Author Topic: What is puritan about america????? (Read 1247 times)

spouse of Jesus · « **on:** August 16, 2009, 08:23:55 AM »

What is puritan about america????? I think the answer is: nothing at all!
But some trads say that america has many puritan values.
How can this be when there is so much immodesty, impurity and worldly lifestile? These things are found everywhere, I know, but why do they call such things puritan?

Telesphorus · « **Reply #1 on:** August 16, 2009, 11:15:15 AM »

Quote from: spouse of Jesus

What is puritan about america????? I think the answer is: nothing at all!
But some trads say that america has many puritan values.
How can this be when there is so much immodesty, impurity and worldly lifestile? These things are found everywhere, I know, but why do they call such things puritan?

It's a very complicated topic. Books could be written about it. (and have been) "Puritan" does not mean they were particularly pure. Rather they were Anglicans who wanted "purify" the Anglican sect of anything that seemed Catholic.

A lot of Americans read The Scarlet Letter and some writings from early America. That is why they use the term "Puritan" the way they do.

Many Europeans, in their decadence, see American religiosity as a remnant of Puritanism. I do not believe that view is necessarily correct.

Caraffa · « **Reply #2 on:** August 16, 2009, 12:19:54 PM »

Quote from: spouse of Jesus

What is puritan about america????? I think the answer is: nothing at all!
But some trads say that america has many puritan values.
How can this be when there is so much immodesty, impurity and worldly lifestile? These things are found everywhere, I know, but why do they call such things puritan?

You actually summed up the Puritanism in the later part of your post. Puritanism in America has to do with minimalism, that is minimalism in dress, minimalism in faith, minimalism in the arts (Modern rock and "pop" music, Modern art), etc. For instance, since TIA's article on Chartres has caused much controversy, I would consider these pictures to be an aspect of Puritanism:

spouse of Jesus · « **Reply #3 on:** August 16, 2009, 06:27:46 PM »

But, why whenever anybody speaks about mortification, death to the world and other saintly behaviours, he is accused of being a puritan?
And then they say that america has puritan roots, while none of the above is found in what you call 'pagan culture of your country'. :idea:

Caraffa · « **Reply #4 on:** August 16, 2009, 09:36:45 PM »

Quote from: spouse of Jesus

But, why whenever anybody speaks about mortification, death to the world and other saintly behaviours, he is accused of being a puritan?

The Puritans never practiced mortification of flesh. Otherwise normal mortification is Catholic teaching, for someone to say that it is puritan needs a lesson in Catholic theology on this subject.

Quote

And then they say that america has puritan roots, while none of the above is found in what you call 'pagan culture of your country'. :idea:

Our culture is pagan, no doubt about it. The Puritans wanted to to purify the Anglican Church of its Catholic elements. As a result the Puritans became minimalists in worship. The minimalism spilled over in to other aspects as a mentioned above. Hence today, the casualness of dress and behavior could very well be linked to Puritanism. Many people probably don't think of it that way, but throughout the history of America, the "Puritan" sections have often been the most radical(liberal). Yesterday they called for a revolution and break from England, today they support gαy marriage.

spouse of Jesus · « **Reply #5 on:** August 17, 2009, 01:00:35 AM »

These heresies:
1-albigenism
2-calvinism
3-jansenism
4-manicheanism
and perhaps puritansm

seem very attractive to me. Since I am a serious person I love rules and laws, I love order and modesty. I am a big fan of Sts. Cure de Ars and Alfonsus Ligouri and their so-called strict catholicism. I love St. Jerome letters. I advocte reserve and gravity in relation to the opposite gender.
And yet...I saw luigi who is called caio in this forum, being accused of above heresies, because catholicism was a fun religion according to 'wholly roamin catholiuc' and 'harlequin king'. This caused to seriously consider joining calvinists one day, since I am love simplicity and gravity.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #6 on:** August 17, 2009, 07:05:36 AM »

Quote from: spouse of Jesus

These heresies:
1-albigenism
2-calvinism
3-jansenism
4-manicheanism
and perhaps puritansm

. . . . .

This caused to seriously consider joining calvinists one day, since I am love simplicity and gravity.

I hope not!

Did you know the puritan poet Milton actually argued for legalizing divorce, on the authority of Moses, ignoring the authority of Christ?

The Elector Palatine, a Calvinist, who started the 30 Years War, would tear up consecrated hosts?

Or the Bethlen Gabor, a Calvinist, wanted to destroy the Austrian Empire by allying with the Turks?

http://books.google.com/books?id=ziNYK4t6Z1cC&pg=PA424&lpg=PA424&dq=bethlen+gabor+ottomans&source=bl&ots=IlK0yu6jvO&sig=sveWfm_hyaQ0y0pZhOaTanuIhrE&hl=en&ei=I0eJSrWCOJT-M_3hkdEE&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#v=onepage&q=bethlen%20gabor%20ottomans&f=false

Caraffa · « **Reply #7 on:** August 17, 2009, 08:04:23 AM »

Quote from: spouse of Jesus

These heresies:
1-albigenism

The Albigensians favored abortion and birth control.

Quote

2-calvinism

You will not find any Calvinists who reject the liberalism of the modern world. One fellow who is popular in the US and FE is Mark Driscoll. Why? Because he says somethings that are true and can be "cool" and "relevant" while doing so. :rolleyes:

Quote

3-jansenism

There are none of these left. Besides, Jansenism's error was on free will, election, grace, etc, not on how to run a religious order. The Jesuits with thee exception of those who fell into Casuistry were also known for their strictness.

Quote

4-manicheanism

You won't find any of these around.

Quote

and perhaps puritansm

How long did the Puritan experiment last, 50-100 years? Believe it or not, some of the Puritan writings in late the 1500's were copied directly from the Jesuit priests in England.

Quote

seem very attractive to me. Since I am a serious person I love rules and laws, I love order and modesty. I am a big fan of Sts. Cure de Ars and Alfonsus Ligouri and their so-called strict catholicism. I love St. Jerome letters. I advocte reserve and gravity in relation to the opposite gender.
And yet...I saw luigi who is called caio in this forum, being accused of above heresies, because catholicism was a fun religion according to 'wholly roamin catholiuc' and 'harlequin king'. This caused to seriously consider joining calvinists one day, since I am love simplicity and gravity.

Spouse, check out this article titled Pollyanna Catholicism by Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn, an Austrian noble I believe. Don't take guys like whollyroamincatholic and HK too seriously, because to them, Catholicism is just a game. They except all of modernity and its progressivism, instead of fighting it through their everyday life. They show signs of being 'twice dead' (St. Jude 1:11-12). Now, I'm not against fun, but I understand such fun much differently than the modern world.

I have come to realize that this may be a much bigger problem within Traditional Catholicism than first expected. Bishop Williamson recently re-stated in a forceful tone this problem with what he prefers to call "fiftiesism." Why, because he is seeing it, people on this board are seeing it, other Trads in the blogosphere are seeing it. Pope Benedict XVI, who does get it right every once in a while, has stated that the Church would be better smaller and implied that the Church will have to go through a purification process. I believe that the Traditional movement may also undergo this process in time, but some of us may be the means through which it happens.