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Author Topic: Where’s the Vocations?  (Read 1442 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

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Re: Where’s the Vocations?
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2021, 07:40:35 PM »
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  • I don't think politics is the explanation.  

    Obviously, if you go to someone's seminary, it is a foregone conclusion that you share their positions, or what the hell are you doing there?  Using them for ordination?  Of course such seminarians who disagree with the official positions of the group whose seminary they attend should be dismissed!  If they aren't, you will have many repeat performances of the two sede priests who were ordained for the Society one day, and left with the 9 the next.

    Or should the Resistance seminaries accept seminarians who are all for rallying to unconverted Rome?
    I'm not saying I know what the answer is, but I can definitely foresee situations where someone changes their mind on one of these controversial issues while they're in seminary. Then what?


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Where’s the Vocations?
    « Reply #16 on: June 08, 2021, 07:42:16 PM »
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  • I suppose the fact that the Resistance never encourages vocations is certainly a factor.

    I have yet to see an Eleison Comments encouraging young men to try a vocation, though there are several explaining why seminaries are passe; there are no worthy candidates; the end is near; hunker down and forget about an SSPX2B; etc.

    Certainly that is cold water on the fire.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Where’s the Vocations?
    « Reply #17 on: June 08, 2021, 07:44:05 PM »
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  • I'm not saying I know what the answer is, but I can definitely foresee situations where someone changes their mind on one of these controversial issues while they're in seminary. Then what?
    If it is an enduring, persistent change, then they should leave (obviously).  
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Where’s the Vocations?
    « Reply #18 on: June 08, 2021, 10:37:10 PM »
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  • I don't think politics is the explanation.  

    Obviously, if you go to someone's seminary, it is a foregone conclusion that you share their positions, or what the hell are you doing there?  Using them for ordination?  Of course such seminarians who disagree with the official positions of the group whose seminary they attend should be dismissed!  If they aren't, you will have many repeat performances of the two sede priests who were ordained for the Society one day, and left with the 9 the next.

    Or should the Resistance seminaries accept seminarians who are all for rallying to unconverted Rome?
    Working inside the Conciliar Church is a matter of faith. If you work officially under the Pope's authority, you are accepting that error and truth can coexist. I see it as a matter of faith.
    Sedevacantism vs. Sedeplenism vs. R & R vs. Sededoubtism vs. whatever is a case of speculative theology.

    It is like if before Vatican I Bishops expelled seminarians because they didn't believe that the Pope was infallible. You simply can't treat speculative matters as if they were estabilished dogmas.
    That is exactly what Traditionalists groups do. For the SSPX, sedevacantists are worse than the Devil. For sedevacantists, R & R is not Catholic. And so on.

    I remember when Fr. Cardozo, a former Resistance Priest, now independent, allowed a sedevacantist Priest to say Mass in one of his chapels. He said "he is Catholic, he believes all the dogmas. I don't really care if we disagree about the Pope. It is not the most important thing." It sounds like a very reasonable line of thinking to me.

    It is a natural, human thing to love your little group and see everyone else as enemies, but in the end, you are depriving the faithful from receiving valid sacraments from Catholic Priests.
    I would very much like to see statistics about seminarians before Vatican II. I doubt that the "rate of success was so low.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Where’s the Vocations?
    « Reply #19 on: June 08, 2021, 11:22:41 PM »
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  • Trad groups always complain that God won’t solve the crisis, yet they argue amongst themselves, which makes the crisis worse.   


    Offline Minnesota

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    Re: Where’s the Vocations?
    « Reply #20 on: June 09, 2021, 02:35:34 AM »
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  • Trad groups always complain that God won’t solve the crisis, yet they argue amongst themselves, which makes the crisis worse.  
    Because at its core, the Traditional Catholic movement has become Protestantism without the theology. Why? The infighting and the division. 

    It may actually be worse, especially if/when certain things happen.
    Christ is Risen! He is risen indeed

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Where’s the Vocations?
    « Reply #21 on: June 09, 2021, 05:21:33 AM »
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  • St. John Bosco said every 3rd boy has a priestly or religious vocation.

    But I don’t see the fruits today.

    Clearly the grace flowing into the world is down to a trickle.  Most of it comes from the Mass and from prayers of the religious.  Without the True Mass and with the number of religious having plummeted, this comes as no surprise.  So I suspect that the 1 in 3 number is no longer true.  Either that or they aren’t receiving the actual grace to follow through.  

    I know you were promoting the idea that you can receive just as much grace from the NOM because the Mass is the Mass, but I disagreed.  Since God is not pleased with this “sacrifice,” little if any grace flows from it ... even if it’s valid.  NOM is regarded by God like Cain’s sacrifice was.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Where’s the Vocations?
    « Reply #22 on: June 09, 2021, 06:06:53 AM »
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  • It would be interesting to know how many started this class of 3.  In my year, we started with 21 and ended with 3.  My personal judgment was that 15-16 of the vocations were legitimate.

    Some of the dismissals were political.  It wasn’t enough [Sean] to be a Trad Catholic.  If you didn’t think like the regime in power in every way, you were at risk of dismissal.  Imagine the how the neo-SSPX might regard someone who thought like the Resistance.  He would likely not last long.  Or if you were a geo-centrist who objected to Fr. Robinson’s thinking.  Back in my day, you were suspect if you believed the Thomistic position that explicit faith in Christ and the Holy Trinity are necessary for salvation.  So, yes, tons of politics regarding questions that might rightly be disputed among Catholics.  I could go on for hours.  Heck, if you didn’t think like the French, you were considered suspect.  Remind me to relate the hilarious “showering” saga.

    Also, there’s a real problem with the type of priesthood the men might be called to.  In the pre-V2 days you had dozens of choices:  secular vs. religious, and then among the religious:  Dominican, Benedictine, Jesuit, etc. etc.  Church has always known that one style doesn’t fit everyone. But with most Trad groups there’s a single variation in the vocation.  I myself did not relish the prospect of the SSPX priestly lifestyle and probably would have felt more suited to being a Benedictine of Dominican ... or a more contemplative order.  I thrive in silence and would not have done well with the hustle and bustle of the mission priest lifestyle that nearly all Trad priests end up in.

    Yet the attitude of STAS was that if you’re not suited to the SSPX priestly lifestyle, then you have no vocation.  There was never any thought of “Maybe you have a vocation to be a Benedictine.” ... but rather, if you don’t relish being an SSPX priest then you have no vocation.

    I recall repeatedly thinking and even saying out loud that I wish there were a vocation to be a permanent seminarian ... where you prayed and studied in a quiet state of quasi-contemplation.  What I really had in mind without having been able to clarify the thought was a Benedictine or Dominican type of life.  I probably should have been steered toward that.  But they didn’t think that way at all there.

    So, the shower saga.  When we got there, we had to read the SSPX seminary rule.  There was a rule in there that you were supposed to shower once a week. This was a big sacrifice to most of us, who didn’t feel clean most days without a shower.  After a couple months, this got back to Bishop Williamson.  So he took a minute to clarify it during his weekly spiritual conference.  That rule was for the French and meant that you had to shower AT LEAST once a week, since a lot of them didn’t like to bathe often.  You could hear a collective sigh of relief.  That evening, the showers ran non-stop in my wing of the seminary for a couple hours.  No American would ever believe you had to mandate a weekly shower, that you would specify it in the rule unless it meant ONLY once a week.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Where’s the Vocations?
    « Reply #23 on: June 09, 2021, 06:43:48 AM »
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  • Clearly the grace flowing into the world is down to a trickle.  Most of it comes from the Mass and from prayers of the religious.  Without the True Mass and with the number of religious having plummeted, this comes as no surprise.  So I suspect that the 1 in 3 number is no longer true.  Either that or they aren’t receiving the actual grace to follow through.  

    I know you were promoting the idea that you can receive just as much grace from the NOM because the Mass is the Mass, but I disagreed.  Since God is not pleased with this “sacrifice,” little if any grace flows from it ... even if it’s valid.  NOM is regarded by God like Cain’s sacrifice was.

    Slight corrections:

    1) I said it is infallibly true from Trent that well-disposed communicants receive the transmission of sanctifying grace from the SACRAMENT, not the rites;

    Anyone who disputes that is a heretic;

    2) This pertains to the ignorant, because the knowing (ie., trads) will likely erect an obex gratiae to the transmission of grace were they to receive Communion at a NOM, knowing that rite to be displeasing to God (though whether that obex would completely block the grace of the sacrament (ie., whether the sin would be venial or mortal), I do not pretend to know.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Where’s the Vocations?
    « Reply #24 on: June 09, 2021, 06:48:09 AM »
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  • As I said in the other thread, you misread Trent.  In any case, let’s not derail.  Point is that less grace is entering the world partly in account of the NOM being displeasing to God.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Where’s the Vocations?
    « Reply #25 on: June 09, 2021, 06:48:21 AM »
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  • It would be interesting to know how many started this class of 3.  In my year, we started with 21 and ended with 3.  My personal judgment was that 15-16 of the vocations were legitimate.

    Some of the dismissals were political.  It wasn’t enough [Sean] to be a Trad Catholic.  If you didn’t think like the regime in power in every way, you were at risk of dismissal.  Imagine the how the neo-SSPX might regard someone who thought like the Resistance.  He would likely not last long.  Or if you were a geo-centrist who objected to Fr. Robinson’s thinking.  Back in my day, you were suspect if you believed the Thomistic position that explicit faith in Christ and the Holy Trinity are necessary for salvation.  So, yes, tons of politics regarding questions that might rightly be disputed among Catholics.  I could go on for hours.  Heck, if you didn’t think like the French, you were considered suspect.  Remind me to relate the hilarious “showering” saga.

    Also, there’s a real problem with the type of priesthood the men might be called to.  In the pre-V2 days you had dozens of choices:  secular vs. religious, and then among the religious:  Dominican, Benedictine, Jesuit, etc. etc.  Church has always known that one style doesn’t fit everyone. But with most Trad groups there’s a single variation in the vocation.  I myself did not relish the prospect of the SSPX priestly lifestyle and probably would have felt more suited to being a Benedictine of Dominican ... or a more contemplative order.  I thrive in silence and would not have done well with the hustle and bustle of the mission priest lifestyle that nearly all Trad priests end up in.

    Yet the attitude of STAS was that if you’re not suited to the SSPX priestly lifestyle, then you have no vocation.  There was never any thought of “Maybe you have a vocation to be a Benedictine.” ... but rather, if you don’t relish being an SSPX priest then you have no vocation.

    I recall repeatedly thinking and even saying out loud that I wish there were a vocation to be a permanent seminarian ... where you prayed and studied in a quiet state of quasi-contemplation.  What I really had in mind without having been able to clarify the thought was a Benedictine or Dominican type of life.  I probably should have been steered toward that.  But they didn’t think that way at all there.

    So, the shower saga.  When we got there, we had to read the SSPX seminary rule.  There was a rule in there that you were supposed to shower once a week. This was a big sacrifice to most of us, who didn’t feel clean most days without a shower.  After a couple months, this got back to Bishop Williamson.  So he took a minute to clarify it during his weekly spiritual conference.  That rule was for the French and meant that you had to shower AT LEAST once a week, since a lot of them didn’t like to bathe often.  You could hear a collective sigh of relief.  That evening, the showers ran non-stop in my wing of the seminary for a couple hours.  No American would ever believe you had to mandate a weekly shower, that you would specify it in the rule unless it meant ONLY once a week.
    Hmm.  Your time a STAS sounds very different than mine.  I recall Fr. Iscara (spiritual director) telling me he thought my vocation might be to Dominican life rather than the SSPX.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Where’s the Vocations?
    « Reply #26 on: June 09, 2021, 06:49:28 AM »
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  • As I said in the other thread, you misread Trent.  In any case, let’s not derail.  Point is that less grace is entering the world partly in account of the NOM being displeasing to God.
    30 pages of objections, but no refutations to back your claims.

    I clearly properly understand Trent, and you are a heretic who rejects it for political reasons (sede).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Where’s the Vocations?
    « Reply #27 on: June 09, 2021, 07:03:16 AM »
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  • The Consoling Sisters are having 11 postulants taking the habit next Friday on the Feast of the Sacred Heart (of which 10 are Americans) 
    ..and out of those 10, 4 are from the same family.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Where’s the Vocations?
    « Reply #28 on: June 09, 2021, 09:30:13 AM »
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  • 30 pages of objections, but no refutations to back your claims.

    I clearly properly understand Trent, and you are a heretic who rejects it for political reasons (sede).

    Understandng of the NOM has nothing to do with sedevacantism.  Pax and Stubborn are R&R, and they have a similar view of the NOM that I do.  Why do you insist on conflating things over and over again?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Where’s the Vocations?
    « Reply #29 on: June 09, 2021, 09:32:11 AM »
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  • Hmm.  Your time a STAS sounds very different than mine.  I recall Fr. Iscara (spiritual director) telling me he thought my vocation might be to Dominican life rather than the SSPX.

    Perhaps Fr. Iscara was different.  He was there after my time.  But there were a couple guys there in my day who felt inclined toward a monastic setting, and they were told outright that if they didn't have a vocation to be an SSPX priest, then they had no vocation at all.