Author Topic: Why Vatican II allowed you to eat meat on Fridays etc.  (Read 586 times)

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Offline cassini

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Why Vatican II allowed you to eat meat on Fridays etc.
« on: September 15, 2021, 02:28:30 PM »
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  • Doing a little research and I came across this interesting piece of Vatican II that must have led them to allow eating meat on Fridays etc.

    Bishop La Ravoire Morrow of Krishnagar, India, said the Church in the West seems to have become far too juridical. Many people could not understand how God could be expected to damn an individual to hell for eternity for such a thing as eating meat on Friday, and thus put him on a level with an adulterous atheist. There was no proportion between the deed and the punishment. The mentality behind such legislation seemed more legal than religious and made the Church a laughing-stock for many. It was well known that rules did not produce the desired effect, but only dulled the moral sense of the faithful. People did not generally need to be forced. Insistence on this kind of thing made real dialogue impossible.


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Why Vatican II allowed you to eat meat on Fridays etc.
    « Reply #1 on: September 15, 2021, 07:25:22 PM »
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  • Doing a little research and I came across this interesting piece of Vatican II that must have led them to allow eating meat on Fridays etc.

    Bishop La Ravoire Morrow of Krishnagar, India, said the Church in the West seems to have become far too juridical. Many people could not understand how God could be expected to damn an individual to hell for eternity for such a thing as eating meat on Friday, and thus put him on a level with an adulterous atheist. There was no proportion between the deed and the punishment. The mentality behind such legislation seemed more legal than religious and made the Church a laughing-stock for many. It was well known that rules did not produce the desired effect, but only dulled the moral sense of the faithful. People did not generally need to be forced. Insistence on this kind of thing made real dialogue impossible.
    What is a "piece of Vatican II"?

    Unless I am missing something, V2 did not summarily permit the eating of meat on Friday.  The Church did, around that time, leave it up to the discretion of national bishops' conferences, to derogate the practice outside of Lent, and to allow the faithful, at their discretion, to substitute another penance or work of charity.

    Of course, nobody heard this, all they heard is "we can now eat meat on Friday", and they don't give it a second thought.  Where are all those acts of penance and charity?  Ever hear anyone mention this?

    Not clear whether the penitential obligation (i.e., either no meat, or something else) still binds under pain of mortal sin.  I don't think it does in the UK.  If it binds in the US, when was the last time you ever heard a Novus Ordo priest say anything about it?

    Just don't eat the meat.  It's so much simpler, and you have no doubt you have done what the Church requires.


    Offline cassini

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    Re: Why Vatican II allowed you to eat meat on Fridays etc.
    « Reply #2 on: September 16, 2021, 04:58:34 AM »
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  • What is a "piece of Vatican II"?

    Unless I am missing something, V2 did not summarily permit the eating of meat on Friday.  The Church did, around that time, leave it up to the discretion of national bishops' conferences, to derogate the practice outside of Lent, and to allow the faithful, at their discretion, to substitute another penance or work of charity.

    Of course, nobody heard this, all they heard is "we can now eat meat on Friday", and they don't give it a second thought.  Where are all those acts of penance and charity?  Ever hear anyone mention this?

    Not clear whether the penitential obligation (i.e., either no meat, or something else) still binds under pain of mortal sin.  I don't think it does in the UK.  If it binds in the US, when was the last time you ever heard a Novus Ordo priest say anything about it?

    Just don't eat the meat.  It's so much simpler, and you have no doubt you have done what the Church requires.

    A 'piece of Vatican II' is the opinion of a bishop given at Vatican II by numerous bishops, taken from a record of what was said at one of the sessions of that non-dogmatic council, that is, The Church in the modern world.

    I know Vatican II did not summarily permit such changes at Vatican II. They came afterwards. I posted this particular speech to show why the change to the second commandment of the Catholic Church probably came about.

    In his opinion at Vatican II, bishop La Revoire Morrow, compared the sin of abstinance from meat on Friday with that of an adulterous atheist in that either of the two sins will send one to Hell. That is what I thought might generate a few opinions on CIF.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why Vatican II allowed you to eat meat on Fridays etc.
    « Reply #3 on: September 16, 2021, 06:00:33 AM »
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  • In his opinion at Vatican II, bishop La Revoire Morrow, compared the sin of abstinance from meat on Friday with that of an adulterous atheist in that either of the two sins will send one to Hell. That is what I thought might generate a few opinions on CIF.

    If that were the case, they could simply have changed the rule to binding under pain of serious venial sin.  Problem solved.  I can see this being a point, where it could make the Church appear somewhat Pharasaical to have a fasting law be on the same level of someone committing the sin of sodomy or murdering someone.  No reason, however, to get rid of it ... just reduce it to binding under pain of a serious venial sin.  And I do believe that fasting on Fridays is still on the books ... or else you have to substitute something equivalent.  I actually knew some NO Catholics who kept the Friday abstinence and pointed this out.  In practice, nobody actually substitutes anything equivalent ... largely because they're not catechized.  If they were catechized about it ... instead of thinking that the rule no longer exists ... those who are serious Catholics would likely adhere to it (vs. the ones that only bother showing up to Mass every once in a while anyway).

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Why Vatican II allowed you to eat meat on Fridays etc.
    « Reply #4 on: September 16, 2021, 06:25:08 AM »
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  • .  And I do believe that fasting on Fridays is still on the books ... or else you have to substitute something equivalent.
    You're right, the NO Canon Law says:
    Days of Penance

    Can. 1249 The divine law binds all the Christian faithful to do penance each in his or her own way. In order for all to be united among themselves by some common observance of penance, however, penitential days are prescribed on which the Christian faithful devote themselves in a special way to prayer, perform works of piety and charity, and deny themselves by fulfilling their own obligations more faithfully and especially by observing fast and abstinence, according to the norm of the following canons.

    Can. 1250 The penitential days and times in the universal Church are every Friday of the whole year and the season of Lent.

    Can. 1251 Abstinence from meat, or from some other food as determined by the Episcopal Conference, is to be observed on all Fridays, unless a solemnity should fall on a Friday. Abstinence and fasting are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Durango77

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    Re: Why Vatican II allowed you to eat meat on Fridays etc.
    « Reply #5 on: September 16, 2021, 01:15:44 PM »
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  • A 'piece of Vatican II' is the opinion of a bishop given at Vatican II by numerous bishops, taken from a record of what was said at one of the sessions of that non-dogmatic council, that is, The Church in the modern world.

    I know Vatican II did not summarily permit such changes at Vatican II. They came afterwards. I posted this particular speech to show why the change to the second commandment of the Catholic Church probably came about.

    In his opinion at Vatican II, bishop La Revoire Morrow, compared the sin of abstinance from meat on Friday with that of an adulterous atheist in that either of the two sins will send one to Hell. That is what I thought might generate a few opinions on CIF.

    Why would someone deliberately eat meat on Friday without a dispensation from the local priest?  You got a dinner planned tell the priest on Sunday and he can let you slide for the one day, or that's my understanding anyways.  I could see why it would be a mortal sin though.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Why Vatican II allowed you to eat meat on Fridays etc.
    « Reply #6 on: September 16, 2021, 01:25:40 PM »
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  • Why would someone deliberately eat meat on Friday without a dispensation from the local priest?  You got a dinner planned tell the priest on Sunday and he can let you slide for the one day, or that's my understanding anyways.  I could see why it would be a mortal sin though.
    Far as I know, NOers never fast or abstain, whatever the law is, they don't believe in it.

    Some years ago after a business meeting on Ash Wednesday, about six or seven of us that worked in my office went to lunch, most of them were NOers. I ordered first - fish and chips - and I looked at the rest and told them - "remember, it's Ash Wednesday so no meat today don't forget" - they all laughed, some said "we don't have to anymore" even "screw that" everyone of them ordered meat knowing full well it was Ash Wednesday before they ordered. They simply could not care less.
    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Bataar

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    Re: Why Vatican II allowed you to eat meat on Fridays etc.
    « Reply #7 on: September 17, 2021, 11:51:08 AM »
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  • Far as I know, NOers never fast or abstain, whatever the law is, they don't believe in it.

    Some years ago after a business meeting on Ash Wednesday, about six or seven of us that worked in my office went to lunch, most of them were NOers. I ordered first - fish and chips - and I looked at the rest and told them - "remember, it's Ash Wednesday so no meat today don't forget" - they all laughed, some said "we don't have to anymore" even "screw that" everyone of them ordered meat knowing full well it was Ash Wednesday before they ordered. They simply could not care less.
    It may not be that they don't believe in it, but rather have never heard it. The Ash Wednesday one is a bit wonky as even when I was in the NO, heard about that. In the NO, though, giving up anything on Fridays or any kind of penance was never mentioned. Most people in the NO honestly have no idea they should be doing anything different on Fridays.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Why Vatican II allowed you to eat meat on Fridays etc.
    « Reply #8 on: September 21, 2021, 07:32:23 PM »
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  • Quote
    how God could be expected to damn an individual to hell for eternity for such a thing as eating meat on Friday, and thus put him on a level with an adulterous atheist.

    That's not how that works. God doesn't damn anyone, we damn ourselves through our sins. Secondly, who is to say that in God's mercy He would punish an "adulterous atheist" the exact same way as the one who ate meat on a Friday? Lastly, the view this man has on God is warped and somewhat Jansenistic. As if God doesn't already do everything possible to help us get to Heaven.


    Quote
    Is it my will that a sinner should die, saith the Lord God, and not that he should be converted from his ways, and live? But if the just man turn himself away from his justice, and do iniquity according to all the abominations which the wicked man useth to work, shall he live? all his justices which he hath done, shall not be remembered: in the prevarication, by which he hath prevaricated, and in his sin, which he hath committed, in them he shall die. And you have said: The way of the Lord is not right. Hear ye, therefore, O house of Israel: Is it my way that is not right, and are not rather your ways perverse? - Ezechiel 18:23-25


    What's most revealing about this quote is the severe ignorance of Catholic teaching on hell and damnation, a far more serious problem than Vatican II "allowing" Catholics to eat meat on Fridays.
    "The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Why Vatican II allowed you to eat meat on Fridays etc.
    « Reply #9 on: September 21, 2021, 09:14:32 PM »
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  • If that were the case, they could simply have changed the rule to binding under pain of serious venial sin.  Problem solved.  I can see this being a point, where it could make the Church appear somewhat Pharasaical to have a fasting law be on the same level of someone committing the sin of sodomy or murdering someone.  No reason, however, to get rid of it ... just reduce it to binding under pain of a serious venial sin.  And I do believe that fasting on Fridays is still on the books ... or else you have to substitute something equivalent.  I actually knew some NO Catholics who kept the Friday abstinence and pointed this out.  In practice, nobody actually substitutes anything equivalent ... largely because they're not catechized.  If they were catechized about it ... instead of thinking that the rule no longer exists ... those who are serious Catholics would likely adhere to it (vs. the ones that only bother showing up to Mass every once in a while anyway).

    Being basically a kindly sort and a bit of a softie, if I were making the rules, I would restore Friday abstinence across the board, but as Ladislaus alludes to, I would only bind the faithful under pain of venial sin --- no free passes (unless there is a difficult situation, being in a situation where you are basically forced to eat meat), you can't blow it off sinlessly, but to stake eternal salvation on it, I'm not sure I'd go that far.  Milk before meat (unavoidable pun unintended).


     

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