Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Raoul76 on May 03, 2011, 05:13:31 PM
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The other day I was in Church and found my attention being constantly distracted by a certain female of the species. I'd look away and she was still in my peripheral vision. I couldn't figure out why there was such a magnetic effect happening.
Then I figured it out -- she had a scooped-out top with two bra straps being plainly visible. I think this was having a suggestive effect. I saw it so often as a non-believer that it usually doesn't faze me, but in Church it was having some kind of subconscious pull on me.
I try not to let too much Puritanism filter into my Catholicism, but I think everyone would agree this is not right, right? Even seeing bare shoulders at Church felt weird to me.
Something else that bothers me, more than pants which get more discussion time -- knee-high boots. Is it just me or do these have a trampy effect? You can say "Oh, they cover lots of skin, what's wrong?" but I think these kind of boots on women are undeniably sexy, that is their purpose and design, just like with high heels when they were fashionable. They somehow emphasize the calves and the legs in a provocative way.
Just more proof that modesty is a state of mind. I am less bothered by loose-fitting pants than by certain details as cited above.
You can somehow tell when a girl is trying to fit within the rules, but is applying certain little touches to make herself stand out. This can be done even without subtly provocative touches of clothing or makeup, it can be done with a walk or a way of talking or with mannerisms.
I guess almost all of us do it to a certain extent, as long as we are relatively hale and hearty and young. I try to make my hair look decent, for instance, and wear contact lenses. More modesty comes with greater spiritual perfection. It's very hard to overcome the desire to be admired for superficial, stupid reasons.
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Where do you go to Mass? The Taj Mahoney?
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Don't know what the heck stevus is getting at, but I know what you mean Raoul. The woman should not have been wearing such a thing. I've seen the knee-high boots before. Not at Church, but in general. I have a few relatives that wear them. I don't find them to be all that modest. Afterall, they don't provide the same leg-covering that long skirts or pants do.
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I'm shocked Raoul goes to a sede church where girls are wearing scooped out tops with bare shoulders and bra straps!
I thought the sedes had their act together. Might as well go to the teen rock Mass at your local NO "worship space".
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That would be even worse. And considering the SSPX's strict dress code, I'd imagine that sede chapels are pretty strict about it as well. The priest probably didn't even notice. They're not as easy to detect as a person wearing blue jeans or a really short pair of pants.
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I think its inappropriate to wear open toed sandals, especially heeled open toed sandals in Church even with stockings. I saw this at a sede Chapel.
At one sede Church website I read, they said no sheer stockings even.
Now you know this is exactly the reasons that women dress like nuns under sharia.
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I agree Raoul. It is this little streak of vanity that makes the entire soul sour, when it comes to women and dressing. Knee-high anything and visible bra straps are just that.. visual BS. And that individual will be responsible for any souls they trap with them down to hell, I think.
To address stevie the insignificant, you're sick man. Who are you, Rahm Emmanuel? Never waste a spiritual "emergency" to your own agenda's benefit. So by Raoul pointing out this issue in his quest for purity, you use it as a stepping stone to further the Novus ordo establishment by belittling sede chapels, trad chapels, etc etc. God will have justice on those , aka you, who turn to deceitful ways in order to lead His children into perdition.
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I mean that they resemble nuns in their modesty.
BTW, when we attended Mass in the fifties, women wore sleeveless dresses, straight skirts and skirts to the mid-knee. High heels, open toes and sheer stockings.
(not me)
This would be recognized by all as provocative in any Traditional Chapel.
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I agree Raoul. It is this little streak of vanity that makes the entire soul sour, when it comes to women and dressing. Knee-high anything and visible bra straps are just that.. visual BS. And that individual will be responsible for any souls they trap with them down to hell, I think.
To address stevie the insignificant, you're sick man. Who are you, Rahm Emmanuel? Never waste a spiritual "emergency" to your own agenda's benefit. So by Raoul pointing out this issue in his quest for purity, you use it as a stepping stone to further the Novus ordo establishment by belittling sede chapels, trad chapels, etc etc. God will have justice on those , aka you, who turn to deceitful ways in order to lead His children into perdition.
I don't believe he was promoting the Novus Ordo, he was pexplexed as to how this was going on in a Sede chapel as it wouldn't fly at the SSPX.
You Sede's and Stevus seem to both be attacking each other in your threads and it is turning into near occasion of sin for each of you.
I would like to ask each of you, the Sede's and Stevus to have some self introspective. If you are getting angry with each other and seething with hatred for each other it is an indication of a problem and you must be careful because it can lead to sin. Neither of you seem to be taking the high road or when one of you tries the other dosn't let them.
This does not seem to me to be a charitable position on each of your sides. Perhaps you can have a nice chat somewhere and work out exactly what your postions are.
I see sometimes Stevus argues positions that most in the society do not hold. Or at least none that I've met. Just as sometimes the Sede's accuse us of holding positions that we do not hold.
It also appears that each of you take each others statements out of context, from the outside looking in your threads don't end up making any sense.
This is not an attack on the sede's or Stevus. I am trying only to get you all to see that your constant bickering is not helpful to everyone else, newbies that come in looking for a good clean truly catholic chat or those who want to learn more about the faith. It is also not charitable in either side.
Thanks for reading.
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To address stevie the insignificant, you're sick man. Who are you, Rahm Emmanuel? Never waste a spiritual "emergency" to your own agenda's benefit. So by Raoul pointing out this issue in his quest for purity, you use it as a stepping stone to further the Novus ordo establishment by belittling sede chapels, trad chapels, etc etc. God will have justice on those , aka you, who turn to deceitful ways in order to lead His children into perdition.
Further the Novus Ordo establishment by driving guys who want modestly dressed girls at church to......what? Their local NO where the girls are dressed worse?? That makes no sense!
I had just always pictured sede women dressed like this....
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Inp7vKtCsBk/STlcowWETCI/AAAAAAAACi4/Y_bWJ1XTDaI/s400/Queen_Victoria.jpg)
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The other day I was in Church and found my attention being constantly distracted by a certain female of the species. I'd look away and she was still in my peripheral vision. I couldn't figure out why there was such a magnetic effect happening.
Then I figured it out -- she had a scooped-out top with two bra straps being plainly visible. I think this was having a suggestive effect. I saw it so often as a non-believer that it usually doesn't faze me, but in Church it was having some kind of subconscious pull on me.
I try not to let too much Puritanism filter into my Catholicism, but I think everyone would agree this is not right, right? Even seeing bare shoulders at Church felt weird to me.
Something else that bothers me, more than pants which get more discussion time -- knee-high boots. Is it just me or do these have a trampy effect? You can say "Oh, they cover lots of skin, what's wrong?" but I think these kind of boots on women are undeniably sexy, that is their purpose and design, just like with high heels when they were fashionable. They somehow emphasize the calves and the legs in a provocative way.
Just more proof that modesty is a state of mind. I am less bothered by loose-fitting pants than by certain details as cited above.
You can somehow tell when a girl is trying to fit within the rules, but is applying certain little touches to make herself stand out. This can be done even without subtly provocative touches of clothing or makeup, it can be done with a walk or a way of talking or with mannerisms.
I guess almost all of us do it to a certain extent, as long as we are relatively hale and hearty and young. I try to make my hair look decent, for instance, and wear contact lenses. More modesty comes with greater spiritual perfection. It's very hard to overcome the desire to be admired for superficial, stupid reasons.
This would not fly at my SSPX chapel. In fact my Priest Father Webber had a sermon on Sunday about modesty. It was a very good sermon as are all of his in my opinion. The other Priests have good sermons too, but I really like Father Webber's.
Maybe we can have a discussion on proper dress for men and women. What are things that should not be done and what is the best way to dress?
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To address stevie the insignificant, you're sick man. Who are you, Rahm Emmanuel? Never waste a spiritual "emergency" to your own agenda's benefit. So by Raoul pointing out this issue in his quest for purity, you use it as a stepping stone to further the Novus ordo establishment by belittling sede chapels, trad chapels, etc etc. God will have justice on those , aka you, who turn to deceitful ways in order to lead His children into perdition.
Further the Novus Ordo establishment by driving guys who want modestly dressed girls at church to......what? Their local NO where the girls are dressed worse?? That makes no sense!
I had just always pictured sede women dressed like this....
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Inp7vKtCsBk/STlcowWETCI/AAAAAAAACi4/Y_bWJ1XTDaI/s400/Queen_Victoria.jpg)
I knew what you were saying but you should not say in your posts "You'd be better off going to X invalid mass" it is scandalous.
Maybe saying "I am shocked that this occurs in your mass sir, I would not have thought that would happen anywhere except in x invalid mass"
Thanks.
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I knew what you were saying but you should not say in your posts "You'd be better off going to X invalid mass" it is scandalous.
Maybe saying "I am shocked that this occurs in your mass sir, I would not have thought that would happen anywhere except in x invalid mass"
Thanks.
What?? :confused1:
I never said anything about an invalid Mass....
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I'm shocked Raoul goes to a sede church where girls are wearing scooped out tops with bare shoulders and bra straps!
I thought the sedes had their act together. Might as well go to the teen rock Mass at your local NO "worship space".
I was referring to this, it is NOT better off to go to an invalid rock teen mass. I was saying I know it was a joke, but it is still scandalous and one should not say such a thing.
At best it will just incite them. At worst some idiot might take it literally.
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I don't want to say too much about the girl because people that go to that chapel read this site and know who I am. But she's not immodest at all. She is "misinformed" I'd gather, let's put it that way.
Once I saw a girl there wearing a very short skirt, people were commenting about it. I figured she was new and indeed that turned out to be the case.
I am fairly new also and while I realized visible bra straps wasn't right, I didn't think it was THAT scandalous. I probably shouldn't have said anything and should have had someone say something privately to the girl. Which in fact, is what I will do.
I don't want to say anything more about that here, let's take it to a discussion about various ways of dress that are improper and leave it in the abstract.
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The dress code is less strict at sede chapels in general than at SSPX chapels, I'd say. In fact I know one sede priest who called SSPX "Jansenist" referring to their dress code, though I'm not sure the term is strictly accurate ( I say they are semi-Gallican but not based on the dress code ).
Thomas Droleskey had an eruption because he saw a nun in jogging pants or something at CMRI. They are quite Jesuitical with their moral theology. There are some areas where I disagree with them but over time, I come to their position more and more on many things.
At CMRI, there is a pamphlet advising men to wear suits. I have finally taken to doing this, but I'd say at most there are a handful of other guys in suits at each Mass ( kids wear suits more than grown men ). Women also are advised to dress modestly but are allowed to wear loose-fitting pants, I believe. That, however, is rarely seen.
The SSPX has a reputation at CMRI of being Little House on the Prarie-like and Puritan-esque. They are correct, but I think this is a feature of the American SSPX more than the European SSPX. It's an American thing, in short. European Catholicism was never really like that. If you look at the history of the Church women passed through with more or less scandalous fashions, either very well-dressed and fashionable, vain people or women showing off the goods in whatever way they could get away with ( low-cut bodices ).
Those who want to be modest will easily find the way to do it without too much prodding from the priests, but I don't think historically priests have been too hands-on telling people how to dress, maybe I'm mistaken. They give you guidelines and sermons but from that point on, it's up to you to comply or not, priests don't fly from the pulpit and bodily fling women with visible bra straps out of the chapel.
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What I think are inappropriate --
Knee-high or mid-calf cowboy boots or leather boots on women ( fashionista and provocative )
High heels
Sandals
Hawaiian shirts on men, or anything with a print that could be mistaken for a Hawaiian print at fifty paces
Unbuttoned shirts on men -- button it up to the top
Long hair on men
I'm not sure about scooped-out tops on women, if they show the collarbones but not the breasts maybe it's okay.
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I remember vaguely a story.. or maybe I was even there, of a woman wearing an evening gown to Mass with straps and a low back and our Pastor from the pulpit asked her to leave. :laugh1:
He was like that, yes he was. Those were the good old days. Being thrown out of the confessional and physically restrained from going to Communion.
:laugh2:
Really, I am over it now.
:stare:
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Darcy, what are straight skirts? I find a lot of skirts that are worn pretty form-fitting. They are pencil skirts or hobble skirts, whatever you'd call them now, clinging to the legs and behind -- not the billowy kind.
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Straight skirts, do not have to be form fitting/tight. As long as you can walk in it without needing to have it vented with a slit in the middle at the bottom (back or side).
I read for some Chapel that skirts with vents or slits were not acceptable.
I don't think that straight skirts have to be immodest.
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It's an American thing, in short. European Catholicism was never really like that.
That sounds like nonsense to me.
It is true that modesty in dress, however, salutary, does not ensure good morality. The decadence of the Habsburg Empire can tell us about that.
http://www.archive.org/details/IsraelDestructeurDEmpires
It is something that self-satisfied and corrupt Europeans (and some Americans that like to take up that line of thought) tend to assume.
A drastic change occurred everywhere in the western world during WWI. Just look at any old black and white pictures.
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It sounds like nonsense to you because you're an American.
Americans have a tendency to naive idealism.
If you think Catholic Italy during the Renaissance was modest, I urge you to do some more research. I don't know what it was like in some little parish, I gather that more flamboyant women stood out more there, but overall it was very decadent and these people were Catholic.
It is trads and especially American trads who try to bring heaven to Earth, but in reality the Church has always been a mix of sinners and saints, as well as those who are more or less ignorant.
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Also recall when Savonarola was doing his thing, he convinced people to bring scandalous art and bad books out of their homes to have them burnt. This was right before the Renaissance, and so many Catholics thought nothing of having erotic art in their homes.
Lots of the behavior of trads is an overreaction to Vatican II, they expect perfection. It's very dangerous. As I have learned in my own life, you can try so hard to do the right thing that you end up doing the wrong thing. It's pride, wanting to stand out, to be more gung ho than anyone else. I think it is easily attested that some trads have a tendency to blackball others and exalt themselves, whether it's by coming up with some abstruse theological theory and determining everyone else is a heretic, or by nitpicking some point of moral theology.
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It sounds like nonsense to you because you're an American.
Americans have a tendency to naive idealism.
If you think Catholic Italy during the Renaissance was modest, I urge you to do some more research. I don't know what it was like in some little parish, I gather that more flamboyant women stood out more there, but overall it was very decadent and these people were Catholic.
It is trads and especially American trads who try to bring heaven to Earth, but in reality the Church has always been a mix of sinners and saints, as well as those who are more or less ignorant.
Raoul, if any of us were transported back to Church in 1911 in Europe or America, what would we see on Sunday? What do you think?
If you think it would be anything remotely like visible bra straps or knee high boots you're kidding yourself.
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Lots of the behavior of trads is an overreaction to Vatican II, they expect perfection.
It's not expecting "perfection" to expect women who are traditional Catholics to dress properly for mass.
What is extremely troubling is the way people chafe at the very modest restrictions in place, and then start to get angry at the people who defend them.
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It sounds like nonsense to you because you're an American.
Americans have a tendency to naive idealism.
I'm no pro-American but one has to despise the stupidity of chalking up opposition to laxism as being specially American.
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Lots of the behavior of trads is an overreaction to Vatican II, they expect perfection.
It's not expecting "perfection" to expect women who are traditional Catholics to dress properly for mass.
What is extremely troubling is the way people chafe at the very modest restrictions in place, and then start to get angry at the people who defend them.
I agree with you on this tele, I gave you a thumbs up.
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Also recall when Savonarola was doing his thing, he convinced people to bring scandalous art and bad books out of their homes to have them burnt. This was right before the Renaissance, and so many Catholics thought nothing of having erotic art in their homes.
Lots of the behavior of trads is an overreaction to Vatican II, they expect perfection. It's very dangerous. As I have learned in my own life, you can try so hard to do the right thing that you end up doing the wrong thing. It's pride, wanting to stand out, to be more gung ho than anyone else. I think it is easily attested that some trads have a tendency to blackball others and exalt themselves, whether it's by coming up with some abstruse theological theory and determining everyone else is a heretic, or by nitpicking some point of moral theology.
Savonarola was pre-Trent. In the period before Trent was great scandal, heretical thinking(which led to protestantism), and clericalism not seen again post-Trent until this current Crisis. Pre-Trent was the last but not the first crisis in the church. Trent sought to rectify this. Trent did it's job until this modernism crisis came about which in and of itself was because there came people rejecting Trent.
My point is that that is a bad example in relation to us, since we follow Trent to the letter.
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Maybe I am lucky but I don't have this expectation of perfection at my chapel. I can't speak for what goes on everywhere else, but I have no seen a single argument, everyone is everyone elses friend. We dress appropriately for mass. Men in suits, women in dresses. When we gather for a gettogether outside of mass it's the same, we drink, chat about the faith etc. We play a game of pool. Dave made a joke when he missed a shot in the game of pool. He says when getting ribbed, "I just don't think it's right to beat a priest ha ha" to which Father Webber replied "Oh no, this is a game, No mercy!" lol
We as Catholics cannot expect perfection because only our Lord is perfect. We are flawed human beings, we have faults, but that does not mean we cannot try to be our best.
Someone once said "Oh those Catholics they think they're perfect they donot sin" the reply "We don't say that we do not sin, we just try harder not to sin then everyone else"
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Lots of the behavior of trads is an overreaction to Vatican II, they expect perfection.
It's not expecting "perfection" to expect women who are traditional Catholics to dress properly for mass.
What is extremely troubling is the way people chafe at the very modest restrictions in place, and then start to get angry at the people who defend them.
Well said Tele! :cheers:
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To address stevie the insignificant, you're sick man. Who are you, Rahm Emmanuel? Never waste a spiritual "emergency" to your own agenda's benefit. So by Raoul pointing out this issue in his quest for purity, you use it as a stepping stone to further the Novus ordo establishment by belittling sede chapels, trad chapels, etc etc. God will have justice on those , aka you, who turn to deceitful ways in order to lead His children into perdition.
Further the Novus Ordo establishment by driving guys who want modestly dressed girls at church to......what? Their local NO where the girls are dressed worse?? That makes no sense!
I had just always pictured sede women dressed like this....
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Inp7vKtCsBk/STlcowWETCI/AAAAAAAACi4/Y_bWJ1XTDaI/s400/Queen_Victoria.jpg)
Feel free to add something of substance to the discussion stevus and try to resist your nagging urges to it into a sede discussion. I know it may be hard for you though I think you can do it!
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The SSPX has a reputation at CMRI of being Little House on the Prarie-like and Puritan-esque.
In my experience, I have found the puritanical frumpish look coming from individual families rather than SSPX in general. I don't believe their guidelines are too strict.
They are definitely not as strict as Padre Pio was or as strict as the guidelines put out by the Church prior to VII.
Here is a very good video on modesty if anyone is interested. Modesty (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWKipaNH83E&feature=related)
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I don't understand what you all mean by the "SSPX dress code". My chapel used to have a very definite dress code. It was posted at the front door. Visitors or new people would not be turned away the first time they came if they were in violation unless the violation was egregious (e.g., mini-skirt or shorts or t-shirt).
The subject of the dress code was brought up in discussions with the Society when the chapel was considering the Society. We were told that the priest, and only the priest, would enforce any sort of dress code.
When the chapel became a Society chapel, the dress code sign was removed. I've noticed that women's (and, especially, the older high school girls') skirts and dresses are creeping up, boots and heels are getting bigger, more lace that looks like underwear is showing, etc. Suit jackets and ties are disappearing from the men who attend (though, for the most part, only the new arrivals). One gentleman wears jeans and earrings.
While some Society chapels may have strict dress codes, others do not. Some Society chapels I've visited out west allow very casual dress.
As for sedevacantist chapels, I've seen the same variety of what dress is permitted in them as well.
What is extremely troubling is the way people chafe at the very modest restrictions in place, and then start to get angry at the people who defend them.
This is, indeed, the real problem here.
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I don't understand what you all mean by the "SSPX dress code". My chapel used to have a very definite dress code. It was posted at the front door. Visitors or new people would not be turned away the first time they came if they were in violation unless the violation was egregious (e.g., mini-skirt or shorts or t-shirt).
The subject of the dress code was brought up in discussions with the Society when the chapel was considering the Society. We were told that the priest, and only the priest, would enforce any sort of dress code.
When the chapel became a Society chapel, the dress code sign was removed. I've noticed that women's (and, especially, the older high school girls') skirts and dresses are creeping up, boots and heels are getting bigger, more lace that looks like underwear is showing, etc. Suit jackets and ties are disappearing from the men who attend (though, for the most part, only the new arrivals). One gentleman wears jeans and earrings.
While some Society chapels may have strict dress codes, others do not. Some Society chapels I've visited out west allow very casual dress.
As for sedevacantist chapels, I've seen the same variety of what dress is permitted in them as well.
What is extremely troubling is the way people chafe at the very modest restrictions in place, and then start to get angry at the people who defend them.
This is, indeed, the real problem here.
The liberalization of the SSPX is not something that people are imagining. What an absolute disaster.
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I've heard of alot of SSPX chapels that are pretty strict on dress code. The one near me is as well. Of course, not every chapel will be like that. All chapels are different to some degree.
Aside from his criticisms of the Society, I overall agree with Telesphorus. There's nothing wrong with expecting a woman at Mass to dress appropriately. In fact, any woman who does not should be given a warning by the parish priest. Trashy dressing is a huge distraction at Church. And afterall, if a woman knew she was literally going to meet Jesus, do you think she would dress like she was going to a local Wal-Mart, or dress modestly? It's basically the same concept, since you really do meet Jesus at Mass through Communion.
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I know the attitude of the priest at the CMRI chapel in California, and I believe his stance is, when people come there in the beginning, it is not a good idea to approach them and criticize their dress, till they make a commitment. So many people there come and go and California is known for immodesty in general, it is a culture for California. Not that this is an excuse, but consider the mind of the women, she probably thinks she is modest, and in order for her to be guilty of any sin, one must know what they are doing. We are all at different levels of our spiritual growth, and sometime in this age, in charity we have to be patient with others.
This particular women, might not even realize she is causing such a distraction from a healthy young man nearby. Yet, in the past when people approached others, the offending person can't see past the untactful manner in which she was greeted, and leaves.
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A good thing to do would be to speak with the Priest there. I intend to talk to the priest at my Church in regards to this issue.
I've seen ladies coming into Mass with holes in the backs of their shirts, shirts that drop way too low in the front, and skirts that barely reach their knees, and these are people that have been coming to Church for YEARS, and are now in their 20's. Their parents dress very modestly, but it's as if they don't care about the standards themselves at all anymore. We have signs posted in the back of church as to what describes modesty, and it seems that that, too, is being ignored.
Also, another good thing to explore is Marylike standards. Here is one website that addresses this issue quite well.
http://www.catholicmodesty.com/MarylikeStandardsofModestyinDress.html
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That would be even worse. And considering the SSPX's strict dress code, I'd imagine that sede chapels are pretty strict about it as well. The priest probably didn't even notice. They're not as easy to detect as a person wearing blue jeans or a really short pair of pants.
In what way is the SSPX strict about dress?
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The SSPX won't tolerate short pants, flip flops, spaghetti-strap dresses, etc. Not all SSPX chapels are like that, but alot of them are. That's a good thing, too. I'm not too fond of chapels that will tolerate practically anything.
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I actually happened to be able to talk to the priest at my Church today, and he was UNAWARE that people were dressing like this, likely for a couple of reasons.
1) He has not felt well for a couple of years now, since his operation to remove cancer.
and,
2) Because he's very busy with his duties.
He said he didn't know about it, and asked if I could name who was dressing that way, and I told him that I didn't know their names, but what families they were from. He said that this is the Month of Our Lady, so it's an appropriate time, and I reminded him that summer is coming up, and he said that he thought it would only get worse if he didn't say something and thanked me for BRINGING IT TO HIS ATTENTION.
Please, I think the most advisable thing here is to BRING IT TO YOUR PRIEST'S ATTENTION so that he can do something about it. If you just complain privately about it, that's not going to help. Direct the matter to the PRIEST.
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I know the attitude of the priest at the CMRI chapel in California, and I believe his stance is, when people come there in the beginning, it is not a good idea to approach them and criticize their dress, till they make a commitment. So many people there come and go and California is known for immodesty in general, it is a culture for California. Not that this is an excuse, but consider the mind of the women, she probably thinks she is modest, and in order for her to be guilty of any sin, one must know what they are doing. We are all at different levels of our spiritual growth, and sometime in this age, in charity we have to be patient with others.
This particular women, might not even realize she is causing such a distraction from a healthy young man nearby. Yet, in the past when people approached others, the offending person can't see past the untactful manner in which she was greeted, and leaves.
This is true and why we must be careful about the way we go about addressing this issue. If someone is completely unaware then they must be told in a way that is charitable.
Someone who was searching for truth and was approached and told off for dressing in this manner could easily be turned off by the lack of charity.
Perhaps large standout signs could be placed at the entrance specifying the standards like they have at the Vatican. In the video I attached on my last post they talk about having wrap around skirts and shirts that they hand out to immodest people if they want to enter the Church.
I remember back in my rather more liberal days when I was in the navy in the middle east, I went on a tour of a mosque and each person who was not wearing long pants had to put on a long tunic to cover themselves. Perhaps something similar could be done in this case for Catholic Churches.
People need to to understand with no doubt or confusion that you do not go into a Church dressed inappropriately just as you would not attend a wedding in your pyjamas or under garments.
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Stevus..
:incense:
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I know the attitude of the priest at the CMRI chapel in California, and I believe his stance is, when people come there in the beginning, it is not a good idea to approach them and criticize their dress, till they make a commitment. So many people there come and go and California is known for immodesty in general, it is a culture for California. Not that this is an excuse, but consider the mind of the women, she probably thinks she is modest, and in order for her to be guilty of any sin, one must know what they are doing. We are all at different levels of our spiritual growth, and sometime in this age, in charity we have to be patient with others.
This particular women, might not even realize she is causing such a distraction from a healthy young man nearby. Yet, in the past when people approached others, the offending person can't see past the untactful manner in which she was greeted, and leaves.
This is true and why we must be careful about the way we go about addressing this issue. If someone is completely unaware then they must be told in a way that is charitable.
Someone who was searching for truth and was approached and told off for dressing in this manner could easily be turned off by the lack of charity.
Perhaps large standout signs could be placed at the entrance specifying the standards like they have at the Vatican. In the video I attached on my last post they talk about having wrap around skirts and shirts that they hand out to immodest people if they want to enter the Church.
I remember back in my rather more liberal days when I was in the navy in the middle east, I went on a tour of a mosque and each person who was not wearing long pants had to put on a long tunic to cover themselves. Perhaps something similar could be done in this case for Catholic Churches.
People need to to understand with no doubt or confusion that you do not go into a Church dressed inappropriately just as you would not attend a wedding in your pyjamas or under garments.
Seriously, the best way to handle this is to GO TO YOUR PRIEST so that HE can admonish the people not obeying the standards of modesty. The people that have been coming in dressed this way over where I go, have been going there for years, and KNOW they're doing what they're doing, and so, a parishioner approaching them about it WILL NOT HELP. A DIRECT admonishment from the Priest needs to happen! They KNOW what the rules are, and they KNOW what is expected of them, and are going against that. How does one approach that charitably? You go to the PRIEST, and HE takes care of it.
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a parishioner approaching them about it WILL NOT HELP. A DIRECT admonishment from the Priest needs to happen! They KNOW what the rules are, and they KNOW what is expected of them, and are going against that. How does one approach that charitably? You go to the PRIEST, and HE takes care of it.
Yes coming from a Priest is the best as they have to God given authority though that is not to say it can't come from a fellow parishoner if you know the parishoner.
What do you mean, "How does one approach that charitably?"? You do exactly that. If you think that you personally can't do it, doesn't mean others can't.
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Lots of the behavior of trads is an overreaction to Vatican II, they expect perfection. It's very dangerous. As I have learned in my own life, you can try so hard to do the right thing that you end up doing the wrong thing. It's pride, wanting to stand out, to be more gung ho than anyone else. I think it is easily attested that some trads have a tendency to blackball others and exalt themselves, whether it's by coming up with some abstruse theological theory and determining everyone else is a heretic, or by nitpicking some point of moral theology.
Congrats! You've just described Sede-ism! :laugh1:
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Congrats! You've just described Sede-ism! :laugh1:
For stevus everything boils down to sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, like a broken record, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, ahhhhh I can't think of anything but sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, I will turn every discussion into sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, and this is a guy who thinks the majority of members of this forum are kooky, where was I, oh yes, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, what were we discussing, oh yes, sede, sede, sede, sede, etc, etc, etc.................................................................................................................................................... :cussing:
:fryingpan:
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Congrats! You've just described Sede-ism! :laugh1:
For stevus everything boils down to sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, like a broken record, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, ahhhhh I can't think of anything but sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, I will turn every discussion into sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, and this is a guy who thinks the majority of members of this forum are kooky, where was I, oh yes, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, sede, what were we discussing, oh yes, sede, sede, sede, sede, etc, etc, etc.................................................................................................................................................... :cussing:
:fryingpan:
:roll-laugh1:
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a parishioner approaching them about it WILL NOT HELP. A DIRECT admonishment from the Priest needs to happen! They KNOW what the rules are, and they KNOW what is expected of them, and are going against that. How does one approach that charitably? You go to the PRIEST, and HE takes care of it.
Yes coming from a Priest is the best as they have to God given authority though that is not to say it can't come from a fellow parishoner if you know the parishoner.
What do you mean, "How does one approach that charitably?"? You do exactly that. If you think that you personally can't do it, doesn't mean others can't.
See, it's not that I don't believe I can't do it. I totally could (and I already have,) but what I understand that perhaps you don't yet, is that coming from a parishoner, the message does not stick because, people coming in dressed like that normally have a problem with pride to begin with, so, you need to let the PRIEST deal with it, because with a parishoner saying it, it goes in one ear and out the other. "Why should I listen to them? They're holier than thou!" Even if you SAY it in a charitable, tactful way.
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Here is a very good video on modesty if anyone is interested. Modesty (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWKipaNH83E&feature=related)
Did you watch this, Raoul? The second person pictured in the video has .... visible bra straps!
It's a good NO modesty video, for Trads you'd have to step it up a bit.
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Here is a very good video on modesty if anyone is interested. Modesty (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWKipaNH83E&feature=related)
Did you watch this, Raoul? The second person pictured in the video has .... visible bra straps!
It's a good NO modesty video, for Trads you'd have to step it up a bit.
:laugh1:
I noticed this too.
I was thinking to myself, "Well wait, what about her shirt? You can see her bra strap!"
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Here is a very good video on modesty if anyone is interested. Modesty (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWKipaNH83E&feature=related)
Did you watch this, Raoul? The second person pictured in the video has .... visible bra straps!
It's a good NO modesty video, for Trads you'd have to step it up a bit.
I must say I didn't notice the visible bra straps. Admittedly it is NO, though I put it up as its probably the best video on modesty I have seen as it does a good job of describing the guys view point. Have you any links to Traditional modesty videos with no visible bra straps?
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And the irony is that she is talking about the crazy idea of going outside with one's underwear on. As she sits there talking to the camera with bra strap exposed! :laugh1:
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Here is a very good video on modesty if anyone is interested. Modesty (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWKipaNH83E&feature=related)
Did you watch this, Raoul? The second person pictured in the video has .... visible bra straps!
It's a good NO modesty video, for Trads you'd have to step it up a bit.
I must say I didn't notice the visible bra straps. Admittedly it is NO, though I put it up as its probably the best video on modesty I have seen as it does a good job of describing the guys view point. Have you any links to Traditional modesty videos with no visible bra straps?
No, unfortunately, I don't know of any, which is why I gave credit where credit was due and said it was a good intro to modesty video.
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Did you watch this, Raoul? The second person pictured in the video has .... visible bra straps!
It's a good NO modesty video, for Trads you'd have to step it up a bit.
I think that while well-meaning, the second woman in the video is dressed somewhat sloppily. I think that she's actually wearing some kind of camisole or tank type shirt and then a loose, ill-fitting sweater over it. Tops other than bras can have spaghetti type straps.
The whole impression, while technically exposing some shoulder and chest area, is not one of allurement, but careless dishevelment. And that fails in the area of decorum and modesty in a different way than someone trying to seduce by appearance, IMO.