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Author Topic: How much does a man need to make to support a family?  (Read 3503 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Re: How much does a man need to make to support a family?
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2023, 11:47:19 AM »
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  • The devil will throw every argument at the wall, to see what sticks. He doesn't really care what demoralizes you away from getting married and having a natural-sized family. As long as it happens. Especially if you are Traditional Catholic, the devil doesn't want you reproducing.

    It could be the overpopulation myth, evolution, selfishness ("each kid costs as much as a Ferrari"), despair ("Each kid costs 1.8 million to raise to age 18", "All Women Are Like That", "No good/chaste women left") and so forth.

    I've even seen, on a secular forum, a meme about "having daughters is the ultimate cuck". Since a man can't control what sex his children will be, this alone could discourage some men from fatherhood. Regardless of what you think of this meme, the fact remains that this is one more piece of crap satan is throwing at the barn wall, to see if it sticks. If it discourages even 1 out of 100 men, then the devil is happy.

    About the meme in question: the text, written alongside a screenshot of Pippin (from Lord of the Rings) smoking a pipe, points out that you're just putting in countless time & effort to raise a daughter who will ultimately be some strange man's plaything. Which is TRUE unless you're going to raise her Trad Catholic (or equivalent -- there is no equivalent of course, but you know what I mean). I couldn't imagine wanting my girls to go to public school, dive into Social Media, and "date" according to the rules of the world. Let's just say there's a big difference for ALL PARTIES CONCERNED between sending your daughter off to be a whore at school, and giving her in marriage to an honorable God-fearing man who will marry and take care of her "till death do us part". NOT THE SAME THING. And I also note that this whole meme has incestuous undertones. You are only "cucked" when your *wife* messes around with another man. But I suppose there is investment, and a certain "ownership" in both cases, so the meme has a point. But again, the true answer to that meme is: raise your daughter(s) to be a chaste, God-fearing woman, and you won't have to worry!
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    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: How much does a man need to make to support a family?
    « Reply #31 on: March 02, 2023, 01:46:49 PM »
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  • My 2 youngest sons are unmarried.  They aren't even ready to court yet.  I was overseas recently and met a nice couple from Poland.  When they found out I had 2 single sons the father blurted out excitedly "We have 6 daughters!"  I don't think you would see that level of enthusiasm in the US.  It's nice to know that some parts of the world still value an American man, even if it isn't here.


    Offline Drolo

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    Re: How much does a man need to make to support a family?
    « Reply #32 on: March 02, 2023, 02:00:27 PM »
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  • As a young man, I find the responses in this thread very encouraging. Though I haven't used that silly calculator, I recall being exposed to a certain absurd video back in 8th grade in which similar claims were made about the cost of raising children. One particularly memorable statistic was that, apparently, the cost of a single child was the same as a Ferrari!

    Such lies, along with others that I have encountered on the same subject, made me naturally quite cynical about starting a family. The greatest antidote to this insidious propaganda I can recommend to my fellow young men out there is to meet and pay attention to the married Trad men who "are doing it", as Matthew put it.

    Their example will inspire you, and (in the case of those like myself, who were not born into the traditional Faith) you will begin see family life in its proper light and dignity.

    I found these two posts on Telegram, and though (from my guessing) they were not written by a Catholic, there is truth in what he writes:
    From a certain limit, yes, but I think a minimum is needed so that you can afford to support a family with a single salary. An extreme example, for you can understand that I try to tell you: You earn €1,200 tax-free per month in 12 payments, a very common salary in Spain.  You live in Madrid, it is true that it is the most expensive Region, but you also have a high percentage of unemployment if you are not a highly qualified and experienced professional, you probably cannot choose where to work. Just the fact of having a job can already cost effort.

    Rent a house, in Puente de Vallecas, which is a working-class neighborhood, a lower-class neighborhood, a 50m flat, cost 650€/month.

    https://www.pisos.com/alquilar/piso-palomeras_bajas28018-32554599004_108900/

    Just renting a basic flat with 2 bedrooms, bathroom, living room and kitchenette, you have already spent more than half of your salary. How do you support a family with this? Above with instability and job insecurity.

    I insist, this house in Madrid is one of the cheap ones, in good neighborhoods a house like this exceeds €1,000/month.

    I'm only talking about renting, obviously you can't even consider buying a house.

    I am not saying that this is the main reason why people don't have children, feminism that destroys relationships between men and women, selfishness, sɛҳuąƖ immorality, substituting children for pets, etc., are also relevant factors. . But when you combine low salaries, job instability, and ridiculously expensive housing, it becomes very difficult to have children.

    Offline Drolo

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    Re: How much does a man need to make to support a family?
    « Reply #33 on: March 02, 2023, 02:28:26 PM »
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  • Outside of Madrid, it depends, in Barcelona, the second city with the most job offer, they are the same or more expensive, outside, they can drop something, for example, in Cartagena, a medium-sized city with relatively low prices, you can rent something like that in a Similar neighborhood, working class but without many crime problems, for €400/month:

    https://www.fotocasa.es/es/alquiler/vivienda/cartagena/patio-amueblado/176973797/d?from=list

    This is more reasonable. Even so, what happens in Spain with housing is insane. And it's a great ballast for those who want to make a family. Not to mention that as your wife wants to divorce and denounces you for "Gender-based Violence" to take an advantage in the divorce, absurd things that happen in Spain due to discriminatory laws against men, you're screwed. So you have to think very very well before getting married here.



    Offline Everlast22

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    Re: How much does a man need to make to support a family?
    « Reply #34 on: March 02, 2023, 02:43:49 PM »
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  • I think people need to start "going Greek" and live with each other's relatives or co sharing property. 1 out of 15 men at church from the ages 18 - 40 who are in good health and Faith "ready" to be married aint gonna cut it. I'm telling you right now, things need to change.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: How much does a man need to make to support a family?
    « Reply #35 on: March 02, 2023, 02:49:14 PM »
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  • I think people need to start "going Greek" and live with each other's relatives or co sharing property. 1 out of 15 men at church from the ages 18 - 40 who are in good health and Faith "ready" to be married aint gonna cut it. I'm telling you right now, things need to change.
    We're doing that right now, and it works out pretty well having an extra hand when we need it.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: How much does a man need to make to support a family?
    « Reply #36 on: March 02, 2023, 02:52:42 PM »
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  • Someone pointed out how insane it was that in the history of civilizations, it has never before come to pass that the youth cant set out on their own (in their society) and start a new household/family and have children.

    When that DOES, in fact, happen in a given society, you know with certainty that such a society is doomed.

    Savage/barbarian/pagan tribes in Africa don't have this problem! Where in the world, besides our defunct society/culture, has it become impossible for the youth to set out on their own, build or buy their own dwelling, get married, and begin having children -- you know, the future, the next generation?

    Only in modern-day America. Which tells you IT CAN'T LAST. Not sustainable. We're doomed. Something's gotta give. Revolution? War? Something.
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    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: How much does a man need to make to support a family?
    « Reply #37 on: March 02, 2023, 03:57:25 PM »
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  • Someone pointed out how insane it was that in the history of civilizations, it has never before come to pass that the youth cant set out on their own (in their society) and start a new household/family and have children.

    When that DOES, in fact, happen in a given society, you know with certainty that such a society is doomed.

    Savage/barbarian/pagan tribes in Africa don't have this problem! Where in the world, besides our defunct society/culture, has it become impossible for the youth to set out on their own, build or buy their own dwelling, get married, and begin having children -- you know, the future, the next generation?

    Only in modern-day America. Which tells you IT CAN'T LAST. Not sustainable. We're doomed. Something's gotta give. Revolution? War? Something.

    Something


    Offline Ekim

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    Re: How much does a man need to make to support a family?
    « Reply #38 on: March 02, 2023, 06:37:13 PM »
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  • You missed the point ... entirely.  If by opting to "delay" starting a family you mean, NFP after marriage, then negatory.  If you mean waiting until you've save away something financial, of course you can.  But God sometimes brings the right person into your life before then, and circuмstances differ for everyone.  Question wasn't whether you COULD wait, but whether you were REQUIRED to wait.  So you swung and missed several times in a single response.

    As for living extravagantly, of course it's not sinful by itself, but it's contrary to the evangelical counsels and militates against perfection, our true goal in life.  If we spend a lot of money on frivolities while our neighbors suffer from great need, will we be judged as those who when Our Lord was hungry, we did not give him to eat?  While it's possible for the rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, Our Lord said it was easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.

    There's a huge range between sewing your own clothes / milking cows and living in a 10-million-dollar mansion while your neighbor is in dire need.
    No disrespect, but I think you missed the point.  The perspective / virtue of frugality was already mentioned.  There was no need for me to repeat.  The point I was making is that you can still lead a virtuous life / start a family even if you are wealthy.  Income does not necessarily have a correlation to sin…lots of homeless sinners as well as wealthy ones.  Poor / frugal people can also be stingy and not help their neighbors.  Lastly, from a Catholic perspective, marriage is a requirement to start a family…so that also goes without saying.  No one should even consider marriage if they are not able to support a family.  The level of support is what is in question.  Each person needs to choose that for themselves, knowing the crosses and responsibilities that financial position entails.  I read a story of a man being accused of selfish extravagance because he purchased a Mercedes Benz.  He replied that his purchase helped to provide jobs for 112 factory workers….just a thought.

    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: How much does a man need to make to support a family?
    « Reply #39 on: March 03, 2023, 10:17:05 AM »
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  • As a young man, I find the responses in this thread very encouraging. Though I haven't used that silly calculator, I recall being exposed to a certain absurd video back in 8th grade in which similar claims were made about the cost of raising children. One particularly memorable statistic was that, apparently, the cost of a single child was the same as a Ferrari!

    Such lies, along with others that I have encountered on the same subject, made me naturally quite cynical about starting a family. The greatest antidote to this insidious propaganda I can recommend to my fellow young men out there is to meet and pay attention to the married Trad men who "are doing it", as Matthew put it.

    Their example will inspire you, and (in the case of those like myself, who were not born into the traditional Faith) you will begin see family life in its proper light and dignity.

    I found these two posts on Telegram, and though (from my guessing) they were not written by a Catholic, there is truth in what he writes:

    This, not only for marriage-seeking young men, but also the minds of young women and the in-laws too are poisoned by the purposeful and coordinated propaganda. It all aims in the same direction to take down the family that God intended all the way back from the pages of Genesis.  
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus

    Offline Bataar

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    Re: How much does a man need to make to support a family?
    « Reply #40 on: March 03, 2023, 05:11:38 PM »
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  • I guess this is the one benefit of remaining single. I don't have to worry about this. Probably the only benefit though.


    Offline Cornelius

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    Re: How much does a man need to make to support a family?
    « Reply #41 on: March 03, 2023, 05:30:46 PM »
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  • I guess this is the one benefit of remaining single. I don't have to worry about this. Probably the only benefit though.

    Yeah... Some benefit.
    One day at a time.

    Offline Bataar

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    Re: How much does a man need to make to support a family?
    « Reply #42 on: March 03, 2023, 05:40:56 PM »
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  • Yeah... Some benefit.
    When you've been single as long as I have, you take all the benefits you can :)

    Offline Cornelius

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    Re: How much does a man need to make to support a family?
    « Reply #43 on: March 03, 2023, 06:03:51 PM »
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  • When you've been single as long as I have, you take all the benefits you can :)

    I guess being unmarried doesn't have to automatically mean being completely alone. Adult men aren't exactly keen on "making friends," though.
    One day at a time.

    Offline Bataar

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    Re: How much does a man need to make to support a family?
    « Reply #44 on: March 03, 2023, 07:49:59 PM »
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  • I guess being unmarried doesn't have to automatically mean being completely alone. Adult men aren't exactly keen on "making friends," though.
    It's nearly impossible. The vast majority of men out there are married and usually have kids. This makes it nearly impossible to ever get beyond a "buddy" stage with them. Because you're just a buddy, you're last on their list of priorities to spend any time with. You never get invited to family parties and events because you're just a buddy with the guy and not a friend of the wife as well (how could you be, you've never had the opportunity to even meet her). The vast majority of the time when you invite them to do something, they usually can't because they have family commitments.

    I work out of my office 3 days a week and from home the other two days. Other than going to work on those days and going to Mass on Sundays, I'm usually home by myself.