Author Topic: What kinds of music are forbidden? (Read 4611 times)

InfiniteFaith · « **on:** April 18, 2014, 04:31:12 PM »

I like listening to heavy metal. Most of the music I listen to is secular music. I have heard that listening to bad music is a mortal sin. With that said, what criteria does the music need for it to be a sin to listen to it?

Some examples of music I listen to are Megadeath, the Doors, Rage against the machine, etc. To be honest, I don't always pay attention to the lyrics. I know they use poor language at times, but I don't see how the lyrics are so bad. If the lyrics are not too bad and they don't talk about bad things then would it be sinful to listen to it? Or is it the actual music itself that is sinful? Perhaps the sounds of the guitars.

Thoughts on this?

Matthew · « **Reply #1 on:** April 18, 2014, 05:42:39 PM »

It's the lyrics, the ideas those lyrics convey, combined with the music which powerfully manipulates your emotions -- possibly in an inappropriate direction (For example, they could play an upbeat chord as they talk about rebellion from authority, or killing someone. That kind of thing)

And yes, some of the lyrics are downright sinful. Some are crass, some are violent, and some are filthy.

Someone in my family got into "KISS", and the titles alone would make any Catholic with a sense of decency blush with shame. "Lick it up"? Seriously?

Who cares what K.I.S.S. stands for -- with music like theirs, they're in the service of Satan whether or not they intended their name to actually stand for that.

The same goes for any other music with bad lyrics.

You also have to remember that the music you listen to is a reflection of your soul. Is it prayerful (chant)? Is it organized (Classical)? Is it exciting (pop music)? Is it angst, anger, and chaos (heavy metal)?

Music can influence emotions very strongly. You listen to the music that reflects your feelings and what's in your soul, AND that music further influences your emotions and your thoughts. It goes both ways.

Frances · « **Reply #2 on:** April 18, 2014, 06:07:32 PM »

:guitar:
The lyrics DO matter, as does the overall effect on the soul by the tone, rhythm, beat, harmonony, etc. "Megadeath?" Shouldn't the name of this group tell you whose side they are on? Our Lord brings life, Satan, death.
If a person was raised with this sort of music, maybe was exposed to it in the womb, he probably finds it "normal." But that doesn't mean once he is enlightened, that he shouldn't seek to expand his musical horizons to find a genre pleasing to God.
If you like loud and lively, there is plenty of music that fits this description whose purpose is not to pay homage to the devil. Explore the folk music of the world. Giving up heavy metal doesn't mean you must listen only to classical! You will have to look for it, though. What better use for the internet?
Even though Lent is nearly over, try abstaining from heavy metal by replacing it for a month. (Or if too long, a week, a few days!). See if your overall mood, attitude, and spiritual life don't improve! It could be you don't know the difference because you've known nothing else.

Nadir · « **Reply #3 on:** April 18, 2014, 10:07:11 PM »

Infinite Faith, I think I remember that you started a thread asking if something or other would justify killing. Can't recall the details. There were other troubling threads too. I am no longer puzzled when I reead that you enjoy listening to heavy metal.

It is all about evil, killing rage, anger, hate, everything that Jesus came here to save us from. Jesus died for you and He rose again victorious over death. You can show Him you love Him by not partaking in evil. You are indeed doing evil to yourself and possibly to others by listening to heavy metal. Take Frances' advice and stop it for a month or whatever.

Not only are the lyrics evil, but the performers and promoters are evil. Their aim is to take you to hell with them. The music itself is evil because it drags you down, changes your mood and incites you to negative feelings and ideas.

Show Jesus that you love Him and give up that bad practice which endangers your immortal soul.

Conspiracy_Factist · « **Reply #4 on:** April 18, 2014, 10:49:19 PM »

When i was in the N.O I sued to listen to all that junk music...I suggest you strictly listen to nice Gregorian chants for a while, you'll soon feel disgusted when you listen to heavy metal again

PerEvangelicaDicta · « **Reply #5 on:** April 18, 2014, 11:39:17 PM »

Ok, CI folk, don't shoot me for referencing the following sites!

This summary from a FE forum discussion regarding a John Vennari tape:

Quote

- The music itself (not just the lyrics) has an effect on the soul. The ancients (e.g., Confucius, Plato, Aristotle, etc.) all agreed on this: persistent listening to a certain form of music disposes one's soul to virtue or vice.

- There are three possible constituents of music: 1) melody, 2) harmony, and 3) rhythm.

- Each constituent of music stimulates a certain faculty of the human person: 1) melody - intellect, 2) harmony - emotion, and 3) rhythm - passion. Various examples are given to demonstrate this.

- Just as the human person's faculties have a hierarchical order, so must good (i.e., virtuous) music have order.

- The human person's intellect is ordered to a primacy: governance. The emotional appetite of the human person must be guided by reason (the intellect). Likewise, and even more importantly, the passionate appetite must be subordinated to reason (the intellect). Analogously, good and virtuous music ought to be primarily "governed" by melody (intellect), maybe enhanced by harmony (emotion), and only supported by rhythm (passion).

- Bad music is inversely ordered (i.e., primarily rooted in rhythm and a de-emphasized melody). Examples are heavy metal, rap, techno, etc.

- Scientific experiments (e.g. playing classical as opposed to hard rock to plants, cows, lab rats, etc.; ) demonstrate that different forms of music have different physical effects on their subjects as well.

- That covers the objective criterion when analyzing music; however, contained within this paradigm, there still exists a subjective criterion of judgment.

and

This link to a series of discussions on Youtube:
http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/archive-2007-rock_music_and_the_catholic_young.htm

Cantarella · « **Reply #6 on:** April 18, 2014, 11:49:50 PM »

Everything that does not make you holy, just get rid of.
Everything that does not make you glorify Our Lord, is pointless.

Traditional Guy 20 · « **Reply #7 on:** April 19, 2014, 09:03:55 AM »

I think everyone's ignoring the core problem here, which is genre, and just beating around the bush. I will not do so and tell which genre of music is bad and which is good.

Good- Classical, Folk, Military, Religious, etc.

Bad- Rap, Hip-Hop, Acid rock, Grunge rock, Satanic rock, hard rock, rock n' roll, pop, modern music, etc.

Graham · « **Reply #8 on:** April 19, 2014, 10:52:53 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

It's the lyrics, the ideas those lyrics convey, combined with the music which powerfully manipulates your emotions -- possibly in an inappropriate direction (For example, they could play an upbeat chord as they talk about rebellion from authority, or killing someone. That kind of thing)

And yes, some of the lyrics are downright sinful. Some are crass, some are violent, and some are filthy.

Someone in my family got into "KISS", and the titles alone would make any Catholic with a sense of decency blush with shame. "Lick it up"? Seriously?

Who cares what K.I.S.S. stands for -- with music like theirs, they're in the service of Satan whether or not they intended their name to actually stand for that.

The same goes for any other music with bad lyrics.

You also have to remember that the music you listen to is a reflection of your soul. Is it prayerful (chant)? Is it organized (Classical)? Is it exciting (pop music)? Is it angst, anger, and chaos (heavy metal)?

Music can influence emotions very strongly. You listen to the music that reflects your feelings and what's in your soul, AND that music further influences your emotions and your thoughts. It goes both ways.

Generally speaking, I think this is a very good, practical answer to Infinitefaith's question. If I may I'd like to expand on it a bit.

We know that music primarily affects the emotions. It can target them accurately, and it can stir them up or restore tranquillity. This is admitted by all, and most sensible people will go a step further and grant that habitual listening to a certain type of music, which has certain emotional effects, will imprint corresponding patterns on the emotional life of the soul. This necessarily will conduce to a certain type of character in the listener. These emotional and character-forming effects give music a moral importance, and so as Catholics we cannot treat the matter indifferently, which is why we must restrict our habitual listening to only those forms of music which tend to the good, or at least not to the ill, of the soul. (Aside: as with most matters of moral importance, regulation of music is not simply a private matter but a public one, as Plato and Aristotle both held.)

All of that is straightforward, in theory: where we encounter difficulties is in practically distinguishing wholesome music from decrepit. For well-formed souls like Cantarella, Catholic sense may suffice in most cases. For those of us who have to think it through more before making a judgment, I think that the framework cited by PerEvangelicaDicta above provides an adequate basis for doing this, though I do think it needs some correction and a great deal of elaboration. For instance the schema does not address the place of lyrics at all, nor the different effects that different meters (simple, compound, mixed, or even extensive syncopation, etc.) can have on the soul, nor the moral effects of different modes, tuning systems, and permutations thereof. It's an immense field of knowledge, but I'll just reiterate that your reply, Matthew, and PerEvangelicaDicta's framework seem adequate for Infinitefaith's purpose. I also agree with Gooch about laying off the heavy metal and spending time with Gregorian for a while, at the very least it would be a good 'experiment.'

Nadir · « **Reply #9 on:** April 19, 2014, 04:38:35 PM »

Just as evil music can cause disturbance in the human heart, so can good music cause peace to flourish there.

First Book of Kings Chapter 16: 13 - 23

Quote

Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward: and Samuel rose up, and went to Ramatha. But the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him. And the servants of Saul said to him: Behold now an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
Let our lord give orders, and thy servants who are before thee will seek out a man skillful in playing on the harp, that when the evil spirit from the Lord is upon thee, he may play with his hand, and thou mayest bear it more easily. And Saul said to his servants: Provide me then some man that can play well, and bring him to me. And one of the servants answering, said: Behold I have seen a son of Isai the Bethlehemite, a skillful player, and one of great strength, and a man fit for war, and prudent in his words, and a comely person: and the Lord is with him. Then Saul sent messengers to Isai, saying: Send me David thy son, who is in the pastures. And Isai took an ass laden with bread, and a bottle of wine, and a kid of the flock, and sent them by the hand of David his son to Saul.

And David came to Saul, and stood before him: and he loved him exceedingly, and made him his armourbearer. And Saul sent to Isai, saying: Let David stand before me: for he hath found favour in my sight. So whensoever the evil spirit from the Lord was upon Saul, David took his harp, and played with his hand, and Saul was refreshed, and was better, for the evil spirit departed from him.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #10 on:** April 19, 2014, 05:14:15 PM »

.

John Vennari comes from a musical background. He used to play guitar for a rock band. So he has intimate, first-hand experience for what it takes for you to be "in it," and what it does to you when you're in it.

Quote from: PerEvangelicaDicta

Ok, CI folk, don't shoot me for referencing the following sites!

This summary from a FE forum discussion regarding a John Vennari tape:

Quote

- The music itself (not just the lyrics) has an effect on the soul. The ancients (e.g., Confucius, Plato, Aristotle, etc.) all agreed on this: persistent listening to a certain form of music disposes one's soul to virtue or vice.

- There are three possible constituents of music: 1) melody, 2) harmony, and 3) rhythm.

- Each constituent of music stimulates a certain faculty of the human person: 1) melody - intellect, 2) harmony - emotion, and 3) rhythm - passion. Various examples are given to demonstrate this.

- Just as the human person's faculties have a hierarchical order, so must good (i.e., virtuous) music have order.

- The human person's intellect is ordered to a primacy: governance. The emotional appetite of the human person must be guided by reason (the intellect). Likewise, and even more importantly, the passionate appetite must be subordinated to reason (the intellect). Analogously, good and virtuous music ought to be primarily "governed" by melody (intellect), maybe enhanced by harmony (emotion), and only supported by rhythm (passion).

- Bad music is inversely ordered (i.e., primarily rooted in rhythm and a de-emphasized melody). Examples are heavy metal, rap, techno, etc.

- Scientific experiments (e.g. playing classical as opposed to hard rock to plants, cows, lab rats, etc.; ) demonstrate that different forms of music have different physical effects on their subjects as well.

- That covers the objective criterion when analyzing music; however, contained within this paradigm, there still exists a subjective criterion of judgment.

and

This link to a series of discussions on Youtube:
http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/archive-2007-rock_music_and_the_catholic_young.htm

The common thread of all Rock n' Roll, Jazz, Hip-Hop, Rap and the like is the rhythm section. Try playing any of these without percussion and see how hollow and ridiculous it is. In Rock music, it is the place of the Rhythm Guitar to offset the lead and the vocals and the bass with counterpoint, especially rhythmical. Try listening to a rhythm guitar part all by itself, and see if you can guess what song it's for. Good luck.

These kinds of music have an appeal that is entirely founded on a driving rhythm that is both the music's structure and its guide.

The base rhythms of these kinds of music demand the stirring of man's base passions. And it is his willing obsession with his own base passions that is an inherent aspect of his 'enjoyment' of listening to it. This means, that no one can 'enjoy' hearing those types of music without first giving in to their 'enjoyment' of their own base passions, which is the 'feelings' that you get from the WAIST down. It is not in the heart, and it is definitely not in the intellect. Rather, the groin takes command of the heart and they both gang up to take over the mind, so that the listener becomes a victim of his own physical base urges.

.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #11 on:** April 19, 2014, 05:22:33 PM »

.

In order for anyone to enjoy them, they have to first believe that letting their physical urges take command of their thinking is a "GOOD THING."

Show me where Catholic moral theology teaches that letting the intellect be controlled by the body is ever, or in ANY circuмstance, in any way "good."

.

Nadir · « **Reply #12 on:** April 21, 2014, 04:42:51 PM »

IF, do you like this?

Matto · « **Reply #13 on:** April 21, 2014, 04:58:26 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

Everything that does not make you holy, just get rid of.
Everything that does not make you glorify Our Lord, is pointless.

I just wanted to point out that most people need some recreation which is fine as long as the recreation is not sinful.