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Author Topic: What do the Saints say on occasions of sin?  (Read 604 times)

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Offline AnthonyPadua

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What do the Saints say on occasions of sin?
« on: May 07, 2024, 10:59:10 PM »
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  • I am trying to better understand occasions of sin. So an occasion that can cause one to sin would be an occasion of sin, and there are remote occasions and proximate occasion. And regarding impurity it is always a sin to put yourself at the occasion in this regard.

    Are these the basics? Anything I have missed?

    But what about mortal sin?



    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What do the Saints say on occasions of sin?
    « Reply #1 on: May 08, 2024, 05:13:14 AM »
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  • I do not remember which saint said it, but basically most often initially, it is our curiosity that leads or drives us to the occasion of sin and committing sin...."I know I [probably] shouldn't go there, but I just want to see..." Don't be or let yourself be curious, you're only deceiving yourself. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What do the Saints say on occasions of sin?
    « Reply #2 on: May 08, 2024, 06:47:09 AM »
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  • Well, its degree of sinfulness depends on its proximity and to what it's proximate.  If some occasion is very likely to lead you to venial sin, the deliberately entering into such an occasion would be venial sin.  If some occasion is very likely to lead to mortal sin, then it's mortal sin to enter that occasion.  If some occasion is rather less likely to lead to mortal sin, it could be a venial sin to enter the occasion.  It can also be mitigated by necessity.  So the moral theologians, for instance, will use the scenario of a doctor having to see a female patient nude as necessity requiring entering the occasion, so that entering that occasion wouldn't by itself be sinful ... though any sins that follow would be.  I would simply consult with your confessor regarding any doubts.

    If someone were troubled by temptations to impurity, it might be an occasion of sin just for him to go out in public in the warmer summer months when women are often very immodestly dressed ... but you might be required to go out in order to go to work or go shopping for groceries.  But if there's no necessity, such as going to a movie with immodesty in it, depending on how likely it is to cause mortal sin, it could be a mortal sin to go or else venial if it's less likely.  So it depends on the individual and on the circuмstances.

    Basically, the principle is that if you will the cause, you will the effect.  If I hold a loaded gun up to someone's head and fire, the person's death is practically inevitable and a moral certainty.  You can't just think, "I mean to pull the trigger but don't will the death of the person."  But if I'm shooting rounds into a crowd for fun, without intending to kill someone, death is not inevitable, but highly likely, so that too would be a grave occasion.  If I shoot rounds into the air, it's less likely, though still possible that someone would die, so there one could make a bit of a separation between shooting rounds into the air (because you want to have some fun) and an accident that could result if it happens to hit someone.  In this case, the death of an innocent person would be a grave evil, so the first two scenarios would be mortal sin in themselves, even if the person doesn't die or suffer grave injury.  In the second scenario, if I shoot into a crowd but no one is injured, I still commit a mortal sin for doing it because it's very likely that someone COULD have been killed or gravely injured  In the third, it would probably be more venial, since the possibility of someone getting hurt would be remote and not reasonably likely.  If the possible effect is less serious, where someone might get slightly injured because of some action I took, even if it were very likely, the action I took would be more venial because the possible outcome would be less serious.

    Perhaps a rule of thumb is that if a decision to enter an occasion is effectively the same as a decision to commit a mortal sin.  I know that if I watch some movie that it's very likely I would commit a mortal sin, then watching the movie is the same thing as giving consent to the sin, because you're consenting to the cause of the sin ... even IF, for some reason, you didn't actually commit a sin that time out (perhaps you were interrupted watching it before the "bad parts").  I sit down to watch the film, but then before I commit the sin I'm called away for some emergency.  Just sitting down to watch it would be in and of itself mortal sin, even if it didn't get to that point, or if you got to the "bad parts" and for some reason that time it did not lead to serious sin.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What do the Saints say on occasions of sin?
    « Reply #3 on: May 08, 2024, 07:07:29 AM »
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  • And regarding impurity it is always a sin to put yourself at the occasion in this regard.

    As per above, no, not always.  There could be a justifying reason, and the reason has to be proportionate to the degree of likelihood and to the degree of gravity.  Perhpaps a matrix would help.  It's an interplay between 3 factors.

    1) gravity of the potential sin
    2) likelihood that it would lead to sin
    3) degree of necessity

    While this isn't 100% sure and some of these could be debated to an extent, it would give you some idea of the dynamic.

    Grave Sin + High Likelihood + No Necessity = Grave Sin
    Grave Sin + High Likelihood + Moderate Necessity = Venial Sin
    Grave Sin + High Likelihood + Grave Necessity = No Sin (remember, just for entering the occasion, not excusing from subsequent sin itself)
    Grave Sin + Moderate Likelihood + No Necessity = Grave Sin
    Grave Sin + Moderate Likelihood + Moderate Necessity = Venial Sin
    Grave Sin + Moderate Likelihood + Grave Necessity = No Sin
    Grave Sin + Small Likelihood + No Necessity = Venial Sin
    Grave Sin + Small Likelihood + Moderate Necessity = No Sin
    Grave Sin + Small Likelihood + Grave Necessity = No Sin
    Venial Sin + High Likelihood + No Necessity = Venial Sin
    Venial Sin + High Likelihood + Moderate Necessity = Venial Sin
    Venial Sin + High Likelihood + Grave Necessity = No Sin
    Venial Sin + Moderate Likelihood + No Necessity = Venial Sin
    Venial Sin + Moderate Likelihood + Moderate Necessity = No Sin
    Venial Sin + Moderate Likelihood + Grave Necessity = No Sin
    Venial Sin + Small Likelihood + No Necessity = No Sin
    Venial Sin + Small Likelihood + Moderate Necessity = No Sin
    Venial Sin + Small Likelihood + Grave Necessit = No Sin

    It's something like that, but of course there are more granular degrees than just Small, Moderate, High in terms of  Likelihood.  Of course, in every-day situations, you just have to go with your best judgment and can't pull out a calculator or protactor to figure this out.  This is just an illustration of the interplay between these 3 considerations.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: What do the Saints say on occasions of sin?
    « Reply #4 on: May 08, 2024, 07:36:21 AM »
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  • I do not remember which saint said it, but basically most often initially, it is our curiosity that leads or drives us to the occasion of sin and committing sin...."I know I [probably] shouldn't go there, but I just want to see..." Don't be or let yourself be curious, you're only deceiving yourself.
    What about going to the beach or the gym? I wouldn't go to either of these because I was curious something.

    Though the women dress poorly.


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: What do the Saints say on occasions of sin?
    « Reply #5 on: May 08, 2024, 07:38:34 AM »
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  • Well, its degree of sinfulness depends on its proximity and to what it's proximate.  If some occasion is very likely to lead you to venial sin, the deliberately entering into such an occasion would be venial sin.  If some occasion is very likely to lead to mortal sin, then it's mortal sin to enter that occasion.  If some occasion is rather less likely to lead to mortal sin, it could be a venial sin to enter the occasion.  It can also be mitigated by necessity.  So the moral theologians, for instance, will use the scenario of a doctor having to see a female patient nude as necessity requiring entering the occasion, so that entering that occasion wouldn't by itself be sinful ... though any sins that follow would be.  I would simply consult with your confessor regarding any doubts.

    If someone were troubled by temptations to impurity, it might be an occasion of sin just for him to go out in public in the warmer summer months when women are often very immodestly dressed ... but you might be required to go out in order to go to work or go shopping for groceries.  But if there's no necessity, such as going to a movie with immodesty in it, depending on how likely it is to cause mortal sin, it could be a mortal sin to go or else venial if it's less likely.  So it depends on the individual and on the circuмstances.

    Basically, the principle is that if you will the cause, you will the effect.  If I hold a loaded gun up to someone's head and fire, the person's death is practically inevitable and a moral certainty.  You can't just think, "I mean to pull the trigger but don't will the death of the person."  But if I'm shooting rounds into a crowd for fun, without intending to kill someone, death is not inevitable, but highly likely, so that too would be a grave occasion.  If I shoot rounds into the air, it's less likely, though still possible that someone would die, so there one could make a bit of a separation between shooting rounds into the air (because you want to have some fun) and an accident that could result if it happens to hit someone.  In this case, the death of an innocent person would be a grave evil, so the first two scenarios would be mortal sin in themselves, even if the person doesn't die or suffer grave injury.  In the second scenario, if I shoot into a crowd but no one is injured, I still commit a mortal sin for doing it because it's very likely that someone COULD have been killed or gravely injured  In the third, it would probably be more venial, since the possibility of someone getting hurt would be remote and not reasonably likely.  If the possible effect is less serious, where someone might get slightly injured because of some action I took, even if it were very likely, the action I took would be more venial because the possible outcome would be less serious.

    Perhaps a rule of thumb is that if a decision to enter an occasion is effectively the same as a decision to commit a mortal sin.  I know that if I watch some movie that it's very likely I would commit a mortal sin, then watching the movie is the same thing as giving consent to the sin, because you're consenting to the cause of the sin ... even IF, for some reason, you didn't actually commit a sin that time out (perhaps you were interrupted watching it before the "bad parts").  I sit down to watch the film, but then before I commit the sin I'm called away for some emergency.  Just sitting down to watch it would be in and of itself mortal sin, even if it didn't get to that point, or if you got to the "bad parts" and for some reason that time it did not lead to serious sin.
    Thanks for the responses. Very useful.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What do the Saints say on occasions of sin?
    « Reply #6 on: May 08, 2024, 07:52:08 AM »
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  • What about going to the beach or the gym? I wouldn't go to either of these because I was curious something.

    Though the women dress poorly.

    Some of this does depend on you.

    Necessity to Go to Gym:  Moderate (depending on how much you need it for your health, whether you have alternatives)
    Necessity to Go to Beach:  Low

    Rest would depend on you.  Is it a proximate occasion where there's a high likelihood of sin in going to either place?  I would imagine the likelihood would be greater in going to the beach than in going to the gym, but both could be proximate occasions, depending on the individual.

    If going to beach has a high likelihood of sin, since there's little necessity, I would say it would be grave sin to go there.  In addition, don't forget the aspect of scandal.  You would walk around completely non-plussed by the scantily clad women, but it's unbecoming and scandalous to be there.  So, IMO, unless there's grave necessity, I would say that the beach should be off limits.  Of course, there are other considerations, i.e. whether you can find a beach that is not crowded (some do exist).  And it's also true that there are some beaches where the women (and men) might as well be naked, whereas others you could hardly distinguish from just being out at a Metro Park.

    There might be good reason to go to a gym, and so a relatively small chance of committing a sin might be justified and entail no sin, or venial sin if the occasion were a little more proximate.  If the likelihood of sin is high, then it would be grave sin to go, since there would be insufficient justification (you can find other ways to exercise).  Again, other considerations can weigh in.  There are some gyms where it's nearly all men there and/or the women tend not to dress scantily, whereas others are veritable "meat markets".  If it's the latter type of gym, then there's also the possibility of scandal.

    In terms of scandal, other things weigh in as well.  It would be worse for a priest or religious to go to a beach with lots of scantily-clad women than for a layman, due to the increased scandal.

    It's not easy and there's no simple calculus.  You're best off just following the "What would Jesus do?" and "What would Our Lady do?" mentality.  This is why St. Paul says that for those who love God, there is no law.  If you're motivated by the positive of loving God, you're not needing to sit down with a calculator to figure out "how far can I go without sinning?", or "what can I get away with?" ... since you're positively motivated by loving God to the point that sin is excluded entirely.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What do the Saints say on occasions of sin?
    « Reply #7 on: May 08, 2024, 08:12:35 AM »
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  • What about going to the beach or the gym? I wouldn't go to either of these because I was curious something.

    Though the women dress poorly.
    You know there is much to tempt you at the beach, don't go. Simple. One simple word we all know: "no," too easily gives way to the other simple word - "but."

    It's not worth it.

    "I know I [probably] shouldn't go there, but I just want to see..."

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: What do the Saints say on occasions of sin?
    « Reply #8 on: May 08, 2024, 02:09:36 PM »
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  • You know there is much to tempt you at the beach, don't go. Simple. One simple word we all know: "no," too easily gives way to the other simple word - "but."

    It's not worth it.

    "I know I [probably] shouldn't go there, but I just want to see..."

    Emphasis on "You know there is much to tempt you" more than on "at the beach" as beach per se.

    Before 8 AM or so, a non-urban beach with an unobstructed view of the ocean can instead be an occasion of prayerful wonder at God's Creation.

    Change these parameters and the beach becomes an occasion of whichever vice plagues that person. Maybe not the 6th/9th but rather (for example) rash judgment, envy, pharisaism, etc.

    Not that we should ever underestimate the risks of genuine near occasions for what they are objectively, but these tend to travel with the person as much as these are a function of one's surroundings.
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus