rest of our lives but be together as a family I would agree in a heartbeat, as it stands now she's not willing to do that, we were married into the fruitless novus order church, I'm paying for it now...but I don't believe divorce will result of this...God only knows
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on August 02, 2013, 10:48:51 PM
Quote from: John Grace
My advice is discuss with a priest.As for NFP, I am not married but very  much against NFP. It's not right.The providence of God will determine how many children a married couple have.The talk of charts and like is not of God.

I agree, I talked it over briefly with the priest in confession and he said  shouldn't have relations, as for nfp if I'm being totally honest my thinking is that God can't condemn me for giving in to the wife if she's practising nfp, as of now with the iud if I give in I believe I will be rightfully condemned by God
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on August 02, 2013, 10:57:24 PM
Quote from: Tiffany
Quote from: Telesphorus
"He was controlling, so I had to leave him" - how many so-called trads will accept that excuse at face value from women - how many Catholic men see themselves blamed for their wives abandoning the religion and abandoning their responsibilities?

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say this justification of women's horrible behavior and their knowledge that interlopers will support them, even at their own church, for breaking up their families, is one of the major reasons for the high divorce rate, particularly for religious men.

Being a pious man means getting a kick in the teeth from the liberals in the congregation when the worst happens.




Quote from: Zeitun


Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up.  Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife.  Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control.  While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church.  You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.  
 


It's his fault for his heavy-handedness and not loving her.

why do you say I don't love her? what exactly was my heavy handedness, which issue are yousaying I should have been more lenient? should I still be going to the novus order mass? would this be loving her more?
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 02, 2013, 11:24:01 PM
Quote from: gooch
Quote from: John Grace
My advice is discuss with a priest.As for NFP, I am not married but very  much against NFP. It's not right.The providence of God will determine how many children a married couple have.The talk of charts and like is not of God.

I agree, I talked it over briefly with the priest in confession and he said  shouldn't have relations, as for nfp if I'm being totally honest my thinking is that God can't condemn me for giving in to the wife if she's practising nfp, as of now with the iud if I give in I believe I will be rightfully condemned by God
Stay in touch with the priest and know that we are praying for your family.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 02, 2013, 11:29:19 PM
Quote from: gooch
Quote from: Tiffany
Quote from: Telesphorus
"He was controlling, so I had to leave him" - how many so-called trads will accept that excuse at face value from women - how many Catholic men see themselves blamed for their wives abandoning the religion and abandoning their responsibilities?

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say this justification of women's horrible behavior and their knowledge that interlopers will support them, even at their own church, for breaking up their families, is one of the major reasons for the high divorce rate, particularly for religious men.

Being a pious man means getting a kick in the teeth from the liberals in the congregation when the worst happens.




Quote from: Zeitun


Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up.  Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife.  Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control.  While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church.  You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.  
 


It's his fault for his heavy-handedness and not loving her.

why do you say I don't love her? what exactly was my heavy handedness, which issue are yousaying I should have been more lenient? should I still be going to the novus order mass? would this be loving her more?


I was calling out Zeitun's statement here where she is accusing the man.

I do not think you are heavy handed at all.

I think everyone should attend TLM!
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Hobbledehoy on August 02, 2013, 11:34:22 PM
Hello Gooch!

The only advice I can give you from experience is that prayer is ultimately the most efficient means whereby one may prevail against the obduracy of those whom we love: for it is not one who endeavors to change the other person but heavenly grace that liberates our loved ones' free volition from attachment to self and other temporary things. Such grace, however, it to be sought by prayer and penance.

Self-abandonment to the will of God, devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the earnest practice of the theological and moral virtues will enable you to be an exemplar whom your wife will acknowledge if only her free will is unburdened by self-attached and self-will. I would recommend you focus your energy on your children, praying for them, teaching them by word and deed, &c., so that your wife may awaken to the sublimity and profundity of the Catholic faith in all its luminosity. Perhaps if she sees how much your love the children and how you are all jealousy for their eternal welfare and the greater good of the household, maybe she too will remember that she does not belong to herself insofar as she is now a mother: a mother is never her own, and a married woman finds her freedom in maternity, and ultimately her salvation. This is as St. Thomas teaches when he comments on how St. Paul exhorts women to bear children: "Bear children, and not kill them secretly by abortion: yet she shall be saved through childbearing, if she continue in the faith [I Tim. v. 14]" ("Filios procreare, et non eos occulte occidere per abortum. Supra II, 15: salvabitur autem per filiorum generationem, si permanserit in fide," super I Tim. cap. v. lect. 2).

I especially recommend devotion to the Miraculous Infant Jesus of Prague. Please be assured of my prayers.


(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/Texts/MiraculousInfantJesusofPrague1_zpsc940adc7.jpg)

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/Texts/MiraculousInfantJesusofPrague2_zps3f133556.jpg)

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/Texts/MiraculousInfantJesusofPrague3_zpsa908033d.jpg)

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/Texts/MiraculousInfantJesusofPrague4_zps7b7a9c36.jpg)
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 02, 2013, 11:35:07 PM
Quote from: Tiffany
Quote from: ggreg
Quote from: Zeitun
 While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church.  You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.  

Your goal should be to convince her to use no contraception and the only way to do that is to remove her fear that you will force her to produce more babies.  She is nearing menopause anyway and her fertility is declining.


Good advice, though I question how he makes a convincing argument to the bit in red above.

If she removes the coil, biologically speaking the only way she can be sure and therefore have no fear is if they do not have sex until the menopause.

Otherwise he can lessen the fear, but he cannot remove it.  She might get pregnant again.







The Wind and the Sun were disputing which was the stronger. Suddenly they saw a traveller coming down the road, and the Sun said: "I see a way to decide our dispute. Whichever of us can cause that traveller to take off his cloak shall be regarded as the stronger. You begin." So the Sun retired behind a cloud, and the Wind began to blow as hard as it could upon the traveller. But the harder he blew the more closely did the traveller wrap his cloak round him, till at last the Wind had to give up in despair. Then the Sun came out and shone in all his glory upon the
traveller, who soon found it too hot to walk with his cloak on.
I agree I know women 46 - 48 that are still having babies.  :baby:



I try not to mind thumbs usually but who would give this a thumbs down?
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Novus Weirdo on August 02, 2013, 11:55:09 PM
Quote from: Tiffany
Quote from: Novus Weirdo
Quote from: Tiffany
Quote from: Telesphorus
"He was controlling, so I had to leave him" - how many so-called trads will accept that excuse at face value from women - how many Catholic men see themselves blamed for their wives abandoning the religion and abandoning their responsibilities?

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say this justification of women's horrible behavior and their knowledge that interlopers will support them, even at their own church, for breaking up their families, is one of the major reasons for the high divorce rate, particularly for religious men.

Being a pious man means getting a kick in the teeth from the liberals in the congregation when the worst happens.


Quote from: Zeitun


Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up.  Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife.  Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control.  While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church.  You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.  
 


It's his fault for his heavy-handedness and not loving her.


How presumptuous.



Go back a few pages and read the exchange between us.


I did do that and saw where you took a small portion of an earlier post and twisted it to fit your agenda.  You may think it was clever and that no one would catch it but TASS and Pravda were doing it before you were born.  No one cares what your agenda is, that is, IF you kept it to yourself.  But your feminist philosophy, your feminist need, to get out and subject the world to your oinks and belches that you think we want to hear (which we don't) under the guise of being 'strong' and 'having a voice' only leads people to confusion and to question what should be done as opposed to what you think should be done.  To be blunt, this was a man posting about a man's issue.  Why do you need to interject YOUR opinion?

You're an angry woman.  I can understand that since you've broadcast it in other posts.  Divorced, not annulled (strike one); admitted acquaintances with people of questionable moral substance (strike two); prone to completely non-Catholic feminist views (strike three)...  Yet you thought it would all be handy ammo when you got on this forum, thinking that by being worldly you would somehow know more than others who have been here a while and who are much more knowledgeable in terms of Catholic doctrine.  In other words, people who live it.  I cannot include myself in that but I can recognize what I am and what I'm not.  I don't think you can say the same.  Have you ever heard of TMI?  Anyone can go through your posts and see your life story, which is quite Protestant (did you ever lose that weight?  You posted about it a while ago.  Just checking...).  You've made yourself quite public and you expect the contents of your life to be sympathetic let alone Catholic?  Hilarious!

Again, your best option right now is to attain some self-awareness and leave marriage advice to people who are actually married.  Keep in mind that men are not always the problem and that the Virgin Mary did not wear a pink ribbon.



Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 03, 2013, 12:30:03 AM
Quote from: Novus Weirdo
Quote from: Tiffany
Quote from: Novus Weirdo
Quote from: Tiffany
Quote from: Telesphorus
"He was controlling, so I had to leave him" - how many so-called trads will accept that excuse at face value from women - how many Catholic men see themselves blamed for their wives abandoning the religion and abandoning their responsibilities?

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say this justification of women's horrible behavior and their knowledge that interlopers will support them, even at their own church, for breaking up their families, is one of the major reasons for the high divorce rate, particularly for religious men.

Being a pious man means getting a kick in the teeth from the liberals in the congregation when the worst happens.


Quote from: Zeitun


Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up.  Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife.  Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control.  While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church.  You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.  
 


It's his fault for his heavy-handedness and not loving her.


How presumptuous.



Go back a few pages and read the exchange between us.


I did do that and saw where you took a small portion of an earlier post and twisted it to fit your agenda.  You may think it was clever and that no one would catch it but TASS and Pravda were doing it before you were born.  No one cares what your agenda is, that is, IF you kept it to yourself.  But your feminist philosophy, your feminist need, to get out and subject the world to your oinks and belches that you think we want to hear (which we don't) under the guise of being 'strong' and 'having a voice' only leads people to confusion and to question what should be done as opposed to what you think should be done.  To be blunt, this was a man posting about a man's issue.  Why do you need to interject YOUR opinion?

You're an angry woman.  I can understand that since you've broadcast it in other posts.  Divorced, not annulled (strike one); admitted acquaintances with people of questionable moral substance (strike two); prone to completely non-Catholic feminist views (strike three)...  Yet you thought it would all be handy ammo when you got on this forum, thinking that by being worldly you would somehow know more than others who have been here a while and who are much more knowledgeable in terms of Catholic doctrine.  In other words, people who live it.  I cannot include myself in that but I can recognize what I am and what I'm not.  I don't think you can say the same.  Have you ever heard of TMI?  Anyone can go through your posts and see your life story, which is quite Protestant (did you ever lose that weight?  You posted about it a while ago.  Just checking...).  You've made yourself quite public and you expect the contents of your life to be sympathetic let alone Catholic?  Hilarious!

Again, your best option right now is to attain some self-awareness and leave marriage advice to people who are actually married.  Keep in mind that men are not always the problem and that the Virgin Mary did not wear a pink ribbon.





I've twisted nothing.

It's a public forum. If M or MD ban me then I can't post here. Until then if you don't want to hear what I or anyone else on hear has to say, put me on ignore or click on the red box with an X. Seriously, I'm not barging in on your family dinner, it's the internet. Some posters get under my skin, I put them ignore or X out. Sometimes there are just personality clashes even between good hearted people.

Civil divorce and Church annulment are different issues. It's due to this culture  with serial bigamy that we automatically associate divorce with obtaining Church annulments.

Where are these completely non-Catholic feminist posts of mine?
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 03, 2013, 12:36:31 AM
Quote from: Novus Weirdo
Yet you thought it would all be handy ammo when you got on this forum, thinking that by being worldly you would somehow know more than others who have been here a while and who are much more knowledgeable in terms of Catholic doctrine.



This is really nuts.

First of all, I searched out a trad forum, thinking other trads would be into natural remedies/midwives/not standard OB/GYN care, asking about a natural treatment for female problems that was recommended to me.

Secondly I've never thought of myself as worldly.

I think you should just put me on ignore.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 03, 2013, 12:37:40 AM
Quote from: Hobbledehoy
Hello Gooch!

The only advice I can give you from experience is that prayer is ultimately the most efficient means whereby one may prevail against the obduracy of those whom we love: for it is not one who endeavors to change the other person but heavenly grace that liberates our loved ones' free volition from attachment to self and other temporary things. Such grace, however, it to be sought by prayer and penance.

Self-abandonment to the will of God, devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the earnest practice of the theological and moral virtues will enable you to be an exemplar whom your wife will acknowledge if only her free will is unburdened by self-attached and self-will. I would recommend you focus your energy on your children, praying for them, teaching them by word and deed, &c., so that your wife may awaken to the sublimity and profundity of the Catholic faith in all its luminosity. Perhaps if she sees how much your love the children and how you are all jealousy for their eternal welfare and the greater good of the household, maybe she too will remember that she does not belong to herself insofar as she is now a mother: a mother is never her own, and a married woman finds her freedom in maternity, and ultimately her salvation. This is as St. Thomas teaches when he comments on how St. Paul exhorts women to bear children: "Bear children, and not kill them secretly by abortion: yet she shall be saved through childbearing, if she continue in the faith [I Tim. v. 14]" ("Filios procreare, et non eos occulte occidere per abortum. Supra II, 15: salvabitur autem per filiorum generationem, si permanserit in fide," super I Tim. cap. v. lect. 2).

I especially recommend devotion to the Miraculous Infant Jesus of Prague. Please be assured of my prayers.


(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/Texts/MiraculousInfantJesusofPrague1_zpsc940adc7.jpg)

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/Texts/MiraculousInfantJesusofPrague2_zps3f133556.jpg)

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/Texts/MiraculousInfantJesusofPrague3_zpsa908033d.jpg)

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/Texts/MiraculousInfantJesusofPrague4_zps7b7a9c36.jpg)


Glad you are back! :)
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Telesphorus on August 03, 2013, 01:56:52 AM
Quote from: gooch
Quote from: Tiffany
Quote from: Telesphorus
"He was controlling, so I had to leave him" - how many so-called trads will accept that excuse at face value from women - how many Catholic men see themselves blamed for their wives abandoning the religion and abandoning their responsibilities?

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say this justification of women's horrible behavior and their knowledge that interlopers will support them, even at their own church, for breaking up their families, is one of the major reasons for the high divorce rate, particularly for religious men.

Being a pious man means getting a kick in the teeth from the liberals in the congregation when the worst happens.




Quote from: Zeitun


Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up.  Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife.  Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control.  While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church.  You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.  
 


It's his fault for his heavy-handedness and not loving her.

why do you say I don't love her? what exactly was my heavy handedness, which issue are yousaying I should have been more lenient? should I still be going to the novus order mass? would this be loving her more?


She was being SARCASTIC.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 03, 2013, 03:20:15 AM
Quote from: gooch
Quote from: ggreg
Gooch, according to the other thread you converted around two years ago or less.

So it's not like your wife married you with a full and frank understanding of what she was letting himself in for.  You weren't from a family of 9 kids with all of your brothers and sisters having 6 or more.

From her perspective you have moved the goalposts on her.  She was at least a decade into a marriage where she thought she could use contraception and all of a suddenly she is not only dealing with a convert's zeal (famous for causing these and other problems) but a bunch of other stuff like trousers, broccoli and inoculations.

Blimey man, can't you see what has happened here?

Turn the dial back a little.  Turn the volume down.  Let her slowly absorb the new you.

With that I wish you luck and I have deals to do.

yes I have moved the goal posts on her, not sure though are you advocating I give in to her? when you say turn the volume down I believe i am doing that, but unless I give in I don't see how else I can turn the dial back...as for trading in other issues for this one that won't fly, she's into the organic food, I don' force her to go to the mass every sunday..she understands the kids will never be vaccinated again...


You said she felt you had railroaded her on a lot of other issues which she had given in on.

Turn the volume down means saying you are willing to consider with an open heart ALL of the issues that don't involve mortally sinful immediate grave matter for the one that does, the one that WILL destroy your marriage.  The issue that no Traditionalist Catholic and many a novus Ordo Catholic would or could tolerate.

Basically you have to shock and surprise her and make her reconsider you as a husband.  Right now she is thinking through the pros and cons of divorce.  What does that tell you about her state of mind?

Without breaking down the walls of her personal Alamo she is not going to back down.  You are otherwise at an impasse.  In my view and experience, 18 months without sexual intercourse with your wife over an issue like this is a HUGE problem.  In effect you past a sign on the road saying "slow down dangerous cliffs ahead" and you have ignored it.

And let's face it, your methods have not worked or you would not be here seeking advice.  The definition of stupid is carrying on doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

Want the harsh truth?  Your wife is either cheating on you or masturbating and thinking about other men.  You've allowed that to happen with the enforced abstinence.

You are closer to the cliff edge than you think.  If you stand on principal now, you will fall down that cliff and as a man in America, Australia or Britain today the courts are basically going to chew you up and spit you out.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on August 03, 2013, 06:13:00 AM
Quote from: ggreg
Quote from: gooch
Quote from: ggreg
Gooch, according to the other thread you converted around two years ago or less.

So it's not like your wife married you with a full and frank understanding of what she was letting himself in for.  You weren't from a family of 9 kids with all of your brothers and sisters having 6 or more.

From her perspective you have moved the goalposts on her.  She was at least a decade into a marriage where she thought she could use contraception and all of a suddenly she is not only dealing with a convert's zeal (famous for causing these and other problems) but a bunch of other stuff like trousers, broccoli and inoculations.

Blimey man, can't you see what has happened here?

Turn the dial back a little.  Turn the volume down.  Let her slowly absorb the new you.

With that I wish you luck and I have deals to do.

yes I have moved the goal posts on her, not sure though are you advocating I give in to her? when you say turn the volume down I believe i am doing that, but unless I give in I don't see how else I can turn the dial back...as for trading in other issues for this one that won't fly, she's into the organic food, I don' force her to go to the mass every sunday..she understands the kids will never be vaccinated again...


You said she felt you had railroaded her on a lot of other issues which she had given in on.

Turn the volume down means saying you are willing to consider with an open heart ALL of the issues that don't involve mortally sinful immediate grave matter for the one that does, the one that WILL destroy your marriage.  The issue that no Traditionalist Catholic and many a novus Ordo Catholic would or could tolerate.

Basically you have to shock and surprise her and make her reconsider you as a husband.  Right now she is thinking through the pros and cons of divorce.  What does that tell you about her state of mind?

Without breaking down the walls of her personal Alamo she is not going to back down.  You are otherwise at an impasse.  In my view and experience, 18 months without sexual intercourse with your wife over an issue like this is a HUGE problem.  In effect you past a sign on the road saying "slow down dangerous cliffs ahead" and you have ignored it.

And let's face it, your methods have not worked or you would not be here seeking advice.  The definition of stupid is carrying on doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

Want the harsh truth?  Your wife is either cheating on you or masturbating and thinking about other men.  You've allowed that to happen with the enforced abstinence.

You are closer to the cliff edge than you think.  If you stand on principal now, you will fall down that cliff and as a man in America, Australia or Britain today the courts are basically going to chew you up and spit you out.

so you are in effect saying I should give in, correct? and no she's not cheating on me lol...how have I ignored it if I'm telling her about natural methods, if she accepts an alternative to contraception  then we have a resolution...most modern women of today would have left me by now, the truth is she realizes she can't live without me,
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 03, 2013, 06:20:08 AM
 Ggreg is a liberal and likes to devalue those who follow Catholic teaching.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 03, 2013, 06:26:23 AM
Yes, I am saying handle her differently to the way you have been.  Because the way you have been handling her lead to her essentially not trusting in you to provide the emotional support for a fourth child.  Let's face it, with the spacing you had, she was only going to have 1 more anyway, worst case 2 before the menopause.

Why did she get the IUD fitted?  Deep down what were HER reasons.

Moreover, I doubt you are as in tune with what she is doing and thinking as you'd like to think, or you would not be in this pickle in the first place.  Women are famous for being two faced and cold about these things.  They can compartmentalise very well and then switch from night to day.  So she might not be cheating with a flesh and blood person but do you really think she has gone without any relief for the last 18 months?  You are a 40 year old guy and know how the world turns.

Why would she?  She has an IUD she is hardly going to worry about masturbation and you are not with her 24x7.

And finally Gooch, if she's not going to leave you then why post in the first place?  Stop kidding yourself.  When a woman throws the word divorce around it means she's thought about it.

Best of luck, I have a weekend of stuff to do.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 03, 2013, 06:29:53 AM
Quote from: ggreg
Yes, I am saying handle her differently to the way you have been.  Because the way you have been handling her lead to her essentially not trusting in you to provide the emotional support for a fourth child.  Let's face it, with the spacing you had, she was only going to have 1 more anyway, worst case 2 before the menopause.

Why did she get the IUD fitted?  

Moreover, I doubt you are as in tune with what she is doing and thinking as you'd like to think, or you would not be in this pickle in the first place.  Women are famous for being two faced and cold about these things.  They can compartmentalise very well and then switch from night to day.  So she might not be cheating with a flesh and blood person but do you really think she has gone without any relief for the last 18 months?  You are a 40 year old guy and know how the world turns.

Why would she?  She has an IUD she is hardly going to worry about masturbation and you are not with her 24x7.

And finally Gooch, if she's not going to leave you then why post in the first place?  Stop kidding yourself.  When a woman throws the word divorce around it means she's thought about it.

Best of luck, I have a weekend of stuff to do.
 Ggreg you are worse than crazy women  trying to meddle and put thoughts into someone's head.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 03, 2013, 06:33:02 AM

It happened that a Fox caught its tail in a trap, and in struggling to release himself lost all of it but the stump. At first he was ashamed to show himself among his fellow foxes. But at last he determined to put a bolder face upon his misfortune, and summoned all the foxes to a general meeting to consider a proposal which he had to place before them. When they had assembled together the Fox proposed that they should all do away with their tails. He pointed out how inconvenient a tail was when
they were pursued by their enemies, the dogs; how much it was in the way when they desired to sit down and hold a friendly conversation with one another. He failed to see any advantage in carrying about such a useless encumbrance.

"That is all very well," said one of the older foxes; "but I do not think you would have recommended us to dispense with our chief ornament if you had not happened to lose it yourself." :wink:
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on August 03, 2013, 12:03:25 PM
Quote from: ggreg
Yes, I am saying handle her differently to the way you have been.  Because the way you have been handling her lead to her essentially not trusting in you to provide the emotional support for a fourth child.  Let's face it, with the spacing you had, she was only going to have 1 more anyway, worst case 2 before the menopause.

Why did she get the IUD fitted?  Deep down what were HER reasons.

Moreover, I doubt you are as in tune with what she is doing and thinking as you'd like to think, or you would not be in this pickle in the first place.  Women are famous for being two faced and cold about these things.  They can compartmentalise very well and then switch from night to day.  So she might not be cheating with a flesh and blood person but do you really think she has gone without any relief for the last 18 months?  You are a 40 year old guy and know how the world turns.

Why would she?  She has an IUD she is hardly going to worry about masturbation and you are not with her 24x7.

And finally Gooch, if she's not going to leave you then why post in the first place?  Stop kidding yourself.  When a woman throws the word divorce around it means she's thought about it.

Best of luck, I have a weekend of stuff to do.


it has nothing to do with the emotional support for a 4th child, she's feeling run down and tired, but if I do give in then for sure I save my marriage, but at what cost..my soul? as for her not leaving this is what I feel, she's threatened but I don't think she'll pull the trigger, but if I do nothing she will continue to be miserable which I don't want, this is the pickle I'm in
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Capt McQuigg on August 03, 2013, 02:21:41 PM
Gregg is just giving Gooch a hard time now and confusing him.  
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Matto on August 03, 2013, 04:09:55 PM
Quote from: gooch
but if I do give in then for sure I save my marriage, but at what cost..my soul?
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: TCat on August 05, 2013, 02:21:00 PM
I don't have experience of this topic BUT this entire conversation is proof that devout Catholics ought only to marry other devout Catholics, otherwise the inevietable problems happen, especially with one side trying to maintain their Catholic identity regarding conjugical relations, something Catholics are very strict on for our own good. The modern world corrupts people with the notions of his wife, just shows that faith needs to be rock solid in both. If she would not convert I would not bother with her if that was me.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Ursus on August 07, 2013, 11:41:48 PM
Quote from: gooch
Quote from: ggreg


Why would she?  She has an IUD she is hardly going to worry about masturbation and you are not with her 24x7.

And finally Gooch, if she's not going to leave you then why post in the first place?  Stop kidding yourself.  When a woman throws the word divorce around it means she's thought about it.

Best of luck, I have a weekend of stuff to do.


it has nothing to do with the emotional support for a 4th child, she's feeling run down and tired, but if I do give in then for sure I save my marriage, but at what cost..my soul? as for her not leaving this is what I feel, she's threatened but I don't think she'll pull the trigger, but if I do nothing she will continue to be miserable which I don't want, this is the pickle I'm in


I do think this is a good topic and a personal trouble that we can all hopefully learn from.

If your wife was sick, would you leave her? Of course not. It's a similar situation with a crisis of faith.

Listen to her, love her, encourage to undo the problem BUT don't be forceful and overbearing. You don't want her to pull back more. Yes, what she's doing is wrong.

Your soul is not in danger if you're intimate with her so get that out of your head.

Don't push her away or deny her affection. Fulfill your role as a husband in all respects.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Christopher67 on August 07, 2013, 11:54:13 PM
Was her intention the same on your wedding day?
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: parentsfortruth on August 08, 2013, 10:59:07 PM
Quote from: Ursus
Quote from: gooch
Quote from: ggreg


Why would she?  She has an IUD she is hardly going to worry about masturbation and you are not with her 24x7.

And finally Gooch, if she's not going to leave you then why post in the first place?  Stop kidding yourself.  When a woman throws the word divorce around it means she's thought about it.

Best of luck, I have a weekend of stuff to do.


it has nothing to do with the emotional support for a 4th child, she's feeling run down and tired, but if I do give in then for sure I save my marriage, but at what cost..my soul? as for her not leaving this is what I feel, she's threatened but I don't think she'll pull the trigger, but if I do nothing she will continue to be miserable which I don't want, this is the pickle I'm in


I do think this is a good topic and a personal trouble that we can all hopefully learn from.

If your wife was sick, would you leave her? Of course not. It's a similar situation with a crisis of faith.

Listen to her, love her, encourage to undo the problem BUT don't be forceful and overbearing. You don't want her to pull back more. Yes, what she's doing is wrong.

Your soul is not in danger if you're intimate with her so get that out of your head.

Don't push her away or deny her affection. Fulfill your role as a husband in all respects.


You know what an IUD does? It can kill a baby. He's doing the right thing not sleeping with her right now. If a baby does try to implant, she's murdering a child if it doesn't.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Raphaela on August 09, 2013, 05:21:41 AM
Quote from: gooch
found this, although I don't put too much stock in it
http://churchmilitant.tumblr.com/sexquestions

4 - Are both spouses guilty of a mortal sin if one chooses to use a contraceptive against the others will?

No. If a man decides to have a vasectomy against his wife’s will, she may still have sex with him and not be guilty. Likewise, if a woman is taking birth control pills against a husband’s wished, he may still have sex with her and remain guilt free.

Pius XI teaches the same thing in Casti Connubii:

"59. Holy Church knows well that not infrequently one of the parties is sinned against rather than sinning, when for a grave cause he or she reluctantly allows the perversion of the right order. In such a case, there is no sin, provided that, mindful of the law of charity, he or she does not neglect to seek to dissuade and to deter the partner from sin."

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_31121930_casti-connubii_en.html

Notice an effort to correct the spouse must be made, even if it doesn't succeed. If there is no practical change, keep praying that she has a change of heart. There's nothing more you can do. But there's no obligation to abstain.

 If your conscience still troubles you, talk to a priest for reassurance (don't go near a Novus Ordo priest, and find an absolutely traditional one who teaches that NFP can only be used for a grave reason). He will tell you the same as Pius XI, but it often helps to have a priest's personal assurance that you are doing nothing wrong, and he may pray for your wife as well. Have a Mass said for your intention (that your wife stops using this method).  
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Telesphorus on August 09, 2013, 05:25:54 AM
What if a man knew his wife would have an abortion if she got pregnant by him?

While it's certainly true one does not sin in paying the marriage debt to a sinning spouse, it is casuistry that ignores some pretty serious moral issues to simply say "no sin" regardless of the circumstances.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: parentsfortruth on August 09, 2013, 11:38:22 AM
Quote from: Raphaela
Quote from: gooch
found this, although I don't put too much stock in it
http://churchmilitant.tumblr.com/sexquestions

4 - Are both spouses guilty of a mortal sin if one chooses to use a contraceptive against the others will?

No. If a man decides to have a vasectomy against his wife’s will, she may still have sex with him and not be guilty. Likewise, if a woman is taking birth control pills against a husband’s wished, he may still have sex with her and remain guilt free.

Pius XI teaches the same thing in Casti Connubii:

"59. Holy Church knows well that not infrequently one of the parties is sinned against rather than sinning, when for a grave cause he or she reluctantly allows the perversion of the right order. In such a case, there is no sin, provided that, mindful of the law of charity, he or she does not neglect to seek to dissuade and to deter the partner from sin."

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_31121930_casti-connubii_en.html

Notice an effort to correct the spouse must be made, even if it doesn't succeed. If there is no practical change, keep praying that she has a change of heart. There's nothing more you can do. But there's no obligation to abstain.

 If your conscience still troubles you, talk to a priest for reassurance (don't go near a Novus Ordo priest, and find an absolutely traditional one who teaches that NFP can only be used for a grave reason). He will tell you the same as Pius XI, but it often helps to have a priest's personal assurance that you are doing nothing wrong, and he may pray for your wife as well. Have a Mass said for your intention (that your wife stops using this method).  


Was the IUD out when Pius XI was pope? Only the pill was, methinks. The pill simply stops ovulation. The IUD murders an embryo (with an immortal soul) that cannot attach to the mother's womb because of the device.

They weren't even widely used until the 1950s because of the problems associated with them, infections, et cetera. No one in their right minds were using them, and certainly no doctor would have given the recommendation to use them at that time.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 09, 2013, 12:11:56 PM
Some homonal BC pills are abortifacient also.

Hormonal contraception ascribes a three-fold action to these agents.  1. inhibition of ovulation, 2. inhibition of sperm transport, and 3. production of a ‘hostile endometrium’, which prevents or disrupts implantation of the developing baby if the first two mechanisms fail.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: parentsfortruth on August 09, 2013, 03:06:59 PM
Quote from: ggreg
Some homonal BC pills are abortifacient also.

Hormonal contraception ascribes a three-fold action to these agents.  1. inhibition of ovulation, 2. inhibition of sperm transport, and 3. production of a ‘hostile endometrium’, which prevents or disrupts implantation of the developing baby if the first two mechanisms fail.


I doubt any traditional priest would advise, knowing what an IUD does, to continue having relations with a wife if she's that self loathing of herself to do that.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Capt McQuigg on August 09, 2013, 05:50:35 PM
If the wife continues to use an IUD, the husband may be forced to live separately.  A separation would be for his spiritual welfare.  A wife who is anti-life, or pro-death, is to be shunned.  

It's not permitted to divorce and remarry but separation is perfectly acceptable.  

If this isn't feasible, then the husband should sleep in a separate bedroom and avoid his wife as much as possible.  

I don't want to say that there are times when a man needs to cut his losses because these are issues a man has to work out to his own satisfaction befoer he even asks a lady to marry him.



Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: parentsfortruth on August 09, 2013, 06:18:18 PM
Quote from: Capt McQuigg
If the wife continues to use an IUD, the husband may be forced to live separately.  A separation would be for his spiritual welfare.  A wife who is anti-life, or pro-death, is to be shunned.  

It's not permitted to divorce and remarry but separation is perfectly acceptable.  

If this isn't feasible, then the husband should sleep in a separate bedroom and avoid his wife as much as possible.  

I don't want to say that there are times when a man needs to cut his losses because these are issues a man has to work out to his own satisfaction befoer he even asks a lady to marry him.





Capt. Remember, he's a recent convert, so go easy on his choice.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 09, 2013, 06:40:59 PM
Quote from: Capt McQuigg
If the wife continues to use an IUD, the husband may be forced to live separately.  A separation would be for his spiritual welfare.  A wife who is anti-life, or pro-death, is to be shunned.  

It's not permitted to divorce and remarry but separation is perfectly acceptable.  

If this isn't feasible, then the husband should sleep in a separate bedroom and avoid his wife as much as possible.  

I don't want to say that there are times when a man needs to cut his losses because these are issues a man has to work out to his own satisfaction befoer he even asks a lady to marry him.



In general if you seperate you may need a civil divorce to protect your right to your children. Unfortunately we don't live in a Christian society that respects the family.

For those criticizing his choice remember people can be influenced by evil and change.  A major problem is her family and this culture. I guarantee if it was her and gooch without comm with family and media things would be different.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Ursus on August 09, 2013, 09:49:22 PM
Quote from: parentsfortruth


I doubt any traditional priest would advise, knowing what an IUD does, to continue having relations with a wife if she's that self loathing of herself to do that.


I got down voted before, but trust St Paul and the good Bishop on this. The unbeliving wife is sanctified by the believing husband.

Crisis of faith, same thing. His story here is about an atheist who ended up becoming a priest after his wife died, 19:00 mark here:

ArchBishop Sheen Marriage and Incompatibility (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtMKPaG7vVA&sns=em)
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 09, 2013, 10:10:47 PM
Quote from: Ursus
Quote from: parentsfortruth


I doubt any traditional priest would advise, knowing what an IUD does, to continue having relations with a wife if she's that self loathing of herself to do that.


I got down voted before, but trust St Paul and the good Bishop on this. The unbeliving wife is sanctified by the believing husband.

Crisis of faith, same thing. His story here is about an atheist who ended up becoming a priest after his wife died, 19:00 mark here:

ArchBishop Sheen Marriage and Incompatibility (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtMKPaG7vVA&sns=em)
That doesn't mean we do immoral things with them.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Christopher67 on August 09, 2013, 10:47:59 PM
I got 2 thumbs down for my comment.....Idiots.....If either party goes into marriage not wanting to pro-create, the marriage is invalid.....Stupid!
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on August 10, 2013, 02:01:43 AM
She did procreate. She had 3 children. It is not helpful at this stage to speculate on whether she had a long term plan.  The OP considers himself married and three children need a mother and father.  Retroactive speculation does not help.

It is more likely his wife is tired and feels incapable of having more children.

 60 years ago nobody would have obtained an annulment if their wife got herself sterilised at 40 after 3 children.  Now they are handed out like confetti and idiots like you whisper into the ears of men who should be trying to save their marriages, not run away like cowards.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: parentsfortruth on August 10, 2013, 02:50:23 AM
Quote from: ggreg
She did procreate. She had 3 children. It is not helpful at this stage to speculate on whether she had a long term plan.  The OP considers himself married and three children need a mother and father.  Retroactive speculation does not help.

It is more likely his wife is tired and feels incapable of having more children.

 60 years ago nobody would have obtained an annulment if their wife got herself sterilised at 40 after 3 children.  Now they are handed out like confetti and idiots like you whisper into the ears of men who should be trying to save their marriages, not run away like cowards.


You can't even listen to yourself. Someday you might come by this board years from now and read what you're saying and see how utterly ridiculous you sound. SHE PROCREATED ON HER OWN TERMS. Now she's choosing to leave God out of the equation completely.

And yes, she "feels" incapable, but with some prayers from her husband, she can regain that confidence. To just say "DERP OH WELL, SHE IS JUST GOING TO POTENTIALLY KILL OUR NEXT ONE! FIRE AWAY!" No, that is not the Catholic way to handle this situation.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 10, 2013, 05:44:28 AM
Ggreg is right, with one or none they might look at that, not with three. It doesn't matter anyway, he is not trying to divorce and request an annulment.  
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on August 10, 2013, 06:05:02 AM
Quote from: parentsfortruth
Quote from: ggreg
She did procreate. She had 3 children. It is not helpful at this stage to speculate on whether she had a long term plan.  The OP considers himself married and three children need a mother and father.  Retroactive speculation does not help.

It is more likely his wife is tired and feels incapable of having more children.

 60 years ago nobody would have obtained an annulment if their wife got herself sterilised at 40 after 3 children.  Now they are handed out like confetti and idiots like you whisper into the ears of men who should be trying to save their marriages, not run away like cowards.


You can't even listen to yourself. Someday you might come by this board years from now and read what you're saying and see how utterly ridiculous you sound. SHE PROCREATED ON HER OWN TERMS. Now she's choosing to leave God out of the equation completely.

And yes, she "feels" incapable, but with some prayers from her husband, she can regain that confidence. To just say "DERP OH WELL, SHE IS JUST GOING TO POTENTIALLY KILL OUR NEXT ONE! FIRE AWAY!" No, that is not the Catholic way to handle this situation.


PFT He wasn't justifying her not having more children. Many women do make decisions based on how they feel and it's not just with having children. Gooch has already mentioned her fatigue. Acknowledging what is behind her desire to use contraception isn't saying it's the Catholic way. It's not wrong to understand and try to help someone with whatever they feel while continuing to communicate Church teaching.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on September 03, 2013, 09:20:00 PM
Quote from: Zeitun
gooch,

Please read the testimony of Gloria Polo (she has received the permission of her bishop to share her story) who was struck by lightening and died after receiving third degree burns to her internal organs including ovaries, uterus, and breasts BECAUSE SHE WAS USING AN IUD.

http://www.gloria.polo.ortiz.in/

Hey I wanted to thank you for this link, I read it, and tried to get the wife to read it, she finally read a few pages and she seems to at least change her tune somewhat, she talked to songbird about nfp and while she's not convinced it will work she hinted to trying it and mentioned abstinence...better than hearing about  divorce.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Zeitun on September 04, 2013, 09:04:13 AM
Quote from: gooch
Quote from: Zeitun
gooch,

Please read the testimony of Gloria Polo (she has received the permission of her bishop to share her story) who was struck by lightening and died after receiving third degree burns to her internal organs including ovaries, uterus, and breasts BECAUSE SHE WAS USING AN IUD.

http://www.gloria.polo.ortiz.in/

Hey I wanted to thank you for this link, I read it, and tried to get the wife to read it, she finally read a few pages and she seems to at least change her tune somewhat, she talked to songbird about nfp and while she's not convinced it will work she hinted to trying it and mentioned abstinence...better than hearing about  divorce.


Deo gratias!  Wonderful news.  Keep praying that Our Lord will soften her heart on this issue.

Take care.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Julie10 on September 04, 2013, 10:52:57 AM
I don't have much advice to give but I will pray for you. I don't know you as I have not been on this bored long but I know about having babies.

The thing with babies and women is that NO MAN will ever understand what having a baby does to a women. I got so sick in my pregnancy that I got to point where I cried out and I could not imagine purgatory being worse. I actually developed an allergy to my baby and had burning welts all over my body. The only thing that kept me sane was knowing it would only be 9 months of h*** and not a lifetime. Plus after the baby comes you literally don't sleep for a year and your hormones are all screwed and it is hard. No man will ever understand. I have an amazing supportive husband and he still has no clue. So the best thing you can do is show empathy for the vocation she has and all she does already and try to help out more. Ask her what scares her about more children and ask her what she needs from you to get over the fear. She says she is scared of getting sick and tell her if she does you will take care of her or hire help to care for the children. She probably is feeling alone.  Being a mom can be lonely in a way that when a women becomes a mom 99% of her life changes but for a man only like 10% so he will never understand how demanding motherhood is.  Don't blame her or lecture her about God. Just say you understand why she wouldn't want more because it is hard but she is a great mom and wife and her babies are so lucky to have her. Tell her you can't stand the thought of not being with her in heaven and you will do whatever it takes to help her get there .  I have tons of friends and the main reason they don't want more kids is because they don't get help and feel alone and sleep (sleep is the biggy.....offer to watch the kids so she can nap at least once a weekend). Start with the little things and it might help to move the big things.


Call home from work to see if she needs help or you to pick up anything. Come home early and tell her you will watch the kids for an hour so she can have a break, Etc.
You get more with honey than vinegar with women so show EMPATHY and be there. Work on being a supportive husband and make sure you tell her you love her and appreciate her. So many men have problems with words but it is worth it. Ask her to pray with you about it.

Most importantly LOVE her and make sure she knows it. Don't give up.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Capt McQuigg on September 04, 2013, 11:52:35 AM
Julie,

The woman in the example from your post doesn't need a husband, she needs a padded room and a custodian to keep an eye on her 24/7.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Capt McQuigg on September 04, 2013, 11:53:43 AM
Gooch,

You're in a bad marriage if your wife refuses to put it all in God's Hands.

I can post an excellent prayer that you could recite DAILY for her betterment and yours too!  

Let me know if you want me post it and I will.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Nadir on September 04, 2013, 11:05:07 PM
Julie, you make motherhood sound like a disease. Some of us have followed Gooch's struggles and know that he loves her and she knows it too.

Does no man understand what it is to suffer? I think this is absolutely wrong.

This is completely off topic, but I am reading the story of a young man of 19 who became a quadriplegic. The whole aim of his life was to go back to farming and as a result of much suffering and amazing persistence he did. Wonderful story!

We too need persistence, in prayer especially.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: ggreg on September 05, 2013, 02:44:28 AM
Quote from: Julie10

Call home from work to see if she needs help or you to pick up anything. Come home early and tell her you will watch the kids for an hour so she can have a break, Etc.
You get more with honey than vinegar with women so show EMPATHY and be there. Work on being a supportive husband and make sure you tell her you love her and appreciate her. So many men have problems with words but it is worth it. Ask her to pray with you about it.

Most importantly LOVE her and make sure she knows it. Don't give up.


For a person who didn't have much advice to give, this was very good advice and matches with my experience.  My wife is Russian and large families there are extremely rare, not least because life is very hard, apartments are all small, less than 800 sqft.  3 children is like, "wow, big family". 1 or 2 is the norm.

Society is very patriarchal and 97% of Russian women have to do ALL of the cooking, cleaning, child rearing and often work as well because the husband does not make enough money. Women are typically very stoic and hard working there.  Men tend to be spoilt and behave like children well into their 20s, not unlike Egyptian or Saudi men.  Since women outnumber men, men have more options if they get divorced.

There are only three groups of people who break this rule.  Coming from a large family myself I am very observant and interested and I obviously deal with the reaction of Russians finding out we have 6 children and are not planning on stopping.

New Russians and the emerging middle classes who can afford to hire domestic help.  Commonly better off Russians will have larger families.

Religious families who live in the deep countryside and have large houses.  I.e. where the husband and wife are devoutly Orthodox and both attend Church and are knowledgeable about the Orthodox faith.  Lots of Church attending Russians are ignorant of even the basics and treat religion and icons like a lucky horseshoe to be kissed to bring them "luck" in love, health or finances.

The third and final class are women married to husbands who are supportive.  A few men there somehow break the chain and chip in with domestic duties, washing up, vacumning the home, taking the children to school or park, (Russians don't have gardens so parks are a daily feature) ironing, hanging out the washing, carrying a small baby when it is crying rather than leaving that, to the women). When my wife's friends visit and stay with us they always congratulate her on finding me because I basically pull my weight and they have never seen it in Russian society.

Russian men can be very romantic and chivalrous.  They will open car doors when a woman gets in or out of a car, never allow a woman to pay for a meal, never forget to buy flowers on a birthday or women's day and will even meet their wife with flowers are the airport when she returns from somewhere.  But watch a married man in his 30s change a diaper out there or play with a child and you will laugh.  They are like those characters in the movie, 3 men and a baby, the difference being that they are married fathers, not single childless men.

It might be a bit late for Gooch to do much about it, because his wife is 40 and her experiences are probably hard coded, but for a lot of men just starting out on married life, selling that Xbox on eBay and investing 30 mins a day into doing the washing up, cleaning the kitchen floor, sewing badges on their scouting uniforms, cleaning windows, taking out the trash (before you are asked), cleaning the toilet bowls in the house, doing a laundry load will result in two things.

1.  Your wife won't feel under pressure and worn out to the same extent.  So when she is low the temptation to think she can solve it by not having more children won't be as strong.

2.  Her female friends will make comments and compare you to their husbands who don't do as much, so she will understand that with that extra support a larger family is not going to drive her into an early grave.

I know a complete secular couple who got married at the same time as us.  The husband was a British man in his mid 30s who did not want any children and had done well in his career, a climber. The wife was a Slovakian auPair who had come from poverty and wanted a man who could provide.  He had the personality of a carrot, what most people would term a "real stiff". Jana was I believe his first proper girlfriend.

For the first year or two he steadfastly refused to have children and Jana used to cry on my wife's shoulder and ask her advice as to how to win him around.  Eventually she stopped taking the pill and got pregnant, though at the time she insisted that 2 was her absolute maximum and after that she would stop. He was mad about it at first but when the baby came he completely changed and flipped to the other extreme and became some sort of super Dad character. Last time I saw him, in 2002, he was spending Saturday making a beautiful job laying out stone tiles on their kitchen floor.  He applied the same focus to being a father and a husband as to his career basically.

Now they have four children.  Still both completely secular.  They just like kids.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Tiffany on September 05, 2013, 06:27:33 AM
Well done Zeitun & Songbird!  :applause:
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: inprincipio on September 05, 2013, 07:58:18 AM
What does the real Catholic Church teach about the primary end of marriage?  That is the question.

Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: Telesphorus on September 05, 2013, 02:17:48 PM
The posts about gooch and his family are another case where the blowhard vituperates against a Catholic man in a difficult position, blaming him for his situation, and making generally disparaging remarks about traditionalists.

Remember, this is all coming from someone who says things that indicate he is not a believing Catholic.
Title: wife rejects natural family planning
Post by: songbird on September 07, 2013, 11:06:43 PM
When a woman is unsatisfied being a mother and works outside the home, it is possible for to much talk and some can be bad company.  Women have a divine calling to be mothers, and yet the home is degraded and this is the work of the devil.  He wants the mother to leave the home for work.  Now, we are living in hard times and the gov't wants mothers out of the home for the same reason.  If a mother must work outside the home, she should be unhappy to work and want to be at home being mother. If she is unhappy in the home, again it is the devil working on her. Gooch, what do you think?