Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: AnthonyPadua on March 27, 2025, 06:45:55 PM
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Came across this image/study today. (Pic posted below)
Data from 2023 that involved a nationwide study of 36,908 people. Nearly 2 out of every 3 Orthodox Christians are men. It seems that the orthodox (at least in the US) are having an issue where there is very little women in proportion to their men. And if you consider the number of older women this number is probably much worse.
Do you think this could mean more 'orthodox bros' will end up changing their religion just to find a wife? Or maybe it will cause them to look more into Traditional Catholicism. I wonder if Trads Caths even have good numbers in regards to young women. The data only says "Catholic" which includes novus ordo.
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Interesting statistic. I'm wondering if this means that the Orthodox have retained their traditions since tradition seems to be anathema to the average American female.
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Came across this image/study today. (Pic posted below)
Data from 2023 that involved a nationwide study of 36,908 people. Nearly 2 out of every 3 Orthodox Christians are men. It seems that the orthodox (at least in the US) are having an issue where there is very little women in proportion to their men. And if you consider the number of older women this number is probably much worse.
Do you think this could mean more 'orthodox bros' will end up changing their religion just to find a wife? Or maybe it will cause them to look more into Traditional Catholicism. I wonder if Trads Caths even have good numbers in regards to young women. The data only says "Catholic" which includes novus ordo.
Be aware that the sample size was only 225 Orthodox people. The Margin of error is +-10 percentage points for the Orthodox. So, there are likely fewer Orthodox women, but probably not nearly to the degree that it appears at first glance.
(https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2025/02/PR_2025.02.26_religious-landscape-study_M-01.png)
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Most practicing Orthodox men that go to church each week are converts. The women are usually wives of priests, the presbytera/panimatka. Cradle Orthodox are primarily Greeks who show up for Pascha and life events.
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It is a similar phenomenon to that seen in trad circles but on a much larger scale: many conversions of young men and couples. Single women are less likely to convert due to the temperament of women. Young men are attracted by the tradition, and the truth of the ancient Faith. There are many large families in both cases though, so the demographics will balance out in time.
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Or maybe it will cause them to look more into Traditional Catholicism. I wonder if Trad Caths even have good numbers in regards to young women. The data only says "Catholic" which includes Novus Ordo.
Just off the top of my head, I am thinking it might be a similar percentage. Obviously in the case of families, there will be one man, one woman, and on the average, an equal number of minor boys and girls, but outside of that demographic, traditional Catholicism seems to skew male. The phenomenon of single traditionalist Catholic men being unable to find like-minded wives is well-known (of course, some do).
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Because it's too hard for them. The standards are too high. It doesn't appease their egos and earthly ambitions.
U.S. women are extremely weak, corrupted and selfish.
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Because it's too hard for them. The standards are too high. It doesn't appease their egos and earthly ambitions.
It's also a much bigger "ask" for a woman than it is for a man. A traditional Catholic woman has to accept the possibility that she might end up having to bear, raise, and care for a large family if she marries, or else remain single for life. Having a "fun-sized" family, having her tubes tied when she's had the two or three that she wants, and juggling a career in the midst of all that, isn't a choice that traditional Catholicism offers, and for many women, I have to think that staying single isn't to their liking either. (And don't forget, the larger society almost universally accepts premarital sex. A reasonably attractive woman under a certain age can have all the sex she wants, so why settle for the same man forever? For men, it's not so easy.)
But it kind of cuts both ways. A man, especially in today's world, has to situate himself so that he would be able to support such a family, and quite frankly, not all men can do that, some can barely take care of themselves (and add to that the preference for women and various other demographics, that makes it harder for many men to find good jobs). Likewise, "we'll just have two or three, and we'll both work" isn't a choice.
There can always be exceptions (for instance, a woman who has some kind of physical disorder that prevents her from conceiving, either before having any children, or something that comes up afterwards), but I speak here of the general situation.
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It's also a much bigger "ask" for a woman than it is for a man. A traditional Catholic woman has to accept the possibility that she might end up having to bear, raise, and care for a large family if she marries, or else remain single for life. Having a "fun-sized" family, having her tubes tied when she's had the two or three that she wants, and juggling a career in the midst of all that, isn't a choice that traditional Catholicism offers.
But it kind of cuts both ways. A man, especially in today's world, has to situate himself so that he would be able to support such a family, and quite frankly, not all men can do that, some can barely take care of themselves (and add to that the preference for women and various other demographics, that makes it harder for many men to find good jobs). Likewise, "we'll just have two or three, and we'll both work" isn't a choice.
There can always be exceptions (for instance, a woman who has some kind of physical disorder that prevents her from conceiving, either before having any children, or something that comes up afterwards), but I speak here of the general situation.
Also depends on the local priest, my priest recommends women to get married at/around?after?/wait until 25 because of "brain development", usually this means a good man will overlook them and will pick the younger girls or these older girls have small/medium sized families due lack of time. This might work in cases where the man can't provide until he is much older (30+) but I really don't know what these women are "ok" with when it comes to a man's ahe and an age gap.
I agree it's hard for both the men and women, I've seen a few older people 30+ who aren't married, both men and women, but I am not privy on the exact details to why they haven't or can't find someone.
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Also depends on the local priest, my priest recommends women to get married at/around?after?/wait until 25 because of "brain development", usually this means a good man will overlook them and will pick the younger girls or these older girls have small/medium sized families due lack of time. This might work in cases where the man can't provide until he is much older (30+) but I really don't know what these women are "ok" with when it comes to a man's ahe and an age gap.
I agree it's hard for both the men and women, I've seen a few older people 30+ who aren't married, both men and women, but I am not privy on the exact details to why they haven't or can't find someone.
In the larger society, being 30 (of either sex) and not married is seen as entirely normal. (Full disclosure, I was 32 when I got married.)
And in our culture, with the economy being what it is, unless a man has taken up some kind of in-demand and reasonably well-paying trade, it's more and more difficult for a man under 30 to be established enough to support a family.
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In the larger society, being 30 (of either sex) and not married is seen as entirely normal. (Full disclosure, I was 32 when I got married.)
And in our culture, with the economy being what it is, unless a man has taken up some kind of in-demand and reasonably well-paying trade, it's more and more difficult for a man under 30 to be established enough to support a family.
But you are the man not the women. I personally think it's fine for a women either in her teens or early 20s to get married to men who are older than then, whether he be in their 20s, 30s or even 40s. It depends on a lot of factors and is a case by case basis.
This was always normal in the past but a lot of modern people are brainwashed into thinking an age gap is bad, or that the power imbalance is 'sexist'. A man should have 'power/authority' over his wife, it helps her to trust and admire him more, which secular women have issues with while they pretend to be both independent and submissive to a 'real man'.
After all the man leads not the women, hence why I think it is unnecessary for a women to wait until 25 for her brain development to 'finish' (actually read that it's 22/23 for womens brain and 25 for mens, which makes sense since women are usually 2-3 years ahead of men in terms of development).
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In the larger society, being 30 (of either sex) and not married is seen as entirely normal. (Full disclosure, I was 32 when I got married.)
And in our culture, with the economy being what it is, unless a man has taken up some kind of in-demand and reasonably well-paying trade, it's more and more difficult for a man under 30 to be established enough to support a family.
Also for a women 30+ is very late to start having children from a biological stand point. 35 is considered a geriatric pregnancy (though I would personally argue 30 is geriatric, though I haven't checked the 'science')
While a man having children at 30 is no big deal, there will be only around 5-10% of sperm degradation in terms of quality compared to their early/mid 20s. (I am unsure if this is true or modern (((science))) ).
Essentially even if the man's fertility is slightly lower by 40 he can still have many children with little genetic issues, while a women past 35 (even 30) just doesn't have the time to have many children and has a much higher risk of having abnormalities with the children.
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In the larger society, being 30 (of either sex) and not married is seen as entirely normal. (Full disclosure, I was 32 when I got married.)
And in our culture, with the economy being what it is, unless a man has taken up some kind of in-demand and reasonably well-paying trade, it's more and more difficult for a man under 30 to be established enough to support a family.
I'm 24, and It seems like an impossible concept sometimes, finding a woman of like mind and raising a family of faith in these days. ofc, I have a ways to go before i'm financially comfortable enough to consider it, but still. I admire all those men who manage to do it despite seemingly every odd against them. Thanks be to God.
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And in our culture, with the economy being what it is, unless a man has taken up some kind of in-demand and reasonably well-paying trade, it's more and more difficult for a man under 30 to be established enough to support a family.
The trades in recent years have been a good field to look at (no cost or low-cost apprenticeship and community college training programs, being paid while you train, good wages when there are strong unions). This winter quarter just ended I took a welding class at my local community college, our lab was Monday and Wednesday 6 - 9 PM as most of the students (and the instructor) worked during the day. One of students is 23 or 24 and in the third year of a five-year electrician apprenticeship program. He's taking welding as a side skill, planning to be certified, but his primary occupation will be as an electrician. He has to front his tuition, but if he passes all the classes his union will reimburse him. When he finishes his current year of apprenticeship his salary will max out at 80% of journeyman level. He's single and said he is getting a lot of overtime. Though still an apprentice he made $100,000 in wages last year.
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How many on this forum know cradle Orthodox personally? Not converts, but cradle?
Their religious zeal is usually tied to and ecclipsed by ethnic nationalism. Not obligated in Eastern canons to what we westerners call "Sunday obligation", their attendance at Divine liturgy can be very spotty with women -- older women -- attending more frequently than men. Further, for North America, the further one is generationally from Orthodox immigrants, the less one practices Orthodoxy, eventually abandoning Orthodoxy for "none-ism".
If this sounds similar to North American Catholics that is because it is.
What is the difference between Catholic Croats and Orthodox Serbs? Beats me! Both match the description given above, but they certainly consider themselves to be wholly different and agressively incompatible even if their languages and cultures are so similar and they come from a common Balkans fatherland. By third or fourth generation in America, neither is Catholic or Orthodox in any meaningful way.
Also reminds me of an Irish American in her 50s who once said to me: " Oh yeah! I was raised Catholic. When I was young, my family would break bread (???) at Christmas and Thanksgiving dinner and always went to the St. Patrick's Day Parade." 🤯
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Their religious zeal is usually tied to and ecclipsed by ethnic nationalism.
We see that some in the Catholic Eastern Rites as well, and in fact when you have both, say, Ukrainian Orthodox and Ukrainian Catholic, it also inspired a certain amount of "EcuŠ¼enical" sentiment, due to this IMO undue / exaggerated emphasis on that ethnic nationalism (the recent rift due to Ukrainian Orthodox ties to Russia notwithstanding ... but that's just one example).
Meanwhile, we have the Roman Rite in the West that crosses so many national boundaries that there's almost no association with any culture or ethnicity, except for on a micro-leve, where for instance, in a Polish neighborhood the Catholic Church might just happen to consiste 95% of Poles.
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I can speak with some familiarity regarding the Orthodox church because half my family was raised in it.
This thread started off speculating on how all these newly converted Orthobros might be sadly disappointed
at the dearth of single Orthodox women.
Orthodox churches are almost exclusively comprised of people from a particular Eastern European background, so
some wasp or American mutt who listens to Jay Dyer and joins a Greek, Serbian, Russian church is going to be
surrounded only by Greeks, Serbian, Russians depending upon the church. Their culture is going to be very alien to them.
And let me tell you, these people are very clanish, have their own language, ethnic customs, foods, social circles.
The ethnic element easily outweighs the religious element by a ratio of 90/10.
If you happen to find a single Orthodox woman past 30 she's probably been divorced already and she probably won't be interested in a man who isn't the same ethnicity.
I haven't bothered to look up the statistics but it's not at all uncommon to meet Orthodox women and men who have been married, divorced, remarried multiple times. It doesn't even raise an eyebrow as you get 3 chances in that religion. I've even known Orthodox priests who were divorced and remarried.
I'll relate a funny story:
There was a big social event at an Orthodox church in my area about 15 years ago. They had some well known
bands playing their folk music, which I happen to like, so I decided to check it out.
These events are more or less a pretext to drink a lot and meet a member of the opposite sex.
I remember being treated like a leper even though I thought my name and physiognomy would allow me to blend in.
Nope, as my father later explained, "if they don't know you they don't want to know you."
Perhaps things have changed since then as more families have assimilated to American culture.
Things are just as bad in tradland if you're a single male. I can't recall the last time I've seen a single Catholic woman between the ages of 22-50 at a TLM in my area, and I've been to all of them: indult, FSSP, SSPX, etc.
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If you happen to find a single Orthodox woman past 30
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Things are just as bad in tradland if you're a single male. I can't recall the last time I've seen a single Catholic woman between the ages of 22-50 at a TLM in my area, and I've been to all of them: indult, FSSP, SSPX, etc.
I think it's about the lack of young ladies not older women.
That last statement is quite sad. Are you financially ready for a marriage? Do you feel rejected by the parents? Also why 22-50? If there are none in that age range then doesn't that mean the girls get married younger? So would you say there are single girls in the 16-21 age bracket?
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Not obligated in Eastern canons to what we westerners call "Sunday obligation", their attendance at Divine liturgy can be very spotty
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Oh, interesting. They don't have to go to church on Sunday? That might explain a lot of the enthusiasm for schism today among people who want to leave traditional Catholicism.
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How many on this forum know cradle Orthodox personally? Not converts, but cradle?
Their religious zeal is usually tied to and ecclipsed by ethnic nationalism. Not obligated in Eastern canons to what we westerners call "Sunday obligation", their attendance at Divine liturgy can be very spotty with women -- older women -- attending more frequently than men. Further, for North America, the further one is generationally from Orthodox immigrants, the less one practices Orthodoxy, eventually abandoning Orthodoxy for "none-ism".
If this sounds similar to North American Catholics that is because it is.
What is the difference between Catholic Croats and Orthodox Serbs? Beats me! Both match the description given above, but they certainly consider themselves to be wholly different and agressively incompatible even if their languages and cultures are so similar and they come from a common Balkans fatherland. By third or fourth generation in America, neither is Catholic or Orthodox in any meaningful way.
Also reminds me of an Irish American in her 50s who once said to me: " Oh yeah! I was raised Catholic. When I was young, my family would break bread (???) at Christmas and Thanksgiving dinner and always went to the St. Patrick's Day Parade." 🤯
I knew one, Syrian-American Antiochene Orthodox. Her ethnicity and religion were all of a piece.
I'm reminded of that scene from My Big Fat Greek Wedding where Ian was baptized. They said "now he's Greek!". I just wanted to gag.
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Orthodox churches are almost exclusively comprised of people from a particular Eastern European background, so
some wasp or American mutt who listens to Jay Dyer and joins a Greek, Serbian, Russian church is going to be
surrounded only by Greeks, Serbian, Russians depending upon the church. Their culture is going to be very alien to them.
And let me tell you, these people are very clanish, have their own language, ethnic customs, foods, social circles.
The ethnic element easily outweighs the religious element by a ratio of 90/10...
I remember being treated like a leper even though I thought my name and physiognomy would allow me to blend in.
Nope, as my father later explained, "if they don't know you they don't want to know you."
How true. Actually, I am thankful they are as insular as they are --- it kills any temptation I might have to become Orthodox. The only Orthodox environment I could even remotely blend into, would be Russian or Ukrainian, and even then, it's a world apart.
I have a ton of experience with Polish-in-Poland Catholics, and I can tell you first-hand, they expect you to swallow absolutely everything about their culture and religiosity, and not to question things in any way, a kind of Slavic "Law of Jante". I never quite fit in. (And it makes them kind of squishy when you actually know basic conversational Polish. I found that they expected you just to be able to say "dziekuje" --- "thank you" --- and tell them, via a translator, how wonderful their food and hospitality is.)
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This was always normal in the past but a lot of modern people are brainwashed into thinking an age gap is bad, or that the power imbalance is 'sexist'. A man should have 'power/authority' over his wife, it helps her to trust and admire him more, which secular women have issues
I agree, my wife is 11 years younger than me, and I do feel she relies and trusts me more because I am established and have more life experience. Most women today are very selfish, but also very good at hiding it. Even in "Trad" spheres. (my opinion)
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I think it's about the lack of young ladies not older women.
That last statement is quite sad. Are you financially ready for a marriage? Do you feel rejected by the parents? Also why 22-50? If there are none in that age range then doesn't that mean the girls get married younger? So would you say there are single girls in the 16-21 age bracket?
It's difficult enough finding a single white woman without tattoos, a baby daddy, who isn't a leftist, hasn't been vaxxed, isn't a moloch worshipper, etc.
A single trad Catholic woman of child bearing age? Maybe they exist, maybe the Loch Ness monster exists but I haven't spotted either in the wild.
Oh, and I wanted to add something else to my other post regarding Orthodox and Eastern European women in general.
Generally speaking their good qualities are:
Much more feminine and stylish than their American counterparts.
Much less inclined to date outside their race
More conservative politically
More family oriented, more into traditional gender roles.
More cultured, you can talk to them about art, literature, poetry, philosophy.
The accent!
The bad qualities:
Very guarded and reserved emotionally. I've seen this with Polish, Romanian, Russian, Serbian women. Both the ones born here and in the old country.
If you're seeking romantic gestures and demonstrative declarations of love..forget it. The only
way to know that they like/care about you is if they are still with you.
A bit more materialistic, high maintenance in terms of maintaining their appearance.
Kind of humorless(could be due to English being a second language)
I think those who grew up partially under communism in the Eastern block were greatly affected by it.
They tend not to be romantic or idealize things, almost practical and sensible to a fault. The 1st generation
Americans are very ambitious, go getter types.
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I briefly courted a Ukrainian woman in her 30s, never married, from Ukraine, baptized Ukrainian Orthodox, poor English as she's only been here since after the war started. No tattoos. Natural attractiveness. Amazing eyes like a cat. She seemed, at least, somewhat traditional. But I detected she was selfish and an aspiring worldling. Whenever I informed her of some ill health of my aging mom, never did she ask me about how she is doing in subsequent interactions.
I knew of another Ukrainian woman about the same age but here in the States a lot longer, and fluent in English, but littered with tattoos.
No thanks.
I'll take Russian women, indeed.
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Also for a women 30+ is very late to start having children from a biological stand point. 35 is considered a geriatric pregnancy (though I would personally argue 30 is geriatric, though I haven't checked the 'science')
While a man having children at 30 is no big deal, there will be only around 5-10% of sperm degradation in terms of quality compared to their early/mid 20s. (I am unsure if this is true or modern (((science))) ).
Essentially even if the man's fertility is slightly lower by 40 he can still have many children with little genetic issues, while a women past 35 (even 30) just doesn't have the time to have many children and has a much higher risk of having abnormalities with the children.
It is possible to have a decent size family after 30. All of my children were born to me after 30.
In trad circles, the girls choose to be single or leave because the example of marriage from parents was poor.
So how do we encourage stronger marriages that teach men and women proper behavior. How do people bring joy back to the family?
Just for clarity, I write this to get people thinking, not because I have some secret agenda.:cowboy:
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It is possible to have a decent size family after 30. All of my children were born to me after 30.
In trad circles, the girls choose to be single or leave because the example of marriage from parents was poor.
So how do we encourage stronger marriages that teach men and women proper behavior. How do people bring joy back to the family?
Just for clarity, I write this to get people thinking, not because I have some secret agenda.:cowboy:
What do you consider to be a decent size family?
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What do you consider to be a decent size family?
My opinion is a decent size for Catholic standards is 7 (5 children).