Author Topic: Various Questions (Read 1642 times)

Lanciano8 · « **on:** May 20, 2011, 11:34:44 AM »

Hello, all!

I have a few curious questions.

I once read, "Only God is to be adored." I don't remember the source or whether it was authoritative in some way. Regarding only Merriam-Webster's *first* definition, this is certainly true; but based on its additional definitions, one might say that a baby is "adorable" and not mean for him to be honorable as God (ignoring the dictionary's pantheistic use of the phrase "a deity" as if there were others). Perhaps the additional definitions are the result of common wrong usage of the word. But the Latin "orare" simply means "to speak/pray" (though I would argue that it actually means "to ask/pray"). I'm also aware that "worship" simply means "honor" (from Old English "woerthcipe" meaning "worthy of honor" -- so Brits may call judges "Your Worship"); it just doesn't mean the worship given to God alone (Latin latria, as opposed to dulia). What is the Traditional take on this? Must we avoid "adoration" except to God?

Are "canon lawyers" (especially lay ones) an innovation since VC2? Was this reserved to priests before VC2?

Are there any Traditional Catholic ethicists?
Are there any Traditional Catholic exorcists?

Is the concept of "invincible ignorance" Traditional, as well as related subdivisions of ignorance?

Are there any Traditional (or at least not gravely Modernist) organizations that provide evangelization materials/guidance in approaching Protestants and Modernist/Liberal "catholics"?

Are there any other trustworthy, active, evangelizing organizations besides www.therealpresence.org, particularly that focus on the incredibly undenyable Miracle of Lanciano, Italy, in the early 8th Century, due to the scientific proof that each particle weighs the same separately as all the particles together? I think this Miracle ought to be reported constantly (TWENTYFOUR-HOURLY), at least at first by every Catholic media, until it nags at the world's intelligent(?) conscience, showing that the Eucharist and Church teachings are favored by God!

Thank you.

Darcy · « **Reply #1 on:** May 20, 2011, 07:18:04 PM »

Commandment #1
“I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have any other gods before Me."

I hope that answers your first question.

Darcy · « **Reply #2 on:** May 20, 2011, 07:47:10 PM »

I just wanted to add that you have some interesting questions and I hope that someone offers some answers.

I can say that when I was growing up in the prevatican2 Church that we were taught that there was such a thing as "invincible ignorance" and we just took it for granted. I cannot elaborate further but I hope that someone else will be more specific on it.

Hobbledehoy · « **Reply #3 on:** May 20, 2011, 08:18:09 PM »

Quote from: Lanciano8

I once read, "Only God is to be adored."

The following notes were taken sometime ago from my study of Rev. Father Callewaert's De Sacra Liturgia universim, (Bruges: Beyaert, 1953; Reprint: Romanitas Press, 2010) which I hope can shed light on this particular question (they may be sketchy and obscure, but they're just notes that were taken in haste).

Quote from: Notes upon Rev. Father Callewaert regarding the terminus of liturgical cult

---> The teleology of prayer based upon the ontological relations that exist between mankind and God:

1) God is the First Cause and Supreme Lord of all creatures, and especially of man himself: we ought to acknowledge this supreme dominion and our essential dependence upon God and adore God in the strict sense of the word

2) God is the Creator and Governor of all things: all that we are and all good wherein we joy has He given unto us: we ought to make return for all things received from Him, that is, make thanksgiving

3) God is our Final End: the means to attain thereto surpass the exigencies and powers of any created or creatable nature whatsoever, and ought therefore to be earnestly entreated and impetrated from Him, “without whom mortal infirmity can do nothing”

4) It behooves us to placate the infinite majesty of God outraged by sin and render propitiation and beg forgiveness from Him, “who doth greatly manifest his omnipotence in pardoning and pitying.”

---> Prayer as the honor paid unto God by man in the totality of human nature; and from the substantial union and mutual influx of the soul and of the body internal cult spontaneously produces its external signs and, in turn, by means of corporeal acts and things “the mind of man is spurred unto spiritual acts by which it is united with God; and therefore religion has interior acts as principles and in themselves pertaining unto religion, and exterior acts as secondary and ordained unto interior acts” (S. Thomas). Thus therefore regarding the external rendering of cult, exterior acts separated from internal affection of reverence and submission are not to be understood, without which external acts will not constitute cult.

---> The blessed Mother of God above all other Saints is celebrated in many proper feasts, votive Masses, Office in Saturday, Final Antiphon in the recitation of the Canonical Hours; she is celebrated together with her Son in many feasts of the Lord; she is always placed before the Angels and the other Saints. But all her privileges of grace upon the earth and of glory in the heavens are celebrated in order as to her divine maternity, which is the formal reason of the cult of hyperdulia, by which “neither a similar has been seen before nor shall there ever be hereafter,” and the reason by which she has a singular relationship with the Persons of the Most Holy Trinity, by which “she has conceived the only-begotten Son [of the Father] by the overshadowing of the Holy Ghost.”

---> In the cult of the Mother of God and of the Saints, the Church intends three things:

1) With veneration to celebrate their excellence and merit, which they have by the grace of God through Christ unto whom they have been incorporated

2) To obtain their suffrages, which would avail to nothing save in as much as how, God thus ordaining, they intercede by the graces given unto them by Christ, and plead for good things as to be given in view of the merits of Christ

3) To propose their examples and virtues to be imitated, which they could not have exercised save in as much as they by the grace of God imitated Christ the universal exemplar.

Hope these notes are helpful for this question.

LordPhan · « **Reply #4 on:** May 20, 2011, 08:36:38 PM »

I'll answer your questions to the best of my ability. At least the ones I can.

Quote from: Lanciano8

Hello, all!

I have a few curious questions.

I once read, "Only God is to be adored." I don't remember the source or whether it was authoritative in some way. Regarding only Merriam-Webster's *first* definition, this is certainly true; but based on its additional definitions, one might say that a baby is "adorable" and not mean for him to be honorable as God (ignoring the dictionary's pantheistic use of the phrase "a deity" as if there were others). Perhaps the additional definitions are the result of common wrong usage of the word. But the Latin "orare" simply means "to speak/pray" (though I would argue that it actually means "to ask/pray"). I'm also aware that "worship" simply means "honor" (from Old English "woerthcipe" meaning "worthy of honor" -- so Brits may call judges "Your Worship"); it just doesn't mean the worship given to God alone (Latin latria, as opposed to dulia). What is the Traditional take on this? Must we avoid "adoration" except to God?

There is one God, the Trinity. We worship the Trinity, Darcy answered this.

Are "canon lawyers" (especially lay ones) an innovation since VC2? Was this reserved to priests before VC2?

I do not know, ask a traditional Priest

Are there any Traditional Catholic ethicists? not sure what this is so I don't know
Are there any Traditional Catholic exorcists? Someone asked my Priest once at a dinner party if he could get an exorcist if it was ever needed, he said he could appoint one out of neccessity, but that he'd have to find a really old priest. I wasn't really paying that much attention to this conversation so I'm not sure but I do know he said that a member of the society went to observe the new rite of exorcism and reported it was not real.

Is the concept of "invincible ignorance" Traditional, as well as related subdivisions of ignorance?

yes

Are there any Traditional (or at least not gravely Modernist) organizations that provide evangelization materials/guidance in approaching Protestants and Modernist/Liberal "catholics"?

The society of St. Pius X has many such things, there is also TAN books, although TAN Books is now owned by semi-modernists, if you get items from before it was bought out by the modernists it is good stuff. SSPX(Society of St. Pius X) has it's own printers, http://www.angeluspress.org/ you'll find everything you need there, including the pre-modernists TAN stuff. I recommend some of the cheap booklets like 'Which Bible Should you Read?' (Which if you do a search you can get in pdf form on this site for free) or 'Sola Scriptora?' a book which tears apart the protestant sola scriptora argument. There are others which I may or may not have read yet.

Are there any other trustworthy, active, evangelizing organizations besides www.therealpresence.org, particularly that focus on the incredibly undenyable Miracle of Lanciano, Italy, in the early 8th Century, due to the scientific proof that each particle weighs the same separately as all the particles together? I think this Miracle ought to be reported constantly (TWENTYFOUR-HOURLY), at least at first by every Catholic media, until it nags at the world's intelligent(?) conscience, showing that the Eucharist and Church teachings are favored by God!

Thank you.

TKGS · « **Reply #5 on:** May 20, 2011, 08:42:23 PM »

I can answer some of your questions:

1. The terms "adore", "worship", etc., do have various meanings and connotations. It is difficult to give any absolute answer. The way we worship God, as the Creator, with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, is different from the way we "worship" the Blessed Virgin Mary as the greatest intercessor between us and her Son. The term as I just used it would have been understood differently 200 years ago. In today's lexicon, it would be better to say that we worship God and we venerate Mary and the Saints.

2. Canon lawyers have existed since the Church first began to issue canons that people had to apply in slightly different circuмstances. This is not a creation of Vatican 2.

3. What, precisely is an "ethicists"? The Church used to use confessors to help the faithful resolve ethical problems. Today, it seems that "ethics" isn't a moral issue but whatever the rules and regulations say one can get away with. I believe the term "ethicist" is a word without real meaning.

4. I don't know if there are any traditional exorcists, but I would think that all Conciliar exorcists are worthless since the Conciliar church really doesn't believe in the supernatural.

5. "Invincible ignorance" is a traditional term if it is understood in a traditional sense. Invincible ignorance means that a person is excused from a sin of unbelief because he has never had the opportunity to know the truth. A newly baptized baby, for example, is invincibly ignorant of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (or any other doctrine for that matter). If the baptized baby dies before reaching the age of reason, he is sinless because of that invincible ignorance. Invincible ignorance can also excuse a person even though he has reached the age of reason if he has never been taught and never could have learned a particular doctrine. This does not excuse moral sins against the natural law written in the hearts of all men. Nor does it save so that one needn't receive the sacrament of Baptism.

6. I don't know about organizations that provide evangelism pamphlets for Protestants. Unfortunately, given the crisis in the Church, Catholics already have their hands full trying to convert "Catholics" to the Catholic faith. You just can't convert someone using a tweet.

7. I'm not overly family with the miracle you obviously have a great devotion for.

Jitpring · « **Reply #6 on:** May 20, 2011, 08:47:17 PM »

Regarding exorcism, listen at night in the darkness of your room:

Fr. Martin has since passed on.

Lanciano8 · « **Reply #7 on:** May 21, 2011, 03:24:07 AM »

Thank you all for your comments.

Of course, on the "adoration" thing, I know the 1st Commandment, as I would hope most Christians do. It was just that I wondered if the specific statement could be confirmed, and from where. I guess it's a matter of intent anymore, just like with "worship".

On "ethicists", I asked because someone I know once recommended I see a Catholic ethicist (who would most likely be modernist) about vasectomy to avoid having a(nother) child who could turn out schizophrenic like my sister. Supposedly an (modernist) ethicist would say that a vasectomy is okay. Of course, I believe true Church teaching that it is not okay (except maybe to remove cancer, etc.?).

I'll try that youtube when I get a chance....

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #8 on:** May 21, 2011, 10:22:36 AM »

Hi, Lanciano. Hopefully these answers will help you...

Yes, it is true that God is the only One that we should adore. God is the only one we worship (we worship the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost). So again, our only adoration should be given to God. There is, however, one exception to this. During Holy Week, we also adore the Cross because as you already know, it represents something very important. Jesus died on it for us, so during that time of year we are to adore the Cross, and in the act of doing so we are adoring God.

As far as groups that provide material to argue against Protestants and modernists, as LP said the Society of St. Pius X does in fact offer plenty of material, especially when dealing with modernists. I suggest visiting their web-site for more information.

God Bless.

PartyIsOver221 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 21, 2011, 12:09:13 PM »

Quote from: Jitpring

Regarding exorcism, listen at night in the darkness of your room:

Fr. Martin has since passed on.

I'll have to check this one out, ty for the link.

Jamie · « **Reply #10 on:** May 22, 2011, 05:09:45 PM »

The answer to your first question is more clear when the correct terms are used.

Latria - adoration - this is given to God alone and to offer it to anyone or thing else is a sin against the first commandment. An example of this is when we kneel in front of the Eucharist and adore it.

Dulia - this is worship and is given only to saints and angels. Confusion arises because protestants think this is the only form of worship and that doing so is a sin against the first commandment - which it is not. Dulia is when we pray to the saints or perform other acts of reverence to them.

Hyper-Dulia - this is like dulia but taken to a higher form - it is offered only to the Blessed Virgin Mary and, like dulia, is not a sin against the first commandment.