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Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Croix de Fer on June 23, 2018, 06:05:38 PM

Title: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Croix de Fer on June 23, 2018, 06:05:38 PM
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Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Croix de Fer on June 23, 2018, 07:18:22 PM
This attitude of women, also, applies to their stance on prenups and their demand for a State marriage license, while they ignore the fact that true marriage is still conferred by the Church and seen by the Eyes of God, absent a State marriage license.

I've said it before, and I'll say it, again, women's opposition to prenups isn't truly premised off of Catholic teaching and tradition, but rather a distorted, social-engineered, ingrained, feminist ego to resist anything that neutralizes her position over men.

A woman who rejects a prenup is an ominous sign that she will be disobedient to her husband after they get married, and that will be the LEAST of his problems.
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Jaynek on June 23, 2018, 07:29:32 PM
This attitude of women, also, applies to their stance on prenups and their demand for a State marriage license, while they ignore the fact that true marriage is still conferred by the Church and seen by the Eyes of God, absent a State marriage license.

I've said it before, and I'll say it, again, women's opposition to prenups isn't truly premised off of Catholic teaching and tradition, but rather a distorted, social-engineered, ingrained, feminist ego to resist anything that neutralizes her position over men.

A woman who rejects a prenup is an ominous sign that she will be disobedient to her husband after they get married, and that will be the LEAST of his problems.
No doubt you will say it again and again, but it does not get any more true no matter how many times you repeat it.

There are legitimate concerns that planning what one will do in the case of divorce is not compatible with the Catholic teaching that divorce is never an option.  Unable to address these concerns, you make up motives that you attribute to those who oppose prenups. There is no basis whatsoever for your claims.
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Pax Vobis on June 23, 2018, 08:08:00 PM
Croix, can you give an example of what your prenup would say?  Maybe if we all read it, we could make a more informed decision.  

Secondly, you keep saying that women who refuse one are x, y, z.  Ok, but how many women (trad catholic) do you know who have refused one?  I’ve never even heard of the topic being brought up, in trad catholic circles.  

Obviously there are many women “of the world” who have been offered one, and refused, but they live by different rules than true Catholics.  
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Croix de Fer on June 23, 2018, 08:12:33 PM
Quote
Jewnek says:
Unable to address these concerns, you make up motives that you attribute to those who oppose prenups. There is no basis whatsoever for your claims.
You just described your own maneuvering the whole time and projected onto me. I've given plenty of facts (basis) for my claims.

Facts:
1) Courts exponentially favor women over men; and courts are subversive & legislate from the bench
2) There is a much higher probability of "divorce" than a marriage lasting "until death do us part"
3) When these "divorces" occur, the courts give the equity & houses to women, and women are given at least half of all other assets, wealth and savings, despite the man acquiring & building all of it or having owned it before they even got married.
4) "Trad Catholics" are not immune to the epidemic of "divorces". Plenty of "divorces" among trads.

Nothing you proposed about what Catholics should do is a true aegis (insurance plan or defense) for men to protect themselves from women preying on everything men built and acquired on their own. One of human conditions the Catholic Church warns us about is people failing what they should do, and teaching us to take measures to protect ourselves from the enemy - spiritual or temporal - who do the opposite of what they should do

Thus, the only viable option to protect men, who are considering marriage, is to get a prenup (and, even better, to reject getting a State marriage license).  

Nothing you have proposed is a solution to protect men. Everything you have stated is based off of a Catholic utopia that doesn't exist, nor will it ever exist, before Christ returns and establishes His Heavenly kingdom on earth. But that's what (you) Jews are good at, right? They draft up those utopias and sell them to gullible people. Look at communism, socialism, "social justice", "equality", etc. They offer no real solutions to help or protect people, rather they subject them to more deceit & ills.

Quote
Jewnek says:
No doubt you will say it again and again, but it does not get any more true no matter how many times you repeat it.
Ain't no stopping the truth.


Quote
Jewnek says:
There are legitimate concerns that planning what one will do in the case of divorce is not compatible with the Catholic teaching that divorce is never an option.
Another subjective opinion with no substance justifying the rejection of prenups. You haven't posted one Catholic citation to support your argument.



Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Pax Vobis on June 23, 2018, 08:28:15 PM

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There are legitimate concerns that planning what one will do in the case of divorce is not compatible with the Catholic teaching that divorce is never an option. 
You’re not distinguishing between CIVIL divorce (which the church allows in certain circumstances) and divorce/re-marriage, which is never allowed.  

God tells us that murder is a grave offense.  Does that mean it doesn’t happen?  Does that mean we shouldn’t take precautions to protect ourselves in dangerous situations?  

God tells us that divorce/theft/re-marriage is a grave offense.  Does that mean it doesn’t happen?  Does that mean we shouldn’t take precautions to protect oneself from this evil?

If one commits the sin of murder the state steps in and sends the person to jail, as they should.  Also, people have the right to self-defense and the right to kill one who is threatening their life. 

If one commits the sin of divorce (assuming it's not Church sanctioned, which should be rare), the state does NOT step in and help achieve justice; they promote and encourage injustice and mockery of a sacrament and a contract.  Does the spouse who is being divorced unjustly not have a right to self-defense and a protection of what is rightly theirs?

In the same way that guns/weapons deter criminals and promote safety, one could argue that a prenup could deter a temptation to destroy a marriage, which would be a great thing, and could ensure that spouses “work out their differences” and thus save them from hell.  
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Marlelar on June 23, 2018, 08:30:54 PM
 :facepalm:
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Ladislaus on June 23, 2018, 08:36:59 PM
No doubt you will say it again and again, but it does not get any more true no matter how many times you repeat it.

There are legitimate concerns that planning what one will do in the case of divorce is not compatible with the Catholic teaching that divorce is never an option.  Unable to address these concerns, you make up motives that you attribute to those who oppose prenups. There is no basis whatsoever for your claims.

I can see this both ways.  Civil divorces do not exist in the eyes of God and of the Church, but there could be cases of separation as permitted under the circumstances allowed by the Church (adultery, abuse, etc.) ... which could result also in a civil divorce for various legal and economic reasons.
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Jaynek on June 23, 2018, 08:40:10 PM
You’re not distinguishing between CIVIL divorce (which the church allows in certain circumstances) and divorce/re-marriage, which is never allowed.  

God tells us that murder is a grave offense.  Does that mean it doesn’t happen?  Does that mean we shouldn’t take precautions to protect ourselves in dangerous situations?  

God tells us that divorce/theft/re-marriage is a grave offense.  Does that mean it doesn’t happen?  Does that mean we shouldn’t take precautions to protect oneself from this evil?

If one commits the sin of murder the state steps in and sends the person to jail, as they should.  Also, people have the right to self-defense and the right to kill one who is threatening their life.

If one commits the sin of divorce (assuming it's not Church sanctioned, which should be rare), the state does NOT step in and help achieve justice; they promote and encourage injustice and mockery of a sacrament and a contract.  Does the spouse who is being divorced unjustly not have a right to self-defense and a protection of what is rightly theirs?

In the same way that guns/weapons deter criminals and promote safety, one could argue that a prenup could deter a temptation to destroy a marriage, which would be a great thing, and could ensure that spouses “work out their differences” and thus save them from hell. 
We don't actually know that a prenup deters temptation.  It is just as possible that a couple would hit a rough spot in their marriage and the prenup would make divorce seem like a better option. 

And how does one know at the time of the prenup which spouse will be divorce unjustly and need protection?
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Croix de Fer on June 23, 2018, 08:47:10 PM
Croix, can you give an example of what your prenup would say?  Maybe if we all read it, we could make a more informed decision. 

It's simple. A woman gets absolutely nothing in the wake of a "divorce" she files against her husband. No house, no assets, no wealth, no car, no savings account. Also, barring any provable threat to the safety of their children, the kids stay with him.

The only thing she keeps is what the husband gave her in the marriage.  He shouldn't take anything back that he gave or bought for her. "Benedict Arnolds" are no good.
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Pax Vobis on June 23, 2018, 08:53:13 PM

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We don't actually know that a prenup deters temptation.  

If it was written properly, it could.


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It is just as possible that a couple would hit a rough spot in their marriage and the prenup would make divorce seem like a better option. 
In Croix's example, assuming that the Church did not authorize a CIVIL divorce for the valid reasons of violence/cheating, then if the spouse who sought the sinful divorce was not rewarded with financial assets, this would no doubt deter one from exiting the marriage for frivolous reasons.


Quote
And how does one know at the time of the prenup which spouse will be divorce unjustly and need protection?
Duh, you don't.  It would be written equally to the benefit/protection of both spouses.
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Jaynek on June 23, 2018, 08:58:17 PM
I can see this both ways.  Civil divorces do not exist in the eyes of God and of the Church, but there could be cases of separation as permitted under the circumstances allowed by the Church (adultery, abuse, etc.) ... which could result also in a civil divorce for various legal and economic reasons.
I could imagine a prenup being written that specifically said that it only applied to civil divorce and that the couple would still be married in the eyes of God.  That would address my main objection.
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Jaynek on June 23, 2018, 09:01:04 PM
Duh, you don't.  It would be written equally to the benefit/protection of both spouses.
Could you be more specific, please?  I cannot think of how to do that.
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Pax Vobis on June 23, 2018, 09:05:55 PM
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I could imagine a prenup being written that specifically said that it only applied to civil divorce and that the couple would still be married in the eyes of God. 
I don't mean to be rude, but this should have been obvious from the start of this whole discussion.  There's nothing that a prenup could do to change a sacrament.  The entire conversation is based around the notion that civil divorces are financially unjust to men.  It has nothing to do with the sacrament, or with promoting re-marriage.  The purpose of a prenup is to prevent court-approved, unjust theft from men, should a woman initiate a sinful divorce.  It would also include language which would deter men from spousal abuse and cheating and if a woman was given a church-approved reason to separate from her husband due to violence, then she would be financially taken care of.
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Ladislaus on June 23, 2018, 09:06:40 PM
I could imagine a prenup being written that specifically said that it only applied to civil divorce and that the couple would still be married in the eyes of God.  That would address my main objection.

Well, that's all it COULD apply to is civil divorce.  Let's say one of the couple becomes abusive and they separate as permitted by the Church.  Would it be necessarily bad to pursue civil divorce to protect the abused party from the other legally and financially?  I don't see it ... so long as any risk of scandal is avoided.
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Jaynek on June 23, 2018, 09:30:36 PM
You just described your own maneuvering the whole time and projected onto me. I've given plenty of facts (basis) for my claims.

The motives you attribute to people who are opposed to prenups are not facts.  They are something that you have fabricated from your imagination.

Facts:
1) Courts exponentially favor women over men; and courts are subversive & legislate from the bench
2) There is a much higher probability of "divorce" than a marriage lasting "until death do us part"
3) When these "divorces" occur, the courts give the equity & houses to women, and women are given at least half of all other assets, wealth and savings, despite the man acquiring & building all of it or having owned it before they even got married.
4) "Trad Catholics" are not immune to the epidemic of "divorces". Plenty of "divorces" among trads.
I agree with these and accept them as facts.

Nothing you proposed about what Catholics should do is a true aegis (insurance plan or defense) for men to protect themselves from women preying on everything men built and acquired on their own. One of human conditions the Catholic Church warns us about is people failing what they should do, and teaching us to take measures to protect ourselves from the enemy - spiritual or temporal - who do the opposite of what they should do

Thus, the only viable option to protect men, who are considering marriage, is to get a prenup (and, even better, to reject getting a State marriage license).  

Nothing you have proposed is a solution to protect men. Everything you have stated is based off of a Catholic utopia that doesn't exist, nor will it ever exist, before Christ returns and establishes His Heavenly kingdom on earth. But that's what (you) Jews are good at, right? They draft up those utopias and sell them to gullible people. Look at communism, socialism, "social justice", "equality", etc. They offer no real solutions to help or protect people, rather they subject them to more deceit & ills.
Ain't no stopping the truth.

Another subjective opinion with no substance justifying the rejection of prenups. You haven't posted one Catholic citation to support your argument.

I know that marriage without divorce is possible, not because of utopian beliefs, but because I have been married for 38 years.  I know, from personal experience, that the main thing that prevents divorce is the determination never to resort to divorce.  If a person as sinful and flawed as I am can manage to remain married, then it is possible for just about anybody.

I have a lot of sympathy for men as they face so much injustice around marriage, but I don't see going into marriage expecting to get divorced as a good solution.  I also see your emphasis on protecting men as problematic since it is difficult to reconcile with the Catholic understanding of marriage, shown in a passage in Ephesians 5.

Right after a verse that says a wife must obey her husband, we see:

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it.

Our Lord did not protect himself.  He gave His life for the Church.  And that is the model for the husband's relationship the wife.
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Jaynek on June 23, 2018, 09:43:52 PM
I don't mean to be rude, but this should have been obvious from the start of this whole discussion.  There's nothing that a prenup could do to change a sacrament.  The entire conversation is based around the notion that civil divorces are financially unjust to men.  It has nothing to do with the sacrament, or with promoting re-marriage.  The purpose of a prenup is to prevent court-approved, unjust theft from men, should a woman initiate a sinful divorce.  It would also include language which would deter men from spousal abuse and cheating and if a woman was given a church-approved reason to separate from her husband due to violence, then she would be financially taken care of.
There is no Catholic tradition of prenups.  It is a secular custom, usually employed by people with a secular (i.e. false) understanding of marriage.  It is not at all obvious how this custom could be incorporated into Catholic marriage. 

A Catholic prenup would need to explicitly protect the Sacrament of Matrimony, something that is already under attack in many ways. It cannot be assumed as a given.

What you suggest above sounds reasonable.
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Croix de Fer on June 23, 2018, 09:46:17 PM
Quote
I also see your emphasis on protecting men as problematic since it is difficult to reconcile with the Catholic understanding of marriage, shown in a passage in Ephesians 5.

Right after a verse that says a wife must obey her husband, we see:

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it.

Our Lord did not protect himself.  He gave His life for the Church.  And that is the model for the husband's relationship the wife.
This is a horrible comparison of Christ's fidelity to the Church, who keeps His commandments, and expecting man to remain in fidelity to a woman who "divorces" him for financial gain and to be "free". In case you don't know, Christ has no fidelity to people outside the Catholic Church. A woman who "divorces" a man is analogous to the people who reject Christ and abandon the Church. In denying Christ, and when they stand before Him during judgement, He'll tell them, "Depart from Me, I never knew you".


Quote
but I don't see going into marriage expecting to get divorced as a good solution.
If men expected to get "divorced", they wouldn't get married. No man gets married knowing it'll ultimately end in divorce, especially when the court system is so hostile to men by awarding almost everything to women, regardless of fault or reason for the divorce. But it's prudent for him to have a prenup in case the unfortunate event of divorce arises, considering the epidemic of divorces in these latter days.


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 If a person as sinful and flawed as I am can manage to remain married, then it is possible for just about anybody.
Of course it's possible, but the unfortunate reality is it's rare. Men must protect themselves from women seeking divorce as a means to steal everything he owns & built.




Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Jaynek on June 23, 2018, 09:53:59 PM
This is a horrible comparison of Christ's fidelity to the Church, who keeps His commandments, and expecting man to remain in fidelity to a woman who "divorces" him for financial gain and to be "free". In case you don't know, Christ has no fidelity to people outside the Catholic Church. A woman who "divorces" a man is analogous to the people who reject Christ and abandon the Church. In denying Christ, and when they stand before Him during judgement, He'll tell them, "Depart from Me, I never knew you".
The prenup does not take place after a divorce. It is a man being unwilling to give himself up for the woman he is marrying.  He is placing protecting himself as his first priority.  It is not following the Scriptural teaching on the husband's role.
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Pax Vobis on June 23, 2018, 09:58:34 PM
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Of course it's possible, but the unfortunate reality is it's rare.
It's rare for non-trad catholics because they don't have the grace of a sacramental marriage.  Still, they have plenty of actual graces to fulfill their marriages because God will not permit one to be tempted beyond their strength.




Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Pax Vobis on June 23, 2018, 10:05:10 PM
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Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it.
No one is obligated to give their money to a robber and accept a beating from a violent criminal.  They are allowed to protect themselves.  Men are not obligated to allow their wives to steal from them nor take their children from them through the unjust and anti-catholic court system.  Spiritual love does NOT condone sin.  Therefore, men are not obligated to support their wives who sinfully destroy a marriage.

Men are obligated to support their wives and children, as they see fit, according to their conscience, and they will be judged EXTREMELY harshly by God on the judgement day.  The court system should not be involved, except in cases of violence.

Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Croix de Fer on June 23, 2018, 10:13:29 PM
The prenup does not take place after a divorce. It is a man being unwilling to give himself up for the woman he is marrying.  He is placing protecting himself as his first priority.  It is not following the Scriptural teaching on the husband's role.
Wrong analysis. The man does, indeed, want to give himself up (sacrifice himself) to the woman whom he thinks he's marrying. However, when the woman files for "divorce", she truly isn't the woman whom the man loved. That person was a facade. The prenup protects himself from being sacrificed for the real (insidious) woman who hid her true nature or, for whatever reason, changed and became something monstrous during the marriage.
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Matthew on June 23, 2018, 11:02:20 PM
I see no problem whatsoever with this thread.

A very interesting discussion.

Carry on.
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Croix de Fer on June 23, 2018, 11:06:34 PM
I see no problem whatsoever with this thread.

A very interesting discussion.

Carry on.

Regarding your comment about "Manosphere", "Red Pill", etc. on the other thread you locked, I've never been to those sites. I've never read their material. I really know nothing about them except for hearing people mention their names only a few times.
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Matthew on June 23, 2018, 11:16:13 PM
Regarding your comment about "Manosphere", "Red Pill", etc. on the other thread you locked, I've never been to those sites. I've never read their material. I really know nothing about them except for hearing people mention their names only a few times.

You've denied this before, but you must be a frequent consumer/poster of similar content on other sites. The so-called "Man-o-sphere" is a network of sites on the Internet dedicated to opposing feminism, bringing back true masculinity, teaching men how to live and thrive in today's world, etc.

From what I've seen of such sites, they are A) predominantly non-Catholic, B) they only give lip service to those who are seeking a monogamous relationship ("these techniques can be used to get that life-long partner, if that's what you're after...") but C) most of the men there are worldly/neo-pagan, and are seeking to use, abuse, play with, and throw away women in a sort of bitter, anger-fueled revenge spree. They seek to learn the true psychology of male/female relationships in order to exploit it for their own perverted sexual exploits.

They have some truth (which makes their doctrine attractive) but a LOT of error, and certainly the wrong spirit (bitterness, complete distrust and hatred of women, etc.)

I've visited such sites on occasion -- mostly out of curiosity or when I had lots of free time -- and you sound *exactly* like them. You use all the slang terms (MGTOW, LARP, beta/alpha male, incel, etc.)

I'm sure there's a lot of crossover between such anti-feminist quarters of the Net and white supremacist sites, for example. Why wouldn't a bunch of white supremacists be against feminism and looking out for themselves? In fact, I'd be surprised if they weren't!
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Croix de Fer on June 23, 2018, 11:30:15 PM
You've denied this before, but you must be a frequent consumer/poster of similar content on other sites. The so-called "Man-o-sphere" is a network of sites on the Internet dedicated to opposing feminism, bringing back true masculinity, teaching men how to live and thrive in today's world, etc.

[...]

I've visited such sites on occasion -- mostly out of curiosity or when I had lots of free time -- and you sound *exactly* like them. You use all the slang terms (MGTOW, LARP, beta/alpha male, incel, etc.)

I'm sure there's a lot of crossover between such anti-feminist quarters of the Net and white supremacist sites, for example. Why wouldn't a bunch of white supremacists be against feminism and looking out for themselves? In fact, I'd be surprised if they weren't!
Yeah, I've been to only a few other sites where people do use those terms (soy boy, LARP, alpha/beta males, etc.), but these same sites have actually criticized MGTOW and the "manosphere", too. I've actually heard "manosphere" more than just a few times (to correct what I said earlier about that word specifically). I thought you were talking about a particular site rather than the general term for a network of like-minded men discussing issues impacting men. I've never heard of the site "Red Pill".




Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: MaterDominici on June 24, 2018, 12:45:54 AM
It's simple. A woman gets absolutely nothing in the wake of a "divorce" she files against her husband. No house, no assets, no wealth, no car, no savings account. Also, barring any provable threat to the safety of their children, the kids stay with him.

The only thing she keeps is what the husband gave her in the marriage.  He shouldn't take anything back that he gave or bought for her. "Benedict Arnolds" are no good.
You're going to have to do better than that. If he commits adultery an she exercises her right to leave as permitted by the Church, she should have the right to take her children with her.
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Croix de Fer on June 24, 2018, 01:53:19 AM
You're going to have to do better than that. If he commits adultery an she exercises her right to leave as permitted by the Church, she should have the right to take her children with her.

Yes, if his adultery is provable, then she can exercise her rights as permitted by the Church, and carry out whatever is written out in the prenuptial agreement regarding spousal adultery (committed by the husband or wife), if it were to occur.

The problem with NOT having a prenup is a woman can "divorce" a man for no reason at all, and steal everything for which he's worked & built.
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Jaynek on June 24, 2018, 09:48:46 AM
Men are obligated to support their wives and children, as they see fit, according to their conscience, and they will be judged EXTREMELY harshly by God on the judgement day.  The court system should not be involved, except in cases of violence.
So if a man decides to abandon his wife and children, leaving to fend for themselves, nobody should intervene?  The children can be left to starve because we know the man will face a harsh punishment after he dies?

This seems neither just nor practical.  I don't see it as any improvement over the current, admittedly unfair, treatment of men.
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Jaynek on June 24, 2018, 09:58:02 AM
Wrong analysis. The man does, indeed, want to give himself up (sacrifice himself) to the woman whom he thinks he's marrying. However, when the woman files for "divorce", she truly isn't the woman whom the man loved. That person was a facade. The prenup protects himself from being sacrificed for the real (insidious) woman who hid her true nature or, for whatever reason, changed and became something monstrous during the marriage.
You are apparently assuming that there no good reasons for a woman to file for a civil divorce and that it only happens because the wife is evil and wants to steal the man's money. 

Back before there was "no-fault divorce" people had to prove there was a good reason for a divorce and it was harder to take advantage of the system.  You seem to want to use a prenup to compensate for the problems caused by "no-fault divorce".  I think that a better solution is get rid of no-fault divorce.
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Ladislaus on June 24, 2018, 11:14:52 AM
I've visited such sites on occasion -- mostly out of curiosity or when I had lots of free time -- and you sound *exactly* like them. You use all the slang terms (MGTOW, LARP, beta/alpha male, incel, etc.)

You have that exactly right.  Croix has spent too much time interacting with these types.  Yet their views of what constitutes an "alpha" male are not Catholic.  These would classify Our Lord as a "beta" because He turned the other cheek.  This worldly notion of alpha would have males dominate, use, and abuse women for their pleasure and never give in to them on anything and refuse to sacrifice anything for them.  Men who help women around the house or help with the children are derided as betas.  Most of their iconic alphas are in fact betas in the Catholic sense because they are dominated and controlled by their passions and lust in their domination and use of women.  TRUE CATHOLIC ALPHAS are those whose higher faculties are in complete control of their lower faculties, who have mastery over themselves rather than over others.  Catholic alphas do not exert themselves and their own rights; they exert God and the rights of God and stand firm for God, not themselves.
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Smedley Butler on June 24, 2018, 12:28:35 PM
Exactly. 

And all those non-Catholic beta males on those sites are only interested in self preservation.

That is what makes any discussion of prenups illicit and pointless: it's about self preservation.


Whereas Catholic marriage is about dying to self.
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Pax Vobis on June 24, 2018, 04:36:35 PM

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So if a man decides to abandon his wife and children, leaving to fend for themselves, nobody should intervene?  

Nobody ever said this.


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The children can be left to starve because we know the man will face a harsh punishment after he dies?
Or this.


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You seem to want to use a prenup to compensate for the problems caused by "no-fault divorce".  

Why not?


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I think that a better solution is get rid of no-fault divorce.
Let me know when that get's changed.  Until then, the problems still must be faced.
Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: jvk on June 24, 2018, 05:21:28 PM
I think this topic demonstrates the evils of the separation of Church and state.  In a truly Catholic society, the Church would be over the state, and divorce would not even be an option...this whole conversation would then be a moot point. 

Title: Re: When A Woman Says You're Not Listening To Me!
Post by: Croix de Fer on June 24, 2018, 05:54:49 PM
You have that exactly right.  Croix has spent too much time interacting with these types.  Yet their views of what constitutes an "alpha" male are not Catholic.  
You don't even know me. The fact is I spend very little time on no more than one or two of those sites. Both are YouTube channels, and one speaks more about "manosphere" topics, but it actually has criticized manosphere & MGTOW, too, and the other one rarely talks about those issues, but recently it addressed MGTOW and it was also critical of it. The terms "LARP", "Alpha"/"Beta", etc. are more used by people commenting on the live chat. It's merely coincidental that they use it and I use the same terms. Your Post Hoc fallacy is that I started using those words after I viewed those YT channels. Moreover, I spend far more time on CathInfo than those sites.



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These would classify Our Lord as a "beta" because He turned the other cheek.  This worldly notion of alpha would have males dominate, use, and abuse women for their pleasure and never give in to them on anything and refuse to sacrifice anything for them.
I never argued from that warped perspective. The fact is the word "meek" in Hebrew means to have the ability to physically impose your will or domination over another person, but you refrain from it in situations where it's not necessary. You don't arbitrarily push another person or nation around for a sense of pleasure or a greedy, self-serving agenda. You only use force and dominate when it upholds a righteous cause (God's Divine and natural law; and self defense, etc).

Meek is not being physically weak or ineffective. Being a weak person is not a virtue because there's no ability to harm another person. With a lack of ability, there is no true free will in that area.

Jesus Christ is an alpha male. St. John the Forerunner was an alpha (or sigma). The apostles were alphas after Christ ascended into Heaven.