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Author Topic: What Formal Apostasy Looks Like  (Read 2453 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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What Formal Apostasy Looks Like
« on: May 18, 2022, 08:48:13 AM »
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    • We fling this term around a bit too loosely, but here’s an actual example of a formal act of apostasy:

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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What Formal Apostasy Looks Like
    « Reply #1 on: May 18, 2022, 09:08:19 AM »
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    • Kindof looks like this to me:
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What Formal Apostasy Looks Like
    « Reply #2 on: May 18, 2022, 09:11:45 AM »
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    • Seriously, however, there is a huge difference between simply being a Novus Ordo Catholic and formal apostasy.  Now, many NO Catholics are in apostasy, but simply belonging to the Conciliar Church does not suffice ... because it's very possible to be in material error.  I know many NO Catholics who adhere to the Conciliar Church because they THINK it's the Catholic Church, so their formal motive is still Catholic.

    Notice also how this is different than "sincerity".  Maybe this priest is sincere and has come to believe in Orthodoxy, but that does not render him a merely material schismatic.  He's a formal schismatic at this point.  Period.

    This notion of "sincerity" has been warped (due to the rise of subjectivism) into being the chief factor in "formal" error.  That is not the case.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What Formal Apostasy Looks Like
    « Reply #3 on: May 18, 2022, 09:15:52 AM »
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    • It's interesting (if the translation is correct) that they call themselves Orthodox Catholic.

    Unfortunately, the phenomenon of the Conciliar Church have caused a lot of people to doubt the claims of Roman Catholicism.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: What Formal Apostasy Looks Like
    « Reply #4 on: May 18, 2022, 10:52:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 18, 2022, 08:48:13 AM
    We fling this term around a bit too loosely, but here’s an actual example of a formal act of apostasy:


    At my age, I have become one not easily moved by emotion and feeling --- what good does it do? --- but I have to admit, I find this almost too painful to watch.  It's the spiritual equivalent of watching a snuff film or a ѕυιcιdє.
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    Offline SperaInDeo

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    Re: What Formal Apostasy Looks Like
    « Reply #5 on: May 18, 2022, 11:04:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 18, 2022, 09:15:52 AM
    It's interesting (if the translation is correct) that they call themselves Orthodox Catholic.

    They are officially called the “Orthodox Catholic Church”

    I assume they had to make their “orthodox” BS fit with the Creed they recite. 
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: What Formal Apostasy Looks Like
    « Reply #6 on: May 18, 2022, 11:07:41 AM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on May 18, 2022, 10:52:56 AM
    At my age, I have become one not easily moved by emotion and feeling --- what good does it do? --- but I have to admit, I find this almost too painful to watch.  It's the spiritual equivalent of watching a snuff film or a ѕυιcιdє.

    I had a similar reaction.  That poor man.  A damnation in progress.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SperaInDeo

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    Re: What Formal Apostasy Looks Like
    « Reply #7 on: May 18, 2022, 11:16:46 AM »
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    • I find it interesting how the Priest makes him renounce that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Son. It is my understanding that within the EO they dispute amongst themselves whether or not He actually does proceed from the Son. My understanding is that the problem they actually have with Catholics is the Pope's authority to modify the creed of an Ecuмenical Council. But this is the greater problem of EO: inconsistency of doctrine - but that's what you get when nobody's "in charge".

    Scripture condemns this Priest:

    John 16:7
    But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go: for if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

    Luke 24:49
    And I send the promise of my Father upon you: but stay you in the city till you be endued with power from on high.

    John 20:22
    When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: What Formal Apostasy Looks Like
    « Reply #8 on: May 18, 2022, 11:33:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: SperaInDeo on May 18, 2022, 11:16:46 AM
    inconsistency of doctrine - but that's what you get when nobody's "in charge".
    Just like what us in tradland are suffering without a legitimate Pope.
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What Formal Apostasy Looks Like
    « Reply #9 on: May 18, 2022, 12:02:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on May 18, 2022, 10:52:56 AM
    At my age, I have become one not easily moved by emotion and feeling --- what good does it do? --- but I have to admit, I find this almost too painful to watch.  It's the spiritual equivalent of watching a snuff film or a ѕυιcιdє.

    Yes, that's precisely the sense that any Catholic who has faith should have watching it.  It puts my stomach in knots.  Of course, most Novus Ordites would say, "whatever suits him best."

    Having prospective seminarians watch this video and write down their reaction to it might be a pretty strong test of Catholic orthodoxy.  If they aren't upset or disturbed watching this, they can pack their bags.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What Formal Apostasy Looks Like
    « Reply #10 on: May 18, 2022, 12:09:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: SperaInDeo on May 18, 2022, 11:16:46 AM
    I find it interesting how the Priest makes him renounce that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Son. It is my understanding that within the EO they dispute amongst themselves whether or not He actually does proceed from the Son. My understanding is that the problem they actually have with Catholics is the Pope's authority to modify the creed of an Ecuмenical Council. But this is the greater problem of EO: inconsistency of doctrine - but that's what you get when nobody's "in charge".

    This demonstrates quite clearly that the Orthodox aren't just some nice people who are confused, as the Conciliar ecuмenists make them out to be.  They're quite pertinacious.

    What's a tragic shame is that they reject intercommunion with Catholics (refuse the Last Sacraments, refuse them Communion, etc.) while the NO is perfectly fine with the Orthodox receiving the Sacraments.  I recall some talking head on EWTN radio talking about how Orthodox are welcome to receive Catholic sacraments, but that the Orthodox will not allow Catholics to receive Sacraments from them.  So in a sense the Orthodox have much more conviction regarding the necessity of correct faith to belong to the Church and be saved than these NO pseudo-Catholics.

    We have the V2 papal claimants asserting that the Procession of the Holy Ghost problem is just a simple misunderstanding and we really believe the same thing about it, and the differences are highly nuanced, to the point that the NO have been removing "and the Son" from the creeds, essentially caving to the Orthodox heresy.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What Formal Apostasy Looks Like
    « Reply #11 on: May 18, 2022, 12:12:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on May 18, 2022, 11:33:35 AM
    Just like what us in tradland are suffering without a legitimate Pope.

    To a point.  Traditional Catholics all agree on the dogmas taught by the Church and agree that we must assent to them.  Problem with Trad Catholics is when they elevate their theological speculation regarding the current Crisis to the level of dogma, when it's nothing of the sort.  I've long called for that puerile (and borderline schismatic) behavior to cease.  SV vs. R&R vs. whatever ... disagreement is fine, but stop excommunicating people who don't agree with you.

    Even while we've had Popes, there have been certain groups at odds (e.g. Thomists vs. Molinists) ... and there's nothing wrong with that regarding matters that have not (at least yet) been defined by the Church.  Problem is when they started accusing each other of heresy, and the Church said "knock it off".
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    Offline SperaInDeo

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    Re: What Formal Apostasy Looks Like
    « Reply #12 on: May 18, 2022, 01:36:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on May 18, 2022, 11:33:35 AM
    Just like what us in tradland are suffering without a legitimate Pope.

    Spanking round one: V2 and NO, result: Tradland

    I would say we’ve got spanking round two incoming based upon what we see in Tradland. This time it probably hinges upon your separation from the world. The Conciliar Church is full-bore for the NWO and most of Tradland is playing footsie with it. The days grow darker, where is the light?

    Unless, of course, Jesus and Mary let us off the hook due to the seemingly absent shepherd, the Bishop of Rome. 
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    Offline SperaInDeo

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    Re: What Formal Apostasy Looks Like
    « Reply #13 on: May 18, 2022, 01:45:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 18, 2022, 12:12:28 PM
    Traditional Catholics all agree on the dogmas taught by the Church and agree that we must assent to them. 

    Boy, that Pope guy sure was useful for 1900 years! The EO have to be jealous, right?

    Quote
    Problem with Trad Catholics is when they elevate their theological speculation regarding the current Crisis to the level of dogma, when it's nothing of the sort.  I've long called for that puerile (and borderline schismatic) behavior to cease.  SV vs. R&R vs. whatever ... disagreement is fine, but stop excommunicating people who don't agree with you.

    It's basically Modernism. "New Dogma time! Because modern world bad. Because Conciliar Church bad. Me not Pope. But me smart. You dumb."

    Quote
    Even while we've had Popes, there have been certain groups at odds (e.g. Thomists vs. Molinists) ... and there's nothing wrong with that regarding matters that have not (at least yet) been defined by the Church.  Problem is when they started accusing each other of heresy, and the Church said "knock it off".

    I savor the thought that I may see the day when a Pope annihilates Modernism and ends the cannibalistic pissing matches in Tradland.
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: What Formal Apostasy Looks Like
    « Reply #14 on: May 19, 2022, 01:18:04 AM »
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    • Just look at Assisi (1986, The Deuce) if you want to see apostasy in action.  This is child's play in comparison and, unless I am mistaken, he is not actually abandoning the Christian religion altogether, which is what it means to apostatize. See Mortalium animos.
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    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."
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