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Author Topic: Upcoming "creationist" movie!  (Read 7422 times)

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Offline Dylan

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Upcoming "creationist" movie!
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2008, 09:26:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cletus
    I can understand it.

    I find it very refreshing.

    Before Vatican II American Catholics had such a revolting "Me Too" attitude towards the Modern World. It was weird. On the one hand they had such a chip on their shoulders about bucking the Modern World on belief in God and the Virgin Birth and the indissolubility of marriage and so forth. It was as though they had an irresistible cimpulsion to make it up to the Modern World by dint of contrary backlash. So they went all out to prove themselved true children of the Enlightenment in whatever way they could get away with.

    They made a mockery of the dogma that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church of Rome. They turned the notion of Invincible Ignorance into the Eight Sacrament.

    They started to whittle away at belief in the miracles of the Old Testament. They started to get diabolically foxy in this area. They made it an act of Romanist piety to DOUBT that Lot's wife really turned around for a peek and got turned into a pillar of salt. They posited Catholics who insisted on Taking It Literally as being suspect of heresy: the heresy of Protestant Fundamentalism.

    They embraced Darwinism. They didn't think that Jehovah would mind. They said, "Oh, there will be room for Him too, somewhere in there, if we work hard enough and squeeze Him in the back door according to our own theological lights. Not that we have to offend the sensibilities of our good scientific atheist friends and neighbors by reminding them of His existence and of the data of Revelation."

    I don't understand why someone wouldn't understand why Trads would applaud the science of Intelligent Design. Even some Novus Ordo conservatives seem sympatheric to it.

    And how do we feel about bringing the lousy, sentimental poetry of Atheism into science classes under cover of Modern Science?

    How do we feel about telling kids raised on the Heavenly Father Whose eye is on the sparrow that whereas our benighed medieval forebears felt cozy and at home on their flat earth under the eye of their all-good and all-wise Creator, we moderns know that we are just a singularly advanced colony of apes hurtling through a universe in which all ideas of meaning and order and right and wrong and truth and falsehood are chimerical?

    In discussions among Catholics of Intelligent Design and Creationism and what Pope Pius XII allowed and what he didn't there should always be constant reference to the question of Adam and Eve, a point on which Pope Pius XII did not budge. To say the least, Modern Science does not take Adam and Eve seriously.

    Catholic are required to take it as an historical fact that all mankind is really descended from one man and one woman who really lived in a state of bliss somewhere on this earth and really sinned and really got kicked out, so to speak, from their Paradise. How that relates to the cavemen is something we all have to puzzle out. The Evolutionary model of how mankind developed -men mating with animals for ages until, happily, Cupid was able to bring the equally evolved together-is as unconvincing as it is disgusting.



    Excellent post!

    Offline Cletus

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    Upcoming "creationist" movie!
    « Reply #16 on: April 09, 2008, 11:05:03 PM »
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  • Thank you.

    Different Traditional Catholics have different views on the age of the universe and the development of lower species and so forth.

    But all believe in a literal Adam and Eve. Even the few who are so far bent over backwards in the 1950s Me Too attitude towards Modern Science that they seem to support an argument for descent from scungilli.

    I take the point that so-called Intelligent Design science might seem to be not "fundamentalist" enough for some Traditonal Catholics. But isn't that being a little hard on Traditional Catholics? To suppose that no one gets the distinction between what can be known to Reason and what it known by Revelation?

    It's always upsetting to see simple believers tripped up when Rationalists pull Aquinas out of their sleeve as someone who did NOT believe that Creation in time can be deduced by reason from what is observable. But sometimes we have to learn the hard way. Believers can and do err by confusing what is known by faith with what is known by reason and introducing the disciplines of theology into the discipline of science.

    But they never err in this way anywhere near as badly as the Godless sons of Belial who call themselves Modern Scientists do. The Darwinists, for example. The Apostles of the Will To Power. The prim little acolytes of Meaninglessness.

    Probably more Traditional Catholics today than run-of-the-mill Catholics fifty years ago know their Angelic Doctor well enough to know that he DID teach that a Prime Mover and an Uncaused Cause can be deduced by reason.

    It seems unfair to make such a bugaboo of the "intrusion" of Faith into the science class and to ignore the fact that nowadays moronic blasphemies and nihilistic histrionics (" evolved apes hurtling to doom in the endless black of a meaningless cosmos") are like Ned and Nellie in the primer.





    Offline Vandaler

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    « Reply #17 on: April 09, 2008, 11:54:19 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cletus
    I take the point that so-called Intelligent Design science might seem to be not "fundamentalist" enough for some Traditonal Catholics.


    You then understand the basis of my puzzlement.  I don't mean to be hard on anyone.  I won't even defend that my puzzlement is justified.

    Quote from: Cletus
    But isn't that being a little hard on Traditional Catholics? To suppose that no one gets the distinction between what can be known to Reason and what it known by Revelation?


    But I'm not sure the above is what is at stake when it comes to evaluating the merits of Intelligent Design.

    The whole premise of I.D. is that in nature, there is a number of elements that are to complex to have evolved, and thus had to be made whole immediately.  There is not much more to it.

    Refuting the above, which I regard as a weak argument, does not constitute a refutation to creation.  It's just an argument, in part of a very complex debate.

    Offline Cletus

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    « Reply #18 on: April 10, 2008, 01:49:30 AM »
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  • Okay. You're still puzzled and I'm still puzzled. The world will still turn. (We won't say revolve around the sun.)

    It still seems hard to me to say that it's puzzling that "Trads" would favor Intelligent Design science, the presupposition apparently being that they're all such pea-brained fideists that it is hardly to be expected that they care about science at all, eeven bad science.

    At this point I'll have to crack open the books and review I.D. arguments. I don't think that it's all as simple as you make it.

    I also think that you know that some scientists merely poke holes in received Evolutionary dogma, or ask awkward questions, and that for that Thought Crime are subject to the Inquisition and the the auto-da-fe. So to speak.

    I think that we all know that the rule in the Modern Classroom is that any fact that does not favor Atheism as regards God or Modernism as regards the Son of God is very, very Naughty Fact. For example. the Keystone cops history of Serious Modern Science's trying to come up with a Missing Link to to prove Evolution is a Naughty Fact that must be admitted only with the worst possible grace.

    Another such Naughty Fact is that Jesus of Nazareth really did exist. No one would last very long at dumps like Yale or the Sorbonne if he REALLY doubted that fact. But it is still a Naughty Fact and is presented as such to students in the Modern Classroom.

    But I'm still puzzled as to why anyone would pick on the David of "I.D." and his scientific inadequacies when the Goliath of Godless Evolutionary fantasy continues its irrational rampage through the halls of academe.

    "A correct understanding of Evolution demonstrates that marital fidelity is unnatural and impossible."

    "Men must hate and battle other men, otherwise Evolutionary reality is being defied."

    That's Modern Science for you right there. That's the received wisdom in the Science Classroom.

    And remember. We were not talking about the laboratory and the field. We were talking about the classroom and the alleged threat THERE of the Intelligent Design theorists. I'm saying that these latter could not possibly be worse as classroom scientists than the Godless sons of Belial who use science as a cover for preaching the above enormities to their captive audiences.

    Why are Darwinist fairy tales deemed scientifically superior to Bible stories or scientific at all?

    Offline Cletus

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    « Reply #19 on: April 10, 2008, 01:59:44 AM »
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  • Sorry. I'm not accusing even Godless academe of being so sloppy as to say, "A correct understanding of Evolution demonstrates..."

    Make that, "A correct understanding of Evolution leads one to believe..."

    I also want to reiterate that I'm taking my stance in the midst of the Garden of Eden alongside our first parents.

    It is contemptibly unscientific of Modern Science to say that that CANNOT be the way we got here and that there HAS TO BE some other explanation and then to go looking for one and to fake evidence that it has found one and to browbeat schoolchildren into believing that it has found one.


    Offline clare

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    Upcoming "creationist" movie!
    « Reply #20 on: April 10, 2008, 05:32:33 AM »
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  • Quote from: Vandaler
    Quote from: Cletus
    I take the point that so-called Intelligent Design science might seem to be not "fundamentalist" enough for some Traditonal Catholics.


    You then understand the basis of my puzzlement. ....


    Even if ID isn't "fundamentalist" enough, it is a step in the right direction.

    Offline Vandaler

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    « Reply #21 on: April 10, 2008, 07:20:47 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cletus
    At this point I'll have to crack open the books and review I.D. arguments. I don't think that it's all as simple as you make it.


    Sure, I would expect no less for anyone who would applaud it to at the very least cover the basics of it's tenant.  You will find concepts such has irreducible complexity which implies that some organism or organs functions are so complex, or so perfectly designed for their function that they could not have evolved since any altercation  to it's present state (The supposed previous step in evolution) would make the organism or organ inoperable and thus, would not have survived the process of natural selection.

    I.D. goes on in providing examples from Nature and defend the argument above through those examples.

    The problem of I.D. as a science is that it only uses the science language to make it's case, but it does not meet the criteria's for  it to be science.

    Intelligent Design is not a science because it cannot be tested by experiment, does not generate any predictions, and propose no new hypotheses of it's own. *

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Upcoming "creationist" movie!
    « Reply #22 on: April 10, 2008, 11:50:08 AM »
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  • Quote from: Vandaler
    The problem of I.D. as a science is that it only uses the science language to make it's case, but it does not meet the criteria's for  it to be science.


    Please do not tell me you think evolution is science...

    Quote
    Intelligent Design is not a science because it cannot be tested by experiment...


    ...neither can evolution.  It is "pie in the sky" that is totally at variance with reason (as well as ALL observed phenomena).
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #23 on: April 10, 2008, 11:59:11 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cletus
    Believers can and do err by confusing what is known by faith with what is known by reason and introducing the disciplines of theology into the discipline of science.


    Cletus, my old (and dear) friend, good to see you "up and at it" again.  As for these words, I just wanted to point out something you already know - theology IS a science.

    For those following this thread, it might be good to interject here that Cletus is speaking of the disciplines of the science of theology versus the disciplines of what are called the physical sciences.

    God speed.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Vandaler

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    « Reply #24 on: April 10, 2008, 12:24:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: Me
    Intelligent Design is not a science because it cannot be tested by experiment...


    Quote from: Gladius
    ...neither can evolution.  It is "pie in the sky" that is totally at variance with reason (as well as ALL observed phenomena).


    That is false.  The implications of evolution can, and are tested for specific sets of expectations that should logically be observed in fields such has modern genetics and molecular biology.  Fields that did not even exist when the theory of evolution was first written.

    Offline Vandaler

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    « Reply #25 on: April 10, 2008, 12:35:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    Cletus, my old (and dear) friend, good to see you "up and at it" again.


    Ditto,

    Cletus is great.


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #26 on: April 10, 2008, 12:37:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: Vandaler
    ...The implications of evolution can, and are tested for specific sets of expectations that should logically be observed...


    This idea is taking as proven the very thing under question (which is clever, as it is totally unprovable), looking at certain aspects after the assumed fact (distorted under the lens thereof), and postulating all kinds of unobserved and unobservable "facts" from the little that has been observed.

    Evolution is not scientific, my friend.  It has proven to be an embarrassment to real science and real scientists.

    As for the application in very new fields, I shall refrain from accepting such "truths" until time has shown the field to be actual science, and the men to be actual scientists.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Vandaler

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    « Reply #27 on: April 10, 2008, 12:59:26 PM »
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  • Gladius,

    I understand that there is a filter that will prevent us to discuss.  It's fine, I understand the subject to be I.D. and it's merit to be in science class.  

    The merits of evolution was a side track.

    Offline Cletus

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    « Reply #28 on: April 10, 2008, 02:46:20 PM »
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  • Thanks, gentlemen, for the above kind words.

    Yes, theology is the queen of sciences. I usually write "Modern Science" without distinction as a way to satirize what most modern people consider science to be. I think I got that trick from Chesterton. I probably overdo all that quirky capitalizing business and this time forgetting to be idiosyncratic in that way led me into a drawing a false distinction.

    I would never have jumped into a thread about Intelligent Design versus Evolution per se. This started out as a thread about a movie that apparently is a defense of I.D. Then something ambiguous about "Trads" and what one might expect their reactions and sympathies and enthusiasms to be in this area appeared.

    At first I thought that what was meant might be along the lines of: "It is puzzling that Traditional Catholics should be so happy and excited about a pro-I.D. movie, since that sort of thing is associated with Protestant Fundamentalists, and Catholics in the 1950s who were far from being Modernists nonetheless lived quite comfortably with Evolution Theory, unlike those Protestant Fundamentalists."

    That's why I went through my litany of standard 1950s American Catholic theological abominations. To challenge the notion, if that was in fact the notion someone had, that the many ways in which some worldly-wise Catholics sold the farm to the infidels well before Vatican II constituted a "tradition" the bucking of which by "Trads" might well be considered "puzzling."

    Now it seems that something more subtle than that was intended. Something along the lines of: "It's puzzling that Traditional Catholics should be interested in Intelligent Design theory at all, since they're such hopeless Fundamentalists that one would not expect them to know anything about the study of origins but their own literal reading of Genesis."

    In the past I have made fun of "thread beadles" whose ideas about keeping to the original thrust of a thread on a message board are arbitrary and sometimes self-serving. I would not, for example, be so quick to say here that "the merits of evolution was a side track." It's not as though someone started comparing and contrasting THE HONEYMOONERS with THE FLINTSTONES. Certainly, discussing the merits of Evolution with or without that mysterious "filter" is within the bounds of the topic of this thread. If that gets too complex for all but two people, so be it. Survival of the fittest and all...

    But for me THE topic of this thread is now the "Trad" mind and its supposed limitations and the "Trad" relationship to Modern Science and Modern Academe. There was no question of a lofty and sophisticated "discussion" about molecular structures and that sort of thing when that comment about Trads, which turned out to be a subtle put-down, was passed.

    The real meat and potatoes of Evolutionary Science as taught in the Modern Classroom are demented dogmas such as these:

    Marital fidelity is an unnatural vice.

    Constant warfare is part of Man's Evolutionary heritage.

    The only hope for humankind is that certain male monkeys display themselves in attitudes of receptivity to ravishment when threatened and maybe in a billion or two years humans will learn to do the same, thus leading to Peace on Earth.

    Evolutionists have a bad habit of waxing all pious and righteous and indignant about the sanctity of their supposedly unbiased petrie dishes and specific sets of expectations when in fact they are about as cautious as the demon-ridden swine of Gerasa in how they go about arriving at their theories and their certitude about their theories.  

    I suppose that given billions and billions of years I could get an Evolutionist apologist to admit that pictures in Fundamentalist tracts of Sumerians riding domesticated dinosaurs are really no more ridiculous than the above standard Evolutionist dicta.

    It's easy to grumble when called on one's patronizing or dismissive attitude towards supposed Fundamentalists that yes, those who espouse Evolutionist Science and teach it in the classroom are not above having weird and unscientific flights of fancy of their own.

    It's not so easy when one has been brainwashed otherwise by the World Spirit to take an honest and appalled look at the extent to which Evolution AS ACTUALLY TAUGHT IN THE CLASSROOM is a matter of demented dogma, and not of science of any kind.

     




    Offline Vandaler

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    « Reply #29 on: April 10, 2008, 03:41:39 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cletus
    Now it seems that something more subtle than that was intended. Something along the lines of: "It's puzzling that Traditional Catholics should be interested in Intelligent Design theory at all, since they're such hopeless Fundamentalists that one would not expect them to know anything about the study of origins but their own literal reading of Genesis."


    I think it would be a fair appraisal that scientific literacy is poor in my experience in these circles.  It's difficult to evaluate if it's poorer then..., your average bowling team.  Either way, I see science dismissed and "bracketed" enough as a dirty word to have drawn some of the above attitude to a certain extent.

    Quote
    In the past I have made fun of "thread beadles" whose ideas about keeping to the original thrust of a thread on a message board are arbitrary and sometimes self-serving. I would not, for example, be so quick to say here that "the merits of evolution was a side track." It's not as though someone started comparing and contrasting THE HONEYMOONERS with THE FLINTSTONES. Certainly, discussing the merits of Evolution with or without that mysterious "filter" is within the bounds of the topic of this thread. If that gets too complex for all but two people, so be it. Survival of the fittest and all...


    The above behavior is not so much in relation to my desire to keep the thread on topic, but rather to be less antagonistic then I have been in the past.  I can defend my point on evolution with relative ease but I have chosen not to.  Should there be an appetite for the discussion, I am not opposed to it.

    Quote
    But for me THE topic of this thread is now the "Trad" mind and its supposed limitations and the "Trad" relationship to Modern Science and Modern Academe. There was no question of a lofty and sophisticated "discussion" about molecular structures and that sort of thing when that comment about Trads, which turned out to be a subtle put-down, was passed.


    How do you propose to operate then.  Not to single out, but would you consider Gladius response to be rather typical  or "Trad" relationship to Modern Science and Modern Academe.