Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Tiffany on December 09, 2013, 05:51:46 AM
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If you cannot find a way to earn a living in a rich country of 300,000,000 people with 50 different states you can work in where they all speak your language, then frankly you are a waste of space.
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Agreed!
I say this, knowing of course that you are trying to go somewhere special with this thread by taking his statement out of context.
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This waste of space was going to respond with bitterness, but then it remembered:
Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam in thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
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Failed drug tests hindering Ohio drilling hiring
By Bob Downing Published: June 11, 2012
The Youngstown Vindicator reported on Sunday that the lack of a drug-free work force is creating problems as drilling companies begin hiring.
Nine of 10 unskilled workers in Columbiana County cannot pass the urine test, the paper said.
For higher-skilled positions, two of three applicants will likely fail the drug screening, experts told the newspaper.
In some cases, welders and pipe fitters have been brought to Ohio from other areas because the industry cannot find enough skilled or drug-free workers, the paper said.
Marijuana and pain killers are the most common drugs reported.
Such tests cost companies about $40 per test.
http://www.ohio.com/blogs/drilling/ohio-utica-shale-1.291290/failed-drug...
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Whoops! Sorry I thumbed you down, Tiffany. For some reason, I thought it was you saying that. I didn't realize you were quoting someone else. Not awake yet, apparently.
Just consider it a thumbs down for the comment and not for you from someone who has been unemployed for several months but is thankfully starting a new job next month (thank you St. Joseph!). I just wish it didn't count against your statistics, though.
Anyone looking for work may want to try the following novena, it worked for me! Granted, it didn't work right away. I kept saying it over and over, and didn't get any results. Finally, I got the opportunity to go to Confession and Mass, then the following morning I said it, and less than 10 minutes later, I got a call offering me a job (at 8:10 in the morning, no less. I mean, who calls that early for such a thing? Obvious sign of Divine intervention, if you ask me). I guess it makes sense that God wouldn't want to reward someone who was almost certainly in mortal sin, but obviously he did care about my plight and was gracious to me after I'd squared things up with him. Anyway, here's the novena:
Prayer to St. Joseph
Oh, St. Joseph,
whose protection is so great, so prompt, so strong,
before the throne of God,
I place in you all my interests and desires.
Oh, St. Joseph,
do assist me by your powerful intercession,
and obtain for me from your Divine Son
all spiritual blessings, through Jesus Christ, our Lord.
So that, having engaged here below your heavenly power,
I may offer my thanksgiving and homage to the most Loving of Fathers.
Oh, St. Joseph,
I never weary contemplating you and Jesus asleep in your arms;
I dare not approach while He reposes near your heart.
Press Him in my name and kiss His fine Head for me and
Ask Him to return the Kiss when I draw my dying breath.
St. Joseph, Patron of departed souls - pray for me.
Amen.
This prayer was found in the fiftieth year of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. In 1505 it was sent from the Pope to Emporer Charles, when he was going into battle. Whoever shall read this prayer or hear it, or keep it about themselves, shall never die a sudden death or be drowned, nor shall poison take effect on them; neither shall they fall into the hands of the enemy, or shall be burned in any fire or shall be overpowered in any battle.
Say for nine mornings in a row for anything you may desire. It has never been known to fail.
A friend of mine also told me to say it every morning before 11am, or else I'd have to start over. Not sure if that makes a difference or not, but it might be worth keeping in mind.
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Actually, from what I can gather ggreg seems like a decent man. I think that if we were living in a time where the Church was strong and Bishops took the Faith and their pastoral responsibilities more seriously, ggreg wouldn't have fallen into the errors that he has. Glancing through past posts on the forum, I would identify ggreg as being somebody with enough of what St. Thomas calls the "Natural Virtues", but with comparatively little of those "Supernatural Virtues" that are uniquely Christian. This is natural, because I gather that ggreg is a "self-made" businessman, and such men, while organized and hardworking, are prone to the sins of pride and worldliness. He's a typical Bourgeois. Seeing as I've been indirectly called a "waste of space", ggreg, I hope that you don't mind that I call you directly a typical Bourgeois, being a far better man than I. I'm sure it's easy for you to look down on the poor seated up high on the throne of modern luxuries, but none of the original Christians nor did any of the Saints share that same indignation.
And Jesus saith to him: The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air nests: but the son of man hath not where to lay his head.
Was Jesus of Nazareth a waste of space, ggreg? I feel like a hypocrite admonishing you, because after all I am a waste of space, I don't deny it. My sloth is disgraceful. If you accuse me of pride and sloth, and I accuse you of pride and worldliness, will either of us profit? Won't it be the blind leading the blind into the pit? Ggreg, does your success in the man-made world of business give you the right to condemn men living on the created earth, God's footstool? I read a post where you spoke snidely of a young working class girl that you once took to a restaurant. Yes, I'm sure God will punish her for being so ignorant as to order "chicken and chips" at a fine French restaurant, but do you not fear how God will judge you for the spite in your heart?
Ggreg, you have privileges that the poor don't have, which is why God's judgement of you will be more harsh. I am a waste of space because I don't seek employment with any where near the diligence that I should, but you too are a waste of space for not seeking the grace of God with any where near the diligence that you should. We are both wastes of space, both dust and ashes. So is it Christian for us to be accusing one and other?
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners: and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
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So what stops you from getting a job? You are clearly articulate, have a good command of English. Why not simply plan, research, and act. Persevere until you are successful?
Work intelligently at the first job and develop a plan as to where you will go from there.
You have a TON of material on YouTube and the rest of the Internet showing you how to do everything from repairing washing machines to making Christmas decorations to sell on eBay. The overwhelming majority of this information is in English. You are in a market of 300,000,000 people looking for stuff on ebay and other commerce sites. Americans are consumerist loonies who will buy any old crud. Back in the 1970s they bought pet rocks. They buy certificates saying they own a piece of the moon.
Have you even experimented with eBay? Why not buy a scrap washing machine strip it down for parts and sell the parts online. You can get the washing machine for free from someone who wants it hauled away. If someone needs a pump, or a motor on a control panel they are going to pay you at least 30 dollars plus postage just for the convenience of being able to get one. A new pump is probably 120 dollars.
What have you got to lose by trying. The input costs are close to zero. If you sell just one part you cover your gas picking it up. You also learn how to strip down a washing machine, which means over time you could repair one and resell that as a working unit.
Want to make even more money, then buy a scrap motorcycle. You don't even need to interact with your customers. Just send them the right parts, quickly and don't jerk them around. Motorcycle parts are very expensive second hand and the profit margin by stripping them down is high.
There are a million better ideas, but this is just one very simple one. The guy from Costa Rica or China or Mexico or the UK cannot ship to your 300,000,000 countrymen as easily as you can.
What is for sure is that my spiritual state has nothing to do with your unemployed state. I could be a saint or the biggest worldling going but my advice on this matter would still be correct.
If Traditional Catholicism has anything to recommend it, why can't you turn its virtues of discipline, self sacrifice, clear and critical thinking, humility etc. into a practical plan to get you off your arse and providing some value adding service to a person or business that is prepared to pay you for it?
I recommended an Indian guy for a sales job recently. He was a nice enough intelligent guy, in his mid 20s, but he had a terribly strong Indian accent. It was his first sales job, no proven sales experience. I did warn the company that his Indian accent would be a problem for him selling on the telephone. The job pays $65k per year. They liked him because he knew something about business telephone services, but frankly nothing you couldn't learn with a couple of weeks study and watching youtube videos.
Why isn't a native English speaker with a neutral accent getting that job, if there are so many hard working, willing and able white English speakers out there? Some recent import from India is beating white natives in the job market. Ok, $65k before tax, isn't much but it is not too bad for 26 years old. It is a good steeping stone to bigger things.
I work in the business world and I am regularly asked by clients to interview people from junior to senior so they can get an objective third party opinion. I can assure you that long term unemployment in your early 20s are the kiss of death. They mark you as unemployable and you need to think smart and have a very cunning plan to negate them.
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I see you are in Yorkshire, England McFiggly.
People in England who complain of being "Poor" make me laugh. You should travel the world a little and see some real poverty. Nobody is poor in England, not in an absolute sense. Between tax credits, welfare, no council tax or local taxes, free dental, free medical prescriptions, heavily subsidized education and getting your rent paid by the government, you really have little to complain about.
And Yorkshiremen complaining about strong opinions. Well that is just laughable.
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A report published in the Independent recently suggested that too many unemployed graduates are guilty of “job snobbery” by turning down work they consider menial. So then, are we really seeing a build-up of graduates all clinging on to their degrees in Marketing and Media Studies waiting for that dream job whilst turning down those jobs serving coffee? With the latest figures showing another 15,000 people aged 16 to 24 becoming unemployed in June, is the truth that a huge cross section of graduates believe some jobs are below them?
According to an advisor in the Portsmouth Job Centre, who wished to remain anonymous, it isn’t a rare situation. “We get a lot of young people in here who genuinely want to work but have a mental list of jobs that they just won’t do.” He adds, “A high number are recent graduates who come to us with the genuine belief that they will walk away with a few interviews for 25k+ a year (40,000USD) roles. Unfortunately on too many occasions, we are having to dampen their expectations.”
Expectation. A word which crops up in almost every conversation I have on this subject. From the job centre, to undergraduates, to lecturers, to the unemployed. It is the one thing, despite the UK’s obvious socio-economic problems over the past few years, that crops up more than any other. As society’s class distinctions have been eroded, our ability to dream of landing that well-paid job has flourished. For the increasing number of graduates, the expectation is that they will at least secure a job mildly relevant to the degree they invested so much time in. The reality for so many is, for a few years at least, working jobs that you never thought you’d be doing.
We are in danger of creating a job market that makes no sense, where graduates are unprepared for the patience required to gain the career they want. A fact that Tim, an accountant living in Nottingham, thinks people are missing, “[Graduates] should have realistic expectations regarding jobs and if they can’t get a job they want then they should take whatever is on offer whilst they work towards/train to get the job they want.”
In an increasingly competitive graduate job market the situation is tougher than it has ever been. With reports suggesting 50% more graduates are more likely to end up in non-graduate jobs when they leave university than students a decade ago, it’s hardly surprising that some graduates seem to actively choose the dole rather than a ‘menial’ job.
Even when talking to current students the feelings are pretty similar. According to one student, Kay, who is studying at the University of Portsmouth, it is more a question of prospects than it is about reward. “I just want to know that the hard work I’ve put in will at least land me something which I can work towards, not just some dead end job. I’d rather live with my mum and claim jobseeker’s than work in McDonald’s.”
For Ollie, a 24-year-old economics graduate, the truth is hard to digest. “I graduated 18 months ago but have yet to find anything that’s suitable. All in all I’ve applied for around 150 jobs during that time and have had around seven serious interviews but progress is slow.” When asked about taking a different job Ollie’s outlook was fairly negative. “It’s not that I feel I’m better than working in a coffee shop but at the minute I’d rather stay on jobseeker’s and bide my time and wait for the right opportunity.” Whatever the reason, the reality is, more often than not, hard to swallow. The fact that graduates now see the dole as an increasingly accepted part of post-education is worrying. For most of the population the idea of living on the dole, even for just a short amount of time, is about as desirable as waking up next to a rotting corpse, but it is becoming increasingly common. Some reports suggest that as many as 13% of male graduates have spent more than six months on jobseeker’s allowance, a staggering statistic for something that still carries the stigma of embarrassment for many.
Back in July I wrote an article about the graduate problem. In a way the issue is that some graduates think a degree is an entitlement to a higher wage rather than seeing it as a tool to help them work towards a higher wage. A degree should be about taking that qualification and using it as a platform to become a better person, almost the foundations for what you achieve once you leave.
At least for most, the thought of unemployment still carries the shudder of worry it probably should. As a college tutor myself, I always feel the need to ask my students about their opinions on everything from international terrorism to that noise called dubstep. So when I asked one of them whether he would rather work than be on the dole his response was pretty unambiguous: “Being on the dole would make me depressed but then so would working at McDonald’s, but I’d rather be depressed and have money than depressed and living at my mums.” Good lad Johnny, good lad.
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So what stops you from getting a job? You are clearly articulate, have a good command of English. Why not simply plan, research, and act. Persevere until you are successful?
Nothing apart from my own wretched sloth.
What is for sure is that my spiritual state has nothing to do with your unemployed state. I could be a saint or the biggest worldling going but my advice on this matter would still be correct.
Agreed. I do feel a hypocrite for responding the way I did; it was mostly out of bitterness and resentment. I apologize.
If Traditional Catholicism has anything to recommend it, why can't you turn its virtues of discipline, self sacrifice, clear and critical thinking, humility etc. into a practical plan to get you off your arse and providing some value adding service to a person or business that is prepared to pay you for it?
First of all, I'm such a novice that I'd blush to call myself a "Traditional Catholic" except in the technical sense that I assent to its doctrine. My way of life doesn't deserve such a title, and it's obvious that you are closer to embodying that life than I am. I'm infected with sloth and a proud loathing for the world of business and employment because I falsely associate it mentally with materialism and greed, but that doesn't at all excuse me for my laziness. I coasted through school because the tests were easy, and it's made me proud and complacent. I had a tumour on my brain a few years ago and it, along with the awful depression I had at the time, made me worn out and tired. I had the tumour removed but I had not recovered physically from it, nor by then had my depression subsided, and so I dropped out of University in the first year because I couldn't keep up. It's left me with a defeatist and detached attitude that I really need to get rid of. It's a huge problem. Your advice is sound but it is lost on me because I hardly have the motivation to carry out such tasks. I need a spiritual revival which is partly why I'm attracted to the Church (the main reason I'm attracted to it is because it's True). My parents are unable to provide any real motivation because they have nothing in the way of belief or religion, and their parenting mostly comes down to loving me the best that they can and hoping I'll find my own way (typical "Boomers" in that sense). I love and honour my parents, but what I really need right now is a firm rebuke, somebody to tell me that I'm going down the wrong road while also guiding me down the right one.
I don't mean to overwhelm you with my personal history. I'm not asking for you to step in as a father or mentor figure at all; I'm not delusional enough to expect that from some distant acquaintance on an internet forum. My main reason for being here is just for discussion and leisure, which is quite bad actually because I have far, far too much of the latter already. The good thing is that I have a decent grasp of my errors, what I lack is the fortitude to correct them.
Thank you for your well-intentioned advice. I didn't deserve such a response from the way I accused you. Let me also clear up a misconception that you have: I'm English (born and raised), not American. I made my response not because you called Americans that are unemployed wastes of space, but just because you used that term to describe anyone that is unemployed. It's my shattered self-esteem that speaks out when I hear such terms being used. Again, I apologize for my nasty response and hope that, being the better man, you'll forgive me.
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A report published in the Independent recently suggested that too many unemployed graduates are guilty of “job snobbery” by turning down work they consider menial. So then, are we really seeing a build-up of graduates all clinging on to their degrees in Marketing and Media Studies waiting for that dream job whilst turning down those jobs serving coffee? With the latest figures showing another 15,000 people aged 16 to 24 becoming unemployed in June, is the truth that a huge cross section of graduates believe some jobs are below them?
According to an advisor in the Portsmouth Job Centre, who wished to remain anonymous, it isn’t a rare situation. “We get a lot of young people in here who genuinely want to work but have a mental list of jobs that they just won’t do.” He adds, “A high number are recent graduates who come to us with the genuine belief that they will walk away with a few interviews for 25k+ a year (40,000USD) roles. Unfortunately on too many occasions, we are having to dampen their expectations.”
Expectation. A word which crops up in almost every conversation I have on this subject. From the job centre, to undergraduates, to lecturers, to the unemployed. It is the one thing, despite the UK’s obvious socio-economic problems over the past few years, that crops up more than any other. As society’s class distinctions have been eroded, our ability to dream of landing that well-paid job has flourished. For the increasing number of graduates, the expectation is that they will at least secure a job mildly relevant to the degree they invested so much time in. The reality for so many is, for a few years at least, working jobs that you never thought you’d be doing.
We are in danger of creating a job market that makes no sense, where graduates are unprepared for the patience required to gain the career they want. A fact that Tim, an accountant living in Nottingham, thinks people are missing, “[Graduates] should have realistic expectations regarding jobs and if they can’t get a job they want then they should take whatever is on offer whilst they work towards/train to get the job they want.”
In an increasingly competitive graduate job market the situation is tougher than it has ever been. With reports suggesting 50% more graduates are more likely to end up in non-graduate jobs when they leave university than students a decade ago, it’s hardly surprising that some graduates seem to actively choose the dole rather than a ‘menial’ job.
Even when talking to current students the feelings are pretty similar. According to one student, Kay, who is studying at the University of Portsmouth, it is more a question of prospects than it is about reward. “I just want to know that the hard work I’ve put in will at least land me something which I can work towards, not just some dead end job. I’d rather live with my mum and claim jobseeker’s than work in McDonald’s.”
For Ollie, a 24-year-old economics graduate, the truth is hard to digest. “I graduated 18 months ago but have yet to find anything that’s suitable. All in all I’ve applied for around 150 jobs during that time and have had around seven serious interviews but progress is slow.” When asked about taking a different job Ollie’s outlook was fairly negative. “It’s not that I feel I’m better than working in a coffee shop but at the minute I’d rather stay on jobseeker’s and bide my time and wait for the right opportunity.” Whatever the reason, the reality is, more often than not, hard to swallow. The fact that graduates now see the dole as an increasingly accepted part of post-education is worrying. For most of the population the idea of living on the dole, even for just a short amount of time, is about as desirable as waking up next to a rotting corpse, but it is becoming increasingly common. Some reports suggest that as many as 13% of male graduates have spent more than six months on jobseeker’s allowance, a staggering statistic for something that still carries the stigma of embarrassment for many.
Back in July I wrote an article about the graduate problem. In a way the issue is that some graduates think a degree is an entitlement to a higher wage rather than seeing it as a tool to help them work towards a higher wage. A degree should be about taking that qualification and using it as a platform to become a better person, almost the foundations for what you achieve once you leave.
At least for most, the thought of unemployment still carries the shudder of worry it probably should. As a college tutor myself, I always feel the need to ask my students about their opinions on everything from international terrorism to that noise called dubstep. So when I asked one of them whether he would rather work than be on the dole his response was pretty unambiguous: “Being on the dole would make me depressed but then so would working at McDonald’s, but I’d rather be depressed and have money than depressed and living at my mums.” Good lad Johnny, good lad.
Yes, I suffer from the same laughable arrogance described here. Being puffed up by teachers at my old schools, I set a high goal for myself and now there's a repulsion that comes to working in lower-end jobs. At the minute I'm not even on the dole. I plan to make a resolve at New Year's to renew and quadruple every effort I had towards seeking employment. I really need to obliterate all of my self-loathing and apathy and find happiness and perseverance in living in a way satisfying to God.
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Seems to me like you are using Traditional Catholicism as a crutch. And believe me around here you will have no shortage of people who will make you feel it is good to avoid the "evils of the world" by avoiding the world altogether. Because guess what, apart from particularly fortunate people like me who get called by their clients, most working people are too darned busy to spend much time on these forums. Those that can spend much time are overwhelmingly underemployed.
In reality, there are lot of businesses that are not full of the greedy or ruthless. I know businessmen who take great pride and social responsibility in employing people and helping them pay mortgages and pay for families. I know others who do mentor people and give opportunities to young people. Some business people give the vast majority of their money away. I work for a guy worth 300 million who lives a pretty ordinary middle class life, you would never know he was worth what he was worth. He has given hundreds of millions away to good causes.
Most business people I know work their asses off. They work hard all week, travel and often do their accounts or taxes at the weekend. The feckless don't really do anything except sit around and moan about it.
If unemployed Trads spent 8 hours a day in front of the a Blessed Sacrament, then they would not be able to jump down my throat every-time I point out that third worlders are beating them for jobs. The fact that they can reply within an hour shows you how much time they are spending on the Internet. My living is on the Internet, which is my excuse. But really, what is theirs?
Most businesses are small businesses not huge corporations. You can find a job at a family owned business and contribute to ordinary people's livelihoods. Take that very clever brain of yours, study on the Internet and find out ways to save them money, reduce their tax bill, order their stock more effectively and a million other things that don't involve dishonesty or theft.
First off however you have to change your outlook on life.
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To say that I'm demoralized and disenchanted with life would be an understatement. I feel like I've been storing up bile and resentment in my heart from a young age. Half of me loved the beautiful promises of life, and the other half shuddered at its cruelties. Without religion I was unable to reconcile the two, and became double-minded. It does not help at all that the media loves to stress those cruelties of life, nor does it help that popular entertainment basks in sentimentalism and romantic idealism which can never be fulfilled in real life. Without religion, my main bearings on life came from those two sources, and they've left me feeling sick, dizzy, disoriented, directionless. Yet wallowing in self-pity is wretchedness itself, so it profits me nothing to blame things external to myself when I do nothing to cure the sicknesses within.
If my words are understood one ought to see why the Catholic Faith calls to me.
28 Come to me, all you that labour, and are burdened, and I will refresh you.
29 Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: and you shall find rest to your souls.
30 For my yoke is sweet and my burden light.
These things I have spoken to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you shall have distress: but have confidence, I have overcome the world.
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Seems to me like you are using Traditional Catholicism as a crutch. And believe me around here you will have no shortage of people who will make you feel it is good to avoid the "evils of the world" by avoiding the world altogether.
I understand how you would come to this conclusion, but it's not the precise truth. I'm not here to feel better about myself because I'm a "Traditional Catholic". Like I said before, I do not consider myself Traditional Catholic except by technicality. I do not consider myself better or more saintly than others because I presume to have the Catholic Faith (I lack the faith, I only acknowledge that I need it dearly). I'm not interested in "Traditional Catholicism", I'm interested in Catholicism, in Christianity, in Christ's Church and in Christ Himself. I come here because I think that "Traditional Catholicism", as its called, is the closest thing today, doctrinally, to the True Faith. I'm not using it as a crutch, at least not entirely. I need God.
First off however you have to change your outlook on life.
Couldn't agree more.
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Why taking out isolated sentences from other member's posts and starting a new thread about them?
It seems that you are no looking for a real discussion about unemployed men Tifanny, but only for harsh criticism on a sentence with no context, made by a member that apparently you are not very fond of. What is the purpose of your thread?
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. I'm not using it as a crutch, at least not entirely. I need God.
So practice mortification and earn your money from the sweat of your brow, even if it is just mental sweat, just like God instructs men to do in the first book of the bible.
Since you don't want to work and you know you should work, then you have a perfect opportunity to mortify yourself, please God, earn a crust and feel much better about yourself.
Sit down, work out a realistic plan and act on it. You are much cleverer than the average person so you should be able to crack it.
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So the materialistic civilization has gotten to you too ggreg?
My worth is defined by a secular authority? By secular society?
This is not a communist economy, everyone has to lobby private companies to get employment. It is a game of chance. There are those who are unlikely to be accepted by a company, because of criminal record or disability.
Would someone with a disability be a waste of space? I am supposed to have a disability, but I am in education, if I don't go to class my payment is deducted. Is there chance of a job for me? No. Further education? Yes. Job after that? Not a chance. I am a waste of space then, a good Catholic piece of trash who is living as a parasite upon atheistic progressive civilization. Why oh why did Catholics build this civilization to begin with if it would soon term us as refuse material. Well at least I got cigarettes, that makes it better somehow. I will go back to my fantasies of all the "wastes of space" banding together and throwing off the yoke of the "usefuls". Our numbers grow by the millions every day, one day, my day will come, and the usefuls wont be so useful in the end.
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What about unemployed people who do not work for medical reasons? Are they a waste of space too?
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If society is so evil then stop taking its money and go and live in a tent in the wilds like you keep promising too.
I am sure there are parts of Europe, Wales or Scotland you could attempt this and get away with it for a while. You would give up or freeze to death before they found you I suspect.
Disabled people get benefits. Unless they are profoundly disabled they can often work. What stops a disabled person selling on ebay for example? If they can pack items into envelopes and post them, then that is about as physical as it gets.
People with criminal records usually did crimes to get those records. Punishments in the Uk are pretty light weight. For minor crimes like tax evasion many employers don't care. In the used car business they would probably see a criminal record as a bonus.
Nothing stops a former criminal starting a business unless his crime was for fraud and he was specifically barred from being a company director.
Sorry, but I have been all over the world and seen how genuinely poor, poor people REALLY are and the reality is that life on welfare in Britain is a very cushy existence in comparison to that. Over a billion people live like that through a quirk of fate.
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What about unemployed people who do not work for medical reasons? Are they a waste of space too?
There are legitimate medical reasons that would disable a person to work. However, I notice a trend here in America that almost everything has become a medical reason to fill for disability and justify their plain SLOTH. A considerable amount of people in warfare in this country just abuse the system.
I agree with Greg that people in America (he was referring to England) but here applies as well, have no clue what real poverty is like and take everything for granted.
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What about unemployed people who do not work for medical reasons? Are they a waste of space too?
Depends on the reasons doesn't it.
There are lots of fakers and exaggerators with "bad backs". But people claiming sickness benefits are a lot smaller in number than healthy people who are long term unemployed.
I was pretty specific to say that Americans who spoke perfectly articulate and native English, and naturally British people likewise, are darned useless if they cannot compete with foreigners who arrive in Britain and America with broken English and yet manage to find work and gainful employment.
I know a Filipina and a Bulgarian woman who each started their own cleaning business and pull in a healthy amount of money cleaning people's houses and businesses. If they can do that with their disjointed English and no start-up capital or connections then why can't a native?
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A Traditional Catholic should never, EVER, engage in "job snobbery". Honest work is honest work.
Ggreg is a wise worldling. He really does focus on the world a little too much. However, having said that, his advice is very good advice and most people would benefit if they read his posts without reading too much into it. Ggreg isn't speaking about the status of someone's soul but he is highlighting a deficiency. Men must either be employed in some manner, or seeking employment, or preparing themselves for employment. The employment could be self-employed or a company man. The only criteria being that it be honest work and not something that would be a cause of temptation.
Men who are unemployed should really take a good hard look at themselves and make sure that they are doing the right thing. An examination of conscience is always in order. If someone is so-called unemployable, they need to honestly tackle their deficiencies to them become employable. It's not hard, but it does take work. And time too.
None of this is in effect for the ladies out there.
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Youre all nothing but a bunch of elitist classist snobs with no empathy for your fellow man and no right to claim the name Catholic.
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The movies of the Bowery Boys are a pretty good inspiration regarding this topic. Slip and Satch were almost always starting some kind of business and often from a backroom at Louie's Sweet Shop.
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:dancing-banana:O, yeah! Since I'm a lady, it's okay for me to go on disability and do nothing but take up space? I COULD do that if I wanted. It has been suggested to me more than once. But then the govt. tells me where I can live, and can't live, what food I can eat, that I can't own anything of value...On second thought, no thanks! I'll willingly put in 12-16 hour days for the privilege of being the boss of the 95 or so free hours per week. In Britain they PAY unemployed college graduates merely for seeking employment? Really?
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I don't understand how people can't get it.
You turn 15 or 16, and you work. That's all. Want something better? Train for it. Make more money. Direct yourself to something you like better than the first job.
That is life. No work? No income.
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Elitist classist menchevik snobs.
Go spend your life working for the upkeep of a godless society.
It suits you.
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:whistleblower:
Name-calling? It won't do any good. I'm a teacher in a nonpublic school. I work long hours because I have to in order to make ends meet. I don't make even a quarter of what the teachers across the street in the public school are making for six to seven hour days. I also work side jobs, anything from sewing to house and office cleaning. This is not to maintain the status quo of a Godless society, but because I consider it a calling, a vocation for one who, like St. Paul, finds herself born "out of time," exciting times as we are nearing the Triumph of Our Lady.
:dancing-banana:
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I don't understand how people can't get it.
You turn 15 or 16, and you work. That's all. Want something better? Train for it. Make more money. Direct yourself to something you like better than the first job.
That is life. No work? No income.
Agreed!
Why someone would down thumb this post, I wonder?
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If society is so evil then stop taking its money and go and live in a tent in the wilds like you keep promising too.
I can't wait for the colored peoples to take over the West, simply for the fact that they will demand for you to step down from your business ("whitey doesn't need to own anything!) and be forced to shut up and then you will be forced to join the working-class of your own race (and they will despise you as well and kick you to the curb).
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Actually, from what I can gather ggreg seems like a decent man.
You obviously have not been on this forum every long then.
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Since some folks want to down-thumb my posts about ggreg I would ask they actually have the courage to physically type down what they find good about this man.
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:farmer:
There is absolutely no shame in doing "menial" work. I've two graduate degrees in education and supplement my teacher's salary at a nonpublic school by house and office cleaning. I also do calligraphy and sewing for pay. A close friend of mine runs a cleaning business. She quit school at 16 to get married, thus never finished high school. She's been a widow for eight years and provides for five children. I'm one of her hired temps! She's more worthy of praise than I! Snobbery has no place among Catholics.
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If you cannot find a way to earn a living in a rich country of 300,000,000 people with 50 different states you can work in where they all speak your language, then frankly you are a waste of space.
This is not a defense of ggreg but in a welfare system like ours it does indeed try to reward people for not working while it punishes people who do work hard. If I may also be so bold, those who raise up in society are obviously full of more talent and ability than those on the bottom, social Darwinism if you will.
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Jesus doesn't think they're a waste of space, as long as these unemployed people still put God and His Holy Mother first in their lives.
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I'm waiting for Ggreg to give good advice seasoned with sugar instead of vinegar. :thinking: :pray: :smile:
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I thought this was a Catholic forum? Since when is this bougois "I have a job so I am better than you - and you are a waste of space" Catholic?
It is not.
The posts in support of this man just show that people are putting their jobs and material wealth in front of God and religion. What is wrong with people not working for a godless society. All you people are doing is keeping the cogwheels in motion and creaming off money to spend on creature comforts.
Catholics should have a more transcendental view of property and status.
Surely also this "waste of space" insult is an argument used by abortionists.
You are all on the wrong side. I have no vested interest in society so I see the truth, but you are blinded by your secular prestige.
ps: I am not "unemployed", but employed in study, but if I were unemployed I would say the same thing as now. What makes you think all of a sudden the unemployed are a waste of space? Whether or not they have a job is not up to them, it is a free market economy in a depression after all.
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I agree with soulguard, he may be "young and idealistic" but his point is essentially valid. The view that the unemployed are a "waste of space" is high-minded contempt that is surely not worthy of any Christian. I can see why a "Traditional Catholic" would associate being traditional with being contemptuous of the unemployed, but that is due to mistaking the tradition of the Catholic Church with the tradition of Bourgeois society that has been in place since about the time of the devil-inspired French Revolution. That contempt is not Catholic, it is fundamentally Protestant. Read Max Weber's The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism for elaboration on this point.
"When Catholicism degenerates, what form of corruption will show itself? The answer is easy: mock holiness. When Protestantism degenerates, what form of corruption will show itself? The answer is not difficult: shallow worldliness. But in Protestantism this will show itself with a refinement which cannot occur in Catholicism."
Shallow worldliness is what is upsetting soulguard here, and he has a right to be upset by it. I am upset by it as well.
What people ought to be saying to soulguard, instead of rudely dismissing him with downward thumbs, is that he has to come to terms with the callousness of the world, and with the extremely callous worldliness of modernity in particular. So, soulguard, this worldly attitude that is upsetting you has always upset Christians. It upset our Lord, which is why he said it would be easier for a camel to enter through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. It is why Saints have always preferred poverty to luxury. If you really despise worldliness soulguard, good, but you have your work set out for you if you want to battle against it and not just hypocritically moan about it while being worldly yourself. If you really don't want to be worldly then you have the life of a monk before you, and I don't think there's a single person on this forum with enough arrogance to disrespect that kind of life.
These things I have spoken to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you shall have distress: but have confidence, I have overcome the world.
Do not be distressed by the noise that the world makes, soulguard, because your Lord has overcome the world.
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The dangerous and eventual fatal terminus of this kind of thinking has shown itself in 20th century atrocities. It reeks of utilitarianism.
Some of us men are trying to find work and it is not easy.
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I recommended an Indian guy for a sales job recently. He was a nice enough intelligent guy, in his mid 20s, but he had a terribly strong Indian accent. It was his first sales job, no proven sales experience. I did warn the company that his Indian accent would be a problem for him selling on the telephone. The job pays $65k per year. They liked him because he knew something about business telephone services, but frankly nothing you couldn't learn with a couple of weeks study and watching youtube videos.
Why isn't a native English speaker with a neutral accent getting that job, if there are so many hard working, willing and able white English speakers out there? Some recent import from India is beating white natives in the job market. Ok, $65k before tax, isn't much but it is not too bad for 26 years old. It is a good steeping stone to bigger things.
I work in the business world and I am regularly asked by clients to interview people from junior to senior so they can get an objective third party opinion. I can assure you that long term unemployment in your early 20s are the kiss of death. They mark you as unemployable and you need to think smart and have a very cunning plan to negate them.
It's hard (impossible?) to argue with this.
This is a first-hand account from someone who clearly knows what he's talking about.
I'll pass over ("transeo") the subject of ggreg's spiritual life for the moment.
When it comes to jobs/careers/employment/etc. I think ggreg is a great source of anecdotes and advice. He's up to his elbows in this stuff, and he knows what he talks about. When he talks about it, he talks FIRST HAND, not related urban legends from other unemployed people, negative attitudes, etc.
He states facts, at least in this case.
How would you react -- what would you think -- if you experienced this? A young man with a couple weeks' worth of knowledge and a thick Indian accent gets a 65K sales job. What would that make you think?
I think ggreg must have a point. Fortune favors the bold, or something to that effect. You do have to put yourself out there, sell yourself, put in some effort, etc.
I could add other anecdotes to ggreg's. I know of plenty of cases of men (and women) with inferior intelligence that out-succeed much smarter men because of SHEER EFFORT EXPENDED. Sad but true.
And if you want to talk spirituality, let's talk about the parable of the Ten Talents.
You have men with IQs of 100 working hard and achieving X, while men with IQs of 140 under-achieve and produce nothing. Who is going to have the easier Personal Judgment?
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You have men with IQs of 100 working hard and achieving X, while men with IQs of 140 under-achieve and produce nothing. Who is going to have the easier Personal Judgment?
The point that soulguard has been eager to make, and that I support, is that God doesn't judge our bank accounts, he judges our character, our soul. Yes, sloth is a character defect, but ggreg didn't just condemn sloth, he condemned the unemployed. Now, many of the unemployed may well be infected with the sin of sloth. I've already put forward that I'm such an example. The point is that if a Christian wants to rebuke a person for their sloth then he should talk about sloth, it's causes and it's remedies, with charity towards the person and with the aim of moving that person towards grace. I don't see how anyone can fail to miss that this was far, far, far from ggreg's intention. He wanted, like a Pharisee, to whip and humiliate the sinners. Ggreg is very worldly wise - not say that he isn't spiritually wise - but when worldly wisdom leads to spiritual ignorance it has exceeded its bounds, and what soulguard and I have alluded to in our diatribes is a kind of spiritual ignorance, or even a sin, that is contained in ggreg's original comment and that has been repeated throughout this thread by others.
Now, I am young and vain. As is soulguard.
... childhood and youth are vanity.
Which is why I felt like a hypocrite in this thread - accusing my elders. However, I think that soulguard and I, in our youth and vanity, have a legitimate point that is going over your older and wiser heads because your age has cemented in your head a Bourgeois kind of bigotry against the "lazy", as if anybody that isn't enthusiastic about careers, promotions and corporate ladder-climbing is a condemned man. Soulguard and I grew up in more or less the same generation (I'm 21, I believe he is a few years younger), and so perhaps we have inherited a view inherent to our generation that was never a part of your own.
I do think that our generation is less enthusiastic, in general, about having a successful career, especially the men of our generation. Through lazy speculation, here are the explanations that I propose for this phenomenon:
- The economy is bad, it's very disheartening to a young person to be told that his entire career is built upon on the whims of greedy stockbrokers who could collapse the economy at any moment and render him jobless.
- Feminism has won and marriage is wrecked. Why even work hard to get a job? What are you working towards? A marriage, a family? But so many marriages are ending in divorce, family life has been cast as boring in the media while sɛҳuąƖ promiscuity has been glamorized, "alternate lifestyles" and things like gαy marriage have made marriage and the family seem like mere options, not vital necessities. We young men are told again and again that women are better at us, that they get better grades than us and that more of them attend colleges/universities than do men. So what's the point? It used to be that a man had a career so that he could support a woman. Now you get a career only to be emasculated by your female superiors at work and to be emasculated by your partner at home who constantly reminds you that she "doesn't need you", and that she could "get by on her own".
- We were raised by Boomers / hippies who believe that sentimental love can solve all problems. You may have been raised by parents that were set on you having successful careers, but I never had that pressure on me. Your parents may have deemed you rotten failures for being unemployed, our parents are "sympathetic". It could be argued that they are far too light on us, but I could argue that your parents were too strict on you and turned you into career snobs.
There's probably more, but you get the idea.
If anybody wants to point me to the writings of a Church authority on sloth I'd receive them with thankfulness. I think that would be far more pleasing to both me and soulguard than to be bashed for being wastes of space, even though I admit that I'm wickedly slothful to the point of being a waste of space.
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So you are going to just lay down and die?
Charles Morse: You know, I once read an interesting book which said that, most people lost in the wilds, they, they die of shame.
Stephen: What?
Charles Morse: Yeah, see, they die of shame. "What did I do wrong? How could I have gotten myself into this?" And so they sit there and they... die. Because they didn't do the one thing that would save their lives.
Robert Green: And what is that, Charles?
Charles Morse: Thinking
http://goo.gl/pgvGf
My advice is set yourself little goals and start rebuilding your self-respect a piece at a time. You've let the world beat you.
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Yes, ggreg, the world has done a number on me. However, don't forget that "the unemployed are wastes of space" is a worldly phrase par excellence. If the world has beaten me it has beaten me, I'm sorry to say, with words like that.
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My husband has offered to help young men and even fathers of family come to the US ( and the ones that already live here) to find a position in his line of work. When they found out there would be mandatory overtime and that sometimes it was difficult amd menial, they turned him down. I've seen it happen almost a dozen times now, no one has ever taken him up on the offer, despite the excellent benefits and opportunity for advancement, and job security. I was shocked! If I were a young man, I would have loved such an opportunity to get my foot in the door.
I see a lot of truth in what ggreg says in the realm of making a living, even if he is unnecessarily offensive, but maybe some people need to hear the truth about themselves. I don't know. I can't judge a whole group of people I don't know from the Internet. The young men that I have met since becoming an adult seem to be allergic to work.
Even my father, who works in the manufacturing industry, has had jobs fall through because of the economy. However, he has and still does manage to find something else in his line of work because he was willing. He took menial jobs when he was young, got experience, worked his way up, and made contacts in other companies that helped him stay employed even when his workplaces shut down.
To be fair, I've heard a lot of women say "Ew, I don't want to learn how to cook/teach/sew/be frugal!" towards their state in life as well. It's not just the men and it is sad.
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McFiggly, you need to take the words 'career', 'promotions', and 'corporate ladder-climbing' out of your vocabulary right now & replace them with 'WORK'. Then get to work looking for WORK, even if it's lowly & menial. Someone has to bus tables. Someone has to clean toilets. Someone has to feed & milk cows. Someone has to scrub the floors in schools, hospitals, restaurants, etc. Someone has to wash dishes. Someone has to pick strawberries. Why can't that be you?
Stop whining about your sloth. It's unbecoming of a man. That's for children.
"When I was a child, I spoke like a child, but when I became a man I spoke as a man."
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- We were raised by Boomers / hippies who believe that sentimental love can solve all problems. You may have been raised by parents that were set on you having successful careers, but I never had that pressure on me. Your parents may have deemed you rotten failures for being unemployed, our parents are "sympathetic". It could be argued that they are far too light on us, but I could argue that your parents were too strict on you and turned you into career snobs.
Good God, stop it. I just responded (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/It-seems-my-grandparents-issued-an-ultimatum) to an equally "despondent" Traditional Guy 20 who blamed "baby boomers" for his plight. Apparently there are three or four of you on here with the exact same plights, and unemployed, and who have VERY old parents. Pray tell: are you all related?
:stare:
Baby Boomers SHOULD BE your grandparents, since they "boomed" and grew up in the 1940s-1960s by definition, so that would put them at retirement age, and their children should be FAR OLDER than your supposed 20 years age. (Not only you, obviously: several 20 year olds who have slithered in recently). A 20 year old's parents should have grown up in Generation X or Y, and you should have an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT set of complaints. Google it; I'm not doing your identity research for you.
Anyway: I'm happy to report that I know several young trad men (14-24) who are gainfully employed. In fact, them all. Oh, they're not making a killing, and in fact aren't doing what they had hoped, or studied, or trained to be doing. (One is, but he's working very hard and is under contract to complete a Master's degree.) But they are ALL employed in SOME fashion.
Again, "Baby Boomers" are about to retire; they don't have 20 year old children.
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McFiggly, you need to take the words 'career', 'promotions', and 'corporate ladder-climbing' out of your vocabulary right now & replace them with 'WORK'. Then get to work looking for WORK, even if it's lowly & menial. Someone has to bus tables. Someone has to clean toilets. Someone has to feed & milk cows. Someone has to scrub the floors in schools, hospitals, restaurants, etc. Someone has to wash dishes. Someone has to pick strawberries. Why can't that be you?
Stop whining about your sloth. It's unbecoming of a man. That's for children.
"When I was a child, I spoke like a child, but when I became a man I spoke as a man."
You're absolutely right Thorn. I'm going to stay off the forum, at least for a while, until I have seen to higher priorities. I feel like a hypocrite being on here and criticising others in the first place.
StCeciliasGirl, pardon my ignorance. I will refrain from speaking like that in the future.
I do not think my statements need to be completely retracted, however. I do think that there is something at least slightly rotten and unchristian in the attitude of ggreg and others. But I am fully aware how childish and whiny my attitude is and how incomparably more blameworthy it is compared to ggreg's, which is why I have insisted on my feeling like a hypocrite. I ought to cringe at my insisting on my sloth, I know, it's almost like I'm bragging about my sin, which is disgraceful.
Well, I intend to return here in the future because I enjoy the conversation and there are important discussions to be had that this forum is suited to more than any other place on the internet. Please don't think that I'm running away because I've been embarrassed. No, this has been a "guilty pleasure" from the start, I knew before joining the forum a few days ago that I ought to be attending to more important things. I don't mind being put in my place, especially over the internet which saves me from having to hide my shame before others.
Goodbye for now, and I hope that you all enjoy Christmas, and I hope that by the time I return that I'll have more to offer to the forum.
Cheers,
:cheers:
- Jack
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StCeciliasGirl, pardon my ignorance. I will refrain from speaking like that in the future.
I do not think my statements need to be completely retracted, however. I do think that there is something at least slightly rotten and unchristian in the attitude of ggreg and others.
Jack: you're ignorant of how old your parents are? Within 10 years would suffice.
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Mc Figglys posts are a valuable contribution to this forum, and he should not need to stay away. Whatever he intends to do can be done in addition to posting on here.
Obviously from what he and I have said, it is clear that some people elevate their state in secular life to the same level as their faith. That is Wrong. I know it wreaks of the elitism of the professed religious class who think they are better than Catholics who are not like them. This elitism is everywhere.
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StCeciliasGirl said:
Baby Boomers SHOULD BE your grandparents, since they "boomed" and grew up in the 1940s-1960s by definition, so that would put them at retirement age, and their children should be FAR OLDER than your supposed 20 years age. (Not only you, obviously: several 20 year olds who have slithered in recently). A 20 year old's parents should have grown up in Generation X or Y, and you should have an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT set of complaints. Google it; I'm not doing your identity research for you.
To be fair to Catholic women still giving birth into their forties, they will be in their 60s when that child turns 20.
McFiggly could certainly be the youngest child born to a mother who had her eldest at 18 and her youngest while in her early to mid forties. A mother who started her family at an early age could still have her youngest while her grandchildren are coming into the world. A mother who conceived even one child, now age 21, in 1992 could have been 42 years of age and been born in 1950. That puts her square into the baby boomer generation.
Debating whether or not this is a likely scenario for baby boomer/ hippie type parents is another story. You never know though, although selfish and malformed in many ways, they could have a lasting marriage and have been open to life. We have the privilege of having McFiggly , a Catholic, here on earth through a certain grace of God, no matter what his parent's age is.
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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society"
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StCeciliasGirl said:
Baby Boomers SHOULD BE your grandparents, since they "boomed" and grew up in the 1940s-1960s by definition, so that would put them at retirement age, and their children should be FAR OLDER than your supposed 20 years age. (Not only you, obviously: several 20 year olds who have slithered in recently). A 20 year old's parents should have grown up in Generation X or Y, and you should have an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT set of complaints. Google it; I'm not doing your identity research for you.
To be fair to Catholic women still giving birth into their forties, they will be in their 60s when that child turns 20.
McFiggly could certainly be the youngest child born to a mother who had her eldest at 18 and her youngest while in her early to mid forties. A mother who started her family at an early age could still have her youngest while her grandchildren are coming into the world. A mother who conceived even one child, now age 21, in 1992 could have been 42 years of age and been born in 1950. That puts her square into the baby boomer generation.
Debating whether or not this is a likely scenario for baby boomer/ hippie type parents is another story. You never know though, although selfish and malformed in many ways, they could have a lasting marriage and have been open to life. We have the privilege of having McFiggly , a Catholic, here on earth through a certain grace of God, no matter what his parent's age is.
Just trying to make some sense of it. He accused his parents of coddling, called them Baby Boomers, you think of a woman now in her 60s. And like I said, I had just replied to a man who used the same terminology about his grandparents, condemning a whole generation as the reason for his trials, but I'm wondering, where's the respect for older people in all this? Especially here, where they're the parents? (Unless there's rape or something odious that happened).
McFiggly linked his upbringing to his and another poster's lots in life.
I'll pull out something Poche said on the other thread to the (third!) 20 year old gentleman: the 4th Commandment, the honor your father and mother Commandment, is the first one that comes with promises attached to it. Something like, "honor thy father and mother that it may be well with you and you can live long on the earth?"
These threads are so similar, and I'm not saying it's EASY to honor parents; I actually have old parents (who had me around late 30s/early 40s). But Poche was right: that commandment's one of the basics. Did we STOP teaching that somewhere down the line? Why are there so many young men ready to blame parents of ANY generation? (Many, it would seem, from the baby boomer generation). If they're in their 60s or 70s, maybe they should get an extra helping of respect. "That it may be well with you and you can live long on the earth."
Or not. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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The baby boom lasted from 1946-1964, so someone born in the last year to qualify as a babyboomer would be 48, and a few of those have had menopause-babies. My own mom was 45 when I was born.
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Just as important as finding work, and really, much more important, a young Catholic Man should find a Traditional Catholic wife. A job is a job is a job and unless you are particularly skilled, you will probably have a series of ordinary jobs throughout your life. However, a Traditional Catholic wife is a real gem and this is the most important thing a man should focus on.
Men do need to develop themselves and they must prepare themselves to be responsible for a wife and family.
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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society"
Good point, Ascent. It is also no measure of health to point out a few good traits of an unbalanced generation but it does show God's mercy. If we are fortunate enough to have a little bit of goodness left in us, He will use it to catch us and bring us back to Him. He is the Great Fisherman, is He not?
I was being appreciative of the fact that McFiggly is Catholic and he is in a better position than many of the people of this world who do not have means to receive grace to correct their faults. He can especially learn from his elders on this forum. He would also do well to learn from St. Francis of Assisi, as I learned from him. St. Francis' father was a merchant who wanted him to have "the good things in life" . St. Francis realized his own errors, owned up to them, got right with God and chose the best life. He did not blame his parents for his own worldliness.
And to StCecilia'sGirl- No matter how old McFiggly's parents are, you are right, they deserve respect because of the 4th Commandment. You have given a correction to this young man, which is an act of charity, and he, God willing, will change his behavior.
I was astonished when reading a prayer written by St. Alphonsus de Ligouri where he asked God forgiveness for the sins of his youth. At first I thought that it was a prayer he wrote for the likes of me but then I thought, maybe he was a sinner too. I am not saying St. Alphonsus was a great sinner in his youth, but we do know that the greatest sinners have at times become the greatest saints.
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StCeciliasGirl said:
Baby Boomers SHOULD BE your grandparents, since they "boomed" and grew up in the 1940s-1960s by definition, so that would put them at retirement age, and their children should be FAR OLDER than your supposed 20 years age. (Not only you, obviously: several 20 year olds who have slithered in recently). A 20 year old's parents should have grown up in Generation X or Y, and you should have an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT set of complaints. Google it; I'm not doing your identity research for you.
To be fair to Catholic women still giving birth into their forties, they will be in their 60s when that child turns 20.
McFiggly could certainly be the youngest child born to a mother who had her eldest at 18 and her youngest while in her early to mid forties. A mother who started her family at an early age could still have her youngest while her grandchildren are coming into the world. A mother who conceived even one child, now age 21, in 1992 could have been 42 years of age and been born in 1950. That puts her square into the baby boomer generation.
Debating whether or not this is a likely scenario for baby boomer/ hippie type parents is another story. You never know though, although selfish and malformed in many ways, they could have a lasting marriage and have been open to life. We have the privilege of having McFiggly , a Catholic, here on earth through a certain grace of God, no matter what his parent's age is.
Just trying to make some sense of it. He accused his parents of coddling, called them Baby Boomers, you think of a woman now in her 60s. And like I said, I had just replied to a man who used the same terminology about his grandparents, condemning a whole generation as the reason for his trials, but I'm wondering, where's the respect for older people in all this? Especially here, where they're the parents? (Unless there's rape or something odious that happened).
McFiggly linked his upbringing to his and another poster's lots in life.
I'll pull out something Poche said on the other thread to the (third!) 20 year old gentleman: the 4th Commandment, the honor your father and mother Commandment, is the first one that comes with promises attached to it. Something like, "honor thy father and mother that it may be well with you and you can live long on the earth?"
These threads are so similar, and I'm not saying it's EASY to honor parents; I actually have old parents (who had me around late 30s/early 40s). But Poche was right: that commandment's one of the basics. Did we STOP teaching that somewhere down the line? Why are there so many young men ready to blame parents of ANY generation? (Many, it would seem, from the baby boomer generation). If they're in their 60s or 70s, maybe they should get an extra helping of respect. "That it may be well with you and you can live long on the earth."
Or not. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
The young man was not dishonouring his parents, very far from it, rather simply relating the reality of how he was raised and pointing out that this has had an impact on his work ethic. It is no different, in form, from pointing out that someone raised in a worldly household will need more time and conscious effort to build up his spiritual life, than would someone raised in a good Catholic family. I would say precisely the same thing about my boomer parents, with the sole addition that, being a few years older than McFiggly, I have had more time to retrain my habits.
My mother once asked me how in my opinion she and my father could have been better parents. I said they should have been more strict. She agreed and said that was the basic conclusion they had reached themselves.
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I was being appreciative of the fact that McFiggly is Catholic and he is in a better position than many of the people of this world who do not have means to receive grace to correct their faults. He can especially learn from his elders on this forum. He would also do well to learn from St. Francis of Assisi, as I learned from him. St. Francis' father was a merchant who wanted him to have "the good things in life" . St. Francis realized his own errors, owned up to them, got right with God and chose the best life. He did not blame his parents for his own worldliness.
And to StCecilia'sGirl- No matter how old McFiggly's parents are, you are right, they deserve respect because of the 4th Commandment. You have given a correction to this young man, which is an act of charity, and he, God willing, will change his behavior.
I was astonished when reading a prayer written by St. Alphonsus de Ligouri where he asked God forgiveness for the sins of his youth. At first I thought that it was a prayer he wrote for the likes of me but then I thought, maybe he was a sinner too. I am not saying St. Alphonsus was a great sinner in his youth, but we do know that the greatest sinners have at times become the greatest saints.
Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly does Mc Figgly need to apologise for?
It seems that some people are taking it as a given that he has committed the sin of sloth because of his arguments ( very well made arguments) that it was wrong to see unemployment as a justification for humiliation.
What about the vanity that comes with employment in secular society?
He seems to be without any strong sense of vanity on this subject, and he sees the truth, which is why I say that he espouses a virtuous opinion, and should not apologise for anything. He is gone apparently because he has taken the words of those on this thread to heart and convinced himself that he was wasting his time. I must ask, where do we get posters as articulate as he has been, they are needed here to raise the standard of the forum and benefit the education of people like myself. I also notice that no one is criticising the OP for this thread, but perhaps people should, because pride is a sin, and pride in one's position in a godless world is an evil pride that cultivates vanity and disinterest in the holy. I can see that many posters here have lost the sense of appreciation of the holy, because when a traditional Catholic is not working, living on welfare, that does not mean that they stop doing whatever they are interested in. They will devote themselves to study or good works. The criteria of employment in secular society does not equal good works, unless you are a doctor or lifeguard or similar. Employment is just about money, it is not a good work in itself, and if some Catholic has lost a sense of purpose for being employed, then let him go, and live on welfare, until he does something with his time that will be a genuine work for the greater good. Secular employment will only destroy his soul. I speak from experience, college turns people into sponges. In any case, this was a malicious thread against the unemployed who are men, and I am content to let this thread die and be forgotten.
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McFiggly, you need to take the words 'career', 'promotions', and 'corporate ladder-climbing' out of your vocabulary right now & replace them with 'WORK'. Then get to work looking for WORK, even if it's lowly & menial. Someone has to bus tables. Someone has to clean toilets. Someone has to feed & milk cows. Someone has to scrub the floors in schools, hospitals, restaurants, etc. Someone has to wash dishes. Someone has to pick strawberries. Why can't that be you?
Someone also has to work stained glass, turn ceramics, design and build environmentally-friendly houses, restore furniture, and other jobs of an artisanal nature. For someone like McFiggly, who seems to me to have the makings of an original personality, this sort of solitary and creative work could be exactly what would motivate him to conquer his sloth.
To McFiggly, if you are still reading this thread: I believe it is possible to escape the corporate career world and the spiritually meaningless work it offers, finding work that not only pays the bills but provides fulfillment and interior growth in its own right. I believe this due to the network I've built of men and women who have done it. The catch is that to succeed in this path requires not less effort and sacrifice -- but in most cases, more. On the other hand, the love you feel for the work will render the burden light.
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I cannot see that there is black or white in this discussion. We all have to get past these deficient generations- and there are lots of them lately - and make the corrections, whatever they happen to be, within ourselves and then move on to help others find their way if that is our place.
World War II and Vatican II influenced the baby boomer parents' generation. Those men that went to war sacrificed their lives when some of them were what we call "boys" now. Then women filled their positions in the job force. Things righted themselves for a little while but women got a taste of "freedom". Around the time of Vatican II, from what I can see, the world went crazy. So even the boomers' parents were becoming confused.
Each generation was influenced by the events of its time and each developed their own shortcomings. I wonder how God sees all of it? Does He take into account the shortage of grace or our we completely culpable for all of our weaknesses? We have to make an account of our lives when we meet Our Maker and we will be judged for the gifts and grace He sent us and what we did with them.
We are given the gift of reason around seven years old. We know what is right by then. We may not have the right influences but we also may be given opportunities later to make up for it. Whatever our duty is in our state in life is what we should be doing to our best ability. If it is contemplation, then do that. If it is ironing, cooking and cleaning or wielding a hammer, spatula in a greasy spoon restaurant or typing on a computer, well do that. Sometimes, as it was for St. Bernadette, it is being sick. We should do it for the love of God.
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Graham, totally agree with you. Thanks for expanding his work viewpoint.
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I think this is why I don't come here very often anymore. There's an almost Calvinistic streak that has entered this forum, a view that worldly success is somehow an indicator of spiritual well-being, and that if you don't make over $60,000 a year, have a house, two cars, are married and have x number of kids, there's something defective in your spiritual life. I don't mean this to sound like a personal attack, but it's true what they say, a forum usually takes on the personality of its moderator(s). Unfortunately, Matthew seems to be of this mode of thinking, and that's why most of the rest of this forum has gone along with it.
What has happened to Christianity being the religion of the poor, the orphan, the widow? I'm not saying we should go all liberation theology or anything, but having a little more charity for those in dire circuмstances would be a good thing, I think. I'm glad I get to interact with poor people, people with disabilities, etc., on a regular basis. It keeps me honest, and makes me realize that not everyone has the advantages that I have (not to mention, it gives me ample reason to pray for those around me, which ultimately benefits me, too).
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Perhaps if ggreg is looking to do something good for his fellow man (and he's not just interested in making himself feel important), perhaps he could put on a workshop for job seekers and allow them to benefit from his knowledge and experience. I'm sure it would be well attended and greatly appreciated. Just be sure to check the 'you're all just a bunch of lazy sods' attitude at the door; no one will want to hear that.
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Question for ggreg:
Are those who are unemployed, who live a religious life, for example of a "hermit" - worthy of esteem, or are they waste of space?
Is there use in what they do?
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SG Of course, there's use & merit for the religious life!!!!! What kind of question is that for a Catholic forum poster?!! Do you believe that even Ggreg would believe that people in religious life don't work? There's is the hardest & highest work. Hopefully you're talking about a true hermit or some one in a true religious order.
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SG Of course, there's use & merit for the religious life!!!!! What kind of question is that for a Catholic forum poster?!! Do you believe that even Ggreg would believe that people in religious life don't work? There's is the hardest & highest work. Hopefully you're talking about a true hermit or some one in a true religious order.
I don't mean to cast doubts on ggreg, I like his posts, and I would not be able to do such a thing anyway. But my question was more or less about myself, even though I did not say so. I was wondering if he would think it was a worthy way to spend one's life, as a hermit, even if an order did not accept me. Or am I only "employed in religious life" if an order says so? So many saints would have been disqualified from orders going by today's criteria.
St John of God for example, he was in an insane asylum, but an order took him on. The church is not the same as it was back then. It used to be that monasteries were places of penance.
Summa Theologica mentions that if a man killed his wife that a monastery would be a fitting place to do penance. I am trying to swing this post so that whatever answer he says will stay on the topic of this thread. Some people might have a vocation, but it will not be recognised, so then if they do it anyway, outside an order, are they a waste of space who should be employed in the world?
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SG Of course, there's use & merit for the religious life!!!!! What kind of question is that for a Catholic forum poster?!! Do you believe that even Ggreg would believe that people in religious life don't work? There's is the hardest & highest work. Hopefully you're talking about a true hermit or some one in a true religious order.
I don't mean to cast doubts on ggreg, I like his posts, and I would not be able to do such a thing anyway. But my question was more or less about myself, even though I did not say so. I was wondering if he would think it was a worthy way to spend one's life, as a hermit, even if an order did not accept me. Or am I only "employed in religious life" if an order says so? So many saints would have been disqualified from orders going by today's criteria.
St John of God for example, he was in an insane asylum, but an order took him on. The church is not the same as it was back then. It used to be that monasteries were places of penance.
Summa Theologica mentions that if a man killed his wife that a monastery would be a fitting place to do penance. I am trying to swing this post so that whatever answer he says will stay on the topic of this thread. Some people might have a vocation, but it will not be recognised, so then if they do it anyway, outside an order, are they a waste of space who should be employed in the world?
No way are they a waste of space! http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02442a.htm
St. Benedict Joseph Labre
It might be harder today because we do not live amongst Catholics or Catholic Churches but you can find out if it can be done. Prayers for you Soulguard that you find your vocation.
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:dancing-banana:In a bygone era, I'd have become a nun in a teaching order. But God willed for me to be born in 1960. So I live out my vocation in the world on my own. I have no problem with the path I've taken as I believe it is what Our Lord would want. If the world or other Trads. don't approve? Oh, well! They'll get over it!
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Perhaps if ggreg is looking to do something good for his fellow man (and he's not just interested in making himself feel important), he could put on a workshop for job seekers and allow them to benefit from his knowledge and experience. …
News flash! ggreg has already gone you one better (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Job-in-Reading-UK) (click on the link). For his trouble he was obscenely insulted by everyone's favorite apprentice intellectual Trad catechumen, soulguard (to such an extent that Matthew excised a pair of soulguard's evil comments). Shortly after, Tiffany piled on. Her specialty—one you too seem to aspire to mastering—is drive-by sneering at her betters.
… Just be sure to check the "you're all just a bunch of lazy sods" attitude at the door; no one will want to hear that.
Here you are clearly correct in your reproof. Whatever ggreg's intent, his comments might be taken as suggesting that all of the able-bodied un- and underemployed are wankers, layabouts, or both. Since he's right about probably only 98.7% of the cases, he needs to get a severe reprimand for inexcusable exaggeration.
Bad, ggreg; bad! No jam on your crumpets today!
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News flash! ggreg has already gone you one better (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Job-in-Reading-UK) (click on the link). For his trouble he was obscenely insulted by everyone's favorite apprentice intellectual Trad catechumen, soulguard (to such an extent that Matthew excised a pair of soulguard's evil comments). Shortly after, Tiffany piled on. Her specialty—one you too seem to aspire to mastering—is drive-by sneering at her betters.
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I desire to mend my fences with ggreg. For the record I have nothing against him. I only asked him a question about whether he thinks his opinion applies also to religious, or people unemployed for religious reasons.
I would like to see him answer it. It would clear up a lot...
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Here you are clearly correct in your reproof. Whatever ggreg's intent, his comments might be taken as suggesting that all of the able-bodied un- and underemployed are wankers, layabouts, or both. Since he's right about probably only 98.7% of the cases, he needs to get a severe reprimand for inexcusable exaggeration.
Bad, ggreg; bad! No jam on your crumpets today!
Your view on work is purely liberal (or should I say libertarian since they are the same) in that you see human beings as simple means of production for society when human beings are people not meant to be exploited but on the contrary are to be supported by a higher wage which can lead to an increase of births within the nation.
Your views on markets are also purely liberal (or should I say libertarian) in that you see free markets and free trade as the pathway to peace, life of goodness, and happiness, and if only we can cut enough taxes, paradise on Earth!
This Economism is basically Marxism in reverse which sees man as an economic animal. How about instead of blaming the worker we should blame the businesses since the Fortune 500 owns the government these days and outsources work and jobs and insources work and jobs---for immigrants. All of this leads to more money in their pockets, as profit for them soars and a decrease of workers' wages which has not risen since the Nixon era.
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Your view on work is purely liberal (or should I say libertarian since they are the same) in that you see human beings as simple means of production for society when human beings are people not meant to be exploited but on the contrary are to be supported by a higher wage which can lead to an increase of births within the nation.
Your views on markets are also purely liberal (or should I say libertarian) in that you see free markets and free trade as the pathway to peace, life of goodness, and happiness, and if only we can cut enough taxes, paradise on Earth!
This Economism is basically Marxism in reverse which sees man as an economic animal. How about instead of blaming the worker we should blame the businesses since the Fortune 500 owns the government these days and outsources work and jobs and insources work and jobs---for immigrants. All of this leads to more money in their pockets, as profit for them soars and a decrease of workers' wages which has not risen since the Nixon era.
You left out the part about my preference for carnal relations with sheep. Is that just your famous delicacy and good taste manifesting themselves again?
Your virtually 2,400 posted comments, chock full of self-indulgent whining, rank ignorance, and illiterate invective, seem to be the sum and substance of what you have to show for your twenty-something years of existence. No wonder you loathe ggreg! Whatever failings he may have and however grievous they may be, here and elsewhere there is clear evidence that he has practiced the corporal works of mercy—and without bragging about it. Nothing of the sort can be said for you.
Only if your moral and intellectual universe should ever expand beyond the tips of your extended fingers will you see how shamefully you abuse whatever talents the Lord has entrusted you with.
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You left out the part about my preference for carnal relations with sheep. Is that just your famous delicacy and good taste manifesting themselves again?
What on earth are you blabbing about?
Your virtually 2,400 posted comments, chock full of self-indulgent whining, rank ignorance, and illiterate invective, seem to be the sum and substance of what you have to show for your twenty-something years of existence. No wonder you loathe ggreg! Whatever failings he may have and however grievous they may be, here and elsewhere there is clear evidence that he has practiced the corporal works of mercy—and without bragging about it. Nothing of the sort can be said for you.
You're joking I hope. ggreg hires foreign workers outside of Britain, puts down the working class bragging about how much money he has, brags about how global markets make him rich, etc. and he has corporal works of mercy?! What a bunch of crap, but then again libertarianism supports the business types like ggreg.
Only if your moral and intellectual universe should ever expand beyond the tips of your extended fingers will you see how shamefully you abuse whatever talents the Lord has entrusted you with.
Only when you get out of your liberal, capitalist and democratic dreamworld will you ever realise true sympathy for the working man and not come off as a man who knows the good life since he is on top and cannot know the common man.
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Just as important as finding work, and really, much more important, a young Catholic Man should find a Traditional Catholic wife. A job is a job is a job and unless you are particularly skilled, you will probably have a series of ordinary jobs throughout your life. However, a Traditional Catholic wife is a real gem and this is the most important thing a man should focus on.
Men do need to develop themselves and they must prepare themselves to be responsible for a wife and family.
Hmm it seems from what I've looked at many Traditional Catholic women are very feminist in their views i.e. liberal and Marxist. But everyone can just go ahead and call me another Tele on the forum. :wink:
I keep up hope that somewhere there's one girl out there who fully holds on to some semblance of traditional views and I don't have to go to Saudi Arabia (that would be distasteful to me anyway) to find her.
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Trad Guy, how about practicing on us & refrain from spouting off about Marxism, etc. for when you next talk to your grandparents? Practice makes perfect so concentrate on talking about what you're doing mentally, physically & spiritually to improve yourself. Better yet, take the focus off what you know or think you know about the world & talk about things your grandparents might like - music, food, movies, saints, travel, woodworking, gardening, - anything - to engage them in pleasant things this world has to offer. Try it for just a day. That's all - just a day.
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Trad Guy, how about practicing on us & refrain from spouting off about Marxism, etc. for when you next talk to your grandparents? Practice makes perfect so concentrate on talking about what you're doing mentally, physically & spiritually to improve yourself. Better yet, take the focus off what you know or think you know about the world & talk about things your grandparents might like - music, food, movies, saints, travel, woodworking, gardening, - anything - to engage them in pleasant things this world has to offer. Try it for just a day. That's all - just a day.
Ah but as Catholics we are supposed to be anti-Marxist and anti-liberal as well I might add. My grandparents watch vile Hollywood movies and listen to disgusting music so I wouldn't want to discuss that. :wink:
My grandparents also are not Catholic so they would have no interest in the Saints. The only thing I can really get them to agree with me on is being anti-Obama. :smirk:
And I exercise every day to improve myself physically, I read books (right-wing of course) to help myself mentally, and I read the Bible, go to Saturday Confession, and Sunday Mass to improve spirutually.
Anyway I think you posted this in the wrong thread.
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Just as important as finding work, and really, much more important, a young Catholic Man should find a Traditional Catholic wife. A job is a job is a job and unless you are particularly skilled, you will probably have a series of ordinary jobs throughout your life. However, a Traditional Catholic wife is a real gem and this is the most important thing a man should focus on.
Men do need to develop themselves and they must prepare themselves to be responsible for a wife and family.
Hmm it seems from what I've looked at many Traditional Catholic women are very feminist in their views i.e. liberal and Marxist. But everyone can just go ahead and call me another Tele on the forum. :wink:
I keep up hope that somewhere there's one girl out there who fully holds on to some semblance of traditional views and I don't have to go to Saudi Arabia (that would be distasteful to me anyway) to find her.
You do have to be careful not to get entangled with the wrong woman.
Tele had really bad luck when it came to women... :wink:
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You do have to be careful not to get entangled with the wrong woman.
Tele had really bad luck when it came to women... :wink:
Well I'm talking to one right now. I hope we get to meet face-to-face soon but I like what I see and hear from her so far.
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I completely agree with you, Trad Guy, that as Catholics we therefore must be anti-Marxist, but that doesn't mean that's about all we talk about. It's good that they're anti-Obama at least, so there's a starting point. Anything else you can agree on? How about talk of care of the car for your grandfather, flowers or something that your grandmother likes? There must be something pleasant that binds you. Start thinking. Just for a day.
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Trad Guy, when you finally meet a woman that you like, will you be the man for her? In other words- will she be attracted to you for your qualities? Marriage isn't built on anti-Marxism alone. There's a whole lot of other things to consider.
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Trad Guy, when you finally meet a woman that you like, will you be the man for her? In other words- will she be attracted to you for your qualities? Marriage isn't built on anti-Marxism alone. There's a whole lot of other things to consider.
XD
Of course there are other things to consider! My only point was that she must agree with me politically (or at least consider herself on the Right) otherwise the household would be a yelling match in front of her and the children. And as I mentioned before I plan on having a large family, working two jobs to provide. I just am skeptical if working two jobs will even be enough to live on.
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The key is to work SMARTER not harder.
Do you work two jobs now in preparation? If you can't handle two jobs now how will you with a houseful of children besides?
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The key is to work SMARTER not harder.
Do you work two jobs now in preparation? If you can't handle two jobs now how will you with a houseful of children besides?
I think you mean being smart on managing your money. Well I spend money on the basic necessities like food, clothing, having a roof over your head, etc. though I admit I spend a little more on the former than everyone else since I am a protectionist and only like to shop at small businesses.
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You do have to be careful not to get entangled with the wrong woman.
Tele had really bad luck when it came to women... :wink:
Well I'm talking to one right now. I hope we get to meet face-to-face soon but I like what I see and hear from her so far.
Good luck!
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Trad Guy, yes on managing your money but I mostly meant working smarter. Also are you currently working two jobs in preparation? You need money in the bank in order to marry unless you intend to marry into riches which seems highly unlikely. $100 will only go so far no matter how frugal you are. Money only stretches so far. You're going to need $200 when you take a wife & then more when the children come. Get my drift?
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Trad Guy, yes on managing your money but I mostly meant working smarter. Also are you currently working two jobs in preparation? You need money in the bank in order to marry unless you intend to marry into riches which seems highly unlikely. $100 will only go so far no matter how frugal you are. Money only stretches so far. You're going to need $200 when you take a wife & then more when the children come. Get my drift?
I'm already saving $100 right now in the bank.
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You've already saved $100, or you save $100 out of every paycheck? It's not clear.
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You've already saved $100, or you save $100 out of every paycheck? It's not clear.
$100 out of every paycheck that I try not to touch.
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You TRY? That needs to be a given - no ifs, ands or buts!!!
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You TRY? That needs to be a given - no ifs, ands or buts!!!
Well that is a little hard to do since I am not paid a high wage. Anyway I haven't touched it in a while so I think I have $1000 saved up.
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Since you keep skirting my question about a second job, I'm going to assume that you do NOT have one.
I must go now & get busy. Enough time here. Remember - just for today you need to find some pleasant thing to talk to your grandparents about. Are they still there or have they moved already?
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Found it!
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Why dredge this loathsome paean to Americanist petite bourgeois materialism of a thread back up from its well earned grave?
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Yes, I agree that it's ridiculous that they can't find drug-free laborers locally for the oil fields in Ohio.
But that has little to do with TRAD CATHOLICS needing employment today.
You know, Catholics that uproot their family every few years to chase the latest job opportunity (or Trad mecca) are often soundly criticized on CathInfo and elsewhere. What about family? Can a family face the world *alone* with no family (neither 'his' nor 'her' family) to help out in emergencies?
In other words, sometimes a glut of jobs in a single industry in Ohio is A) not something Joe Unemployed Trad is capable of and/or B) too far away to consider.
Unless you're a high-profile professional, or you work for a large corporation and can be transferred, getting a job across the country is going to be difficult. You have to get the job while living hundreds of miles away, then move there and get a place to stay quickly.
It's one thing to foolishly stay in Detroit, MI or a similar location. These places are Ground Zero in the economic collapse. They are years ahead of the game -- in the worldwide economic collapse that is coming. They got to suffer in 2012 what most of us will have to wait until late 2014 or sometime in 2015 to experience. Something negative like "unemployment rate" is not a good thing to be #1 in the country in!
But most locations are somewhere in the middle.
And think about it -- if *everyone* chased the last remaining jobs, those abundant jobs wouldn't be there for long. To a certain extent, we need to be able to support our families *anywhere in the country* unless we all want to cram into a single state or three. Even Texas would get crowded if all 300 Million people moved here, especially when you consider that most of the state is just open ranchland with no infrastructure or jobs.
Let's put it this way: in a healthy economy, there should be jobs available in more than just a few markets. We have 300 million people needing a place to live. They can't all just crowd out a few areas.
There truly is a problem in the economy, effective today. The Stock Market is the LAST indicator of how things are doing. It's the last thing to drop, in other words. Besides, it's *very* easy to artificially prop it up via the "Plunge Protection Team" and whatnot. But the facts bear out my contention. In all past recessions/depressions, the stock market is flying high right up till D-Day.
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I wonder, if Ebola becomes the horror that everyone imagines, I wonder if I ought to stay in medical.
I suppose I could x-ray pipe welds, but that requires travel.
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Yes, I agree that it's ridiculous that they can't find drug-free laborers locally for the oil fields in Ohio.
But that has little to do with TRAD CATHOLICS needing employment today.
You know, Catholics that uproot their family every few years to chase the latest job opportunity (or Trad mecca) are often soundly criticized on CathInfo and elsewhere. What about family? Can a family face the world *alone* with no family (neither 'his' nor 'her' family) to help out in emergencies?
In other words, sometimes a glut of jobs in a single industry in Ohio is A) not something Joe Unemployed Trad is capable of and/or B) too far away to consider.
Unless you're a high-profile professional, or you work for a large corporation and can be transferred, getting a job across the country is going to be difficult. You have to get the job while living hundreds of miles away, then move there and get a place to stay quickly.
It's one thing to foolishly stay in Detroit, MI or a similar location. These places are Ground Zero in the economic collapse. They are years ahead of the game -- in the worldwide economic collapse that is coming. They got to suffer in 2012 what most of us will have to wait until late 2014 or sometime in 2015 to experience. Something negative like "unemployment rate" is not a good thing to be #1 in the country in!
But most locations are somewhere in the middle.
And think about it -- if *everyone* chased the last remaining jobs, those abundant jobs wouldn't be there for long. To a certain extent, we need to be able to support our families *anywhere in the country* unless we all want to cram into a single state or three. Even Texas would get crowded if all 300 Million people moved here, especially when you consider that most of the state is just open ranchland with no infrastructure or jobs.
Let's put it this way: in a healthy economy, there should be jobs available in more than just a few markets. We have 300 million people needing a place to live. They can't all just crowd out a few areas.
There truly is a problem in the economy, effective today. The Stock Market is the LAST indicator of how things are doing. It's the last thing to drop, in other words. Besides, it's *very* easy to artificially prop it up via the "Plunge Protection Team" and whatnot. But the facts bear out my contention. In all past recessions/depressions, the stock market is flying high right up till D-Day.
Companies in US and West are deliberately not hiring and holding onto cash they make. The nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr zionist jew led b'stards did EXACTLY the same in great depression/30's crash. The aim then was to knock out their weaker competition.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101354173
"Global companies sitting on $7 trillion cash, double 2003"
WHY - what advance knowledge do their crony-club owners have?
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If you cannot find a way to earn a living in a rich country of 300,000,000 people with 50 different states you can work in where they all speak your language, then frankly you are a waste of space.
I would agree if you modified your statement, by what you mean by work. Good discussions often start with the defining of your terms. Work can be both physical and intellectual. I tend to see many who do tough manual labor, and they disdain those who earn a living in a nice office job with air conditioning. I think this sort of simplistic view, leads to unnecessary class conflict. Take a look at Spain where over half and in some regions even more of the youngsters are unemployed. This is more true where statism is strongest, and where the only and best jobs available are government jobs. Some people have "jobs" but they have like 3 or 4 jobs, working 10-20 hours in each one. Just to make "ends" meet, and I am not sure if that person was very smart in his life choices or what precisely got him to that point. In order to earn your full living, you usually have to work full time and above. Also, even working full time and earning minimum you will need some parental assistance. So sometimes someone would sacrifice lets say a few years of using their time wisely, and then get into the work force with highly paid skills. My point is that, to just simply condemn everyone who is currently unemployed, there might be good and valid reasons why they are currently unemployed. Sometimes it would be smarter in certain cases for them to study, in some cases its the wrong choice. The point is that studying, volunteering, part time work, works of mercy and many other things do not fall under the scope of earning your living. Therefore you are putting a burden to other's that is quite frankly stupid. It is too simplistic, and does not take into account many well thought out decisions that individuals have made in their own life/goals/choices. Ultimately, you have to learn to respect what others have thought out as what they want in life, so long as it is not sinful. Then there are also those who are currently earning their living, but its in sinful employments. So folks who work at porn shops, or girls who are currently going to college and stripping. So you would need to add an additional modifier, by saying an "honest" living.
Let him who does not work, let him not eat. The Apostle is pretty clear, but there are several different types of work. There are many who are volunteers, and they help out in different ways their family etc... They might not be getting paid like a 9-5 PM job, there are also many who help out the priest in so many ways. They make his job easier of attending to souls, others teach catechism, etc... Some might even choose to work part time, and since they are in their conversion process they choose to use their free time to study the faith and think deeply about their previous life choices. Unless you are a Doctor, Lawyer etc... Most people in the world are wage earners, and they are not their own bosses so the only way in which you can earn your living is working full time.
There are other's who choose to self-study and teach themselves the skills necessary to earn a good wage. Instead of getting themselves in more debt by going to a University. If you mean people that waste their time, and do nothing productive to society, then yes they are not only a waste of space, but air, food, water.
Not everyone can earn their own full living, and pay for all of their expenses. This includes men, and also women. This of course applies even more to women, who earn lower wages then men, generally speaking. Unless of course, the woman in question is 100% dedicated to her career then she does earn the same amount as her male counterparts. Just look at the rise of folks who are force to live at home, and in Europe this is even worse. We are talking about people who are in their 40's, and so forth. Nothing wrong with that, I am not condemning them. I am just telling you that your black and white post, seems to condemn many to being a waste of space, because of how unclear you were in your post.
Think of also those folks who were in the seminary for several years, and in general are stuck in very low paying jobs after they get out. When if they would have gone instead to a secular University they would have been better off. So don't equate earning your full living, with making the right choices. For there are many, that can't earn their living precisely because they are so generous with their time.
There is also the possibility that the men in question, were never indeed raised properly. Instead they were allowed throughout their whole youth, to pretty much attend public school and play video games all day, because the parents were too lazy to do some parenting or maybe it was a single mother, who almost by necessity was forced to such a state.
The best thing to do, is to simply refrain from making uncharitable remarks :judge:. Now if you are a female who is angry, that there are no suitable bachelors because there are a bunch of men who can't even keep a job, or want to work. Then my sympathies are with you, I am sure you will find someone who is worthy of your virtue/standards. If you are not a female, and you were just making general remarks, then my apologies. I am sure there is some female out there who has similar sentiments to the original poster.
I know this is the sort of reaction that a bunch of older people have towards the younger generation. This is a bit unfair for many reasons, all the problems we have are as a result of their huge irresponsibility. We have inherited debt, before being born and the future generations are having the same problem. Immigrants used to be able to come, and if they could inhale/exhale they were given a job.
Some police departments get over 4,000 applicants and only about 50 or less are accepted. Many of the good jobs, which most people obviously want are extremely competitive. There is also the problem if you have a degree, and you want to work at McDonald's they won't tend to hire you because they need to pay you even more because you are overqualified. Then there is the secondary problem even if you manage to get hired, you have to pay back your debt and earning such a low wage you will never do that within a reasonable amount of time. So sometimes it can be better to wait a bit, and throw your net a bit wider and see what you catch, which usually means some waiting period. So that some people could be stuck in a limbo type of situation for a few months, even up to a year. Meanwhile they transition into the workforce after graduating, or after being relieved from their previous job.
As can be seen to anyone who has read my post, it is clearly not so black and white. Sometimes older people can be real snobs, and idealize how things were back then. When you go back and think about it, its illogical, emotional and riddled with so many problems.
Many previous industries are being destroyed also, so that even future PhD students and even low skill work will be unemployed in the economy of the future. Where many jobs will be taken away essentially by someone who eliminated your task by automating it with some sort of algorithm. Just look at what capitalist are currently doing in response to McDonald's workers who are striking that want higher wages. They are going to replace them with robots, who are much cheaper. They can get higher quality meat into their buns, better service, more burgers flipped, and ultimately lower prices to the consumer. Some jobs, quite frankly should not even be there. Think of all the previous industries that were created and are no longer there. The milk man, alarm clock guy who would knock on your window, elevator guy, door men, journalist jobs (an industry you do not want to be in right now), grocery bagger, gasoline pumper guy and so many jobs that in the end added little to no utility. Rightfully so, and good that this wasted human energy input could be put into better use.
I could go on, but I think I have said enough.
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What about unemployed people who do not work for medical reasons? Are they a waste of space too?
There are legitimate medical reasons that would disable a person to work. However, I notice a trend here in America that almost everything has become a medical reason to fill for disability and justify their plain SLOTH. A considerable amount of people in warfare in this country just abuse the system.
I agree with Greg that people in America (he was referring to England) but here applies as well, have no clue what real poverty is like and take everything for granted.
I know a good acquaintance of the family, he has 5 kids and the guy is true genius. I really do mean, real genius. The guy was taking differential equations as a freshman in high school! Had a 4.0 GPA (in every single class he has ever taken, including grammar school, high school), extreme intellectual abilities but due to his womanizing and bad choices he was really reduced for half of his adult life to work as a manager in fast food restaurants. So ability sometimes has nothing to do with it, and neither gifts. Sometimes because of circuмstances you are really reduced to poverty, and there is little that can be done. Many bad choices, sure, but some of those previous bad choices can really make it near impossible to earn a living without having recourse to the welfare state. Thanks be to God, I have never had to rely on the state, but my point is that I completely understand when someone has to recourse to that.
He earned more money gathering up welfare benefits put together, then working for an honest living. You have to remember he has to feed 5 mouth's as a single dad, and all his girlfriends are even worse then he is. His parents are truly the worst human beings you can think of, alcoholics, abusive and trash in every single sense of the word. For him the choice was pretty clear, take the welfare, instead of working an honest living. If he would work, they could charge him with a crime.
Also I did not read all the comments, so my apologies. I also realized that this was the post of someone else, so I will have some catching up to do.
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A Traditional Catholic should never, EVER, engage in "job snobbery". Honest work is honest work.
Ggreg is a wise worldling. He really does focus on the world a little too much. However, having said that, his advice is very good advice and most people would benefit if they read his posts without reading too much into it. Ggreg isn't speaking about the status of someone's soul but he is highlighting a deficiency. Men must either be employed in some manner, or seeking employment, or preparing themselves for employment. The employment could be self-employed or a company man. The only criteria being that it be honest work and not something that would be a cause of temptation.
Men who are unemployed should really take a good hard look at themselves and make sure that they are doing the right thing. An examination of conscience is always in order. If someone is so-called unemployable, they need to honestly tackle their deficiencies to them become employable. It's not hard, but it does take work. And time too.
None of this is in effect for the ladies out there.
Excellent summary! I completely agree with this, it answered all my initial observations I laid out in my previous posts. I bolded the most important sentence, is that ultimately we must do everything in our power to get employed. God will know the difference, whether you really honestly did try or did not.
Most important thing for marriage suitability is the ability to have had stable employment for two years. Most important problem in a marriage is if the husband can't find work, this is truly the breakdown of the family. Work is extremely essential for a man, who lives in the world. If you are a priest or a religious, your work is laid out for you. You are to be a pastor of souls or to be a full emulation of the evangelical vows of chastity, poverty and obedience. There is lots of work in the monastic life, and it is hard work, it never stops.
Yes, I think those people reading ggreg's posting, should instead of being offended. Take into account that he offers very good worldly wisdom. So far from what I have read, it looks like very good advice.
Problem is with lots of jobs out there, there is no sort of job security many times in the private sector. Its sometimes nice and cozy in the public sector with all the benefits it entails etc... When it comes to family, job security is the most important element. For it is better to be paid less, and be secured a job for a long time. Then to earn a higher wage and potentially be kicked out at any moment. This danger of course could be reduced, by saving your money in case of a bad case scenario.
Schools really should include courses in personal financing and fiscal responsibility. I learned things the hard way, but it can make a huge difference down the years.
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I know a good acquaintance of the family, he has 5 kids and the guy is true genius. I really do mean, real genius. The guy was taking differential equations as a freshman in high school! Had a 4.0 GPA (in every single class he has ever taken, including grammar school, high school), extreme intellectual abilities but due to his womanizing and bad choices he was really reduced for half of his adult life to work as a manager in fast food restaurants. So ability sometimes has nothing to do with it, and neither gifts. Sometimes because of circuмstances you are really reduced to poverty, and there is little that can be done. Many bad choices, sure, but some of those previous bad choices can really make it near impossible to earn a living without having recourse to the welfare state. Thanks be to God, I have never had to rely on the state, but my point is that I completely understand when someone has to recourse to that.
He earned more money gathering up welfare benefits put together, then working for an honest living. You have to remember he has to feed 5 mouth's as a single dad, and all his girlfriends are even worse then he is. His parents are truly the worst human beings you can think of, alcoholics, abusive and trash in every single sense of the word. For him the choice was pretty clear, take the welfare, instead of working an honest living. If he would work, they could charge him with a crime.
Also I did not read all the comments, so my apologies. I also realized that this was the post of someone else, so I will have some catching up to do.
Wow -- I wouldn't want to be at that man's judgment.
Consider the parable of the Ten Talents. Now picture the Master giving a man Twenty or Fifty talents, and instead of the man burying his talents he gives them to women of ill repute, or trades them for moments of pleasure. Now how do you suppose the Master in the parable would react?
I would be terrified to be in that man's position. God didn't give him that level of gifts so he could experience maximum venereal pleasure! It sounds like he has received from the Lord great gifts that are rarely given -- what an accounting he will have to make of them!