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Author Topic: Denial of Hell. Vatican II started this ball rolling in the Catholic world  (Read 957 times)

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Offline grumpy9

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I've had it shown to me that Vatican II began this process of essentially eliminating references to Hell, though not all references. I have been to many NO "masses" and Hell has not been entirely done away with in the liturgy. But Hell is rarely discussed (if ever?) by the priest in the homily.

Then I run across Mormons who apparently (am I wrong here?) do not believe in an eternal Hell, despite claiming to beliee the Bible where Hell is mentioned many times, often with the word "eternal" attached.. Mt 25:31 and etc.

So how do you deal with people you are talking to about "religion" when they say such things (as I have often heard on internet forums) as "What kind of a God tortures His creatures forever just for being a sinner?"

(I haven't heard that EXACT comment but I'm paraphrasing what I have heard...)

You know.. the old "A good father wouldn't forever punish his child" argument. (That IS verbatim)

I look around and see how, in my own life and in the lives of others, it seems that God does not relieve people of their torments, or at least not quickly (by a long shot). And so.. this is a valid argument, or so it seems.

I do believe exactly as the True Catholic Church has always taught on Hell, so no need to evangelize me or anything.. I do not agree w/ the novus ordo folks.. It's just that I don't know exactly what to tell people, other than God is so far beyond us, we cannot understand Him 100% (and things like that).

Offline EWPJ

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  • One of the main issues is that people have lost reverance and fear for Almighty God.  They don't respect Him and think they should be able to just do whatever they want when God set rules and groundwork that we must follow to not only have a better life but also to avoid Eternal Hell.  So right away there's a pride involved, when the Almighty God who created our world and everything in it and gave us life has dominion over us and people don't want to accept that.  They look at his rules as too hard and thus come to the conclusion that "He didn't really mean it" or they want to find a belief system that they like and confirms them in their sins,    

    From my observations most people reject God and His Religion based on sins of the 6th and 9th that they want to love more than the Almighty Creator.  Or they're emoting and making an idol out of friends and family that they consider more important than Almighty God and reject EENS to make themselves feel better or to try to get everyone and their mom into Heaven because it makes God sound "nicer" when that's just not what happens.  They're always implying "what can God do for me?" instead of what they can do for Almighty God, you know The Creator that could snuff you out with just a thought and who is infinite power and majesty?  He is to be respected and feared not rejected and jeered.  

    Most of the "why would God create so many people just so they end up in Hell?" arguments are from people emoting and not using discernment to take things to their logical conclusion.  If people constantly reject God and His rules and ways that He set for us to follow then it follows logically that they would reject Him in Eternity and He gives them a more suitable place that they freely choose to go to due to their constant rejection of Him.  

    Sometime people will follow with "what about all those poor babies?!  They didn't have choice?!  Your God is so mean!, etc." Actually they did, we just couldn't see it, but God does, as He is the master of time and space and knows everything everyone would have done no matter how long they lived and He is not subject to time and it's in His Mercy that He allows this to happen although in our finite and limited intelligence we cannot comprehend all the specifics which is where Faith also comes in.    


    Offline grumpy9

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  • One of the main issues is that people have lost reverance and fear for Almighty God.  They don't respect Him and think they should be able to just do whatever they want when God set rules and groundwork that we must follow to not only have a better life but also to avoid Eternal Hell.  So right away there's a pride involved, when the Almighty God who created our world and everything in it and gave us life has dominion over us and people don't want to accept that.  They look at his rules as too hard and thus come to the conclusion that "He didn't really mean it" or they want to find a belief system that they like and confirms them in their sins,   

    From my observations most people reject God and His Religion based on sins of the 6th and 9th that they want to love more than the Almighty Creator.  Or they're emoting and making an idol out of friends and family that they consider more important than Almighty God and reject EENS to make themselves feel better or to try to get everyone and their mom into Heaven because it makes God sound "nicer" when that's just not what happens.  They're always implying "what can God do for me?" instead of what they can do for Almighty God, you know The Creator that could snuff you out with just a thought and who is infinite power and majesty?  He is to be respected and feared not rejected and jeered. 

    Most of the "why would God create so many people just so they end up in Hell?" arguments are from people emoting and not using discernment to take things to their logical conclusion.  If people constantly reject God and His rules and ways that He set for us to follow then it follows logically that they would reject Him in Eternity and He gives them a more suitable place that they freely choose to go to due to their constant rejection of Him. 

    Sometime people will follow with "what about all those poor babies?!  They didn't have choice?!  Your God is so mean!, etc." Actually they did, we just couldn't see it, but God does, as He is the master of time and space and knows everything everyone would have done no matter how long they lived and He is not subject to time and it's in His Mercy that He allows this to happen although in our finite and limited intelligence we cannot comprehend all the specifics which is where Faith also comes in.   


    I was, as I read this, thinking: "Well said...!" But then I read the last paragraph and.. I don't really get it.
    Are you saying as I guess St Augustine said that unbaptized babies go to Hell?
    Well that was hard for me to believe also, but then I thought to myself that God can save people even after they're in Hell if He chooses to and it seems He would give those babies just as much a chance to be in Heaven as those who were baptized. I don't know... But I really believe that everyone has to go to Hell b4 they get to Heaven.. St Paul said "It is necessary that we undergo many hardships in order to enter Heaven" and life itself has taught me that in spades. 

    Offline EWPJ

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  • I was, as I read this, thinking: "Well said...!" But then I read the last paragraph and.. I don't really get it.
    Are you saying as I guess St Augustine said that unbaptized babies go to Hell?
    Well that was hard for me to believe also, but then I thought to myself that God can save people even after they're in Hell if He chooses to and it seems He would give those babies just as much a chance to be in Heaven as those who were baptized. I don't know... But I really believe that everyone has to go to Hell b4 they get to Heaven.. St Paul said "It is necessary that we undergo many hardships in order to enter Heaven" and life itself has taught me that in spades.

    Hell is defined as eternal separation from God, some people get lost in the fire part of it but it's the eternal separation that defines Hell, so yes unbaptized babies go to Hell but there is Church Teaching that says they go to a part of Hell where there is no fire (what most people call Limbo or Limbus ie the very outer part of Hell) vs St. Augustine's teaching and many others until around the 1200s or so that they go to a Hell with fire but that it is very mild.  Both theories posit that they must go there as a result of their Original Sin.  

    Once someone is in Hell they cannot get out of it so your statement about people having to go to Hell to get to Heaven is actually heretical.  Maybe you meant it another way but that's the way it came across.  If you are implying Purgatory (not permanent) then many will have to go there first before they're deemed pure enough for Heaven.

    Your quote 
    "It is necessary that we undergo many hardships in order to enter Heaven" is true in the sense that we have to suffer a lot in life and go through many trials in life but at your Particular Judgment you either get eternal Heaven or eternal Hell but you may have to go through Purgatory to get to Heaven first.

    As in my previous post, if we see a baby die without Baptism we have to trust God and leave the human sentimentalism out of it that He made the right decision, why would we dare question Him?  He is infinitely Merciful and Infinitely just and our limited intelligence cannot comprehend why He does or allowed this or that thing but it stands to reason that He knew every decision they would have made and is not subject to time so to some people who don't see the big picture and are blinded by human respect He may seem "unfair" but that's actually blasphemous and He owes Heaven to no one.  

    We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.  Fear of God has all but disappeared in this culture and society in general.  Sorry for digressing some but hopefully I answered your queries.


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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  • I've had it shown to me that Vatican II began this process of essentially eliminating references to Hell, though not all references. I have been to many NO "masses" and Hell has not been entirely done away with in the liturgy. But Hell is rarely discussed (if ever?) by the priest in the homily.

    Then I run across Mormons who apparently (am I wrong here?) do not believe in an eternal Hell, despite claiming to beliee the Bible where Hell is mentioned many times, often with the word "eternal" attached.. Mt 25:31 and etc.

    So how do you deal with people you are talking to about "religion" when they say such things (as I have often heard on internet forums) as "What kind of a God tortures His creatures forever just for being a sinner?"

    (I haven't heard that EXACT comment but I'm paraphrasing what I have heard...)

    You know.. the old "A good father wouldn't forever punish his child" argument. (That IS verbatim)

    I look around and see how, in my own life and in the lives of others, it seems that God does not relieve people of their torments, or at least not quickly (by a long shot). And so.. this is a valid argument, or so it seems.

    I do believe exactly as the True Catholic Church has always taught on Hell, so no need to evangelize me or anything.. I do not agree w/ the novus ordo folks.. It's just that I don't know exactly what to tell people, other than God is so far beyond us, we cannot understand Him 100% (and things like that).
    It is natural that a man gets arrested and thrown into prison when he commits a crime.

    Is it the fault of the man or the jury for prison sentence?

    Surely it's the man's fault. Tne jury simply administers justice according to the law.

    So too is it with the justice of God.


    Offline grumpy9

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  • Once someone is in Hell they cannot get out of it so your statement about people having to go to Hell to get to Heaven is actually heretical. 
    I don't appreciate you saying I am a heretic, especially since you don't even bother, it seems to understand exactly what I am saying. What I said is actually in agreement with what YOU said about "the outer part of Hell" aka Limbo. If unbaptized babies go there, and that is the old teaching, then yes, they go to Hell, but no, it is not like what unrepentant sinners go through (fire)... So your own words show that I am NOT believing heresy, not to mention the fact that I was just postulating, speculating anyway... (ME: It seems He would give those babies just as much a chance to be in Heaven as those who were baptized. I don't know. )

    Then there's the fact that I'm not a pope or even a priest, which means even if I am heretical, I am not leading others astray

    But I am not a heretic in any case so that is moot.

    Offline grumpy9

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  • Maybe you meant it another way but that's the way it came across.  If you are implying Purgatory (not permanent) then many will have to go there first before they're deemed pure enough for Heaven..........



    OK, I guess I should have read beyond the part that irritated me. but still, I am getting tired of being accused of nefarious stuff... I've been accused all my life of just whatever... I did not have a Christian family, still do not, as none of them seem to have "come to Jesus" in any kind of objective way. (I am not judging, just giving my perceptions of reality here.. I cannot help having the view that  I have, although I love them and pray for them. I doubt they give me a 2nd thought EVER but that is them..).
    In any case, I apologize for coming on so strong in my first response to what you say here.. I guess that's what happens when people are just constantly thwarted and persecuted, from family to whomever.. (long story..)

    Offline EWPJ

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  • OK, I guess I should have read beyond the part that irritated me. but still, I am getting tired of being accused of nefarious stuff... I've been accused all my life of just whatever... I did not have a Christian family, still do not, as none of them seem to have "come to Jesus" in any kind of objective way. (I am not judging, just giving my perceptions of reality here.. I cannot help having the view that  I have, although I love them and pray for them. I doubt they give me a 2nd thought EVER but that is them..).
    In any case, I apologize for coming on so strong in my first response to what you say here.. I guess that's what happens when people are just constantly thwarted and persecuted, from family to whomever.. (long story..)

    It's ok sir, it's not like I haven't been out of turn to someone before.  Perhaps you are aptly named haha.  For the record I didn't call you a heretic, I said if you were implying that once someone is in Hell they can go to Heaven then that statement is heretical but you may have been erring in good Faith (if that's what you were even saying.) 

    If you want to PM your long story feel free to do so.  I think everyone here has one. Many of us here have suffered through something due to trying to live the Catholic Faith.  As someone here put it, if we're not suffering something then we're definitely doing something wrong.  I've lost a lot of "friends," "family," lucrative career opportunities, and more because I would prefer to try to follow Christ and His Church.  I'm sure your story may be similar.