Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: soulguard on January 01, 2014, 11:42:37 AM
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I have the opportunity to go on a retreat at a monastery later this month, and am wondering what people have to say about it. It is a novus ordo monastery without the TLM. I went to a retreat before and enjoyed it, and found it to be a spiritual help, and though the novus ordo monasteries are without TLM the monks i met last time were very orthodox. Do you think I ought to go?
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The fact that you had to ask for advice because you're doubtful should answer your own question.
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No
Keep your time and money for a St Ignatius retreat which usually happen in the summer months. One for men and one for women. It would take a whole lifetime of internet research to reach any where near the what you would get for your Faith in 5 days on a SI retreat. Other than that there is the Marian Retreat next may by Fr Loschi. This is 3 days but mixed. Also very very worthwhile. The May retreat is not set in stone yet.
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I have the opportunity to go on a retreat at a monastery later this month, and am wondering what people have to say about it. It is a novus ordo monastery without the TLM. I went to a retreat before and enjoyed it, and found it to be a spiritual help, and though the novus ordo monasteries are without TLM the monks i met last time were very orthodox. Do you think I ought to go?
Be sure to tell them first thing that you're sedevacantist or lean heavily that direction, whichever is the case.
No--you should not go. The danger to your own soul far outweighs the possibility of converting them or anything else good coming out of it.
It never ceases to amaze me that people rarely take to heart the words the Lord taught us to pray--"lead us not into temptation."
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TCat,
Do you not get that the NO, which you would most likely be expected to attend, is sacrilegious? And how can you think it's valid? I know you've cited some sources about its validity. But if you're sedevacantist, by whose authority was it promulgated? Certainly if you're sede, you believe Paul VI to have been an anti-Pope.
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If you are so interested in visiting and possibly joining a monastery, why not look into the Resistance ones?
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I have the opportunity to go on a retreat at a monastery later this month, and am wondering what people have to say about it. It is a novus ordo monastery without the TLM. I went to a retreat before and enjoyed it, and found it to be a spiritual help, and though the novus ordo monasteries are without TLM the monks i met last time were very orthodox. Do you think I ought to go?
I'm just going to use a (paraphrased from my recollection) quote from Father Bolduc (RIP) in regards to your question.
"Some people keep asking me, 'Can I go to this wedding,' or 'Can I go to that funeral' or 'Can I go to this Novus Ordo retreat?' They think I'm going to give them a different answer to the same questions. Are their heads so thick that the message isn't getting through, or are their heads so empty that it goes in one ear and out the other?"
His answer was always no.
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How old are you?
Stay away from the Novus Ordo. More importantly do the following:
Learn your faith deeply, consult traditional Catholic sources for your deepening of the faith, understand the principles of the spiritual life, seek counsel from a traditional Catholic priest whom you can trust, spend less time on the forums, fulfill your duty of state and lastly pray for the grace of perseverance.
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If you are so interested in visiting and possibly joining a monastery, why not look into the Resistance ones?
The Resistance only has one monastery as far as I know, and they speak spanish.
It is not reasonable to expect me to learn spanish. I hate that language.
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If you are so interested in visiting and possibly joining a monastery, why not look into the Resistance ones?
The Resistance only has one monastery as far as I know, and they speak spanish.
It is not reasonable to expect me to learn spanish. I hate that language.
???
Lot of similarities between Spanish and Latin. Certainly much more than English and Latin. What do you think of Latin?
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TCat,
Do you not get that the NO, which you would most likely be expected to attend, is sacrilegious? And how can you think it's valid? I know you've cited some sources about its validity. But if you're sedevacantist, by whose authority was it promulgated? Certainly if you're sede, you believe Paul VI to have been an anti-Pope.
I think people on here know that I think the new rites are valid, but are a sacrilege.
If the mass of the early church was valid, the new mass is valid. I dont care about pope's authority, it is not necessary to introduce a rite which is more like the early church forgotten rites. The church substitutes validity for anything doubtful about priest's intention. As for the new ordination rites. There were more basic rites in the early church with something as simple as laying of hands and saying "I ordain you",
therefore the new ordination rites are valid. Anyone who says otherwise is being overly legalistic about it all. The highest mission of the church is to save souls, and that being the case, if it would save souls for someone to become a priest and he is ordained in a doubtful ceremony, the church substitutes for the failings and he is a priest. The debate over the ordination rites is pure garbage. If it was valid then it is valid now. Just because Pope Leo 13th declared the Anglican rite invalid does not mean that it is invalid if the Catholic church does the same thing. The novus ordo is still the Catholic church, there are Catholics amongst the novus ordo, not many, but there are.
So I think that by going to a retreat I get to meet Catholics and discuss things of relevance to my faith and my future. I go there to get information and answers and I dont think it is a bad thing at all, in fact I think it is noteworthy. Some people spend too much time stuck in their own little groups and cut off from the rest of the world to know the merits of such a thing. It is easy to criticize isint it, sitting there at your computer, posting an opinion just to fit in with the other anti-novus ordo on here, but the world is bigger than the computer, and perhaps there is a reality that some of you are unwilling to recognize.
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If you are so interested in visiting and possibly joining a monastery, why not look into the Resistance ones?
The Resistance only has one monastery as far as I know, and they speak spanish.
It is not reasonable to expect me to learn spanish. I hate that language.
???
Lot of similarities between Spanish and Latin. Certainly much more than English and Latin. What do you think of Latin?
C'mear, dont be trolling me just because I said I might go on a pilgrimage. Spanish is nothing like Latin, and you know that. Doesnt change the fact that I hate spanish, and Im not learning spanish, which is a disgusting language, just because some resistance monastery speaks only spanish. They ought to speak english, but then again they are made of the rejects of the rejects as +williamson says.
I find it interesting that people tell me to join a Resistance group and then tell me not to go to the novus ordo. Your heretic of a pope is mentioned in both masses is he not? So dont get superior with me. If you can compromise than so can I.
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Hi SG, I'm in blue.
I think people on here know that I think the new rites are valid, but are a sacrilege. That is probably accurate. That represents my view on the new mass, at least distilled.
If the mass of the early church was valid, the new mass is valid. That does not follow. Sacramental theology requires matter, form and intent. As long as the Novus Ordo satisfies those three things, it is "valid" inasmuch as transubstantiation occurs-- though of course, it must be performed by a true priest, and many traditional Catholics have doubts about the new orders, and a doubt against a sacrament obliges one to not participate in it. I dont care about pope's authority, it is not necessary to introduce a rite which is more like the early church forgotten rites. No it wasn't necessary, but what do you mean you don't care about the pope's authority? The church substitutes validity for anything doubtful about priest's intention. Actually, no She doesn't. Where did you learn this? As for the new ordination rites. There were more basic rites in the early church with something as simple as laying of hands and saying "I ordain you",
therefore the new ordination rites are valid. A previously valid rite, if employed, is valid-- yes; however the new rites of orders are not identical to any previous rite, so they must be judged on their own merits. In the case of the episcopacy in particular, Pius XII teaches that the form of the sacrament must express both the order and grace received, and must express them unequivocally (i.e., must express them BOTH, and separately) and such a form is not found in the new rite of episcopal consecration, ergo the doubts). Anyone who says otherwise is being overly legalistic about it all. Are they? Sacramental theology is actually quite simple as concerns validity. Only three things are required, and one of those things (intention) is presumed to occur so long as the other two are present (form and matter). To insist that these conditions be fulfilled is hardly legalistic, it is the perennial teaching of the Church. The highest mission of the church is to save souls, and that being the case, if it would save souls for someone to become a priest and he is ordained in a doubtful ceremony, the church substitutes for the failings and he is a priest. You are confusing concepts. The Church supplies JURISDICTION when it is lacking (and only under certain conditions) but She does NOT provide orders, and She does not provide for validity when it is lacking. Anyways, the mission of the Catholic Church is to save souls; the mission of the Novus Ordo Church is to confuse souls and obfuscate the truth, so it's quite apropos that the NO Church would be full of doubtful sacraments. The debate over the ordination rites is pure garbage. If it was valid then it is valid now. Except that the new rites share only accidental properties with older valid rites, the essential form is quite different. Just because Pope Leo 13th declared the Anglican rite invalid does not mean that it is invalid if the Catholic church does the same thing. True, but the argument isn't that "because the Anglicans don't have valid orders, the Novus Ordo doesn't either. The argument is that the Novus Ordo orders have a defect of form, and are therefore either invalid or doubtful, but in either case one must stay away if he regards them as such. The novus ordo is still the Catholic church, there are Catholics amongst the novus ordo, not many, but there are. The Catholic Church CANNOT give error, so it cannot be said that the Catholic Church and the Novus Ordo are one and the same. There are Catholics laboring under the unjust yoke of the Novus Ordo, yes, but that is not to say that the Novus Ordo Church is Catholic. It does not follow. In fact, the opposite follows.
So I think that by going to a retreat I get to meet Catholics and discuss things of relevance to my faith and my future. I go there to get information and answers and I dont think it is a bad thing at all, in fact I think it is noteworthy. Some people spend too much time stuck in their own little groups and cut off from the rest of the world to know the merits of such a thing. It is easy to criticize isint it, sitting there at your computer, posting an opinion just to fit in with the other anti-novus ordo on here, but the world is bigger than the computer, and perhaps there is a reality that some of you are unwilling to recognize.
I don't have time to address your last paragraph, but what I've said so far should hopefully make you see that the problems in attending a Novus Ordo retreat far outweigh any perceived benefits.
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I think people on here know that I think the new rites are valid, but are a sacrilege.
Do you not realize that by attending the NO that you are participating in that sacrilege and that it is sinful to participate in sacrilege?
If the mass of the early church was valid, the new mass is valid. I dont care about pope's authority, it is not necessary to introduce a rite which is more like the early church forgotten rites.
No papal authority necessary? Just anything a freemason, 6 heretical "ministers," and a jew come up with is ok?
So I think that by going to a retreat I get to meet Catholics and discuss things of relevance to my faith and my future. I go there to get information and answers and I dont think it is a bad thing at all, in fact I think it is noteworthy.
What "information and answers" do you hope to get?
Some people spend too much time stuck in their own little groups and cut off from the rest of the world to know the merits of such a thing.
Yes--I cut myself off from attending heretical, schismatic, sacrilegious, pagan, hindu, moslem, Jєωιѕн, confucian, buddhist, baptist, methodist, lutheran, congregationalist, mormon, pentecostal, "church of Christ," "Christain church," "Jehovah's witness," voodoo, Native American, hippie new ageism, etc. "religious" get-togethers, services, etc. Even if conciliardom is still "Catholic," it contains a poisonous/hazardous amount of some of those others that I mentioned.
Play with fire and you'll get burned. Going to a conciliarist retreat is playing with fire and voluntarily walking into temptation? Remember ever asking God in prayer to "lead us not into temptation?"
It is easy to criticize isint it, sitting there at your computer, posting an opinion just to fit in with the other anti-novus ordo on here, but the world is bigger than the computer, and perhaps there is a reality that some of you are unwilling to recognize.
I don't do things to "fit-in"--I'm an equal opportunity offender and probably "fit-in" less than practically anyone on CI.
Let me tell you about the reality that you are unwilling to recognize. You are not going to change conciliardom. How much greater of a man and of a Catholic do you think you are compared to Archbishop Lefebvre to think you can do so? I think you have a teenager's dose of arrogance and naivete in you.
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I would go.
If that is what you want to do then do it.
If you believe that the NO is sacrilege but valid, then there is no reason for you to debate the issue with people who feel differently.
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If that is what you want to do then do it.
The universal guide of morality and decision-making...
Why can I so easily hear those words rolling off His Humbleness' tongue? But who am I to judge...
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If that is what you want to do then do it.
The universal guide of morality and decision-making...
Why can I so easily hear those words rolling off His Humbleness' tongue? But who am I to judge...
Note how you took my comment out of context, forgetting that I took into account the fact he believes the NOM to be valid but sacrilegious .
Go ahead and judge away, bucko.
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If that is what you want to do then do it.
The universal guide of morality and decision-making...
Why can I so easily hear those words rolling off His Humbleness' tongue? But who am I to judge...
Note how you took my comment out of context, forgetting that I took into account the fact he believes the NOM to be valid but sacrilegious .
Go ahead and judge away, bucko.
What are y'all missing about participating in sacrilege being sinful???
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Hilarious.
These self-righteous children excoriate me all over this message board, and then post that they want to go to Novus Ordo monasteries on retreat and hate romance languages.
I hereby call for soulguard to get treated at least as shabbily as I do, on the grounds that I won't set foot in a NO monastery. He wants to go to one. That makes him more liberal than me.
So, someone should threaten to burn him, that's what happened to me.
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Soulguard, In honesty I'd go to the retreat. Monasteries are relatively safe from the full spirit of the robber council. The Purpose of Monasteries is prayer and giving glory to god through a contemplative lifestyle. If it can make your soul better go. The SSPX is affiliated with a group of Benedictines in Nevada. Avoid tricky theological matters.
You won't get your clothes dirty if you don't jump in the mud
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Soulguard, In honesty I'd go to the retreat. Monasteries are relatively safe from the full spirit of the robber council. The Purpose of Monasteries is prayer and giving glory to god through a contemplative lifestyle. If it can make your soul better go. The SSPX is affiliated with a group of Benedictines in Nevada. Avoid tricky theological matters.
I went to a NO Monastery on a retreat once. It was Benedictine. At the consecration, everyone gathered around the altar (even the lay brothers and lay visitors) and raised our hands, apparently concelebrating. We went to confession as well, and the monk-confessor told me that is was 'virtually impossible' to commit a mortal sin.
This was not so many years ago.
In my old diocese, the Franciscan monastery had a horrible reputation for sodomy. Everyone in the diocese knew it was a homo-palace.
Probably the worst example was San Anselmo when Rembert Weakland was rector. The sheer number of stories that circulate about the place is amazing, and the fact that Weakland eventually exposed himself as a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ and financial criminal rather removes any basis for disbelieving them.
So yeah....go to that NO monastery...they're harmless. NOT!
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If you are so interested in visiting and possibly joining a monastery, why not look into the Resistance ones?
The Resistance only has one monastery as far as I know, and they speak spanish.
It is not reasonable to expect me to learn spanish. I hate that language.
???
Lot of similarities between Spanish and Latin. Certainly much more than English and Latin. What do you think of Latin?
C'mear, dont be trolling me just because I said I might go on a pilgrimage. Spanish is nothing like Latin, and you know that. Doesnt change the fact that I hate spanish, and Im not learning spanish, which is a disgusting language, just because some resistance monastery speaks only spanish. They ought to speak english, but then again they are made of the rejects of the rejects as +williamson says.
I find it interesting that people tell me to join a Resistance group and then tell me not to go to the novus ordo. Your heretic of a pope is mentioned in both masses is he not? So dont get superior with me. If you can compromise than so can I.
Pilgrimage? LM_O
Pilgrimaging into conciliardom...
I agree with you that R&R has its problems. But a sede thinking the NO is valid and thinking of "pilgimaging" into a conciliarist monastery is flat out schizophrenic.
And another thing--I only had 2 years of high school Spanish. But I am well aware of the similarities with Latin. I think you have a lot of learning to do. I thought Soulguard was of a better temperament for learning than TCat was. But he, too, of late wants to teach rather than learn and isn't very receptive of the responses he doesn't like to questions that he asks.
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If you are so interested in visiting and possibly joining a monastery, why not look into the Resistance ones?
The Resistance only has one monastery as far as I know, and they speak spanish.
It is not reasonable to expect me to learn spanish. I hate that language.
???
Lot of similarities between Spanish and Latin. Certainly much more than English and Latin. What do you think of Latin?
C'mear, dont be trolling me just because I said I might go on a pilgrimage. Spanish is nothing like Latin, and you know that. Doesnt change the fact that I hate spanish, and Im not learning spanish, which is a disgusting language, just because some resistance monastery speaks only spanish. They ought to speak english, but then again they are made of the rejects of the rejects as +williamson says.
I find it interesting that people tell me to join a Resistance group and then tell me not to go to the novus ordo. Your heretic of a pope is mentioned in both masses is he not? So dont get superior with me. If you can compromise than so can I.
:tv-disturbed:
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You learn something new every day.
SG thinks that the NO is valid but sacrilegious.
A valid sacrilege. Isn't that an oxymoron?
Why would anyone go to a sacrilege? A valid sacrilege is even worse.
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Before I became a trad, I went to a NO Monastery in Cullman, Alabama. For a NO Monastery they were pretty orthodox. They used a lot of Latin in the Mass although they do have a table instead of an Altar...but it was a NO place after all.
Would I go there now? Probably not. In fact I can say no. There is a Franciscan Monastery near where I live that is NO but very orthodox. They don't allow people to receive Communion in the paws and they use a paten during Communion. One of the priests there has filled in for our Latin Mass priest and he is very orthodox. I do and have gone there for confession and would do so again. If for some reason the Bishop ever ended our Latin Mass (God forbid!) I would probably go there for Mass...but I would make every attempt to find another Latin Mass first.
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If you are so interested in visiting and possibly joining a monastery, why not look into the Resistance ones?
The Resistance only has one monastery as far as I know, and they speak spanish.
It is not reasonable to expect me to learn spanish. I hate that language.
???
Lot of similarities between Spanish and Latin. Certainly much more than English and Latin. What do you think of Latin?
C'mear, dont be trolling me just because I said I might go on a pilgrimage. Spanish is nothing like Latin, and you know that. Doesnt change the fact that I hate spanish, and Im not learning spanish, which is a disgusting language, just because some resistance monastery speaks only spanish. They ought to speak english, but then again they are made of the rejects of the rejects as +williamson says.
I find it interesting that people tell me to join a Resistance group and then tell me not to go to the novus ordo. Your heretic of a pope is mentioned in both masses is he not? So dont get superior with me. If you can compromise than so can I.
Spanish is quite a bit more like Latin than English is. If you hate Spanish with such arrogance, I can't imagine you having much more than mild disdain for Latin. There are far more cognates between Spanish and Latin than there are between English and Latin, and of course, declensions and conjugatives.
The issue isn't whether or not Francis is mentioned in the Canon. You DO realize that the Novus Ordo is not an "English version" of the Latin Mass, yes? I'm asking because you are new to the faith, and every week it becomes apparent that you are not aware of something that is instrumental to the traditional faith-- which is "fine" since you're learning, but nevertheless you owe it to yourself and to God especially to proceed with humility and with purpose of learning and directing your thoughts and your mind towards God and His Holy Religion, which is NOT found in the Novus Ordo.
The issue of validity is un-important inasmuch as even if it is valid, that does not mean it is Catholic. The schismatic Orthodox have valid masses, but you would not go to theirs, because it is not Catholic-- though the DL is more Catholic than the NO, ironically enough. I digress.
So, Soulguard, have you ever attended a traditional Latin Mass? Do you know that it is not just accidentally and extrinsically, but substantially and intrinsically different than the Novus Ordo service?
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Its amazing how you all jump on the trolling bandwagon when some opportunity shows up for you to fit in with your peers on this board. Lots of stupid comments without any knowledge of what your'e talking about. I have gone to novus ordo monasteries for pilgrimages before and found the monks there to be orthodox. I found it a great spiritual help. What makes you think I would go to novus ordo mass while there? I never said that. And another thing, the novus ordo is a sacrilege when done in a vulgar common setting, but in the respectful atmosphere of a monastery it probably is not a sacrilege. I will judge for myself. And I judge what most of you say to be BS. You dont know the situation in monasteries in my country, and by the way, dont tell me that among the 1 billion "Catholics" that there are no Catholics amongst them, as if they are only to be found in your tiny little groups. I see the truth, and by the way, to hell with you for bringing up psychiatry, shows your loyalties to the secular world more than the church, and as for icterus, he is just a troll plain and simple who imagines i have some gripe on him when i dont care about him no matter what he says.
I will go to my pilgrimage if I want to, End of.
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Its amazing how you all jump on the trolling bandwagon when some opportunity shows up for you to fit in with your peers on this board. Lots of stupid comments without any knowledge of what your'e talking about. I have gone to novus ordo monasteries for pilgrimages before and found the monks there to be orthodox. I found it a great spiritual help. What makes you think I would go to novus ordo mass while there? I never said that. And another thing, the novus ordo is a sacrilege when done in a vulgar common setting, but in the respectful atmosphere of a monastery it probably is not a sacrilege. I will judge for myself. And I judge what most of you say to be BS. You dont know the situation in monasteries in my country, and by the way, dont tell me that among the 1 billion "Catholics" that there are no Catholics amongst them, as if they are only to be found in your tiny little groups. I see the truth, and by the way, to hell with you for bringing up psychiatry, shows your loyalties to the secular world more than the church, and as for icterus, he is just a troll plain and simple who imagines i have some gripe on him when i dont care about him no matter what he says.
I will go to my pilgrimage if I want to, End of.
It seems as if you really were not looking for an answer but simply wanted someone to agree with you.
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And another thing, the novus ordo is a sacrilege when done in a vulgar common setting, but in the respectful atmosphere of a monastery it probably is not a sacrilege. I will judge for myself.
Wow! Isn't this statement essentially one of the things that showed the true colors of the SSPX current leadership? I'm starting to wonder what you don't like about conciliardom...
I agree with you that there are still Catholics in conciliardom. Not many--but they're there. Just simply getting the word out to them that tradition still exists and where they can find it is all many of them need. An untrained layman going in to a setting to with the idea of discussing/arguing/debating is counter-productive.
Very mature of you to ask what we would do and then call it bandwagoning against you when the overwhelming majority don't say what you were hoping we'd say...
I know you'll go if you want to and I fully expect you will go. You have some kind of fantasy that conciliardom can be changed from within by MAN without a miracle. I'm starting to wonder how much you would even like conciliardom to change. Maybe it can be changed by MAN sufficiently to suit your desires.
Oh well--have fun in "we love frank" la-la land. Tell the good deacon who hears confessions hello for me.
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SG, why did you bother to ask for advice, if you're going to do what you darn well please anyway?
It makes no sense.
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Before I became a trad, I went to a NO Monastery in Cullman, Alabama. For a NO Monastery they were pretty orthodox. They used a lot of Latin in the Mass although they do have a table instead of an Altar...but it was a NO place after all.
Would I go there now? Probably not. In fact I can say no. There is a Franciscan Monastery near where I live that is NO but very orthodox. They don't allow people to receive Communion in the paws and they use a paten during Communion. One of the priests there has filled in for our Latin Mass priest and he is very orthodox. I do and have gone there for confession and would do so again. If for some reason the Bishop ever ended our Latin Mass (God forbid!) I would probably go there for Mass...but I would make every attempt to find another Latin Mass first.
Isn't there a Traditional monastery in or near Cullman?
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What kind of a monastery are you going to? Trappist? Cistercian? Camaldolese?
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I have the opportunity to go on a retreat at a monastery later this month, and am wondering what people have to say about it. It is a novus ordo monastery without the TLM. I went to a retreat before and enjoyed it, and found it to be a spiritual help, and though the novus ordo monasteries are without TLM the monks i met last time were very orthodox. Do you think I ought to go?
How did this become a pilgrimage? Did I miss something? You do know the difference between a retreat and a pilgrimage I hope crossbro. If you don't, you only need to ask.
Anyway, let's know how you go, seeing you seem determined to reject all the wisdom offered here.
Ecclesiasticus 21:18
A man of sense will praise every wise word he shall hear, and will apply it to himself: the luxurious man hath heard it, and it shall displease him, and he will cast it behind his back.
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I have the opportunity to go on a retreat at a monastery later this month, and am wondering what people have to say about it. It is a novus ordo monastery without the TLM. I went to a retreat before and enjoyed it, and found it to be a spiritual help, and though the novus ordo monasteries are without TLM the monks i met last time were very orthodox. Do you think I ought to go?
How did this become a pilgrimage? Did I miss something? You do know the difference between a retreat and a pilgrimage I hope crossbro. If you don't, you only need to ask.
TCat is too busy teaching to slow down and actually learn anything. Sedevacantist who thinks the NO is valid. Also thinks the NO is sacrilegious but doesn't have any qualms about going anyway.
:confused1:
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What kind of a monastery are you going to? Trappist? Cistercian? Camaldolese?
Novus Ordo.
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What kind of a monastery are you going to? Trappist? Cistercian? Camaldolese?
Novus Ordo.
Could he be more specific?