Author Topic: What is Sinful to do on Sundays?  (Read 1675 times)

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Offline klasG4e

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Re: What is Sinful to do on Sundays?
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2017, 07:02:09 PM »
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  • A trad priest told me once that since it's not a sin to play basketball on Sunday, it's perfectly OK to go buy a basketball on Sunday so you can play.  Say what?!

    I know a lot of trad priests won't blink at going out to a restaurant to eat on Sunday even when it is entirely unnecessary for them to do so.

    Some seem to have no problem whatsoever with spending money (or having someone else spend it for them) to purchase a ticket for some form of entertainment including sports events on Sunday.  Hmmm?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What is Sinful to do on Sundays?
    « Reply #16 on: November 07, 2017, 07:15:36 PM »
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  • A trad priest told me once that since it's not a sin to play basketball on Sunday, it's perfectly OK to go buy a basketball on Sunday so you can play.  Say what?!

    I know a lot of trad priests won't blink at going out to a restaurant to eat on Sunday even when it is entirely unnecessary for them to do so.

    Some seem to have no problem whatsoever with spending money (or having someone else spend it for them) to purchase a ticket for some form of entertainment including sports events on Sunday.  Hmmm?

    There's a laxist school of moral theology that goes along these lines.

    MOST theologians would consider going out to eat on a Sunday to be fine.  Eating is not unnecessary, nor is the cooking required to support it.  And if someone is doing the work of cooking for you, then there's nothing wrong with paying them to do it and in fact justice requires it.

    Buying a basketball seems rather sketchy.  I wouldn't agree with that one.  Next time buy the basketball beforehand.

    With regard to the entertainment, I could see going either way on that.  Entertainment is allowed.  So it's allowed to work in support of providing said entertainment.  I think that one could go either way.

    But the basketball thing seems out of line ... because the store isn't there simply providing support for entertainment.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What is Sinful to do on Sundays?
    « Reply #17 on: November 07, 2017, 08:01:03 PM »
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  • So, basically -- all agree that work is allowed for necessary activity (e.g. eating).

    Entertainment is allowed, but not necessary.

    Lax theologians would say that work in support of an allowed activity (e.g. entertainment) is permitted.  Others would say that it's only permitted for necessary activity.

    Not sure myself.

    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: What is Sinful to do on Sundays?
    « Reply #18 on: November 07, 2017, 09:04:34 PM »
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  • So, basically -- all agree that work is allowed for necessary activity (e.g. eating).


    Are you saying that there is nothing wrong in going out to purchase a meal in a restaurant on a Sunday when you can just as easily stay home and prepare a meal for yourself with food that you already have at home?  Eating is obviously necessary, but the purchase of the meal in the restaurant would not be necessary unless you were traveling, etc.  Are not all unnecessary purchases on Sunday forbidden?  Please clarify.  Thanks.

    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: What is Sinful to do on Sundays?
    « Reply #19 on: November 08, 2017, 06:22:58 PM »
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  • It seems that a fair number of Trads including priests find nothing wrong in going out to purchase a meal in a restaurant on a Sunday when they can just as easily stay home and prepare and eat their meal at home.  Isn't there something wrong with this picture in terms of avoiding unnecessary purchases on Sunday? 


    Offline TKGS

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    Re: What is Sinful to do on Sundays?
    « Reply #20 on: November 08, 2017, 06:41:10 PM »
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  • It seems that a fair number of Trads including priests find nothing wrong in going out to purchase a meal in a restaurant on a Sunday when they can just as easily stay home and prepare and eat their meal at home.  Isn't there something wrong with this picture in terms of avoiding unnecessary purchases on Sunday?
    I have actually never heard of the commandment to avoid unnecessary purchases on Sunday, only unnecessary servile work.  As for meals, whether they are procured at a restaurant or procured at home, the servile work to prepare the meals is necessary work.  

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: What is Sinful to do on Sundays?
    « Reply #21 on: November 08, 2017, 09:28:49 PM »
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  • In these day, without the easy availability of the teaching Church, fplk tend to be unsure,  so they tend to make up their own rules, which are stricter than the Church - in other words - scrupulous.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What is Sinful to do on Sundays?
    « Reply #22 on: November 09, 2017, 07:58:12 AM »
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  • It seems that a fair number of Trads including priests find nothing wrong in going out to purchase a meal in a restaurant on a Sunday when they can just as easily stay home and prepare and eat their meal at home.  Isn't there something wrong with this picture in terms of avoiding unnecessary purchases on Sunday?

    I have not heard an opinion from any Catholic theologian who says this is wrong.  It's not about the money changing hands.  It's about the labor to be performed.  Whether I do the work of cooking or someone else does, there's labor involved.  And if someone else does that necessary labor for you, there's nothing wrong with paying them for it.  That's the theological reasoning.  Money is not part of the equation.  There's no prohibition about spending money on a Sunday.


    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: What is Sinful to do on Sundays?
    « Reply #23 on: November 09, 2017, 10:03:36 AM »
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  •   There's no prohibition about spending money on a Sunday.
    Some theologians such as Fr. Heribert Jone (Moral Theology, TAN,) would seem to very likely place a prohibition on unnecessarily going to a restaurant on Sunday.  On p.122 of said book he states: "Forbidden in themselves are such activities as marketing, fairs, buying and selling, public auctions, shopping in stores." 

    The 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia under the entry for Sunday reads as follows: " From the eight century the law began to be formulated as it exists at the present day, and the local councils forbade servile work, public buying and selling,....."

    To go out and buy a meal on Sunday when it is not necessary may well be in keeping with the letter of the law, but it would seem to be of some real doubt as to whether it was in keeping with the spirit of the law, i.e. the Third Commandment.

    I am of the impression that although most Trads would agree that we should try to refrain from unnecessary buying at department stores on Sunday many of them find nothing wrong in buying tickets to entertainment events or to buying a meal on Sunday when it is not necessary.  It seems to me that by doing the latter we feed into the secular culture (which profanes Sundays in every way imaginable) by treating Sundays like any other day of the week.

    It may be of some of some interest that Sr. Maie of St. Peter, O.C.D., the nun and visionary mystic who is best known for starting the devotion to the Holy Face of Jesus and for the Golden Arrow Prayer, asserted that in one of her private revelations concerning reparation to Christ's Holy Face, Jesus told her: "The executioners crucified me on Friday, Christians crucify me on Sunday." Interestingly enough this revelation was given the following year (1847) after Our Lady of LaSallete wept over man's neglect of Sunday


    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: What is Sinful to do on Sundays?
    « Reply #24 on: November 09, 2017, 10:36:30 AM »
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  • In these day, without the easy availability of the teaching Church, fplk tend to be unsure,  so they tend to make up their own rules, which are stricter than the Church - in other words - scrupulous.

    Of course, it goes both ways!  They can also tend to be more lax than the spirit of the law would allow -- in other words -- complacent. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What is Sinful to do on Sundays?
    « Reply #25 on: November 11, 2017, 04:53:12 PM »
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  • public buying and selling,....."

    ...

    I am of the impression that although most Trads would agree that we should try to refrain from unnecessary buying at department stores on Sunday many of them find nothing wrong in buying tickets to entertainment events or to buying a meal on Sunday when it is not necessary.  It seems to me that by doing the latter we feed into the secular culture (which profanes Sundays in every way imaginable) by treating Sundays like any other day of the week.

    Public buying and selling is generally not permitted ON ITS OWN.  But it's permitted when done in support of NECESSARY activity.  I can purchase medicine at a drug store.  I can purchase a meal at a restaurant.

    Yes, the logic for entertainment is a little bit weaker.  Eating is NECESSARY.  Entertainment is PERMITTED.  Labor is licit in support of necessary activity.  Is labor licit in support of PERMITTED activity?  To me, since the entertainment isn't necessary, by extension the work done in support of it is likewise unnecessary.

    It's like the one theologian I read who said that it's OK to drink beer between meals on fast days ... because it's a liquid.  But, then, he says, it's OK to munch on some snacks with it ne potus noceat, so that the food doesn't cause harm (e.g. upset your stomach ... due to drinking on an empty stomach).  That's such a huge stretch.  My brother (also a seminarian) and I used to joke that I could go drink a beer and then eat a Big Mac with it ne potus noceat.  We'd toss that phrase around as a joke ... rather mocking this particular theological conclusion.

    Another theologian said that something was considered drink (vs. food) if you could get it through a straw.  So my brother and I joked about blending up solid food and sucking it through a very fat straw.

    I once also read a particular theologian who used tortured logic to declare that if a priest did not offer Mass on Sundays he was not required to ATTEND Mass to meet his obligation to keep the day holy.  That's because the Church law requiring Mass attendance was, technically speaking, addressed to "the faithful" and not to priests.

    Jesuits were notorious for this kind of reasoning.  There's actually a term for it ... "Jesuitical logic" or "Jesuitical argument".  In doing so, they completely undermined the spirit of the law.  Not only that, they made Catholic moral theology appear very Pharisaical to the world.  I think they did it just to show how clever they were.


    Offline jvk

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    Re: What is Sinful to do on Sundays?
    « Reply #26 on: November 19, 2017, 03:59:45 PM »
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  • I've been taught that (unneccesary)menial work would be something a slave would do, or a servant, and is therefore not to be done on a Sunday.  But I've always wondered...what about sewing clothes?  That is menial labor, yes, but...if I find it's a form of recreation, is it a sin?  It's not as physical as yard work, which I consider work to be avoided on Sunday.  And yet there are those that find yard work relaxing, and not labor intensive--a form of recreation.   Any thoughts on this?

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: What is Sinful to do on Sundays?
    « Reply #27 on: November 19, 2017, 04:29:28 PM »
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  • ...what about sewing clothes?  That is menial labor, yes, but...if I find it's a form of recreation, is it a sin?  It's not as physical as yard work, which I consider work to be avoided on Sunday.  And yet there are those that find yard work relaxing, and not labor intensive--a form of recreation.   Any thoughts on this?
    Are you sewing for money? Then save it for a weekday.
    If you sew because you have a hobby, then go ahead.
    If you're sewing because you need a new dress, and it doesn't take away family time, OK.
    It's just as physical as yard work, though it doesn't need as much physical energy.
    .  
    I garden whenever the weather is good for it - not too hot nor too cold nor too wet.
    .
    As long as Our Lord is given priority - pray always - and unless it is unnecessary servile work, go ahead.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What is Sinful to do on Sundays?
    « Reply #28 on: November 19, 2017, 06:10:09 PM »
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  • I've been taught that (unneccesary)menial work would be something a slave would do, or a servant, and is therefore not to be done on a Sunday.  But I've always wondered...what about sewing clothes?  That is menial labor, yes, but...if I find it's a form of recreation, is it a sin?  It's not as physical as yard work, which I consider work to be avoided on Sunday.  And yet there are those that find yard work relaxing, and not labor intensive--a form of recreation.   Any thoughts on this?

    My wife sews on Sunday for RELAXATION.  She finds the focus and concentration required to be a great comfort and relief from all the noise and stress she endures during the week.  For her, it's little different than working on an art project.  So if it's for fun or relaxation, there's no issue there whatsoever.  Nadir's answer was right on the mark.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: What is Sinful to do on Sundays?
    « Reply #29 on: November 19, 2017, 08:29:00 PM »
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  • My wife sews on Sunday for RELAXATION.  She finds the focus and concentration required to be a great comfort and relief from all the noise and stress she endures during the week.  For her, it's little different than working on an art project.  So if it's for fun or relaxation, there's no issue there whatsoever.  Nadir's answer was right on the mark.
    Maybe we should keep in mind what the purpose of Sunday is in order to make a good judgment.  Principally we are worshipping God and drawing our minds to the things of God and of Heaven.  Whatever aids us in that regard and which has not been prohibited by the Church is acceptable behavior for Sunday.  I can think of a few things that may not be explicitly prohibited but which I think would probably violate the spirit of the law.  Such as violent sports, crafts or sports which involve loud machines, strenuous labor even if subjectively it is relaxing.  Strictly speaking these things may not be sinful in every case but it seems that it should not be too difficult to find some other activity which is more in keeping with the spirit of the day.  We are not all called to be monks but we are called to be holy.

     

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