Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Matthew on October 31, 2017, 08:30:53 AM
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Looking at each of my Trad (1962, pre-Vatican II) Catholic calendars, none of them has Halloween marked as a fast/abstinence day as the vigil of All Saints Day.
This isn't a Novus Ordo calendar. It has all the Fridays marked full abstinence, each day of Lent is a day of Fast, the vigil of Pentecost is marked as a partial fast/abstinence day, the Ember Days are all marked (Fast and partial abstinence on Weds, Sat; Fast and full abstinence on Fri), Vigil of the Immac. Conception is marked full fast/abstinence.
It would seem that there is a hierarchy to Trad fasting/abstinence.
None at all = you're Novus Ordo
You "try to remember" to not eat meat on Fridays during Lent = still Novus Ordo
No meat on Fridays = average Trad
No meat on Fridays and practice the Ember days = serious Trad
But then even the VIGILS seem to have a hierarchy among them. Some of them are partial abstinence, some are full abstinence, and some are none of the above!
In fact, I just saw on one calendar that CHRISTMAS EVE is a full fast/abstinence day -- even though it falls on a Sunday this year! That has to be a mistake. One should never fast on Sunday. I'll have to look at my other calendars.
Also, on this note, I know that even at the Seminary there was some disagreement/surprise about which days we were supposed to fast on. The whole "Feasting and Fasting at the same time" thing.
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Some of them are partial abstinence, some are full abstinence, and some are none of the above!
I think part of the reason for the difference is that some of the Holy Days are worldwide (i.e. Christmas, Ascension), while some are country specific (i.e. Immaculate Conception, All Saints). The country-specific holy days are made a holy day by the bishops of the country (i.e. St Patrick is a holy day in Ireland; Ephiphany is a holy day in much of South America and probably the Middle East). I would think the vigils which are world-wide would have a full fast/abstinence and they would also be the oldest holy days of our Faith (i.e. Vigils of Christmas, Easter, Pentecost) and these feasts also USED TO have octaves of celebration afterwards. So many, the full fast/abstinence is related to preparing for the octave of celebration? The feasts of All Saints, All Souls and the Immaculate Conception are relatively new feasts, compared to Christmas, Easter and Pentecost.
Also, one wonders why the feast of the Annunciation is not a holy day? I think it was Anne Catherine Emerich who explained the marvelous importance of March 25:
1. The sixth day of creation, when God created Adam
2. The actual day of the Annunciation
3. The day of Good Friday
4. ...I think there was one more connection to the Old Testament, either Abraham or Moses...
5. Dante picked this day to begin his 'Divine Comedy' story
6. Tolkien picked this day specificially as the day when the One Ring was destroyed (obvious parallel to Good Friday)
Anyway, the Church knows best and things happen in God's time but I wouldn't be surprised if this was made a Holy Day in the future.
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I recall reading somewhere that the Vigil of All Saints (and associated fasting) was abolished in the 1962 missal. I'll do some looking around and see if I can find it.
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Also, one wonders why the feast of the Annunciation is not a holy day? I think it was Anne Catherine Emerich who explained the marvelous importance of March 25:
1. The sixth day of creation, when God created Adam
This is an interesting assertion. The world was created on March 20? How do we know this?
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Adam was created on March 25th according to Anne Catherine Emerich (I think it was her. Might have been another mystic).
Eve was created at 3am, the devil's hour, on Oct 31. The parallels are obvious. (I'm kidding! This eve thing is a joke.)
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I am all for more fasting and abstinence. If it were up to me I would increase the amount of fasting and abstinence required of Catholics.
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The Canadian SSPX calendar has today marked as a partial fast/abstinence day
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Adam was created on March 25th according to Anne Catherine Emerich (I think it was her. Might have been another mystic).
Interesting. I am, at best, quite skeptical of this. Anything information you can provide would be helpful.
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Interesting. I am, at best, quite skeptical of this. Anything information you can provide would be helpful.
It's a private revelation made to a mystic. Anyone can accept or reject it as they like; it's not "of the faith".
I did a quick google search and couldn't find the woman who said this. Don't have time to find it now but i'll keep thinking about it; maybe it'll turn up. But regardless of who said it, it sounds like you don't believe it anyway. Which is fine since no one has to.
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Looking at each of my Trad (1962, pre-Vatican II) Catholic calendars, none of them has Halloween marked as a fast/abstinence day as the vigil of All Saints Day.
This isn't a Novus Ordo calendar. It has all the Fridays marked full abstinence, each day of Lent is a day of Fast, the vigil of Pentecost is marked as a partial fast/abstinence day, the Ember Days are all marked (Fast and partial abstinence on Weds, Sat; Fast and full abstinence on Fri), Vigil of the Immac. Conception is marked full fast/abstinence.
It would seem that there is a hierarchy to Trad fasting/abstinence.
None at all = you're Novus Ordo
You "try to remember" to not eat meat on Fridays during Lent = still Novus Ordo
No meat on Fridays = average Trad
No meat on Fridays and practice the Ember days = serious Trad
But then even the VIGILS seem to have a hierarchy among them. Some of them are partial abstinence, some are full abstinence, and some are none of the above!
In fact, I just saw on one calendar that CHRISTMAS EVE is a full fast/abstinence day -- even though it falls on a Sunday this year! That has to be a mistake. One should never fast on Sunday. I'll have to look at my other calendars.
Also, on this note, I know that even at the Seminary there was some disagreement/surprise about which days we were supposed to fast on. The whole "Feasting and Fasting at the same time" thing.
are there any "average "trads here that would not follow the ember days fasting? I would be surprised as it doesn't make sense
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I think part of the reason for the difference is that some of the Holy Days are worldwide (i.e. Christmas, Ascension), while some are country specific (i.e. Immaculate Conception, All Saints). The country-specific holy days are made a holy day by the bishops of the country (i.e. St Patrick is a holy day in Ireland; Ephiphany is a holy day in much of South America and probably the Middle East). I would think the vigils which are world-wide would have a full fast/abstinence and they would also be the oldest holy days of our Faith (i.e. Vigils of Christmas, Easter, Pentecost) and these feasts also USED TO have octaves of celebration afterwards. So many, the full fast/abstinence is related to preparing for the octave of celebration? The feasts of All Saints, All Souls and the Immaculate Conception are relatively new feasts, compared to Christmas, Easter and Pentecost.
Also, one wonders why the feast of the Annunciation is not a holy day? I think it was Anne Catherine Emerich who explained the marvelous importance of March 25:
1. The sixth day of creation, when God created Adam
2. The actual day of the Annunciation
3. The day of Good Friday
4. ...I think there was one more connection to the Old Testament, either Abraham or Moses...
5. Dante picked this day to begin his 'Divine Comedy' story
6. Tolkien picked this day specificially as the day when the One Ring was destroyed (obvious parallel to Good Friday)
Anyway, the Church knows best and things happen in God's time but I wouldn't be surprised if this was made a Holy Day in the future.
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These days when the Church is in such chaos, it makes sense that bishops against bishops would be causing all the more confusion.
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I have received the answer that when a Catholic is traveling, when he sets foot in a foreign country he is obligated to observe the local customs of fast, abstinence and Holy Day of Obligation observance in that area.
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But if you take that rule into practice today, how would you go about finding out what the rule is for a given area? Which bishop do you pay attention to? In L.A. we have no more Ascension Thursday because Roger Balony moved it to the following Sunday, and the same for August 15th, the Assumption, moved to the nearest Sunday.
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But if you take that rule into practice today, how would you go about finding out what the rule is for a given area? Which bishop do you pay attention to? In L.A. we have no more Ascension Thursday because Roger Balony moved it to the following Sunday, and the same for August 15th, the Assumption, moved to the nearest Sunday.
I had no idea you were still novus ordo, sorry about that!