Author Topic: Vigil of Christmas fast?  (Read 1065 times)

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Offline Felicitas

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Vigil of Christmas fast?
« on: December 12, 2017, 01:19:09 PM »
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  • Being that Christmas Eve falls on a Sunday, is there a rule for fasting?

    I would have thought that the fast would get cancelled out since it is on a Sunday and one can't fast and feast at the same time; but I have 2 Traditional Catholic calendars that contradict each other. One has a fish; the other doesn't. 

    Is one maybe printed on the Spirit of the law, and the other on the Letter of the law?

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Vigil of Christmas fast?
    « Reply #1 on: December 12, 2017, 01:30:33 PM »
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  • There is no fast owing to the fact that it falls on a Holy Day (Holy Days always trump fasts).  When a fast day and a Holy Day coincide, the Holy Day always wins.  What calendar of yours says otherwise?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigil of Christmas fast?
    « Reply #2 on: December 12, 2017, 01:57:00 PM »
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  • Wouldn't it be transferred back to the 23rd?  Thought I heard that somewhere.

    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Vigil of Christmas fast?
    « Reply #3 on: December 12, 2017, 02:49:12 PM »
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  • Ecclesiastical Dictionary AD 1900 Page 296 under Fast Days

    Quote:
    "If the festival, however, occurs on Monday, the vigil is kept on the Saturday before; as Sunday is never a fast day."
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline Dolores

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    Re: Vigil of Christmas fast?
    « Reply #4 on: December 12, 2017, 03:01:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: 1917 Code of Canon Law
    Canon 1252

    Abstinence only is enjoined on the Fridays throughout the year.

    Fast and abstinence are prescribed on the following days:  Ash Wednesday, the Fridays and Saturdays in Lent, Ember days, the Vigils of Pentecost, of the Assumption, of All Saints' Day, and of Christmas Day.

    Fast only is ordained for all other days of Lent.

    On Sundays and holydays of obligation, except on a holyday in Lent, there is neither fast nor abstinence, and if a vigil that is a fastday falls on a Sunday the fast is not to be anticipated on Saturday but is dropped altogether that year.  The Lenten fast and abstinence cease at twelve o'clock noon on Holy Saturday.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Vigil of Christmas fast?
    « Reply #5 on: December 12, 2017, 04:18:44 PM »
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  • .
    The 23rd is Ember Saturday...fast and partial abstinence anyways
    .
    Ember Saturday is complete fast and partial abstinence unless it's a vigil of Easter (Holy Saturday) or vigil of the Immaculate  Conception, for on those days it becomes complete fast and abstinence. On the vigils of Pentecost and of All Saints, Ember days become partial abstinence and complete fast. That can be Wednesday or Saturday for All Saints but it's always Saturday for Pentecost. Fun, huh?
    .
    My calendar shows Saturday December 23rd this year to be a day of partial abstinence, since Christmas Eve falls on Sunday and Sunday is always a feast day and as such is never a day of fast or abstinence. That means on that Saturday you can have one serving of flesh meat at one meal (the main meal), and the other two meals are meatless. I have read that some priests have taught in the past that 4 ounces of meat is one serving. I know a man who refuses to accept that because for him a 20 ounce Porterhouse Steak is one serving. I asked him how he figures that having a huge steak can be thought to be partially abstaining, and he replied that he wouldn't have meat for the other two meals that day. I said, but you don't normally have meat at every meal, do you? He replied, "Not for dessert." (Then two smaller meals if necessary include dessert? -- Maybe if dessert is "necessary?")
    .
    But that Saturday (Dec. 23rd) is also an Ember Day, so that would be a complete Fast Day, anyway, and its normal partial abstinence is outclassed by complete abstinence. You can "kill two birds with one stone," then. So we can enjoy ourselves THIS year with our Protestant friends who like to whoop it up on Christmas Eve!
    .
    Enjoy yourself because next year December 22nd is Ember Saturday, complete Fast and partial abstinence, and Monday Dec. 24th is complete Fast and Abstinence, like another Good Friday or Ash Wednesday.
    .
    Try explaining that to a Protestant. (Or to a Novus Ordite.) You can tell them you explained it already, last year. And he'll say, "But last year you came to our Christmas Eve party!" You can say you explained it during cocktails. He'll reply, "But by the time you explained it I had already had two beers!"
    .
    We had a second oddity this month, Dec. 7th, which fell on Thursday; since Friday the 8th was the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, meat was not prohibited on Friday that day only, but you were supposed to abstain from meat the day before, on the 7th.
    .
    So the anniversary of Pearl Harbor became a day of complete fast and abstinence, like another Good Friday or Ash Wednesday -- or like Christmas Eve, next year, that is.
    .
    .
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Vigil of Christmas fast?
    « Reply #6 on: December 12, 2017, 04:54:58 PM »
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  • .
    I left out these things in bold:
    .
    Ember Saturday is complete fast and partial abstinence unless it's a vigil of Easter (Holy Saturday) or vigil of the Immaculate  Conception, or the Vigil of Christmas, for on those days it becomes complete fast and abstinence. When Ember days fall on the vigils of Pentecost and of All Saints, Ember days become partial complete abstinence and complete fast. That can be Wednesday or Saturday for All Saints but it's always Saturday for Pentecost. When those vigils fall on Friday, they become complete abstinence like Fridays usually are.
    .
    This year Ember Saturday before Christmas also carries the complete abstinence of Christmas Eve.
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    Offline Felicitas

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    Re: Vigil of Christmas fast?
    « Reply #7 on: December 12, 2017, 05:06:30 PM »
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  • Thanks, everyone..

    Maybe the fish was just overlooked in the final editing...?

    That calendar was put out by someone in the resistance, no idea who. It has a couple of resistance chapels listed on the back. It was given to us by Bp Zendejas. 

    I did notice a couple of other flaws, like the same picture for 2 months in a row, for instance.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Vigil of Christmas fast?
    « Reply #8 on: December 12, 2017, 05:08:40 PM »
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  • .
    This year Ember Saturday before Christmas also carries the complete abstinence of Christmas Eve.
    .
    ...or so one might think...
    .
    I just re-read the thread and Dolores' post above throws a monkey wrench into this concept. 
    .
    So ignore the above post! Thank you.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Vigil of Christmas fast?
    « Reply #9 on: December 12, 2017, 06:21:03 PM »
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  • Thanks, everyone..

    Maybe the fish was just overlooked in the final editing...?

    That calendar was put out by someone in the resistance, no idea who. It has a couple of resistance chapels listed on the back. It was given to us by Bp Zendejas.

    I did notice a couple of other flaws, like the same picture for 2 months in a row, for instance.
    .
    ...This is a "Fast" post...
    (not an ex post fasto ;))
    .
    You can't go by these trad calendars apparently because there are quite often typos. You not only have the general rules that hopefully are printed all on one page somewhere, you also have the exceptions like the one Dolores posted above, whereby Saturday never anticipates the fast or abstinence that would be transferred from Sunday when Sunday is a vigil day of a Feast. 
    .
    And like Bellator Dei pointed out, as Ember Day, this Dec. 23rd is complete fast and partial abstinence. So you ought to have "Fast" written on Wed. Dec. 20th, Fri. Dec. 22nd and Sat. Dec. 23rd, with a half fish on Wed. and Sat. and a full fish on Fri. The Friday preceding Christmas this year is just like Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, fast and complete abstinence.
    .
    All the Ember days in the year should be identified with the word "Fast" written on them. But I have two calendars with 9 Ember days each without the "Fast" designation written in. I had to write them in myself. Talk about penance! I should be getting an INDULGENCE. HAHAHAHA
    .
    My new calendar has Candlemas (Purification of Mary) on February 1st instead of 2nd. It appears perhaps the guy making up the new template for this year's calendar was using the previous year's as a guide because Candlemas was on Thursday in 2017 and he put it on Thursday in 2018 also, but it should be on Friday.
    .
    It has the "Vigil of Pentecost" with "partial abstinence" on May 12th instead of May 19th, and "Fast" is missing. The week following Pentecost is Ember week, and "Fast" is missing on all 3 days. It's also missing in the 4th week of September, so far 6 typos on Ember days alone. How are we supposed to remember to fast on Ember day when it's only showing up consistently on the Last Page of the calendar? (Which is too bothersome to flip to and read each and every month.)
    .
    In December, 2018, Friday the 7th should be a day of "Fast" (missing on my calendar) and complete Abstinence (Friday - check). Two weeks later are Ember days which should have "Fast" written on them (which my calendar does not for a total of 9 Ember day typos) and a half fish for Wed. the 19th and Sat. the 22nd and a full fish for Fri. the 21st. (which mine does). Then Christmas Eve should have "Fast" (mine is missing) and a full fish (check). So that's 5 typos in one month (the word "Fast" on 5 days). 
    .
    Does a well-meaning Catholic commit a sin by messing up on Fast and/or Abstinence when the calendar he depends on has 5 typos in one month?
    .
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Vigil of Christmas fast?
    « Reply #10 on: December 12, 2017, 06:55:16 PM »
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  • Dolores wrote:
    Quote from: 1917 Code of Canon Law
    Quote
    Canon 1252

    Abstinence only is enjoined on the Fridays throughout the year.

    Fast and abstinence are prescribed on the following days:  Ash Wednesday, the Fridays and Saturdays in Lent, Ember days, the Vigils of Pentecost, of the Assumption, of All Saints' Day, and of Christmas Day.

    Fast only is ordained for all other days of Lent.

    On Sundays and holydays of obligation, except on a holyday in Lent, there is neither fast nor abstinence, and if a vigil that is a fastday falls on a Sunday the fast is not to be anticipated on Saturday but is dropped altogether that year.  The Lenten fast and abstinence cease at twelve o'clock noon on Holy Saturday.
    .
    This quote from the 1917 Code is worded very ambiguously, especially for Americans (where there are longstanding exceptions like for St. Patrick's Day and Thanksgiving Day).
    .
    This "Abstinence only" rule has exceptions, such as this year on December 8th when the Feast of the Immaculate Conception fell on Friday. 
    .
    Christmas, the Feast of the Circumcision, St. Patrick's Day, The Assumption of Mary and All Saints' Day also can be exceptions when they fall on Friday.  You can have your Corned Beef on Friday for St. Paddy's Day. But All Souls' Day, St. Joseph's Day, Valentine's Day and the Feast of the Sacred Heart of Jesus do not suspend Friday abstinence. However, for Americans, anyway, the Friday following Thanksgiving Day does. So it does something Christmas Day doesn't. 
    .
    Trivia question for American Catholic Trads:  When is Thanksgiving Day more important than Christmas Day? 
    .
    Answer: Americans can always eat meat on the Friday after Thanksgiving Day, but when Christmas Day falls on Thursday, the Friday that follows it (Feast of St. Stephen) is a day of complete Abstinence. 
    .
    Saturdays in Lent are not days of abstinence, unless it's Ember Saturday, in which case it's only partial abstinence.
    .
    The abstinence for Ember Days when they're Wednesday or Saturday is only a partial abstinence.
    .
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Vigil of Christmas fast?
    « Reply #11 on: December 13, 2017, 01:23:27 PM »
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  • Dolores wrote:
    Quote from: 1917 Code of Canon Law
    Canon 1252

    Fast and abstinence are prescribed on the following days:  Ash Wednesday, the Fridays and Saturdays in Lent, Ember days, the Vigils of Pentecost, of the Assumption, of All Saints' Day, and of Christmas Day.

    .
    This is not true. Saturdays in Lent are not days of "fast and abstinence" (ambiguity notwithstanding). Saturdays in Lent are days of fast, but one Saturday in Lent (varies each year, movable date), Ember Saturday, is a day of fast and partial abstinence.
    .
    Partial abstinence is to be distinguished, but not separated, from complete abstinence. That is, days of partial abstinence are not "days of abstinence" (while days of abstinence retain the abstaining aspect of partial abstinence days).
    .
    (The purpose of parentheses is, so you can readily get the simple version by reading the sentence excluding the parenthetical portion.)
    .
    Saturdays in Lent are no different from Wednesdays in Lent (after Ash Wednesday) in this respect (fast and partial abstinence). Note that Holy Saturday is only halfway a Saturday of Lent (the morning half) since the Lenten fast and abstinence ceases at 1200 hours (noon).
    .
    (Holy Saturday is never an Ember day.)
    .
    (When you go to the trouble of publishing a summary of Canon like 1252 from the 1917 Code, you ought to be precise so readers won't misunderstand the law being referenced. This is not directed at Dolores but at the Catholic Encyclopedia from which she was quoting.)
    .
    Likewise, Ember days are not all days of complete abstinence; only the Ember Friday of Lent, and also most other Fridays of the year. Exceptions include but are not limited to March 17th (can be a Friday in Lent), the Feast of St. Patrick in Ireland and in America, (the two most blessed places on earth evidently, for meat lovers that is, but not for snakes :cowboy:* ), and any Fridays on which certain major Feast Days fall. Ember days are of longstanding tradition, as shown by major Feast Days set off so that no conflict usually happens.
    .

    Abstinence only is enjoined on the Fridays throughout the year.
    .
    "Abstinence only" (meaning days without mandatory fasting, and either complete or partial abstinence but that's ambiguous) can refer generally speaking to most Fridays throughout the year, but not all. Exceptions include but are not limited to some major Feast Days (not Feast of the Sacred Heart of Jesus which is a Double of the 1st Class with privileged Octave of the 3rd order, unless your a CMRI follower because they have expunged all the Octaves on the Traditional Calendar under the pretext that Pope Pius XII, the "last valid Pope" threw them out under his legitimate authority) but not all Feast Days. The precise rules for how the rank of each Feast Day affects its fast and abstinence application are somewhat complicated (which is their excuse for the CMRI in recognizing the changes made under Pius XII even though they are unwilling to discuss the propriety of his appointing Annibale Bugnini to the post that would allow him to instigate the destruction of the Traditional Latin Mass).
    .
    Fast only is ordained for all other days of Lent.
    .
    This is true, sort of. This way there are actually 40 days of fast (almost) every Lent. These 40 days include Ash Wednesday and the morning half of Holy Saturday. Strictly speaking there are at most 39-1/2 fast days, and less when exceptions occur (such as St. Patrick's Day in Ireland and America, the two most blessed places, etc., see above  :cowboy: ).
    .
    *This Cowboy  :cowboy: smiley mysteriously and magically becomes a Leprechaun with a lovely Irish brogue for St. Patrick's Day on CI.
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    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Vigil of Christmas fast?
    « Reply #12 on: December 13, 2017, 01:49:34 PM »
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  • Thanks, everyone..

    Maybe the fish was just overlooked in the final editing...?

    That calendar was put out by someone in the resistance, no idea who. It has a couple of resistance chapels listed on the back. It was given to us by Bp Zendejas.

    I did notice a couple of other flaws, like the same picture for 2 months in a row, for instance.
    I don't envy the people who attempt to put together these calendars for all of us. We have 2 this year that contradict each other on every questionable day in the month of December.
    One of them shows fasting on the 7th, 8th, and 24th. The other shows nothing for all 3 of those days.
    "If I could only make the faithful sing the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Credo, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei ... that would be to me the finest triumph sacred music could have, for it is in really taking part in the liturgy that the faithful will preserve their devotion. I would take the Tantum ...

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Vigil of Christmas fast?
    « Reply #13 on: December 13, 2017, 02:30:24 PM »
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  • I don't envy the people who attempt to put together these calendars for all of us. We have 2 this year that contradict each other on every questionable day in the month of December.
    One of them shows fasting on the 7th, 8th, and 24th. The other shows nothing for all 3 of those days.
    .
    Every year there is dread over the production and double and triple checking of the calendars. It's kind of a part time legal secretary job, that is, for a secretary of Canon law!  
    .
    (Most lawyers think Canon law is a big, big joke, which BTW amounts to yet another sign of their own predestination.)
    .
    In my experience those doing this work are overbooked and need more sleep. Besides trying to edit .pdf files with crossed, blurry, sleepy eyes, they are reduced to paying the closest attention to many other details that sometimes are of greater consequence such as which Feast days get moved or anticipated, where Easter falls, how that effects other movable feasts, and liturgical rank consequences of the relevant days and how many days they'll get calls at 5:00 am asking what color the altar cloth should be today (or arriving to find the altar has the wrong colors already). 
    .
    They would like to have help but then they'd have to take the time training the volunteers what to look for, and it's the time in the first place that's the beginning of the problem.
    .
    I sometimes wonder if the CMRI didn't make a decision on principle that was influenced by priority concerns, such that reverting to ALL the standing rules and conventions in effect prior to 1954 compared to those following 1958 would be too much more work that nobody would care about in the long run. Besides, they wouldn't have to bother remembering whether the Last Gospel is John 1 or something else, Holy Week wouldn't be such a time sponge, and they wouldn't have to worry about offending the Jews on Good Friday, etc.
    .
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    Offline Dolores

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    Re: Vigil of Christmas fast?
    « Reply #14 on: December 15, 2017, 01:22:45 PM »
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  • (When you go to the trouble of publishing a summary of Canon like 1252 from the 1917 Code, you ought to be precise so readers won't misunderstand the law being referenced. This is not directed at Dolores but at the Catholic Encyclopedia from which she was quoting.)

    To be clear, I was not quoting from the Catholic Encyclopedia.  What I quoted is from the following source:

    http://www.archive.org/stream/newcanonlaw00woywuoft#page/256/mode/2up

     

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