Author Topic: When Does It Become A Mortal Sin To Refuse To Earn A Living? (Read 16670 times)

Steve · « **on:** December 31, 2024, 09:27:46 AM »

Spirago's Catechism Explained says on p 346-347 that the 3rd Commandment is a double commandment including the command to sanctify the Sunday and the command to work.

What if you willfully refuse to get a job - for more than a decade - and are able-bodied, able-minded and otherwise able, but you can't find a job that's 'worthy of you' and disdain service sector, etc. ...

...and choose instead to live at your parents expense - 100% - staying at their home, eating their food, paying for haircuts, gym membership, incidentals... with their credit card?*

I am referring to this objectively, not subjectively, i.e. not taking individual circuмstances, often unknowable by others, into account.

Isn't there a point where it goes beyond venial and becomes a mortal sin?

Spirago says that the precept of labor is transgressed:
1. By indulging in idleness
2. By the non- fulfillment of the duties of our station and calling.
3. By omitting to offer to God the work that is done.

I understand that Aquinas says something to the effect that it becomes a mortal sin when it passes from affective(?) awareness to intellectual self awareness and the person simply accepts or agrees with the sin even in an intellectual way.

What if they go so far in refusing to take work that they collaborate with a fake 'front company' organization that caters to this segment of the population and puts up a website with untraceable names and and vaguely worded sales overtures about 'technology' products and services with a fake 'country manager USA' after the unemployed person's name....along with many other 'country managers' of like kind for Brazil, U.K., etc?

*All presupposing the existence of an enabling parent(s) willing to facilitate the joblessness of their adult child because, "I'm okay with it." I think there may be an equally (or more?) grave moral issue here as well...again, objectively speaking

Viva Cristo Rey · « **Reply #1 on:** December 31, 2024, 11:28:23 AM »

It is mortal sin for a man to live off his parents when he can get any job to help them with bills of the house hold until he gets married.

The parents are in state of sin for enabling sloth.

Plenty of grand parents enabling grandchildren too by buying grand children cars when they don’t have jobs to pay for car insurance or registration. Messed up.

Fake company is fraud. It’s stealing which is mortal sin.

Parents and grandparents should be teaching the children and grandchildren the faith.

Seraphina · « **Reply #2 on:** December 31, 2024, 11:55:22 AM »

Given your description of the unemployed man, he’s obviously in mortal sin under many titles, sloth, theft, pride, disrespect and disobedience to parents, omission of duty, etc.

Being unemployed is not always a sin at all. Perhaps you got laid off and haven’t found another job yet, but are looking. Maybe you’re in school training for a job. A person may be unable to make a living because of infirmary, physical or mental, weakness of old age, employers will not hire because of things like old age, physical appearance or impediment that cannot be remedied. Sometimes there are just no jobs to be had in poverty stricken areas and the person cannot move and hasn’t the ability to start a business. Other times, a person lacks transportation to get to potential employers and no ability to work online. There ARE still places in the USA that do not have broadband or WiFi.

Whatever the legitimate reason for failure to earn a living, almost everyone can contribute something to society, even if only prayers. I shouldn’t say “only” because what is the job of contemplatives? How many souls are lost and people suffering due to loss of religious?
An able bodied person out of work can make it their job to find work, and in the meantime, do extra work around the house for friends and relatives. If there is no need, then assist the poor or less able.

The kind of life the OP describes sounds incredibly boring, imo!

MaterDominici · « **Reply #3 on:** December 31, 2024, 01:28:39 PM »

Quote from: Steve on December 31, 2024, 09:27:46 AM

What if they go so far in refusing to take work that they collaborate with a fake 'front company' organization that caters to this segment of the population and puts up a website with untraceable names and and vaguely worded sales overtures about 'technology' products and services with a fake 'country manager USA' after the unemployed person's name....along with many other 'country managers' of like kind for Brazil, U.K., etc?

Great question. I look forward to reading responses.
In the meantime, tell me, what's the objective with this part? If the parents are willing to enable, why the deception?

Steve · « **Reply #4 on:** December 31, 2024, 01:58:04 PM »

Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey on December 31, 2024, 11:28:23 AM

It is mortal sin for a man to live off his parents when he can get any job to help them with bills of the house hold until he gets married.

The parents are in state of sin for enabling sloth.

Plenty of grand parents enabling grandchildren too by buying grand children cars when they don’t have jobs to pay for car insurance or registration. Messed up.

Fake company is fraud. It’s stealing which is mortal sin.

Parents and grandparents should be teaching the children and grandchildren the faith.

Thank you Viva!

This is a common sense response rooted in Catholic sensibility.

As I mentioned, I am hoping to answer the objective case, which your response does. And yes, I do think this has its roots in parents and grandparents not teaching - at least by example if not by word - the Faith.

Sadly, I think the situation represents a tangible manifestation of how Novus Ordo wrecks, over time, any real Faith people may have at the outset: I forgot to mention that they are N.O. Catholics that regularly attend N.O. Mass.

Steve · « **Reply #5 on:** December 31, 2024, 02:07:28 PM »

Quote from: Seraphina on December 31, 2024, 11:55:22 AM

Given your description of the unemployed man, he’s obviously in mortal sin under many titles, sloth, theft, pride, disrespect and disobedience to parents, omission of duty, etc.

Being unemployed is not always a sin at all. Perhaps you got laid off and haven’t found another job yet, but are looking. Maybe you’re in school training for a job. A person may be unable to make a living because of infirmary, physical or mental, weakness of old age, employers will not hire because of things like old age, physical appearance or impediment that cannot be remedied. Sometimes there are just no jobs to be had in poverty stricken areas and the person cannot move and hasn’t the ability to start a business. Other times, a person lacks transportation to get to potential employers and no ability to work online. There ARE still places in the USA that do not have broadband or WiFi.

Whatever the legitimate reason for failure to earn a living, almost everyone can contribute something to society, even if only prayers. I shouldn’t say “only” because what is the job of contemplatives? How many souls are lost and people suffering due to loss of religious?
An able bodied person out of work can make it their job to find work, and in the meantime, do extra work around the house for friends and relatives. If there is no need, then assist the poor or less able.

The kind of life the OP describes sounds incredibly boring, imo!

Thank you Seraphina!

I think this must be true: mortal sin (at least objectively) under many titles. Filial piety included.

And your caveats are all important ones... really appreciate the suggestions about what they could be doing while they are out of work, including if there isn't a need around the house.

Spirago says that all are duty bound regardless of age to work in some fashion or another (I know this does not mean you can retire from your office job, trade, etc at an appropriate age/time) as long as they can still work in SOME way.

Even if, as you say, it's "just" praying. ( Perhaps more is being done to hold off the globalists 'plans' by devout retired men and women doing holy hours) than the most vigorous younger man's efforts to reform the local school board)

Steve · « **Reply #6 on:** December 31, 2024, 02:21:13 PM »

Quote from: MaterDominici on December 31, 2024, 01:28:39 PM

Great question. I look forward to reading responses.
In the meantime, tell me, what's the objective with this part? If the parents are willing to enable, why the deception?

Ah! Yes, it's dumbfounding on the face of it: why one would go to such lengths?

I suppose a reservation must be kept that perhaps it's not 100% fraud... but there is a long history of such deceptions... and this is a key reason for posting: the gaslighting is so thorough that you're inclined to check yourself sometimes to make sure you're not being rash. In charity, maybe he's a secret agent and to let anyone know why 'he hasn't been working' ( wink wink) is that this would blow his cover?

Another guess would be that it's a faint handhold for purposes of resume burnishing in the (highly doubtful) case that the person is seriously looking for work... but note, work exclusively in 'high tech' .

But, to our knowledge, it's been more than 10 years that person has worked in any sector, indeed going on 15 years.

It's possible that there is a level of narcissism involved too, and if you know anything about this condition, a positive image is everything. So it's probably...gaslighting.

Kolar · « **Reply #7 on:** January 01, 2025, 05:56:57 AM »

Obviously the family has sufficient money. Why should he labor to earn money that is not needed? Just to build up a bank account. What is the point in that? I suspect that dying with a lot of money in the bank will prevent you from going straight to heaven. I don't see why it is a sin at all. There is no commandment: Thou shalt support a capitalist with your labor. And is it not a rash judgment to say he is idle? Do we know how he spends his time? It seems that he does assist at Sunday Mass, we can probably assume that he also prays the rosary.
It seems to me that you are taking too much interest in what this man is doing. How is it your business? Trying to find someone guilty of sin seems to me to be something you will have to answer for at your particular judgment.

Viva Cristo Rey · « **Reply #8 on:** January 01, 2025, 05:00:17 PM »

Steve · « **Reply #9 on:** January 01, 2025, 06:01:46 PM »

Quote from: Kolar on January 01, 2025, 05:56:57 AM

Obviously the family has sufficient money. Why should he labor to earn money that is not needed? Just to build up a bank account. What is the point in that? I suspect that dying with a lot of money in the bank will prevent you from going straight to heaven. I don't see why it is a sin at all. There is no commandment: Thou shalt support a capitalist with your labor. And is it not a rash judgment to say he is idle? Do we know how he spends his time? It seems that he does assist at Sunday Mass, we can probably assume that he also prays the rosary.
It seems to me that you are taking too much interest in what this man is doing. How is it your business? Trying to find someone guilty of sin seems to me to be something you will have to answer for at your particular judgment.

Really appreciate coming at this more from the direction of tolerance, understanding and empathy rather than the opposite - this is one of the reasons for posting - thank you!

I apologize also for appearing to change the proposed case from the objective to a more subjective one by adding unnecessary details; the original intent was to solicit the response for the more general objective case where there's no circuмspection involved.

Let's return to that more clear cut case and ask again, when, if ever, does chronic unemployment - without any excusing factors - objectively speaking, become a sin, possibly even mortal?

Or is this a strictly temporal phenomenon without eternal/moral consequences beyond St Paul's admonition, "...if any man will not work, neither let him eat." 2 Th 3:10, " ? *

Spirago has some other fine Bible references on this, but I was wondering if there is also any notable teaching from Church Fathers, ref. the capital sins, etc about moral culpability for not working (either physical or intellectual labor).

I am pretty sure we don't need an 11th Commandment exclusive to work to know that not working is contrary to God's Will, and any true friend of such a person would be conscience bound to offer fraternal correction in the pattern recommended by St Paul ("And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more..." Matt 18, 16)...

... but when does it become a sin, and more importantly when does it become mortally sinful?

*Disregarding also, for the moment, the previous reference to the double commandment inherent in the 3rd Commandment, i.e., "Six days shalt thou labor...but on the seventh day is the sabbath..." etc. Ex. XX 8-9.

"Ora et labora"

- St Benedict

Geremia · « **Reply #10 on:** January 01, 2025, 06:10:44 PM »

Quote from: Kolar on January 01, 2025, 05:56:57 AM

There is no commandment: Thou shalt support a capitalist with your labor.

Capitalism itself is condemned: Pius XI, Quadragesimo anno.

Also, ch. 6 of The Kingship of Christ and The Conversion of the Jєωιѕн Nation:

Quote from: Fr. Denis Fahey, C.S.Sp.

Alexander III (1159-1181) forbade Christians, under severe penalties, to enter the service of Jews for any lengthy period or to become domestic servants in their households’ ‘ They ought not,’ he wrote, ‘to serve Jews for pay in permanent fashion.’ The same Pontiff explains the reason for this prohibition as follows: ‘Our ways of life and those of the Jews are utterly different, and Jews will easily pervert the souls of simple folk to their superstition and unbelief, if such folk are living in continual and intimate intercourse with them.’

Geremia · « **Reply #11 on:** January 01, 2025, 06:12:34 PM »

A just society/economy would honor 2Thes 3:10:

Quote from: St. Paul

if any man will not work, neither let him eat.

Steve · « **Reply #12 on:** January 01, 2025, 06:25:14 PM »

Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey on January 01, 2025, 05:00:17 PM

Yes! This is what I am talking about!
Our posts must have crossed in the ether, thank you Viva!

Right, these are additional authoritative quotes from the Bible in support of the objective sin of not working.

Dr. Laura of old had no trouble cutting to the chase on callers who talked about friends and family members dealing with issues, she would just attack it directly and say, "You mean he's/she's a bum, right?"

(Many thought - at times rightly IMO - that Dr. Laura was too harsh, but often she was right on the mark: we all know what a bum is. It's just ferreting out the finer points of the subjective situations that is not easy, sometimes impossible)

Kolar · « **Reply #13 on:** January 01, 2025, 06:44:00 PM »

I concede that he has to work. But the question asked is it a sin to refuse to earn a living? That is do I need to be gainfully employed? Which is a specific type of work. If he doesn't need the gain why should he be gainfully employed? The work environment is not conducive to the salvation of a soul. Whenever we go into the world and a worldly environment we risk committing sin, we associate often with bad companions, hear vulgar talk, hear immoral talk, and if there are women in the shop, and there usually are in modern society, often there is immodesty and more occasions of sin. If a man has responsibilities and needs to provide for a family he needs to be gainfully employed and earn a living. But if he has no dependents and his needs are provided for why should he spend hours every day in an office or factory or something of the sort? Why earn a living if you already have a living?

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #14 on:** January 01, 2025, 06:47:06 PM »

Quote

Spirago's Catechism Explained says on p 346-347 that the 3rd Commandment is a double commandment including the command to sanctify the Sunday and the command to work.

Playing the devil's advocate here...

This entire debate depends on how you define 'work'. The modern notion of 'work' means that people do a job to earn $. Mostly, because they have to HAVE to take such a job, to survive. This definition of 'work' is protestant. It comes from Calvanism (which is the current, protestant heresy known as "prosperity gospel"). Calvin also gave us the false phrases of "time is money" and "cleanliness is next to godliness" etc.

But the classical, medieval notion of 'work' has nothing to do with earning a paycheck. There were thousands of catholic monks who did extraordinary work, but who earned $0. The classical notion of work is 'to put your talents to use for society and God'.

There's no use in wasting time on an empty job if you can do something more meaningful. A guy who works 50 hours a week at a gas station to support his family is doing his duty. A guy who spends 50 hours a week painting holy pictures or donating his time at a soup kitchen is also doing a duty. The protestant would say that the gas station worker is 'useful' while the 2nd guy is 'wasting his time'.

But the catholic notion is that God determines the value of time by the heart/mind of each individual, as it gives glory to Him...the value of time is not determined by how the WORLD sees "usefulness".

Quote

There is no commandment: Thou shalt support a capitalist with your labor. And is it not a rash judgment to say he is idle? Do we know how he spends his time? It seems that he does assist at Sunday Mass, we can probably assume that he also prays the rosary.

Exactly.

Most people who have $ and don't need to work, have a higher calling from God. Not necessarily a 'higher calling' in the religious sense, but a calling to use that $ (or their time) to "give back". History is filled with Catholic saints who were kings or queens and used their money to build monasteries, schools, etc. Lesser known individuals who owned very successful businesses have contributed to the church in countless ways, by donations, etc. Most of the incredible art, statues, etc that are in Rome/St Peter's were done at the request of wealthy individuals. Or they were donated to the Church by wealthy people.

The love of money is the root of all evil, not money itself.

People who have lots of money have a unique situation in the eyes of God. They don't need to 'work' like the rest of us. They have the obligation to a unique work, outside of capitalism and daily duties.

Author Topic: When Does It Become A Mortal Sin To Refuse To Earn A Living? (Read 16670 times)

Steve

When Does It Become A Mortal Sin To Refuse To Earn A Living?

Viva Cristo Rey

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Seraphina

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MaterDominici

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Steve

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Steve

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Steve

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Kolar

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Viva Cristo Rey

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Steve

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Geremia

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Geremia

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Steve

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Kolar

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Pax Vobis

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