Author Topic: Usury? "Pawn Shop"  (Read 4276 times)

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Offline Agobard

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Usury? "Pawn Shop"
« on: July 05, 2010, 06:52:05 PM »
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  • Could a Catholic start a non-profit "pawn shop" where the needy poor take out loans using their valuable goods as collateral. The loan would be no more than 2/3 of the value of the good put up as collateral and would last 1 year. This organization would collect a moderate interest (4-12%) on the loan. Plus, the non-profit organization has to store and secure the good, so perhaps it would not be "purely" interest.

    The salary for the "overseer" of the non-profit organization would definitely take care of his/her needs. The rest of the net income would pay for the salaries of the workers and to expand this charitable "pawn shop" organization.

    Is this sort of arrangement, Catholic?

    Offline Alexandria

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    Usury? "Pawn Shop"
    « Reply #1 on: July 05, 2010, 06:56:35 PM »
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  • As a need and poor Catholic, I'll answer you.

    You sound like a shyster.  It's a sin to take advantage of someone desperate for money.

    Charitable pawn shop!  You live in a bubble.


    Offline Agobard

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    Usury? "Pawn Shop"
    « Reply #2 on: July 05, 2010, 06:59:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: Alexandria
    As a need and poor Catholic, I'll answer you.

    You sound like a shyster.  It's a sin to take advantage of someone desperate for money.

    Charitable pawn shop!  You live in a bubble.


    Thank you for your response.

    Any other opinions on this hypothetical "pawn shop".

    It also would collect money by asking "donations for the poor". That money would them be lent out at "interest".

    Is this, sort of organization, Catholic?

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Usury? "Pawn Shop"
    « Reply #3 on: July 05, 2010, 06:59:55 PM »
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  • Helping people in trouble by holding their goods in pawn is an interesting idea.  I don't know if you want to call it a "pawn shop" though.

    Offline Trinity

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    Usury? "Pawn Shop"
    « Reply #4 on: July 05, 2010, 07:01:41 PM »
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  • It would be no more charitable than Salvation Army and Goodwill.  Unless you consider the manager as the recipient of charity.
    +RIP
    Please pray for the repose of her soul.


    Online Matto

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    Usury? "Pawn Shop"
    « Reply #5 on: July 05, 2010, 07:11:28 PM »
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  • Maybe you could open a brothel next door.

    Offline Dulcamara

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    Usury? "Pawn Shop"
    « Reply #6 on: July 05, 2010, 07:12:41 PM »
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  • EDITED.

    Quote
    In the Council of Vienne (1311) it was declared that if any person obstinately maintained that there was no sin in the practice of demanding interest, he should be punished as a heretic (see c. "Ex gravi", unic. Clem., "De usuris", V, 5).
    I renounce any and all of my former views against what the Church through Pope Leo XIII said, "This, then, is the teaching of the Catholic Church ...no one of the several forms of government is in itself condemned, inasmuch as none of them contains anythi

    Offline Alexandria

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    Usury? "Pawn Shop"
    « Reply #7 on: July 05, 2010, 07:16:32 PM »
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  • He's a typical do-gooder.  Not interested in really helping the poor, only interested in feeling good about himself and getting other people who aren't poor to pat him on the back telling him how charitable and helpful he is.

    This really has me fuming.

    How did the mafia ever miss you?


    Offline Trinity

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    Usury? "Pawn Shop"
    « Reply #8 on: July 05, 2010, 07:19:36 PM »
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  • Dulcamara, there is.  It's called St Vincent de Paul
    +RIP
    Please pray for the repose of her soul.

    Offline Agobard

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    Usury? "Pawn Shop"
    « Reply #9 on: July 05, 2010, 08:54:39 PM »
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  • Quote from: Alexandria
    He's a typical do-gooder.  Not interested in really helping the poor, only interested in feeling good about himself and getting other people who aren't poor to pat him on the back telling him how charitable and helpful he is.

    This really has me fuming.

    How did the mafia ever miss you?


    Don't be fuming. I was reading Denzinger and came across Montes Pietatis and how they were "Church sanctioned" and am still wondering how they are moral if usury is a sin and there is no investment involved, just loans to poor people. Does anyone know what make Montes Pietatis moral and not the "lesser of two evils". Because like Alexandria, I feel a repugnance to Montes Pietatis. It is loaning money to poor people and expecting more than what was loaned.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10534d.htm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monti_di_pietà

    Any help would be appreciated.

    Offline Matthew

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    Usury? "Pawn Shop"
    « Reply #10 on: July 05, 2010, 11:50:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: Dulcamara

    I wish there were a Catholic good-will place! (Off topic.)


    There's always selling your stuff on Craigslist and/or a garage sale -- then putting the money to good use (your own family, or another family that needs it more, depending on your situation).

    That way, only you and/or your beneficiary benefits by the good -- not some heretical middleman (such as the Salvation Army, which is a protestant sect) Goodwill is a greedy for-profit company, too. I knew someone who worked there -- it's not a good organization at all.

    Matthew
    Start your Amazon.com session by clicking this link, and my family and I get a commission on your purchase!


    Offline Dulcamara

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    Usury? "Pawn Shop"
    « Reply #11 on: July 05, 2010, 11:55:40 PM »
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  • EDITED.

    Quote
    In the Council of Vienne (1311) it was declared that if any person obstinately maintained that there was no sin in the practice of demanding interest, he should be punished as a heretic (see c. "Ex gravi", unic. Clem., "De usuris", V, 5).
    I renounce any and all of my former views against what the Church through Pope Leo XIII said, "This, then, is the teaching of the Catholic Church ...no one of the several forms of government is in itself condemned, inasmuch as none of them contains anythi

    Offline Agobard

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    Usury? "Pawn Shop"
    « Reply #12 on: July 06, 2010, 12:57:55 AM »
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  • Quote from: Dulcamara
    Loaning money to the poor may not be as good as GIVING it, but depending on what is charged, it may be the next best thing. If you're broke, and you need money like RIGHT NOW... and all of your options are just a bunch of people who are going to charge you as bad as credit cards would... then I dare say almost anything would be better.


    Poor people do not sin when they take out interest loans to pay for their basic needs. The people charging interest do.

    Quote from: Dulcamara
    I heard on the news once about an organization simply lending money to the poor outright, at a low interest rate (but only very small sums, like in the hundreds of dollars range). Sounds like they sure helped a lot of people that way. Can't Catholics do something similar? I'm sure they can. It's only evil if you're charging an amount that would be unjust or hurting these poor people unduly.


    I always understood it as any interest loan for consumption goods was immoral for the person lending. There is no such thing as an ambiguous usurious threshold interest amount, once crossed "it is now usury". That is a modern notion, that "10% interest rates are fine, once you get to 15% it is usurious" or whatever."Interest" can be charged for company investments, then you are sharing in the profits of the company (stocks, dividends, etc).

    Quote from: Dulcamara
    Just because someone thinks of "lending" doesn't make it evil. If you haven't got much money to work with yourself, you don't have much to lend, or to loose with unscrupulous borrowers. And you have to make SOMETHING to keep the operation going, especially how people get scalped in taxes whenever they attempt to employ themselves. As long as the rates are moral and just, I don't see why this is such an evil idea.


    "Interest" loans for businesses are different than interest loans for bread for starving poor (consumables). For the reason I stated above. No interest should ever be charged for consumption loans. So the Church, I believed, taught.

    Quote
    In the Council of Vienne (1311) it was declared that if any person obstinately maintained that there was no sin in the practice of demanding interest, he should be punished as a heretic (see c. "Ex gravi", unic. Clem., "De usuris", V, 5).


    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15235c.htm

    So how can Montes Pietatis be reconciled with the Church's teaching on usury?

    Offline Dulcamara

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    Usury? "Pawn Shop"
    « Reply #13 on: July 06, 2010, 01:09:35 AM »
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  • Quote from: Agobard


    Quote
    In the Council of Vienne (1311) it was declared that if any person obstinately maintained that there was no sin in the practice of demanding interest, he should be punished as a heretic (see c. "Ex gravi", unic. Clem., "De usuris", V, 5).


    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15235c.htm

    So how can Montes Pietatis be reconciled with the Church's teaching on usury?


    I've never heard of that before. But naturally, I'm with the Church. If I was wrong, I was wrong.
    I renounce any and all of my former views against what the Church through Pope Leo XIII said, "This, then, is the teaching of the Catholic Church ...no one of the several forms of government is in itself condemned, inasmuch as none of them contains anythi

    Offline Agobard

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    Usury? "Pawn Shop"
    « Reply #14 on: July 06, 2010, 01:23:23 AM »
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  • More background:

    Quote from: Pope Benedict XIV - ON USURY AND OTHER DISHONEST PROFIT
    The nature of the sin called usury has its proper place and origin in a loan contract. This financial contract between consenting parties demands, by its very nature, that one return to another only as much as he has received. The sin rests on the fact that sometimes the creditor desires more than he has given. Therefore he contends some gain is owed him beyond that which he loaned, but any gain which exceeds the amount he gave is illicit and usurious.


    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Ben14/b14vixpe.htm

     

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