Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Truth is Eternal on May 22, 2011, 11:31:42 PM
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Is there defined Catholic Dogma on what is and what is not acceptable attire to wear to the Traditional Latin Mass?
My Uncle says I have to conform to the Church as far as the style of clothes I wear to Church. The problem I am having is I do not know what does or does not constitute proper attire to wear to the Traditional Latin Mass.
What determines what is or what is not considered a dress shirt? Is a polo shirt considered a dress shirt or does that fact the buttons don't go all the down the shirt mean this is not a dress shirt? Are black jeans wrong to wear to mass? Should the shoes I wear to Church be dress shoes? Do I have to wear a tie or is wearing suit or a dress shirt without a tie fine?
My uncle seemed to think I should not wear colored dress shirts to mass even though I have never heard before that modern dress shirts shouldn't be worn to mass.
I want to conform but first I need to make sure I am conforming to the Church and not just peoples stereotypes (Color Versus no Color) (Modern Dress Shirts Versus Traditional Dress Shirts) of what is the norm to wear to the Traditional Latin Mass.
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Years ago, there were standards of modesty (MINIMUM) put out by the Vatican.
Here are a couple of websites, and a docuмentary explaining why the minimum standards are in place.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWKipaNH83E
The Naked Truth about Modesty
http://www.salvemariaregina.info/Modesty.html
Marylike standards of dress
Also you might like to read Cardinal Siri's letter to women regarding dress.
http://www.catholicmodesty.com/Mens_Dress.html
As far as men's dress goes, my husband wears dress pants and a nice polo shirt. My son, however, enjoys wearing a button-down collared shirt, a sport coat, and a tie. Jeans are really considered work clothes, and are casual. Not saying it's absolutely WRONG to wear them, but if that's all you have, then you really don't have a choice. It is highly unlikely in this day and age, that you can't go down to a thrift store, and find yourself something nice inexpensively if you don't own any dress pants, and wear those rather than sloppy casual stuff.
A lot of it is left to common sense.
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Is there defined Catholic Dogma on what is and what is not acceptable attire to wear to the Traditional Latin Mass?
My Uncle says I have to conform to the Church as far as the style of clothes I wear to Church. The problem I am having is I do not know what does or does not constitute proper attire to wear to the Traditional Latin Mass.
What determines what is or what is not considered a dress shirt? Is a polo shirt considered a dress shirt or does that fact the buttons don't go all the down the shirt mean this is not a dress shirt? Are black jeans wrong to wear to mass? Should the shoes I wear to Church be dress shoes? Do I have to wear a tie or is wearing suit or a dress shirt without a tie fine?
My uncle seemed to think I should not wear colored dress shirts to mass even though I have never heard before that modern dress shirts shouldn't be worn to mass.
I want to conform but first I need to make sure I am conforming to the Church and not just peoples stereotypes (Color Versus no Color) (Modern Dress Shirts Versus Traditional Dress Shirts) of what is the norm to wear to the Traditional Latin Mass.
One wants to be presentable before God. For men, dress pants, nice shirt, I guess a polo would be fine but I'm not sure, dress shirt is better, it can have colour, just don't have something flashy or distracting.
As a rule if it's distracting it's a no. You don't have to wear a tie, I don't. It is better to wear a tie though.
I usually wear a suit, no tie and dress shoes. You can wear just a dress shirt and dress pants with dress shoes though. You don't need the suit jacket.
You can get some cheap dress shoes. Mine were about 30 dollars I think.
I'll give you a thumbs up for asking the question.
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Is there defined Catholic Dogma on what is and what is not acceptable attire to wear to the Traditional Latin Mass?
My Uncle says I have to conform to the Church as far as the style of clothes I wear to Church. The problem I am having is I do not know what does or does not constitute proper attire to wear to the Traditional Latin Mass.
What determines what is or what is not considered a dress shirt? Is a polo shirt considered a dress shirt or does that fact the buttons don't go all the down the shirt mean this is not a dress shirt? Are black jeans wrong to wear to mass? Should the shoes I wear to Church be dress shoes? Do I have to wear a tie or is wearing suit or a dress shirt without a tie fine?
My uncle seemed to think I should not wear colored dress shirts to mass even though I have never heard before that modern dress shirts shouldn't be worn to mass.
I want to conform but first I need to make sure I am conforming to the Church and not just peoples stereotypes (Color Versus no Color) (Modern Dress Shirts Versus Traditional Dress Shirts) of what is the norm to wear to the Traditional Latin Mass.
One wants to be presentable before God. For men, dress pants, nice shirt, I guess a polo would be fine but I'm not sure, dress shirt is better, it can have colour, just don't have something flashy or distracting.
As a rule if it's distracting it's a no. You don't have to wear a tie, I don't. It is better to wear a tie though.
I usually wear a suit, no tie and dress shoes. You can wear just a dress shirt and dress pants with dress shoes though. You don't need the suit jacket.
You can get some cheap dress shoes. Mine were about 30 dollars I think.
I'll give you a thumbs up for asking the question.
The entire thread deserves a thumbs up.
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LP said it best about what men should wear to a TLM. Even though you're a man, I'll touch up on how women should dress. They should wear chapel veils, black if they're married and white if they're not. The reason women should have their heads covered is because they are sacred, and everything that is sacred in Church is to be veiled. This is not just a matter of opinion, it is a necessity.
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They should wear chapel veils, black if they're married and white if they're not.
Never heard of that before. It certainly doesn't seem to be the rule where I went.
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I don't know the history but I think hats were the norm in most places, and mantillas were not confined to church.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fL3HtDWO3g
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You might listen to:
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20040321-Modesty-the-Virtue-That-Guards-Purity.html
Related:
http://www.audiosancto.org/categories/purity.php
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They should wear chapel veils, black if they're married and white if they're not.
Never heard of that before. It certainly doesn't seem to be the rule where I went.
It was actually a tradition before VII. Nowdays, people are just happy if you have your head covered, but my girls all wear white veils or hats, and I wear a black one, or a hat.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWKipaNH83E
The Naked Truth about Modesty
The message is good, of course. But am I the only one who finds this video unbearable? I've just watched the first two minutes, and then skipped around to various parts of it. It seems that the blasted background music in the beginning continues basically throughout the whole thing. The whole thing, it seems, has that air of evangelical sentimentality and self-conscious contemporaneity that I just can't stomach. But who knows. Maybe it'll do some good in spite of this.
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I can't tell you how edifying the advice on Cath Info is to read after having to be subjected to FE insanity for years on this topic. When I left they were a-ok with t-shirts and flip-flops much less jeans. And anyone who suggested otherwise was "obsessed" with appearances and an evil judger of souls! :laugh1:
To my shock, the same Neo-Trad indignancy to proper standards of dress at Mass was apparent on AQ, from a mod no less, though there were other sane Trads there. Much moreso than FE.
I commend the OP for trying to figure out what is right. His attitude is correct.
The tell tale sign of someone guilty of not giving God his all in dress at Mass is one who vehemently and personally attacks anyone suggesting standards or accountability for it.
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When the chapel where I generally attend Mass decided to investigate inviting the SSPX to the chapel, the question of acceptable clothing was asked of the SSPX. Since the chapel was first established in the 1970s, the priests who came to the chapel asked the ushers to make sure people who came into the church were properly dressed; at the very least, they were to explain the dress code to make sure visitors knew that they would not be welcome dressed as they were for a second visit. The SSPX said that the laity should not talk to people about their dress at Mass.
As an example of what I am saying, if a woman were to come wearing slacks, the requirement of dresses/skirts extending to below the knee would be explained. Head covering was provided. She would be asked not to approach the communion rail improperly dressed. If a man came in wearing jeans, he would be advised of the "no jeans" policy and also asked not to approach the communion rail. People in shorts/mini-skirts were not admitted to the chapel.
The SSPX explained that the priest that came to the chapel on Sundays and holy days would determine the appropriate dress in the chapel and that ushers WOULD NOT address the dress of any visitor. Period. If people were inappropriately dressed, the ushers could talk to the priest and the priest would address the issue himself. Of course, the priest is in the confessional for an hour before Mass and goes directly from the confessional to the sacristy to dress for Mass so the issue cannot usually be addressed prior to Mass.
However, based on what has been completely acceptable at our chapel as defined by the priest not addressing the issue:
Woman's skirts can now be up to a couple of inches above the knee.
Woman may wear pants
Woman need not wear anything on their heads
Jeans on men are ok as long as they're the good jeans
Earrings (in one or both ears) on men are acceptable
Hoodie's are acceptable outer-wear (though I admit he wears slacks and a tie)
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I forgot one more that I learned about last Sunday:
Men can now wear shorts.
No word on cut-offs yet.
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Have you talked with your Priest about this?
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When the chapel where I generally attend Mass decided to investigate inviting the SSPX to the chapel, the question of acceptable clothing was asked of the SSPX. Since the chapel was first established in the 1970s, the priests who came to the chapel asked the ushers to make sure people who came into the church were properly dressed; at the very least, they were to explain the dress code to make sure visitors knew that they would not be welcome dressed as they were for a second visit. The SSPX said that the laity should not talk to people about their dress at Mass.
As an example of what I am saying, if a woman were to come wearing slacks, the requirement of dresses/skirts extending to below the knee would be explained. Head covering was provided. She would be asked not to approach the communion rail improperly dressed. If a man came in wearing jeans, he would be advised of the "no jeans" policy and also asked not to approach the communion rail. People in shorts/mini-skirts were not admitted to the chapel.
The SSPX explained that the priest that came to the chapel on Sundays and holy days would determine the appropriate dress in the chapel and that ushers WOULD NOT address the dress of any visitor. Period. If people were inappropriately dressed, the ushers could talk to the priest and the priest would address the issue himself. Of course, the priest is in the confessional for an hour before Mass and goes directly from the confessional to the sacristy to dress for Mass so the issue cannot usually be addressed prior to Mass.
However, based on what has been completely acceptable at our chapel as defined by the priest not addressing the issue:
Woman's skirts can now be up to a couple of inches above the knee.
Woman may wear pants
Woman need not wear anything on their heads
Jeans on men are ok as long as they're the good jeans
Earrings (in one or both ears) on men are acceptable
Hoodie's are acceptable outer-wear (though I admit he wears slacks and a tie)
The liberalization seems to be proceeding apace.
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They should wear chapel veils, black if they're married and white if they're not.
Never heard of that before. It certainly doesn't seem to be the rule where I went.
At your SSPX chapel you mean? Well, all parishes are different. Nowadays alot of parishes will accept any headcovering, unfortunetly. The original Canon Law stated that maried women should wear black veils and un-married should wear white veils. I don't really like women wearing hats because they can sometimes be a distraction and also they're really supposed to wear veils.
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They should wear chapel veils, black if they're married and white if they're not.
Never heard of that before. It certainly doesn't seem to be the rule where I went.
At your SSPX chapel you mean? Well, all parishes are different. Nowadays alot of parishes will accept any headcovering, unfortunetly. The original Canon Law stated that maried women should wear black veils and un-married should wear white veils. I don't really like women wearing hats because they can sometimes be a distraction and also they're really supposed to wear veils.
Original Code of Canon Law (1917)
Canon 1262 § 2. Women...shall have a covered head and be modestly dressed, especially when they approach the table of the Lord.
There is nothing in Canon Law about veils and there is nothing in Canon Law requiring (or even suggesting) the color of veil. Modest hats (I have vague memories of women in nice hats when I was very young) are completely acceptable in Church. What should not be worn, I think, are kleenexes because one forgot to pack a veil before leaving for church.
Colors of veils may very well be a local custom, but it certainly cannot be considered an "immemorial custom" as western women have been wearing nice hats for centuries. Of course, we can--and should--draw the line at the ugly hat that the newspapers are showing that one of the English Royal family members (or guests, I don't know which) wore to the big wedding in England; but since it was an Anglican wedding, I guess it can be excused.
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What colors women are supposed to wear obviously didn't just come along. This was a practice of the Church before Vatican II. Hats are better than nothing, but not completely acceptable IMO.
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What colors women are supposed to wear obviously didn't just come along. This was a practice of the Church before Vatican II. Hats are better than nothing, but not completely acceptable IMO.
The main symbolism of black (especially in church) is mourning.
As I think about it, perhaps black is appropriate for my wife. She is, after all, married to me.
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The TLM I attend is celebrated by an FSSP priest. Men generally wear dress skirts, non-jean pants, and dress shoes. I wear a tie, but many don't. Women wear dresses and much less frequently slacks. Some women cover their heads, some don't. This is the practice for Sunday. On weekdays most people are on their way to work and wear whatever they have to wear at work.
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So women shouldn't be dressed like this ad I just saw??!
(http://efreepix.com/images/cath.)
:roll-laugh1:
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Matt- please don't be offended- I know you have no control over the advertisements. I just found it sort of ironic and amusing :cowboy:
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Today at work I made the mistake of telling someone I spent hours shopping for dress clothes for Church.
Coworker: They can't tell you how to dress for Church.
Me: Yes they can.
Coworker: No they can't.
Me. We are not a come as you are Church but we are an amend your life Church.
After my last comment he did not respond.
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I went by what we wore prior to v2. We wore round lace juliet style caps. I don't know the correct name for them. Or cage veils made out of netting attached to a headband in any color. Young girls did not wear black anything.
I felt that wearing a black chapel veil would be for mourning or during lent.
I didn't know that about the married vs unmarried.
I guess it sounds like it is up to the particular "parish" chapel to set the norms, as there is really no centralized agreements for Traditional Catholics.
In trying to come to agreement, how far back should we go? I am stuck in the 1940s-50s.
I feel like a stranger in a strangeland.
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It's really difficult to find dresses / skirts, or other types of clothes that don't incorporate black in there somewhere. Sometimes I think it's because without consciously realizing it, there's a pervading sense among the designers that we are in fact, "in mourning" and black represents our "culture of death."
I, too, dislike black on children and young women. The veil thing is awkward however, for me, because especially at the "beginning to be a burden to her husband age" of over 40, black is very harsh against my face ... I felt like an 80 year old Italian widow! But I guess that's vanity, isn't it? :stare:
I think I would concur that you should go ahead and take your fashion cues from the women at your parish. Try to blend in as best you can with regard to color and style, while staying modest. I've found that dressing from another time or being too frilly or feminine in style is a barrier between developing friendships with the women at my parish (and truthfully, we're stuck at Novus Ordo land) so if you have a Traditional Latin Parish, thanks be to God and be happy!
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Today at work I made the mistake of telling someone I spent hours shopping for dress clothes for Church.
Coworker: They can't tell you how to dress for Church.
Me: Yes they can.
Coworker: No they can't.
Me. We are not a come as you are Church but we are an amend your life Church.
After my last comment he did not respond.
That reminds me of a TV sitcom I saw back in the day when I still watched TV. One character goes to confession, and is surprised at the severity of his penance. Another character replies, "We are not a church for wusses."
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The minimum I'd wear is a collared shirt, khaki's, and dress shoes. Business casual would be the baseline. Anything above and beyond that is fine too.
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That seems reasonable.
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I'm sorry guys, but I got a bone to pick with those who think a collared shirt is suitable for mass. I- mean, c'mon. At a minimum, a dress tie- if you don't have a suit top- fine, but wear a tie at a minimum. I've discussed in another thread why this should be so. Its an outward sign of respect. We are not a third world country; we have no excuses.
Here's a better question: What is a GOOD reason not to wear a tie and dress "UP" for our Lord?
Work: Keep a dress shirt and tie in the car- change in the bathroom.
Cant afford it: Go to the thrift store. If you still cant afford it- pm me; I'll buy it for you.
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Kudos on the offer to buy a tie for someone.
As I have said, I wear a tie to Sunday or Holy Day Mass. I do not always wear one on weekdays. I don't think that is disrespectful, but I suppose we will have to disagree.
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Sigismund, I don't think its blatantly disrespectful, but if a man or young man attended my chapel, and decided to attend regularly, I would suggest it to him.
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Nothing wrong with doing that.
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Then we're agreed :)