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Offline Tiffany

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wife rejects natural family planning
« Reply #150 on: August 02, 2013, 11:29:19 PM »
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  • Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: Tiffany
    Quote from: Telesphorus
    "He was controlling, so I had to leave him" - how many so-called trads will accept that excuse at face value from women - how many Catholic men see themselves blamed for their wives abandoning the religion and abandoning their responsibilities?

    I don't think it's an exaggeration to say this justification of women's horrible behavior and their knowledge that interlopers will support them, even at their own church, for breaking up their families, is one of the major reasons for the high divorce rate, particularly for religious men.

    Being a pious man means getting a kick in the teeth from the liberals in the congregation when the worst happens.




    Quote from: Zeitun


    Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up.  Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife.  Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control.  While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church.  You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.  
     


    It's his fault for his heavy-handedness and not loving her.

    why do you say I don't love her? what exactly was my heavy handedness, which issue are yousaying I should have been more lenient? should I still be going to the novus order mass? would this be loving her more?


    I was calling out Zeitun's statement here where she is accusing the man.

    I do not think you are heavy handed at all.

    I think everyone should attend TLM!

    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    « Reply #151 on: August 02, 2013, 11:34:22 PM »
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  • Hello Gooch!

    The only advice I can give you from experience is that prayer is ultimately the most efficient means whereby one may prevail against the obduracy of those whom we love: for it is not one who endeavors to change the other person but heavenly grace that liberates our loved ones' free volition from attachment to self and other temporary things. Such grace, however, it to be sought by prayer and penance.

    Self-abandonment to the will of God, devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the earnest practice of the theological and moral virtues will enable you to be an exemplar whom your wife will acknowledge if only her free will is unburdened by self-attached and self-will. I would recommend you focus your energy on your children, praying for them, teaching them by word and deed, &c., so that your wife may awaken to the sublimity and profundity of the Catholic faith in all its luminosity. Perhaps if she sees how much your love the children and how you are all jealousy for their eternal welfare and the greater good of the household, maybe she too will remember that she does not belong to herself insofar as she is now a mother: a mother is never her own, and a married woman finds her freedom in maternity, and ultimately her salvation. This is as St. Thomas teaches when he comments on how St. Paul exhorts women to bear children: "Bear children, and not kill them secretly by abortion: yet she shall be saved through childbearing, if she continue in the faith [I Tim. v. 14]" ("Filios procreare, et non eos occulte occidere per abortum. Supra II, 15: salvabitur autem per filiorum generationem, si permanserit in fide," super I Tim. cap. v. lect. 2).

    I especially recommend devotion to the Miraculous Infant Jesus of Prague. Please be assured of my prayers.








    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.


    Offline Tiffany

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    « Reply #152 on: August 02, 2013, 11:35:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: Tiffany
    Quote from: ggreg
    Quote from: Zeitun
     While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church.  You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.  

    Your goal should be to convince her to use no contraception and the only way to do that is to remove her fear that you will force her to produce more babies.  She is nearing menopause anyway and her fertility is declining.


    Good advice, though I question how he makes a convincing argument to the bit in red above.

    If she removes the coil, biologically speaking the only way she can be sure and therefore have no fear is if they do not have sex until the menopause.

    Otherwise he can lessen the fear, but he cannot remove it.  She might get pregnant again.







    The Wind and the Sun were disputing which was the stronger. Suddenly they saw a traveller coming down the road, and the Sun said: "I see a way to decide our dispute. Whichever of us can cause that traveller to take off his cloak shall be regarded as the stronger. You begin." So the Sun retired behind a cloud, and the Wind began to blow as hard as it could upon the traveller. But the harder he blew the more closely did the traveller wrap his cloak round him, till at last the Wind had to give up in despair. Then the Sun came out and shone in all his glory upon the
    traveller, who soon found it too hot to walk with his cloak on.
    I agree I know women 46 - 48 that are still having babies.  :baby:



    I try not to mind thumbs usually but who would give this a thumbs down?

    Offline Novus Weirdo

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    « Reply #153 on: August 02, 2013, 11:55:09 PM »
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  • Quote from: Tiffany
    Quote from: Novus Weirdo
    Quote from: Tiffany
    Quote from: Telesphorus
    "He was controlling, so I had to leave him" - how many so-called trads will accept that excuse at face value from women - how many Catholic men see themselves blamed for their wives abandoning the religion and abandoning their responsibilities?

    I don't think it's an exaggeration to say this justification of women's horrible behavior and their knowledge that interlopers will support them, even at their own church, for breaking up their families, is one of the major reasons for the high divorce rate, particularly for religious men.

    Being a pious man means getting a kick in the teeth from the liberals in the congregation when the worst happens.


    Quote from: Zeitun


    Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up.  Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife.  Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control.  While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church.  You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.  
     


    It's his fault for his heavy-handedness and not loving her.


    How presumptuous.



    Go back a few pages and read the exchange between us.


    I did do that and saw where you took a small portion of an earlier post and twisted it to fit your agenda.  You may think it was clever and that no one would catch it but TASS and Pravda were doing it before you were born.  No one cares what your agenda is, that is, IF you kept it to yourself.  But your feminist philosophy, your feminist need, to get out and subject the world to your oinks and belches that you think we want to hear (which we don't) under the guise of being 'strong' and 'having a voice' only leads people to confusion and to question what should be done as opposed to what you think should be done.  To be blunt, this was a man posting about a man's issue.  Why do you need to interject YOUR opinion?

    You're an angry woman.  I can understand that since you've broadcast it in other posts.  Divorced, not annulled (strike one); admitted acquaintances with people of questionable moral substance (strike two); prone to completely non-Catholic feminist views (strike three)...  Yet you thought it would all be handy ammo when you got on this forum, thinking that by being worldly you would somehow know more than others who have been here a while and who are much more knowledgeable in terms of Catholic doctrine.  In other words, people who live it.  I cannot include myself in that but I can recognize what I am and what I'm not.  I don't think you can say the same.  Have you ever heard of TMI?  Anyone can go through your posts and see your life story, which is quite Protestant (did you ever lose that weight?  You posted about it a while ago.  Just checking...).  You've made yourself quite public and you expect the contents of your life to be sympathetic let alone Catholic?  Hilarious!

    Again, your best option right now is to attain some self-awareness and leave marriage advice to people who are actually married.  Keep in mind that men are not always the problem and that the Virgin Mary did not wear a pink ribbon.




    Offline Tiffany

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    « Reply #154 on: August 03, 2013, 12:30:03 AM »
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  • Quote from: Novus Weirdo
    Quote from: Tiffany
    Quote from: Novus Weirdo
    Quote from: Tiffany
    Quote from: Telesphorus
    "He was controlling, so I had to leave him" - how many so-called trads will accept that excuse at face value from women - how many Catholic men see themselves blamed for their wives abandoning the religion and abandoning their responsibilities?

    I don't think it's an exaggeration to say this justification of women's horrible behavior and their knowledge that interlopers will support them, even at their own church, for breaking up their families, is one of the major reasons for the high divorce rate, particularly for religious men.

    Being a pious man means getting a kick in the teeth from the liberals in the congregation when the worst happens.


    Quote from: Zeitun


    Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up.  Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife.  Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control.  While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church.  You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.  
     


    It's his fault for his heavy-handedness and not loving her.


    How presumptuous.



    Go back a few pages and read the exchange between us.


    I did do that and saw where you took a small portion of an earlier post and twisted it to fit your agenda.  You may think it was clever and that no one would catch it but TASS and Pravda were doing it before you were born.  No one cares what your agenda is, that is, IF you kept it to yourself.  But your feminist philosophy, your feminist need, to get out and subject the world to your oinks and belches that you think we want to hear (which we don't) under the guise of being 'strong' and 'having a voice' only leads people to confusion and to question what should be done as opposed to what you think should be done.  To be blunt, this was a man posting about a man's issue.  Why do you need to interject YOUR opinion?

    You're an angry woman.  I can understand that since you've broadcast it in other posts.  Divorced, not annulled (strike one); admitted acquaintances with people of questionable moral substance (strike two); prone to completely non-Catholic feminist views (strike three)...  Yet you thought it would all be handy ammo when you got on this forum, thinking that by being worldly you would somehow know more than others who have been here a while and who are much more knowledgeable in terms of Catholic doctrine.  In other words, people who live it.  I cannot include myself in that but I can recognize what I am and what I'm not.  I don't think you can say the same.  Have you ever heard of TMI?  Anyone can go through your posts and see your life story, which is quite Protestant (did you ever lose that weight?  You posted about it a while ago.  Just checking...).  You've made yourself quite public and you expect the contents of your life to be sympathetic let alone Catholic?  Hilarious!

    Again, your best option right now is to attain some self-awareness and leave marriage advice to people who are actually married.  Keep in mind that men are not always the problem and that the Virgin Mary did not wear a pink ribbon.





    I've twisted nothing.

    It's a public forum. If M or MD ban me then I can't post here. Until then if you don't want to hear what I or anyone else on hear has to say, put me on ignore or click on the red box with an X. Seriously, I'm not barging in on your family dinner, it's the internet. Some posters get under my skin, I put them ignore or X out. Sometimes there are just personality clashes even between good hearted people.

    Civil divorce and Church annulment are different issues. It's due to this culture  with serial bigamy that we automatically associate divorce with obtaining Church annulments.

    Where are these completely non-Catholic feminist posts of mine?


    Offline Tiffany

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    « Reply #155 on: August 03, 2013, 12:36:31 AM »
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  • Quote from: Novus Weirdo
    Yet you thought it would all be handy ammo when you got on this forum, thinking that by being worldly you would somehow know more than others who have been here a while and who are much more knowledgeable in terms of Catholic doctrine.



    This is really nuts.

    First of all, I searched out a trad forum, thinking other trads would be into natural remedies/midwives/not standard OB/GYN care, asking about a natural treatment for female problems that was recommended to me.

    Secondly I've never thought of myself as worldly.

    I think you should just put me on ignore.

    Offline Tiffany

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    « Reply #156 on: August 03, 2013, 12:37:40 AM »
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  • Quote from: Hobbledehoy
    Hello Gooch!

    The only advice I can give you from experience is that prayer is ultimately the most efficient means whereby one may prevail against the obduracy of those whom we love: for it is not one who endeavors to change the other person but heavenly grace that liberates our loved ones' free volition from attachment to self and other temporary things. Such grace, however, it to be sought by prayer and penance.

    Self-abandonment to the will of God, devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the earnest practice of the theological and moral virtues will enable you to be an exemplar whom your wife will acknowledge if only her free will is unburdened by self-attached and self-will. I would recommend you focus your energy on your children, praying for them, teaching them by word and deed, &c., so that your wife may awaken to the sublimity and profundity of the Catholic faith in all its luminosity. Perhaps if she sees how much your love the children and how you are all jealousy for their eternal welfare and the greater good of the household, maybe she too will remember that she does not belong to herself insofar as she is now a mother: a mother is never her own, and a married woman finds her freedom in maternity, and ultimately her salvation. This is as St. Thomas teaches when he comments on how St. Paul exhorts women to bear children: "Bear children, and not kill them secretly by abortion: yet she shall be saved through childbearing, if she continue in the faith [I Tim. v. 14]" ("Filios procreare, et non eos occulte occidere per abortum. Supra II, 15: salvabitur autem per filiorum generationem, si permanserit in fide," super I Tim. cap. v. lect. 2).

    I especially recommend devotion to the Miraculous Infant Jesus of Prague. Please be assured of my prayers.










    Glad you are back! :)

    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #157 on: August 03, 2013, 01:56:52 AM »
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  • Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: Tiffany
    Quote from: Telesphorus
    "He was controlling, so I had to leave him" - how many so-called trads will accept that excuse at face value from women - how many Catholic men see themselves blamed for their wives abandoning the religion and abandoning their responsibilities?

    I don't think it's an exaggeration to say this justification of women's horrible behavior and their knowledge that interlopers will support them, even at their own church, for breaking up their families, is one of the major reasons for the high divorce rate, particularly for religious men.

    Being a pious man means getting a kick in the teeth from the liberals in the congregation when the worst happens.




    Quote from: Zeitun


    Please see the big picture and know that the devil's goal here is to split you up.  Your priority must be your soul and the soul of your wife.  Even if she has the IUD removed she may still divorce you because of the real issue--control.  While you are the head of the family, in your heavy-handedness, you haven't loved her as Christ loves the Church.  You rule her with an iron rod instead of with tender mercy.  
     


    It's his fault for his heavy-handedness and not loving her.

    why do you say I don't love her? what exactly was my heavy handedness, which issue are yousaying I should have been more lenient? should I still be going to the novus order mass? would this be loving her more?


    She was being SARCASTIC.


    Offline ggreg

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    « Reply #158 on: August 03, 2013, 03:20:15 AM »
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  • Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: ggreg
    Gooch, according to the other thread you converted around two years ago or less.

    So it's not like your wife married you with a full and frank understanding of what she was letting himself in for.  You weren't from a family of 9 kids with all of your brothers and sisters having 6 or more.

    From her perspective you have moved the goalposts on her.  She was at least a decade into a marriage where she thought she could use contraception and all of a suddenly she is not only dealing with a convert's zeal (famous for causing these and other problems) but a bunch of other stuff like trousers, broccoli and inoculations.

    Blimey man, can't you see what has happened here?

    Turn the dial back a little.  Turn the volume down.  Let her slowly absorb the new you.

    With that I wish you luck and I have deals to do.

    yes I have moved the goal posts on her, not sure though are you advocating I give in to her? when you say turn the volume down I believe i am doing that, but unless I give in I don't see how else I can turn the dial back...as for trading in other issues for this one that won't fly, she's into the organic food, I don' force her to go to the mass every sunday..she understands the kids will never be vaccinated again...


    You said she felt you had railroaded her on a lot of other issues which she had given in on.

    Turn the volume down means saying you are willing to consider with an open heart ALL of the issues that don't involve mortally sinful immediate grave matter for the one that does, the one that WILL destroy your marriage.  The issue that no Traditionalist Catholic and many a novus Ordo Catholic would or could tolerate.

    Basically you have to shock and surprise her and make her reconsider you as a husband.  Right now she is thinking through the pros and cons of divorce.  What does that tell you about her state of mind?

    Without breaking down the walls of her personal Alamo she is not going to back down.  You are otherwise at an impasse.  In my view and experience, 18 months without sexual intercourse with your wife over an issue like this is a HUGE problem.  In effect you past a sign on the road saying "slow down dangerous cliffs ahead" and you have ignored it.

    And let's face it, your methods have not worked or you would not be here seeking advice.  The definition of stupid is carrying on doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

    Want the harsh truth?  Your wife is either cheating on you or masturbating and thinking about other men.  You've allowed that to happen with the enforced abstinence.

    You are closer to the cliff edge than you think.  If you stand on principal now, you will fall down that cliff and as a man in America, Australia or Britain today the courts are basically going to chew you up and spit you out.

    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    « Reply #159 on: August 03, 2013, 06:13:00 AM »
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  • Quote from: ggreg
    Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: ggreg
    Gooch, according to the other thread you converted around two years ago or less.

    So it's not like your wife married you with a full and frank understanding of what she was letting himself in for.  You weren't from a family of 9 kids with all of your brothers and sisters having 6 or more.

    From her perspective you have moved the goalposts on her.  She was at least a decade into a marriage where she thought she could use contraception and all of a suddenly she is not only dealing with a convert's zeal (famous for causing these and other problems) but a bunch of other stuff like trousers, broccoli and inoculations.

    Blimey man, can't you see what has happened here?

    Turn the dial back a little.  Turn the volume down.  Let her slowly absorb the new you.

    With that I wish you luck and I have deals to do.

    yes I have moved the goal posts on her, not sure though are you advocating I give in to her? when you say turn the volume down I believe i am doing that, but unless I give in I don't see how else I can turn the dial back...as for trading in other issues for this one that won't fly, she's into the organic food, I don' force her to go to the mass every sunday..she understands the kids will never be vaccinated again...


    You said she felt you had railroaded her on a lot of other issues which she had given in on.

    Turn the volume down means saying you are willing to consider with an open heart ALL of the issues that don't involve mortally sinful immediate grave matter for the one that does, the one that WILL destroy your marriage.  The issue that no Traditionalist Catholic and many a novus Ordo Catholic would or could tolerate.

    Basically you have to shock and surprise her and make her reconsider you as a husband.  Right now she is thinking through the pros and cons of divorce.  What does that tell you about her state of mind?

    Without breaking down the walls of her personal Alamo she is not going to back down.  You are otherwise at an impasse.  In my view and experience, 18 months without sexual intercourse with your wife over an issue like this is a HUGE problem.  In effect you past a sign on the road saying "slow down dangerous cliffs ahead" and you have ignored it.

    And let's face it, your methods have not worked or you would not be here seeking advice.  The definition of stupid is carrying on doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

    Want the harsh truth?  Your wife is either cheating on you or masturbating and thinking about other men.  You've allowed that to happen with the enforced abstinence.

    You are closer to the cliff edge than you think.  If you stand on principal now, you will fall down that cliff and as a man in America, Australia or Britain today the courts are basically going to chew you up and spit you out.

    so you are in effect saying I should give in, correct? and no she's not cheating on me lol...how have I ignored it if I'm telling her about natural methods, if she accepts an alternative to contraception  then we have a resolution...most modern women of today would have left me by now, the truth is she realizes she can't live without me,

    Offline Tiffany

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    « Reply #160 on: August 03, 2013, 06:20:08 AM »
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  •  Ggreg is a liberal and likes to devalue those who follow Catholic teaching.


    Offline ggreg

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    « Reply #161 on: August 03, 2013, 06:26:23 AM »
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  • Yes, I am saying handle her differently to the way you have been.  Because the way you have been handling her lead to her essentially not trusting in you to provide the emotional support for a fourth child.  Let's face it, with the spacing you had, she was only going to have 1 more anyway, worst case 2 before the menopause.

    Why did she get the IUD fitted?  Deep down what were HER reasons.

    Moreover, I doubt you are as in tune with what she is doing and thinking as you'd like to think, or you would not be in this pickle in the first place.  Women are famous for being two faced and cold about these things.  They can compartmentalise very well and then switch from night to day.  So she might not be cheating with a flesh and blood person but do you really think she has gone without any relief for the last 18 months?  You are a 40 year old guy and know how the world turns.

    Why would she?  She has an IUD she is hardly going to worry about masturbation and you are not with her 24x7.

    And finally Gooch, if she's not going to leave you then why post in the first place?  Stop kidding yourself.  When a woman throws the word divorce around it means she's thought about it.

    Best of luck, I have a weekend of stuff to do.

    Offline Tiffany

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    « Reply #162 on: August 03, 2013, 06:29:53 AM »
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  • Quote from: ggreg
    Yes, I am saying handle her differently to the way you have been.  Because the way you have been handling her lead to her essentially not trusting in you to provide the emotional support for a fourth child.  Let's face it, with the spacing you had, she was only going to have 1 more anyway, worst case 2 before the menopause.

    Why did she get the IUD fitted?  

    Moreover, I doubt you are as in tune with what she is doing and thinking as you'd like to think, or you would not be in this pickle in the first place.  Women are famous for being two faced and cold about these things.  They can compartmentalise very well and then switch from night to day.  So she might not be cheating with a flesh and blood person but do you really think she has gone without any relief for the last 18 months?  You are a 40 year old guy and know how the world turns.

    Why would she?  She has an IUD she is hardly going to worry about masturbation and you are not with her 24x7.

    And finally Gooch, if she's not going to leave you then why post in the first place?  Stop kidding yourself.  When a woman throws the word divorce around it means she's thought about it.

    Best of luck, I have a weekend of stuff to do.
     Ggreg you are worse than crazy women  trying to meddle and put thoughts into someone's head.

    Offline ggreg

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    « Reply #163 on: August 03, 2013, 06:33:02 AM »
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  • It happened that a Fox caught its tail in a trap, and in struggling to release himself lost all of it but the stump. At first he was ashamed to show himself among his fellow foxes. But at last he determined to put a bolder face upon his misfortune, and summoned all the foxes to a general meeting to consider a proposal which he had to place before them. When they had assembled together the Fox proposed that they should all do away with their tails. He pointed out how inconvenient a tail was when
    they were pursued by their enemies, the dogs; how much it was in the way when they desired to sit down and hold a friendly conversation with one another. He failed to see any advantage in carrying about such a useless encumbrance.

    "That is all very well," said one of the older foxes; "but I do not think you would have recommended us to dispense with our chief ornament if you had not happened to lose it yourself." :wink:

    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    « Reply #164 on: August 03, 2013, 12:03:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: ggreg
    Yes, I am saying handle her differently to the way you have been.  Because the way you have been handling her lead to her essentially not trusting in you to provide the emotional support for a fourth child.  Let's face it, with the spacing you had, she was only going to have 1 more anyway, worst case 2 before the menopause.

    Why did she get the IUD fitted?  Deep down what were HER reasons.

    Moreover, I doubt you are as in tune with what she is doing and thinking as you'd like to think, or you would not be in this pickle in the first place.  Women are famous for being two faced and cold about these things.  They can compartmentalise very well and then switch from night to day.  So she might not be cheating with a flesh and blood person but do you really think she has gone without any relief for the last 18 months?  You are a 40 year old guy and know how the world turns.

    Why would she?  She has an IUD she is hardly going to worry about masturbation and you are not with her 24x7.

    And finally Gooch, if she's not going to leave you then why post in the first place?  Stop kidding yourself.  When a woman throws the word divorce around it means she's thought about it.

    Best of luck, I have a weekend of stuff to do.


    it has nothing to do with the emotional support for a 4th child, she's feeling run down and tired, but if I do give in then for sure I save my marriage, but at what cost..my soul? as for her not leaving this is what I feel, she's threatened but I don't think she'll pull the trigger, but if I do nothing she will continue to be miserable which I don't want, this is the pickle I'm in

     

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