Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Disputaciones on December 26, 2020, 12:51:38 PM
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With Lent just around the corner, I wanted to get to the bottom of this issue.
According to the traditio.com fasting guidelines here (http://traditio.com/cal.htm), it says you can have milk at any time during fast days, but I don't know where they get that from.
All it says is "as observed since 1952" but they don't give any source.
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Milk has not been prohibited in my lifetime. I don't believe it has been prohibited in the history of the Church. We are not vegans. We are Catholics.
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Milk has not been prohibited in my lifetime. I don't believe it has been prohibited in the history of the Church. We are not vegans. We are Catholics.
Milk and cheese and eggs used to be prohibited on some fast days, including Lent. I think it still is in some of the Eastern Rites and it is among some of the Eastern Orthodox. Fasting rules used to be much stricter but the Catholic Church became lenient a little at a time, not just after Vatican II.
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With Lent just around the corner...
All it says is "as observed since 1952" but they don't give any source.
Lent is just around the corner?
As to your question, I would ask you "Did Vatican II start AFTER 1952?"
Drink milk; or don't. Your call. Chocolate milk is another matter altogether. ;)
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Lent is just around the corner?
As to your question, I would ask you "Did Vatican II start AFTER 1952?"
Drink milk; or don't. Your call. Chocolate milk is another matter altogether. ;)
It's a month and a half away, that's pretty close.
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It's a month and a half away, that's pretty close.
So, is that enough time to do some actual research? Or have we become THAT lazy?
There are numerous, easily-located resources which will provide the history and the answer.
got milk?
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Milk has not been prohibited in my lifetime. I don't believe it has been prohibited in the history of the Church. We are not vegans. We are Catholics.
At one point, both Eastern and Western Christianity forbade dairy during Lent, so it's a valid question. Now it's just the East.
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At one point, both Eastern and Western Christianity forbade dairy during Lent, so it's a valid question. Now it's just the East.
It has been quite some time since it was not an issue in the West. The Liturgical Year, among other readily available sources, provides the entire history.
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Milk and cheese and eggs used to be prohibited on some fast days, including Lent.
Can you or Minnesota provide more information, please? I don’t worry my self about what eastern rites or the Orthodox prescribe.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasting_and_abstinence_in_the_Catholic_Church (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasting_and_abstinence_in_the_Catholic_Church)
It's wikipedia, I know, not the best source, but it goes into the history a bit and I don't see why they would lie about this topic.
Also the Catholic encyclopedia:
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05789c.htm (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05789c.htm)
and
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01067a.htm (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01067a.htm)
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So, is that enough time to do some actual research? Or have we become THAT lazy?
There are numerous, easily-located resources which will provide the history and the answer.
got milk?
You're quite the prick aren't you? If I knew where to find the answer I wouldn't be asking here would I?
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From Thomas Aquinas
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From Thomas Aquinas
Ash Wednesday and Good Friday were “black fasts.” This means no food at all.
Other days of Lent: no food until 3pm, the hour of Our Lord’s death. Water was allowed, and as was the case for the time due to sanitary concerns, watered-down beer and wine. After the advent of tea and coffee, these beverages were permitted.
No animal meats or fats.
No eggs.
No dairy products (lacticinia) – that is, eggs, milk, cheese, cream, butter, etc.
Sundays were days of less liturgical discipline, but the fasting rules above remained.
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https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05789c.htm
Ecclesiastical approbation. Nihil Obstat. May 1, 1909. Remy Lafort, Censor. Imprimatur. +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York.
In some places eggs, milk, butter, cheese and fish are prohibited, while bread, cake, fruit, herbs and vegetables are allowed. In other places, milk, eggs, cheese, butter and fish are permitted, owing either to custom or to Indult. This is the case in the United States. However, in order to form judgments perfectly safe concerning this point, the Lenten regulations of each diocese should be carefully read. Finally, a little tea, coffee, chocolate or such like beverage together with a morsel of bread or a cracker is now allowed in the morning. Strictly speaking, whatever may be classified under the head of liquids may be taken as drink or medicine at any time of the day or night on fasting days. Hence, water, lemonade, soda, water, ginger ale, wine, beer and similar drinks may be taken on fasting days outside meal time even though such beverages may, to some extent, prove nutritious. Coffee, tea, diluted chocolate, electuaries made of sugar, juniper berries, and citron may be taken on fasting days, outside meal time, as medicine by those who find them conducive to health. Honey, milk, soup, broth, oil or anything else having the nature of food, is not allowed under either of the two categories already specified.
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https://www.cmri.org/adsum/adsum-2016-12.pdf (https://www.cmri.org/adsum/adsum-2016-12.pdf)
On a fast day, such as a weekday in Lent or an Ember day, those who are obliged to fast may drink between meals, as often as they wish, liquids which are not very nourishing. Such liquids would be tea, coffee, wine, beer, and (according to the generous interpretation of most of the bishops of the United States in their regulations concerning fast and abstinence) milk, and undiluted fruit juices. But on a fast day one who is obliged to fast may not take between meals such liquids as soup, egg-nog, cream, etc., which are practically as nourishing as solid food.
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http://www.sgg.org/for-newcomers/fast-and-abstain/
Rules of Fast
The laws of fast apply to persons between the ages of twenty-one and fifty-nine. On a fast day one may eat one full meal and two light meatless meals, which together would not equal the main meal. Meat may be taken at the principal meal, except on days of complete abstinence. Liquids such as water, milk, and fruit juices may be taken between meals.
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It's wikipedia, I know, not the best source, but it goes into the history a bit and I don't see why they would lie about this topic.
On the contrary, with regard to anything having more moral significance than World Series and Superbowl scores, I respectfully suggest that you ought to assume that Wikipedia is lying—or to put the matter less censoriously, is propagating error—until you find corroboration that it isn't.
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You're quite the prick aren't you? If I knew where to find the answer I wouldn't be asking here would I?
Yes, I am. That does not excuse your laziness or lack of willingness to do some basic, old-fashioned research on the topic, provided it actually means anything to you. Stupid and/or lazy don't get a pass just because some people are hypersensitive softies.
I told you one place you can find the answer: The Liturgical Year by Dom Gueranger. It is an absolute treasure and is available for free online. It is 15 volumes and the matter in question is covered at length in the volume on Septuagesima (Volume IV).
Do some research, go drink some (chocolate) milk, know that I don't expect you to thank me, shut your mouth and move on to bigger and better things.
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Milk and cheese and eggs used to be prohibited on some fast days, including Lent. I think it still is in some of the Eastern Rites and it is among some of the Eastern Orthodox. Fasting rules used to be much stricter but the Catholic Church became lenient a little at a time, not just after Vatican II.
And Deo Gratias for the Church legitimately updating Herself as the times required. If nothing was ever to be judged, changed, or modified, then Jesus would have just carved several stone tablets with everything laid out explicitly, and left them with the Apostles.
But no, instead He established an authority/hierarchy including a single head (the Pope, St. Peter) to "loose and bind" on earth.
Mankind has been devolving since Old Testament times. Basically our collective vigor/genes/constitution/health is getting worse every century. And after World War 2 our food became mass-produced, agri-business slop with little nutrition and no trace minerals.
God didn't mean for us to starve to death, or destroy our health. PROVIDENTIALLY, the fasting rules have been changed over the centuries to meet the changing needs of mankind.
That having been said, what happened at Vatican II was ridiculous. The NewChurch only kept TWO fast days, and those are obviously thrown out by most Novus Catholics, since they aren't used to fasting or abstaining. I know "good" Novus Catholics who visit a Barbecue restaurant on Good Friday -- one old lady claimed, "I think they have fish". When they got there, of course they didn't have fish. Did that bother them? Of course not. They shrugged with an "oh well" and ordered the fried chicken. Moral of the story? You can't have a habit with a period of "every 60 days" or "every 200 days". Something that infrequent is always rounded down to NEVER. Always.
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Yes, I am. That does not excuse your laziness or lack of willingness to do some basic, old-fashioned research on the topic, provided it actually means anything to you. Stupid and/or lazy don't get a pass just because some people are hypersensitive softies.
I told you one place you can find the answer: The Liturgical Year by Dom Gueranger. It is an absolute treasure and is available for free online. It is 15 volumes and the matter in question is covered at length in the volume on Septuagesima (Volume IV).
Do some research, go drink some (chocolate) milk, know that I don't expect you to thank me, shut your mouth and move on to bigger and better things.
Have you ever asked a question here for which you could find the answer yourself?
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https://www.cmri.org/adsum/adsum-2016-12.pdf
(https://www.cmri.org/adsum/adsum-2016-12.pdf)
On a fast day, such as a weekday in Lent or an Ember day, those who are obliged to fast may drink between meals, as often as they wish, liquids which are not very nourishing. Such liquids would be tea, coffee, wine, beer, and (according to the generous interpretation of most of the bishops of the United States in their regulations concerning fast and abstinence) milk, and undiluted fruit juices. But on a fast day one who is obliged to fast may not take between meals such liquids as soup, egg-nog, cream, etc., which are practically as nourishing as solid food.
LOL. Our joke at STAS was that if you could get it through a straw, it was fine, and people joked about blending up Big Macs.
I think they were poking fun of a theologian who laid down that principle.
But, in all honesty, things like egg-nog and a protein shake ... these do not seem restricted, and I'm not sure I buy this source.
There was actually a bit of variety among theologians. Many said you could drink beer between means; others that you could not One of them who said you could have beer, then suggested that you could munch on pretzels or peanuts so that the beer doesn't upset your stomach (ne potus noceat) :laugh1:
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And Deo Gratias for the Church legitimately updating Herself as the times required. If nothing was ever to be judged, changed, or modified, then Jesus would have just carved several stone tablets with everything laid out explicitly, and left them with the Apostles.
But no, instead He established an authority/hierarchy including a single head (the Pope, St. Peter) to "loose and bind" on earth.
Well, in that case, the only true Fast Days are Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, with abstinence on Fridays. :laugh1: :laugh1: :laugh1:
... unless you're a sedevacantist of course.
Well, actually, unless you're a dogmatic sedevacantist. Otherwise, a doubtful law doesn't oblige, so unless you're dogmatically certain one way or the other, you can probably pick which observance you want to do, the Traditional one or the Modern one.
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That having been said, what happened at Vatican II was ridiculous. The NewChurch only kept TWO fast days, and those are obviously thrown out by most Novus Catholics, since they aren't used to fasting or abstaining. I know "good" Novus Catholics who visit a Barbecue restaurant on Good Friday -- one old lady claimed, "I think they have fish". When they got there, of course they didn't have fish. Did that bother them? Of course not. They shrugged with an "oh well" and ordered the fried chicken. Moral of the story? You can't have a habit with a period of "every 60 days" or "every 200 days". Something that infrequent is always rounded down to NEVER. Always.
Indeed, the NO bishops won't come out and say that it's a mortal sin to not observe even these fast days. I have extended family in the NO who routinely just dispense themselves for the most trivial reasons from the Friday abstinence ... if it's slightly inconvenient. Ah, I'd have to run to the store to buy $20/lb. salmon, and since anything less is just barbaric, well, steak it is.
I don't think it's just about quantity though. There's this attitude among these NovusOrdites that being strict about observing rules and regulations is legalistic and basically like the Pharisees. What really counts is to love our neighbor (i.e. ... work at a soup kitchen for a day once every few years to make yourself feel better). Love is about telling ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs that they're fine and not judging them. If I embrace a sodomite couple, then I'm showing LUV, but in keeping the fast, well, that's like the hypocrites.
They also don't believe in the Church's authority. Everyone should, according to them, just do what their conscience tells them ... i.e. do what they feel like.
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Indeed, the NO bishops won't come out and say that it's a mortal sin to not observe even these fast days. I have extended family in the NO who routinely just dispense themselves for the most trivial reasons from the Friday abstinence ... if it's slightly inconvenient. Ah, I'd have to run to the store to buy $20/lb. salmon, and since anything less is just barbaric, well, steak it is.
I don't think it's just about quantity though. There's this attitude among these NovusOrdites that being strict about observing rules and regulations is legalistic and basically like the Pharisees. What really counts is to love our neighbor (i.e. ... work at a soup kitchen for a day once every few years to make yourself feel better). Love is about telling ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs that they're fine and not judging them. If I embrace a sơdơmite couple, then I'm showing LUV, but in keeping the fast, well, that's like the hypocrites.
They also don't believe in the Church's authority. Everyone should, according to them, just do what their conscience tells them ... i.e. do what they feel like.
No, they do not have to "run to the store to buy $20/lb salmon". They can have macaroni and cheese with a side serving of green beans cooked with onion (no ham, bacon, etc.). They can have a can of pinto beans and a couple of squares of buttered cornbread. They can have fish sticks and rice. Any of these meals is nutritious, simple, and really pretty good.
I know this is preaching to the choir, but not all meals have to have flesh meat. My mother grew up very poor on a tobacco farm with a patch set aside for vegetables, and they more often than not, didn't have meat with their meals. Nobody lacked anything they needed.
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No, they do not have to "run to the store to buy $20/lb salmon". They can have macaroni and cheese with a side serving of green beans cooked with onion (no ham, bacon, etc.). They can have a can of pinto beans and a couple of squares of buttered cornbread. They can have fish sticks and rice. Any of these meals is nutritious, simple, and really pretty good.
Well, of course. I obviously wasn't agreeing with them, just illustrating their mentality.
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Brown rice and beans with parmesan is a staple meal for me year round.
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Brown rice and beans with parmesan is a staple meal for me year round.
Sounds good to me. I like yellow rice (Mahatma preferred) and black beans myself, with a dab of sour cream. It will fill you up, and the beans and rice complement each other, to make a good, amino-acid- and protein-rich meal.
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Brown rice and beans with parmesan is a staple meal for me year round.
Ditto!
I use basmati wholemeal rice with butter, and beans, with grano padano. For a treat a spoon of home made salsa’l pomodoro.