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Author Topic: Mel Gibson Arranges Conditional Ordinations  (Read 4179 times)

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Offline josefamenendez

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Re: Mel Gibson Arranges Conditional Ordinations
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2023, 01:51:08 PM »
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    • I just read the NOW article. Pretty convincing that it was a new rite of Installation for Bishop Gracida. I'm surprised Mel would be so sloppy about this.
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    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Mel Gibson Arranges Conditional Ordinations
    « Reply #31 on: February 16, 2023, 01:57:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: josefamenendez on February 16, 2023, 01:51:08 PM
    I just read the NOW article. Pretty convincing that it was a new rite of Installation for Bishop Gracida. I'm surprised Mel would be so sloppy about this.
    Given it appears that Gracida has accepted the results of the Bugnolo conclave (ie. that Bergoglio is now pope), I would think that Mel might cut those ties.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Mel Gibson Arranges Conditional Ordinations
    « Reply #32 on: February 16, 2023, 02:13:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 16, 2023, 11:35:54 AM
    No, this cannot be proven from pictures.  It's possible, even likely that the New Rite of Consecration was widely used, but you had a bishop who pulled out the old one when it came time for the essential form.  I know of one case reported by a different priest where exactly that happened, resulting in a hybrid rite between the two.  As the story was told to me, the bishop was following the new Rite and then got to the main part of the form, and said something along the lines of, "I can't use this garbage." and asked for the Old Rite to be brought out.

    That one snippet about accepting the staff/crosier is basically the same (except in translation) of the Old Rite.

    Really the only "smoking gun" they claim to have was the Gospel alleged placed over his head vs. on his shoulders.  If you had servers who were familiar with the newer Rite, they could have easily done it that way just because it was what they were doing in general for other consecration ceremonies.

    Here are the points of "evidence" adduced by NO watch.
    1 and 2 are weak.  Since the sanctuary had been reconfigured already for the NOM, the photos regarding the layout, etc. are meaningless.  Really, as I said, NOW admits that the other photos are ambiguous, but settles on the Gospel over his head instead on his shoulders as conclusive.  But I already cited a possible explanation for that.

    3) Did the individuals writing said reports even know the difference?  How many episcopal consecrations had the individual covered?

    4) So what if it was in Vernacular instead of Latin?  There were already experimentations going into the late 1950s where the Traditional Rites were conferred in the vernacular.

    5) Yet they do not deny that it's possible that Archbishop Carroll may have chosen to retain it anyway, as Bishop Gracida says he did.  I've heard of other bishops having done the same thing.

    6) But Dearden wasn't in his own cathedral, so as a visiting prelate, he would have relied on the MC and others to put together the ceremony.  It was common even before Vatican II for the bishop to just show up and have had the MC and others get everything put together beforehand and then just start reading and doing as the MC said.

    So there's nothing here that precludes a hybrid rite situation with some confusion by the servers.

    I agree that the photo of the NO “ritual/Gospel” placed over his head is the best evidence for the new right having been used. One thing that is certain, in my mind, is that that photo is enough evidence to establish a positive doubt. 
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Mel Gibson Arranges Conditional Ordinations
    « Reply #33 on: February 16, 2023, 02:14:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on February 16, 2023, 11:51:08 AM
    Which bishop was this? What priest told you this?

    Based on the NOW article regarding Bishop Gracida, it seems to me that every single cleric present at that ceremony would know that the bishop switched the essential form.  But no one has corroborated Gracida's assertion.  At the very least, there is enough positive doubt with his consecration.

    That change in his blog piece is questionable too.  What happened there?

    And it looks like Bishop Gracida may have also attended Brother Bugnolo's "conclave". I'd be concerned that his age could be affecting much of what he says and does.

    I agree Vermont.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Mel Gibson Arranges Conditional Ordinations
    « Reply #34 on: February 17, 2023, 06:36:03 PM »
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Mel Gibson Arranges Conditional Ordinations
    « Reply #35 on: February 17, 2023, 06:44:37 PM »
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    • Bishop Gracida reads Cathinfo confirmed. 
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Mel Gibson Arranges Conditional Ordinations
    « Reply #36 on: February 17, 2023, 08:07:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on February 17, 2023, 06:36:03 PM
    Posted today by Msgr. Gracida:
    https://abyssum.org/2023/02/17/to-whomever-it-may-conc
    Wow! That's really awesome. Thank you Bishop Gracida for the confirmation
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    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Mel Gibson Arranges Conditional Ordinations
    « Reply #37 on: February 17, 2023, 08:13:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: josefamenendez on February 16, 2023, 01:51:08 PM
    I just read the NOW article. Pretty convincing that it was a new rite of Installation for Bishop Gracida. I'm surprised Mel would be so sloppy about this.
    Maybe he knew something you didn't.
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Mel Gibson Arranges Conditional Ordinations
    « Reply #38 on: February 17, 2023, 08:15:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Miseremini on February 17, 2023, 08:13:55 PM
    Maybe he knew something you didn't.
    Yes- I was wrong in my judgement
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Mel Gibson Arranges Conditional Ordinations
    « Reply #39 on: February 17, 2023, 08:46:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on February 16, 2023, 02:13:01 PM
    I agree that the photo of the NO “ritual/Gospel” placed over his head is the best evidence for the new right having been used. One thing that is certain, in my mind, is that that photo is enough evidence to establish a positive doubt.

    There's doubt, but the location of the Gospel book is not definitive.  That could have been done in conformity with the change in that particular aspect of the rite, and does not mean that the Traditional essential form was not used for the ordination proper.

    Even though they might have used the Traditional essential form, recall that the Ordination is couched within a Mass, and they were undoubtedly using the NOM for Mass, so this was likely a hybrid rite already in that sense.  I mentioned the story told to me by a priest at seminary about the bishop who, in the middle of an Ordination started to use the revised form, stopped, said he couldn't use this garbage, and then requested that the old Rite be brought out.

    Best thing would have been for NOW to actually contact Bishop Gracida to bring these observations to his attention and then get his side of the story.  He's easily reached.  They can contact me if they'd like to obtain his e-mail address, which I found easily online.  Without having first gotten his version of these events, this is a shameless hit piece that had no business being published.

    Such an query could have gone a couple ways.

    NOW:  "Your Excellency, you had mentioned that you were consecrated a bishop using the Traditional Rite.  We've found pictures and account of your consecration that seem more consistent with the New Rite, in particular the Gospel being held above your head instead of on your shoulders."

    1) Bishop Gracida:  "Yes, that's because the altar servers that Bishop Dearden brought with him were trained in the ceremonies of the New Rite and were used to doing it that way.  It was a combination of the New Mass with the Traditional Rite for the essential form, where we used an English translation of the Traditional form instead of the New Rite version."

    2) Bishop Gracida:  "Now that I see the pictures, my memory must have failed me.  Would a Traditional bishop consider conditionally consecrating me and then conditionally ordaining the priests that I had conditionally ordained?"
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    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Mel Gibson Arranges Conditional Ordinations
    « Reply #40 on: February 17, 2023, 11:59:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on February 17, 2023, 06:36:03 PM
    Posted today by Msgr. Gracida:
    https://abyssum.org/2023/02/17/to-whomever-it-may-conc
    Unfortunately, all he did was basically reiterate what he said before.  I'd like to see him respond to NOW's points specifically. I will ask if NOW contacted him directly.   
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    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Mel Gibson Arranges Conditional Ordinations
    « Reply #41 on: February 18, 2023, 12:05:28 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on February 17, 2023, 06:44:37 PM
    Bishop Gracida reads Cathinfo confirmed.
    Or someone contacted him.
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    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Mel Gibson Arranges Conditional Ordinations
    « Reply #42 on: February 18, 2023, 12:24:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on February 15, 2023, 11:34:47 AM
    Not so sure about that.  Here it states that he accepted the results of the Br Bugnolo election:

    Election Results: Events, Candidates, Results & What it means for Catholics world-wide | From Rome
    I'd like to see him update his blog to clarify whether he now accepts Bergoglio as pope.
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    Offline WhiteWorkinClassScapegoat

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    Re: Mel Gibson Arranges Conditional Ordinations
    « Reply #43 on: February 18, 2023, 12:45:21 AM »
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    • Quote from: de Lugo 2/14/2023, 12:29:32 PM

    The news was published by ChurchMilitant.com (February 10) which is run by the supposedly cured ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ Michael Voris who, nevertheless, continues to project accusations of "ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity" on PiusX.

    Wait. I don't mean to derail this thread, but Voris (the hair piece-wearing, cured homo but, apparently, not cured of vanity, hence the hair piece) has, at least, implied that Pope St. Pius X was a homo? What kind of demon lie is this?
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